View Full Version : 40 Years of the CD
Can you believe it has been 40 years since the CD was unleashed on the public? I distinctly remember working in a HIFI business at the time selling Panasonic, Sony, Bang and Olufson and Quad gear when the CD came out and we sold some of the very first CD players including the first Philips CD players one of which I purchased myself along with my first CD - Brothers in Arms.
Those last 40 years were a rollercoaster of digital audio and like many of us on this forum i bought so many CD players over that period I have actually lost both count and memory of all of them. As the technology "improved"?? I moved on believing things were getting better and in many cases the sound did improve as some of the earlier errors were corrected!:) CD became the main source for me from about 1983 to 2015 and I bought boxes and boxes of those nasty plastic things. I recon 50% of my CD cases broke!
Over those years I felt CD was the tail that wagged the dog as my other HIFI gear was usually considered with the main source being CD and to be honest I tried to ameliorate the sound of CD to make it more pleasant to listen too. This cost me a fortune of those 40 years but in the end I gave up and just accepted CD sounded well like CD. In 2015 I took a 180 degree turn and ended back to where I started with vinyl but that is another story.
I remember standing as I did all day in the Hifi shop listening to all the CD players as they came in and back in 1983 they all had one thing in common, they sounded very clear and very bright. I remember someone telling me that because digital was so perfect I would not be used to the sound and my hearing had to adjust. I believed the bullshit and carried on believing I was listening to a perfect sound no matter how hard it was to actually listen too or enjoy.
As you can imagine selling those early machines back then was one of the biggest jolts of interest the hifi world had ever really known. The technology was amazing and sexy, like something from another universe compared with vinyl! There was almost no comparison apart from both were round discs. CD was shiny and silver, Vinyl was black and boring. CDs could be popped in your pocket and took up way less storage space and they could be spread with marmalade and they still worked. You could open a new vinyl record and cough on it and its quiet days of operation were over!
CD players were electronic marvels, You would go to a shop and just press the drawer opening button for hours and have to eventually be dragged away by the staff. The precision and simplicity of a CD player with remote control was just so nice back then. In your mind you thought of vinyl and that process and equipment and it made you shudder thinking about the effort. So slam dunk, CD was not only the most amazing technology in town it was the future for audio for many years to come and vinyl was going in the skip!
I bought into this big time and remember buying even more copies of hifi mags which covered every twist and turn of the technology. I got my head around lazers and bits ,101010 and brick wall filters and oversampling and error correction and DA convertors and then jitter. Ah this little nugget was to eventually become the achilles heal for CD in my world back in 2014 when I started to understand and put together File Based digital audio - yet another story.
I think ultimately when I look back on my 40 years of CD I came to accept it as a medium for music playback and embraced it fully even though for me there was always a nagging doubt which resulted in lots of alternative systems in my household. The perfect sound of CD was always perfect until the next perfect sound for ever CD player arrived!
Alas this technology for me came to and end in 2015 so 7 years short of its 40th birthday and now it resides collecting dust in the HIFI graveyard in the loft. One day I might get it back down and give it a spin for memories sake and tell my grandchildren this is what we used to play music back in my day. By then they will have some new alien technology that beams perfect sound for ever straight into their brain without any need to buy discs or equipment. Oh yes wake up grandad they already have that, its called streaming!
What were you memories of CD?:)
Enossification
07-10-2022, 08:43
My first CD player was a Yamaha CDX1. I mean, how could they fail ? Silver discs that shone a rainbow of colour. Perfect sound forever. A direct digital copy of the master tape.
My first ever purchase was Lionel Richie 'Can't slow down' bought because I had to have something to play and there was bugger all to choose from.
Three years later the Yamaha was gone to be replaced with a Cambridge CD2 and all of it failings.
Anyhow, without them I wouldn't be here now with the memories.
great read jim...
Cheers Grant.
My first CD player was a Yamaha CDX1. I mean, how could they fail ? Silver discs that shone a rainbow of colour. Perfect sound forever. A direct digital copy of the master tape.
My first ever purchase was Lionel Richie 'Can't slow down' bought because I had to have something to play and there was bugger all to choose from.
Three years later the Yamaha was gone to be replaced with a Cambridge CD2 and all of it failings.
Anyhow, without them I wouldn't be here now with the memories.
