View Full Version : DAC upgrade
I've been thinking about upgrading my DAC recently. It's a Chord 2Qute. I've been very happy with it but I've had it a few years and technology marches on to inflict gas. I'm looking up to £2,000 new or (ideally) go the 2nd hand route. Looking at the Hugo 2, Mytek Brooklyn, RME ADI2. Any experience or suggestions?
Try and have a listen to some and compare your DAC, as they may not be that different.
I have an RME, and was thinking of upgrading, but not being able to hear the new DAC before Purchase has put me right off.
For sure. I wouldn't buy 'blind' spending that kind of cash. Good advice.
Another consideration is a Soekris 2541
DAC technology has not changed in decades despite what you might read in the marketing bumph, I would save the money to get better speakers or do room treatment. The 2Qute has no audible issues, it does D to A perfectly which is all it needs to do.
Lawrence001
21-11-2022, 00:19
Do you mean once they could get up to 24/192 plus DSD? USB implementations have certainly improved in the last 12 or so the first Xmos one was a game changer for me.
Do you mean once they could get up to 24/192 plus DSD? USB implementations have certainly improved in the last 12 or so the first Xmos one was a game changer for me.
Those developments are more than 20 years old though. (except some USB variants but I wasn't counting USB as DAC technology).
Lawrence001
21-11-2022, 23:44
I'm not sure 20 year old DAC chips went up to 24/192 I think most went up to 24/96 for DVD compatibility. SACDs couldn't be output digitally so DSD wasn't a popular medium then either (although Denon had a Denon link that got round it somehow, I wonder if it was PCM resampling rather than true DSD format).
I'm not sure 20 year old DAC chips went up to 24/192 I think most went up to 24/96 for DVD compatibility. SACDs couldn't be output digitally so DSD wasn't a popular medium then either (although Denon had a Denon link that got round it somehow, I wonder if it was PCM resampling rather than true DSD format).
DVD-A would do 24/192 in stereo that's 22 years ago now. I still have a couple of them.
Lawrence001
22-11-2022, 08:00
Yeah but I thought initially they didn't output digital the same as SACD due to copyright?
We're probably arguing over detail here but it would be useful to see a list of consumer DACs with years and specs if such a thing exists. I wasn't aware of 24/192 DACs until closer to 2010 but then I wasn't a hifi geek until about then. Think I got my first DAC then, an arcam delta 250/500 combo.
first i remember was the calyx around 2012. but i admit i could be well out
Lawrence001
22-11-2022, 08:48
Interesting debate here from 2009
https://www.head-fi.org/threads/isnt-it-the-time-for-24-192-usb-dac.448655/
Yeah but I thought initially they didn't output digital the same as SACD due to copyright?
We're probably arguing over detail here but it would be useful to see a list of consumer DACs with years and specs if such a thing exists. I wasn't aware of 24/192 DACs until closer to 2010 but then I wasn't a hifi geek until about then. Think I got my first DAC then, an arcam delta 250/500 combo.
You could only get analogue out from them same as with SACD players. SACD got cracked with the PS3, I don't think anyone bothered with cracking DVD-A as it died a death pretty fast.
Anyways when I was talking about DAC technology I meant delta-sigma, R-2R, multibit, all of which are decades old tech. Higher sampling rates don't have any benefits for playback so are irrelevant unless you can only get the recording (or mastering) you want at the higher sampling rate.
From the point of view of audibility DACs were pretty much perfect from the late 1980s. Meausred performance has improved and you can now get very good measuring stand alone units very cheaply but a better spec on paper doesn't translate into better sound, the limitation for digital has long since been our hearing ability - and the recordings of course.
That's why i wouldn't recommend spending thousands on a DAC in the hope of getting an upgrade in SQ. My DAC is by far the cheapest component in my system.
I appreciate others have a different view on this, but that's mine FWIW.
Pigmy Pony
22-11-2022, 19:22
So does that mean there's no audible advantage to using an offboard DAC with your CD player over just using the player's own DAC? When recently using a separate DAC with my CD player (Marantz CD6006) I'm convinced I could hear some detail in the music which I'm sure I hadn't noticed before. Not light & day difference like a change of speakers, but perceptible to me. And my hearing is pretty crap.
So does that mean there's no audible advantage to using an offboard DAC with your CD player over just using the player's own DAC? When recently using a separate DAC with my CD player (Marantz CD6006) I'm convinced I could hear some detail in the music which I'm sure I hadn't noticed before. Not light & day difference like a change of speakers, but perceptible to me. And my hearing is pretty crap.
Some stand alone DACs are designed to have a 'sonic signature'. Also you must have heard details you have never noticed before even when nothing has changed in your system? I know I have.
Pigmy Pony
22-11-2022, 20:14
Some stand alone DACs are designed to have a 'sonic signature'. Also you must have heard details you have never noticed before even when nothing has changed in your system? I know I have.
Well I suppose that's possible. The only way to be sure would be a blind test. I'd be shit at one of them and wouldn't necessarily trust what I'm hearing, but if and when you ditch your slot loading transport, will you replace with a regular all in one player? Because you could do a blind test then. Or get Oli on the case - he has hearing like a bat apparently.
This is something potentially important for those of us financially challenged.
Firebottle
23-11-2022, 07:30
You and Mrs P were hearing the difference Steve, greater clarity for sure.
I don't agree with Martin that there are no differences, how the digital filtering is implemented in delta-sigma plus the audio output stages can all make a difference.
The digital conversion methods haven't changed but other things have like the two just mentioned.
Lawrence001
23-11-2022, 10:15
I forgot about the various filters available now they are subtle but can make a difference to fatigue or enjoyment.