Yeah lots of memories. Just looking at your music choice on your forum page Shaun and I like most of the stuff you have listed there so maybe we are from the same era?
Firebottle
07-10-2022, 09:43
As far as CD is concerned I still think it was a brilliant co-invention by Philips and Sony.
If you go into the technicalities of exactly how it is recorded on the disk there is some very clever thinking, not just to provide error correction.
Most people probably think the bits are just read off in sequence to reconstruct the music, but as an example the laser cannot read a continuous string of zeros so data manipulation is required.
The bits on the disc may be 'perfect forever' but unfortunately the digital manipulation required in D to A conversion using Delta Sigma is flawed.
Some of the alternative techniques brought out for conversion, such as R2R (resistor ladder) were limited in bit depth because getting the required precision at low levels was expensive to achieve on silicon chips. That said some of the earlier chips could provide excellent sound.
I think Delta Sigma became the almost de-facto approach due to the plethora of chip manufacturers and the economies of scale, so we were nearly all stuck with the 'digital artefacts' sound.
Given recent developments in R2R with very accurate discrete resistor ladders from a few manufacturers has I think transformed the sound now possible from CD.
I am gobsmacked now at how phenominal most of my CD collection now sounds, given the proviso of being recorded well.
No problem if you want to have a listen James.
walpurgis
07-10-2022, 09:58
CD has been my main source since the mid eighties. I still kept a record deck though.
After many CD players I bought a new Meridian 507 back in 2003 and still have it and I also use a Trichord Research 'Digital Turntable' transport, plus two Pioneer PD-S505 Precision players. Many DACs have been used, but I settled on my Monarchy Audio M22B and Musical Fidelity V-DAC, I'm happy with the results and don't feel the need to change anything.
I was fairly late to cd i guess. maybe about 88//89. had a denon and my brother had a jvc. It was great that you didnt get the noises ascosiated with vinyl and you could program tracks to play etc, but it used to be slightly 'just not right' in those days. But it improved and its pretty decent now and without the 'palaver' of vinyl.
Nowadays i rip them to pc and play via Roon which i find just fine.
CD has been my main source since the mid eighties. I still kept a record deck though.
After many CD players I bought a new Meridian 507 back in 2003 and still have it and I also use a Trichord Research 'Digital Turntable' transport, plus two Pioneer PD-S505 Precision players. Many DACs have been used, but I settled on my Monarchy Audio M22B and Musical Fidelity V-DAC, I'm happy with the results and don't feel the need to change anything.
Do you use a DAC with the Meridian 507 or just on its own?
I was fairly late to cd i guess. maybe about 88//89. had a denon and my brother had a jvc. It was great that you didnt get the noises ascosiated with vinyl and you could program tracks to play etc, but it used to be slightly 'just not right' in those days. But it improved and its pretty decent now and without the 'palaver' of vinyl.
Nowadays i rip them to pc and play via Roon which i find just fine.
I think thats a good way to go FBA.
As far as CD is concerned I still think it was a brilliant co-invention by Philips and Sony.
If you go into the technicalities of exactly how it is recorded on the disk there is some very clever thinking, not just to provide error correction.
Most people probably think the bits are just read off in sequence to reconstruct the music, but as an example the laser cannot read a continuous string of zeros so data manipulation is required.
The bits on the disc may be 'perfect forever' but unfortunately the digital manipulation required in D to A conversion using Delta Sigma is flawed.
Some of the alternative techniques brought out for conversion, such as R2R (resistor ladder) were limited in bit depth because getting the required precision at low levels was expensive to achieve on silicon chips. That said some of the earlier chips could provide excellent sound.
I think Delta Sigma became the almost de-facto approach due to the plethora of chip manufacturers and the economies of scale, so we were nearly all stuck with the 'digital artefacts' sound.
Given recent developments in R2R with very accurate discrete resistor ladders from a few manufacturers has I think transformed the sound now possible from CD.
I am gobsmacked now at how phenominal most of my CD collection now sounds, given the proviso of being recorded well.
No problem if you want to have a listen James.
I have heard some great sounding DACs using FPGA and R2R which have both moved digital audio on I feel from CD player based systems but I can understand some folk still holding out for CD ( convenience and large collection of CDs) and I also appreciate the alternative FBA via DAC route. Interestingly some folk have been down the licorice allsorts DAC route and come back to CD and found it can still sound very good especially older models?:scratch:
Enossification
07-10-2022, 13:52
Yeah lots of memories. Just looking at your music choice on your forum page Shaun and I like most of the stuff you have listed there so maybe we are from the same era?
Oh Christ you poor bugger.
I decided to edit this post only because it means you are probably getting on in years. There is no 'poor bugger' about being my age when music was very probably at its peak. It may mean that you grew up in a day when people got around and LISTENED to music instead of bloody talking over it ! Vocalists sounded like humans and not Mickey Mouse robots and Gilmour created the best guitar solo of all time.
In fact, weren't we bloody lucky.
Enossification
07-10-2022, 13:57
I'm very satisfied with the sound of CD right now. That wasn't always the case though. In the past the best I ever achieved was with my then Meridian 200/203.
I still have the ability to listen to vinyl. Long may it live !
walpurgis
07-10-2022, 13:59
Do you use a DAC with the Meridian 507 or just on its own?
Either way actually. The 507 sounds very good on its own, as do the 505s, but the DACs add an interesting alternative take on things. Currently running the Trichord through the V-DAC. The little V-DAC is very good, there's an interesting review here if anybody is interested: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-teardown-of-musical-fidelity-v-dac.9825/
Oh Christ you poor bugger.
I decided to edit this post only because it means you are probably getting on in years. There is no 'poor bugger' about being my age when music was very probably at its peak. It may mean that you grew up in a day when people got around and LISTENED to music instead of bloody talking over it ! Vocalists sounded like humans and not Mickey Mouse robots and Gilmour created the best guitar solo of all time.
In fact, weren't we bloody lucky.
Very true Shaun, so much music nowadays relies on technology rather than pure musical ability. Only time I saw Gilmour was playing The Wall at Earls court in 1979 and 1980. Not a bad gig!:lol:
Firebottle
07-10-2022, 16:32
I have heard some great sounding DACs using FPGA and R2R which have both moved digital audio on I feel from CD player based systems but I can understand some folk still holding out for CD ( convenience and large collection of CDs) and I also appreciate the alternative FBA via DAC route. Interestingly some folk have been down the licorice allsorts DAC route and come back to CD and found it can still sound very good especially older models?:scratch:
Just using a CD transport into an R2R really shows how good the original 16/44.1 format is. I have the CD's and can now really enjoy them.
Some of the older models of CD player, of a certain era, were designed without compromise and do sound better than a lot of the more mainstream units.
1986 or 87 I remember queueing up in WH Smith to buy an album (might have been Floyd 'Momentary Lapse') and seeing the CD display by the checkout. The vinyl was £5.99 and the CDs were £13.99. How things have changed.
A couple of years later had the chance to compare some vinyl with CD back to back. Zep IV and The The 'Infected'. Decided vinyl was a lot better so didn't buy a CD player until 1995 when it started getting difficult to buy vinyl and some albums were not even released on vinyl.
Was not until much later when I got together a properly sorted system that I realised that 'Pure, Perfect Sound Forever' was actually true. Now I exclusively use CD. I have some old cd players from the 1980s, they sound excellent.
I now realise the poor sound from CD I heard back in 1990 when doing those comparisons with vinyl were system issues, nothing to do with the players, which were pretty much perfect right from the off. CD was actually too good for a lot of those 1980s systems.
Apart from the fact that the vinyl I bought in the 1990s is now worth quite a bit I very much regret not learning more about how audio replay actually works earlier in life, and not moving to digital much sooner.
1986 or 87 I remember queueing up in WH Smith to buy an album (might have been Floyd 'Momentary Lapse') and seeing the CD display by the checkout. The vinyl was £5.99 and the CDs were £13.99. How things have changed.
A couple of years later had the chance to compare some vinyl with CD back to back. Zep IV and The The 'Infected'. Decided vinyl was a lot better so didn't buy a CD player until 1995 when it started getting difficult to buy vinyl and some albums were not even released on vinyl.
Was not until much later when I got together a properly sorted system that I realised that 'Pure, Perfect Sound Forever' was actually true. Now I exclusively use CD. I have some old cd players from the 1980s, they sound excellent.
I now realise the poor sound from CD I heard back in 1990 when doing those comparisons with vinyl were system issues, nothing to do with the players, which were pretty much perfect right from the off. CD was actually too good for a lot of those 1980s systems.