Simplest example forgetting anything to do with the digital side would be if the DAC has a better output stage than the CD player. Seems like a lot of money to spend just for that, so maybe modding the output stage of a nice CDP is an option. Eg. lampizator!
Certainly food for thought guys. Thanks.
awkwardbydesign
24-11-2022, 10:52
If the Brooklyn Mytek is on your radar, I compared one with the Benchmark DAC3 HGC and thought the Benchmark was more neutral. It also has an analogue pre and good headphone amp in it. The other one I really liked was the Audiobyte Black Dragon, but that definitely had its own sound, very "analogue" and valve like, IMO. And the Benchmark does so much more. It doesn't look very sexy, being aimed at the pro market, but the performance sold it to me.
So I bought the Benchmark.
By a strange coincidence I am selling it, not for a better sound, but I need to simplify my system so my wife can use it without confusion; CDP with a good internal DAC, and integrated amp with internal phono board. I had to pay a lot to keep the quality, so bought Accuphase. Even then, the DAC has colouration, but of a kind I enjoy.
Rush2112
24-11-2022, 12:05
Hi David,
I'm not familiar with your current DAC but have heard a couple of Chord DAC's in the past such as the Hugo and wasn't disappointed with them so is a pre-owned Hugo an option ? or are they still a bit above your budget ? I have had several great DAC's in the past Meridian 203 DAC7 and the phenomenal Pink Triangle DaCapo in three box configuration of Cardinal, DaCapo and DC ( A combination where the whole was significantly greater than the sum of its parts! ). Currently I have a Wadia 321 and Lyngdorf CD1 as transport running in 192k mode ( Again a combination significantly better than the sum of its parts ) and the results are on a par with the likes of PS Audio Perfectwave, although not able to handle streaming.
So what I guess I am saying is the "not obvious route" is always worth a visit.
https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/v3k7giobnPYJambJiHxR6o.jpg
https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5a221dde8a02c7c08b09f38a/1522854988246-EG2SFVJM9797PQK14JO0/wadia+di322+High+angle+black.jpg?format=1000w
Thanks for the heads up @awkwardbydesign. I'll try to give the Benchmark a listen. Hi @Rush2112, great album btw! The Hugo2 is definitely on my radar. Hoping to hear one of those soon.
awkwardbydesign
25-11-2022, 10:14
If you can hear an Audiobyte Black Dragon you might prefer that. To be honest, I did, but the functionality of the DAC3 (USB input and preamp use)plus neutrality swung it for me. The Accuphase I now have reminds me of the Black Dragon, and it suits my tastes.
If you can hear an Audiobyte Black Dragon you might prefer that. To be honest, I did, but the functionality of the DAC3 (USB input and preamp use)plus neutrality swung it for me. The Accuphase I now have reminds me of the Black Dragon, and it suits my tastes.
Not heard of the Black Dragon. I'll give some research, thx.
Someone mentioned the PS Audio dac?
Theres a MkII version of the Perfectwave Dac out soon, worth watching the second hand market for those selling theirs.
If you can stretch to 3.5Kish its worth it,
Plenty of upgrade potential above stock for not a lot of cost too.
Someone mentioned the PS Audio dac?
Theres a MkII version of the Perfectwave Dac out soon, worth watching the second hand market for those selling theirs.
If you can stretch to 3.5Kish its worth it,
Plenty of upgrade potential above stock for not a lot of cost too.
I think my limit is going to be around the £2k.
Trickle-down technology is producing some great value units and I have spent a lot of time reading up on DACs. The industry seems to be taking cognisance of the fact that addressing EMI and RFI issues, providing excellent power supplies (some including 100 year old technology such as choke input) lots of regulation and the best output stages make a difference, With the lower noise floor resulting from these measures differences can most certainly be heard. Your listed gear will not mask the upgrade.
The debate between delta-sigma and R2R will continue and is only a small part of the whole. Implementation is paramount. A lot of fuss is made over the ESS ES90xxx delta-sigma chips not necessarily because they sound good but because they are hyped up and thought to sound good by Joe Average. So we have a plethora of cheap Chi-fi DACs flooding the market sporting the latest ESS chips with the uninformed masses believing they are getting the latest and greatest.
A good DAC needs to get the tempo, tone and tune sorted for it to make music and to this end I have come to appreciate what Abbas is doing.
https://www.abbasaudio.com/
The thread below is a long but enlightening view on some of his products which equal or better other units costing many times more. This is a must read IMO, comparing Abbas units to some of the more well known expensive attempts like SW1X and Audio Note.
The SW1X DACs are a spin-off apparently from the Abbas ones. The two used to work together then parted ways. The SW1X are in a higher price bracket.
https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/abbas-dac-2-1-se.31754/
I think he has a model in your price range. Also provides DIY modules which is what I am now considering.
He is based in Ukraine and according to the thread mentioned is still alive and well.
awkwardbydesign
28-11-2022, 20:08
Not heard of the Black Dragon. I'll give some research, thx.
https://www.hifipig.com/audiobyte-black-dragon-dac/
Thx for the heads up @sailor and @awkwardbydesign. Looks like I've got some reading to do ;)
ive got a hugo2 sat in its box since upgraded to TT2. If you decide to go that route could make me an offer. Is currently sat there as hoping to use as part ex for a m-scaler sometime in new year but still umming n ahhing :)
Hi Scorps, thanks for the offer. I've recently acquired a Hegel 390 which has a very good internal dac. I'm going to live with it for a while before making any decisions. Thanks everyone for your suggestions and contributions, much appreciated. I have heard a Matrix Audio Element X recently but could notice any improvement over the Hegel. So I suspect (and hope) that I'll be sticking with the Hegel for a while.
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