Apart from the fact that the vinyl I bought in the 1990s is now worth quite a bit I very much regret not learning more about how audio replay actually works earlier in life, and not moving to digital much sooner.
Some of the earlier 80s-90s CD players seem to be making a comeback and after the DAC bonanza of the last few years excited a lot of audiophiles there seems to be a re appraisal of earlier CD players and CD in general. I think the HiRez red herring/marketing campaign has run into the bunker and there seems to be an acceptance of 16 bit CD quality.
To be honest after watching the Digital audio market over the last 40 years I am not sure if there is much more that can be done to advance it. DACs seem to go round in circles with an ever increasing level of hyper detail or variations on a digital soundscape.
I am not surprised plenty of folk seem to be just happy to stay with CD and use old technology.:)
although i had a player and a few cds, i was still very much vinyl orientated when i started working for a company, repairing video and cd juke boxes. this got me more into cd as i could pick up cds cheap. by the way these american jukes were very good and the sound off them was fabulous. mind you they cost a lot of money.
but that job probably started me on the rd to digital proper. some were reporposed vinyl jukes that just had a pair of sony multi players in and a computer to run them, up to 100 disc carosel state of art machines(some of which had video capability too), but they were damn good. mostly sony speakers we used too by way.
Some of the earlier 80s-90s CD players seem to be making a comeback and after the DAC bonanza of the last few years excited a lot of audiophiles there seems to be a re appraisal of earlier CD players and CD in general. I think the HiRez red herring/marketing campaign has run into the bunker and there seems to be an acceptance of 16 bit CD quality.
To be honest after watching the Digital audio market over the last 40 years I am not sure if there is much more that can be done to advance it. DACs seem to go round in circles with an ever increasing level of hyper detail or variations on a digital soundscape.
I am not surprised plenty of folk seem to be just happy to stay with CD and use old technology.:)
If it wasn't for the crappy cases. That's the only issue I have with it. Just bought a box of 25 new jewel cases to replace all my busted ones. 25 is probably not enough. I bet some of them will be broken in a few weeks. I mean I'm careful but the things just fall apart in my hands.
I think DACs have been a done deal since late 1990s. The early ones were not as good on paper as what we have now, but I am very doubtful that they actually sounded much worse than the latest 32 bit DACs. I know I can hook up my old Marantz CD player from 1984 and it sounds wonderful. Really sweet and open. It didn't back in 1990!
Older cases were much more substantial tbh. Just cheap tat for most now
Stranraer
07-10-2022, 18:27
Very enjoyable read. Thanks.
My first memory was the famous Tomorrow's World show where they poured honey on the CD to prove it was virtually impossiblee to damage. I'm sure they recently confesssed the obvious, that it was a scam.
My first purchase was a JVC seperates system with a 10 or 12 band graphic equaliser and lots of LEDs.
I thought I ws in hifi heaven but thinking back to the speakers and virtually see through wires, I'm pretty sure it would be a hard listen now.
As an incentive the JVC came with three free CDs, but I remember going through the limited selection endlessly trying and failing to find some music I really liked. Ended up with INXS, Pretenders and Steve Winwood, none of which I would have bought under different circumstances.
Very enjoyable read. Thanks.
My first memory was the famous Tomorrow's World show where they poured honey on the CD to prove it was virtually impossiblee to damage. I'm sure they recently confesssed the obvious, that it was a scam.
My first purchase was a JVC seperates system with a 10 or 12 band graphic equaliser and lots of LEDs.
I thought I ws in hifi heaven but thinking back to the speakers and virtually see through wires, I'm pretty sure it would be a hard listen now.
As an incentive the JVC came with three free CDs, but I remember going through the limited selection endlessly trying and failing to find some music I really liked. Ended up with INXS, Pretenders and Steve Winwood, none of which I would have bought under different circumstances.
JVC - a great name from the past. I had one of their high end tape decks and thought it was great back then.
Stranraer
07-10-2022, 19:07
JVC - a great name from the past. I had one of their high end tape decks and thought it was great back then.
Mine was a long way from High End. Guessing it would have cost me about £350 in the late 80s, or nearly two months wages.
What an excellent thread and a good excuse to wander down memory lane.
Is it really 40 years? Not sure when I first heard a CD player, but it was a Philips CD100. A top loader (think they all were at the start), 14 bit 4 x oversampling, and it sounded awful: flat, 'grey' with no depth. Later I listened to a CD101 (which was essentially the same as the 100, apart from a different laser mechanism), which was a little better, but not enough for me to start buying CDs.
It wasn't until the advent of the CD104B did I think "I can live with this". A front loader of compact dimensions with a reassuringly heavy case. By now the price of CDs was starting to come down in price - but an important consequence was the selling off of LPs for a couple of quid each in newsagents, supermarkets and even filling stations. :)
The 104B stayed in use for several years, before it started to develop faults. The compact nature of the player meant a high circuit and component density, and with hundreds of solder joints, some of them failed with heat. In its place, I was loaned a 150 (or it might have been a 160 - I can't remember) - but oh, what a change from the heavy metal construction of the 104 to the lightweight, largely plastic, construction of the 150/160. It spurred me on to find something more substantial in the form of a Sony CDP XB720, later to be replaced with a Sony CDP XB930: both front loaders with a truly silent drawer action.
Now I use a Mark Levinson 390S player or a Studer-Revox C221, but I still have the Sony as a 'backup' (and for when I want to listen via headphones).
CDs haven't supplanted LPs in my collection (roughly 2,000 in each format), and I have to confess I tend to play CDs more often as they play for a longer time and don't need the pampering required of LPs.
Stranraer
07-10-2022, 20:53
[QUOTE=Barry;1329473]Now I use a Mark Levinson 390S player or a Studer-Revox C221,
I'm listening to LCD Soundsystem on my revived 390S as I write. What a machine :hairmetal:
a Sony CDP XB720, later to be replaced with a Sony CDP XB930: both front loaders with a truly silent drawer action.
Now I use a Mark Levinson 390S player or a Studer-Revox C221, but I still have the Sony as a 'backup' (and for when I want to listen via headphones).
all lovely players - build quality, pleasure of use. I regret selling my XB930.
Pigmy Pony
08-10-2022, 06:45
I don't know how you can remember all the model numbers. All I know was that I had three Sonys and one TEAC. The TEAC was actually a DVD player but worked a treat for many years.
I don't know how you can remember all the model numbers. All I know was that I had three Sonys and one TEAC. The TEAC was actually a DVD player but worked a treat for many years.
I know a few folk who have used DVD players with great results especially SONY models.
I know a chap who used to sell some very high quality valve amps years ago and he would bring with him a "CD" player which was from the top of a cheap AIWA tower system. It was the cheapest piece of c@*p you could imagine but he used it as a CD player to demonstrate the amps he was selling and it sounded stunning.
I know a few folk who have used DVD players with great results especially SONY models.
I know a chap who used to sell some very high quality valve amps years ago and he would bring with him a "CD" player which was from the top of a cheap AIWA tower system. It was the cheapest piece of c@*p you could imagine but he used it as a CD player to demonstrate the amps he was selling and it sounded stunning.
my first experience of hearing CD sound good was a friend's portable Technics player hooked up to his rig via the headphone socket.
walpurgis
08-10-2022, 07:10
I have a dinky little Duraband DVD player for the wife to play CDs on in the other room. Sounds fine to me and the toploading is fun. It feeds a small Advent NXT 2.1 sub/sat system and it all sounds much better than its appearance might suggest :).
walpurgis
08-10-2022, 07:24
My first CD player was a small toploading Toshiba XR-J9. I bought it mid eighties and had it for many years, then gave it to a friend who carried on using it for years too.
https://i.ibb.co/0mBmscj/Screen-Shot-10-08-22-at-08-15-AM.png (https://ibb.co/YPDP037)
Enossification
08-10-2022, 07:38
I tend to play CDs more often as they play for a longer time and don't need the pampering required of LPs.
One of compact discs best features in my opinion. Can you imagine a two disc vinyl set with just three tracks on each side :eyebrows: Surely not ?
My first CD player was a small toploading Toshiba XR-J9. I bought it mid eighties and had it for many years, then gave it to a friend who carried on using it for years too.
https://i.ibb.co/0mBmscj/Screen-Shot-10-08-22-at-08-15-AM.png (https://ibb.co/YPDP037)
That's cool. Never seen one before.
walpurgis
08-10-2022, 08:37
That's cool. Never seen one before.
They were reliable and sounded OK, you still see the odd one for sale. Neat little thing.
I sometimes play CDs through my Sony Blu-Ray player - part of the TV setup.
It's difficult to compare quality as the system uses different components to that of my main system, but it's probably not quite as good. The TV system uses a pair of B&W DM2a speakers, powered by a Quad 520 amplifier.
I sometimes play CDs through my Sony Blu-Ray player - part of the TV setup.
It's difficult to compare quality as the system uses different components to that of my main system, but it's probably not quite as good. The TV system uses a pair of B&W DM2a speakers, powered by a Quad 520 amplifier.
odd this, but i prefer hearing the tv from the tv.. dunno why really but i do.
Rush2112
08-10-2022, 13:18
My first CD player was a Yamaha CDX1. I mean, how could they fail ? Silver discs that shone a rainbow of colour. Perfect sound forever. A direct digital copy of the master tape.
My first ever purchase was Lionel Richie 'Can't slow down' bought because I had to have something to play and there was bugger all to choose from.
Three years later the Yamaha was gone to be replaced with a Cambridge CD2 and all of it failings.
Anyhow, without them I wouldn't be here now with the memories.My first CD player too !
Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
Rush2112
08-10-2022, 13:28
I have to admit to a period of vinyl drought when my vinyl and AR turntable were in storage at my Gran's and CD was my only source back in the mid 80's. By the early 90's the system was back to full set up with a Alphason Sonata HRS 100MCS Audio Technica OC9 vinyl front end and Meridian 200 / 203 Dac7 digital front end. Things have changed along the way but both Vinyl and CD remain as my sources of choice. Yet to join the streaming fraternity for music that is !
Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk
odd this, but i prefer hearing the tv from the tv.. dunno why really but i do.
For most of the time so do I. It is only when watching films do I fire up the audio system; which has the better bass response and sound staging. However, given the speaker arrangement with respect to the TV screen, the width of the sound stage is wider than the width of the image. Thus at times, someone who is speaking near the edge of the screen sounds as if they are beyond the screen's edge. But it's a rare problem.
Pigmy Pony
08-10-2022, 17:25
For most of the time so do I. It is only when watching films do I fire up the audio system; which has the better bass response and sound staging. However, given the speaker arrangement with respect to the TV screen, the width of the sound stage is wider than the width of the image. Thus at times, someone who is speaking near the edge of the screen sounds as if they are beyond the screen's edge. But it's a rare problem.
Same here. We found SQ to be all over the place with regular TV, so we just don't bother. Films only. The LG OLED makes a respectable sound. But with our old Panasonic plasma the sound was dire, so the surround sound was on all the time.
ive had lots of different addons to tv.. through main system, 5-1, 6-1 and yamaha soundbar(which was the best and probably the dearest), but tbh i find through its own little speakers more intimate and relavent, even if you dont get all the booms etc.. the yam was great with dvd video/audio concerts tho i have to say. i think Ali got it off me
Stranraer
08-10-2022, 18:53
[QUOTE=Jimbo;1329492]I know a few folk who have used DVD players with great results especially SONY models.
I've got an Oppo 105 DVD player hooked up to my system and that does a more than respectable job playing CDs.
[QUOTE=Jimbo;1329492]I know a few folk who have used DVD players with great results especially SONY models.
I've got an Oppo 105 DVD player hooked up to my system and that does a more than respectable job playing CDs.
One of my mates swears by his £20 SONY DVD player - you know who you are!:lol:
Lawrence001
09-10-2022, 19:58
odd this, but i prefer hearing the tv from the tv.. dunno why really but i do.Maybe because the sound is coming from the picture you're looking at, it is distracting if it's not.
TV sound is not as good as even radio sound. The widespread use of lavalier mics has produced a lower mid boost and no top - very off axis.
Hi-Fi reproduction is terrible because it shows this, and also the ubiquitous poor pronunciation of broadcasters.
TV speakers are lacking on lower mid and bass, and so give more intelligibility. I have to have teletext on with mine, and R4 if all but unlistenable.
Maybe because the sound is coming from the picture you're looking at, it is distracting if it's not.
One of the reasons why I dislike surround sound: either in the cinema or with domestic TV setups.
TV sound is not as good as even radio sound. The widespread use of lavalier mics has produced a lower mid boost and no top - very off axis.
Hi-Fi reproduction is terrible because it shows this, and also the ubiquitous poor pronunciation of broadcasters.
TV speakers are lacking on lower mid and bass, and so give more intelligibility. I have to have teletext on with mine, and R4 if all but unlistenable.
I find R4 to be perfectly listenable either via channel 704 on the TV, or via a radio tuner (a Quad FM4 in my case)
Then maybe my ADAM Betas are at fault.
To my ears the sound on FM is identical with that on 704, it is listenable, just, but not clear.
However, occasionally someone speaks with a good mic technique, maybe by accident, and with articulation, mainly old school people like Paxman. One recently retired, a couple of weeks ago, and spoke that day, with a very articulate voice.
Pete The Cat
23-10-2022, 16:24
Thought-provoking article from the OP - thank you :)
My perspective is that the positive reaction given to CD back in the day was because for people on a lower budget CD did - and still does - sound better than vinyl, all the usual other things being equal (i.e. mastering, system synergy, positioning, room acoustics, style of music and how loud you listen).
I don't think we were hoodwinked about CD's sound performance. If you had a Pioneer PL12/stack/music centre vinyl source then a low-priced CD playing a CD mastered in the late '80s or early '90s would spank it.
Obviously we were hoodwinked about CD's longevity and resistance to damage but that's a different matter.
For me it was when I reached the £1500 or so mark that vinyl hardware began to outstrip CD hardware performance, all those things being equal. And also when loudness wars mastering became so prevalent that I struggled to find a decent CD disc.
I feel that there's some revisionism nowadays in favour of vinyl which at the budget end is misleading. Both media have a valid role and if I could pick one deciding factor it would be down to the mastering profile of your collection to determine which is likely to be the better.
Pete
Early memories of CD? Thin and Screechy, but we were told this was the future.
Sucker that I was, in 1986 I bought a Phillips "something", (CD650?). Cost me £600. Didn't have anything to play on it so nipped out to the local petrol station (music shops didn't open on Sundays in those days) and bought George Harrison's "Cloud Nine".
Player was a Work of Art, track selection, repeat play, remote control and it looked amazing. All was well.
Until it came to listening to it. Pretty awful but I tried very hard to like it and kept telling myself "It'll be OK once it settles down". It was still trying to settle down when I sold it for £450 three months later and went back to a Linn Axis, Cyrus One, Monitor Audio 352's.
Players are much better now, but like others I've taken a hit financially along the way.
Most listening now is done from a hub via a Cyrus Stream X2 playing CD ripped tracks, 'cause I can sit in the chair and programme what I want without stirring, and I can't tell the difference between this and CD. They both sound great.
But when I fancy a treat vinyl still raises the bar, as in 1986, except the differences now whilst still being obvious are not quite so great.
Early memories of CD? Thin and Screechy, but we were told this was the future.
Sucker that I was, in 1986 I bought a Phillips "something", (CD650?). Cost me £600. Didn't have anything to play on it so nipped out to the local petrol station (music shops didn't open on Sundays in those days) and bought George Harrison's "Cloud Nine".
Player was a Work of Art, track selection, repeat play, remote control and it looked amazing. All was well.
Until it came to listening to it. Pretty awful but I tried very hard to like it and kept telling myself "It'll be OK once it settles down". It was still trying to settle down when I sold it for £450 three months later and went back to a Linn Axis, Cyrus One, Monitor Audio 352's.
Players are much better now, but like others I've taken a hit financially along the way.
Most listening now is done from a hub via a Cyrus Stream X2 playing CD ripped tracks, 'cause I can sit in the chair and programme what I want without stirring, and I can't tell the difference between this and CD. They both sound great.
But when I fancy a treat vinyl still raises the bar, as in 1986, except the differences now whilst still being obvious are not quite so great.
I notice in your equipment list you use a Chord DAVE which I listen too regularly with the M -scaler. This is one of the great benchmark DACs out there currently and is at the cutting edge of digital audio so I find it interesting you still feel vinyl "raises the bar". I certainly agree with this myself comparing the two technologies. Although vinyl is from the ancient world, with good equipment it still has the ability to produce a better result to my ears than the best digital systems hence why I went from CD back to vinyl.
After I'd had DAVE for about 18 months I too bought an M Scaler, had it running alongside DAVE for about a year and thought "What am I hearing?".
Tried it over long periods both with and without and came to the conclusion that I couldn't hear any difference, so sold the M Scaler. It's too expensive to keep as a doorstop. I can't judge these sort of fine distinctions in shop demo's: I need weeks or even months to form a solid judgement. Home loans go some way but still feel a bit rushed.
My quest was to replicate the sound of my vinyl via CD / network audio and although being close, this still didn't do it. I know my system is capable: on some recordings I can get so close with digital I hesitate to put it forward because folk wouldn't believe me. But it's still not the sound I hear from my vinyl.
I'm also of the view that good vinyl sound, the sort that moves the air around the room and sends an emotional shiver down your back with it's sheer involvement, cannot be done cheaply. This is why I feel vinyl has been misrepresented in the media causing teenagers to go out and buy "something that plays records" and then be deeply disappointed, left wondering what all the fuss is about. Lost to the cause forever.
Others, of course, are free to have a different view.
Firebottle
24-10-2022, 12:14
My quest was to replicate the sound of my vinyl via CD / network audio and although being close, this still didn't do it. I know my system is capable: on some recordings I can get so close with digital I hesitate to put it forward because folk wouldn't believe me. But it's still not the sound I hear from my vinyl.
I'm also of the view that good vinyl sound, the sort that moves the air around the room and sends an emotional shiver down your back with it's sheer involvement, cannot be done cheaply. This is why I feel vinyl has been misrepresented in the media causing teenagers to go out and buy "something that plays records" and then be deeply disappointed, left wondering what all the fuss is about. Lost to the cause forever.
Completely with you on those views Bob, good post.
After I'd had DAVE for about 18 months I too bought an M Scaler, had it running alongside DAVE for about a year and thought "What am I hearing?".
Tried it over long periods both with and without and came to the conclusion that I couldn't hear any difference, so sold the M Scaler. It's too expensive to keep as a doorstop. I can't judge these sort of fine distinctions in shop demo's: I need weeks or even months to form a solid judgement. Home loans go some way but still feel a bit rushed.
My quest was to replicate the sound of my vinyl via CD / network audio and although being close, this still didn't do it. I know my system is capable: on some recordings I can get so close with digital I hesitate to put it forward because folk wouldn't believe me. But it's still not the sound I hear from my vinyl.
I'm also of the view that good vinyl sound, the sort that moves the air around the room and sends an emotional shiver down your back with it's sheer involvement, cannot be done cheaply. This is why I feel vinyl has been misrepresented in the media causing teenagers to go out and buy "something that plays records" and then be deeply disappointed, left wondering what all the fuss is about. Lost to the cause forever.
Others, of course, are free to have a different view.
Surprised you could not hear the difference with the M-Scaler. It is so obvious when you switch it in.
I doubt if you will ever replicate the sound of vinyl with digital. They are apples and pears. Both have a sound of their own although each technology has infinite variations.
Surprised you could not hear the difference with the M-Scaler. It is so obvious when you switch it in.
I doubt if you will ever replicate the sound of vinyl with digital. They are apples and pears. Both have a sound of their own although each technology has infinite variations.
Surprised? Yes, none more so than I. No detectable change, let alone anything obvious.
DAVE on it's own was sweet, and changed my perception of what could be had from a digital source. Good recordings were sublime, poor recordings were still just poor recordings and really that's all they can ever be.
But I did have an expectation that the inclusion of the M Scaler would maybe add a bit of polish to some of the stuff I have that's already a cut above. Perhaps a bit more involvement, a bit more of an edge to a plucked string? A higher sense of presence? Better staging?
But no, didn't get it.
I find the "Good Recording / Bad Recording" has more impact on listening and appreciation than any other variable. Applicable to both formats. I think vinyl done well will always be the preferred format sound wise, but I reckon the inclusion of a quality DAC can bring the two just a little closer together. The recording engineer is a much undervalued contributor I find.
The vinyl copy of "Free, Live" I have is pretty dire (or maybe just worn out - all top and no bottom as they say), the CD version being far preferable. Definitely not a question of "One format wins every time".
I will be listening to a DAVE with M-scaler tonight at my mates so I will see exactly what differences are when it is switched in and out. Very simple to do on DAVE. But when we have done this in the past I certainly noticed a difference but there again this is not in a normal system in a normal room.;).
I remember the soundstage got bigger and the whole presentation was smoother with M-scaler switched in but DAVE is still stunning on its own.
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