Can we become too critical of sound quality?

[Macca]

Was at the christening of a couple of young cousins up in Liverpool on Sunday just gone.

As with most things in those parts the ceremony was followed by an almighty piss up at a community centre type of place. You're in the church at 1000 hrs you start boozing at 1130 - buffet is at 1530 and of course all you had for breakfast is a couple of rounds of toast and marmalade, scoffed down quick with a cup of tea because you got up too late...

I digress - Anyways there was a DJ and a bouncy castle for the kids. DJ had a little PA set up and was streaming his tunes from a laptop - he actually played one of my favourites - 'Young Hearts' - groovy;)

Point is I am sat there (perhaps a little bamboozled on Guinness) and I realise I am actually analysing the sound quality of the PA as it is blasting out 'Young Hearts' (boomy bass, no lower mid except for a nasty single peak with quite a bit of nasty 'shout' to it and splashy top, since you ask...)

Is it just me or does anyone else do this? Meaning start actually listening to sound quality when it is totally inappropriate?

[Steve Eddy]

I don't think any of us who have been spoiled with high quality reproduction can help noticing things like that.

Though I think the answer to your question I think lies in whether or not you were unable to enjoy the song because of it.

I have a cheap little Sony tabletop radio I use in the bathroom while showering. Even so, when a good song comes up, I can still enjoy it and will find myself movin' and groovin' or air guitarin' just as I would otherwise.

So I think that if poor reproduction actually ruins your ability to enjoy a good piece of music, it may be time to consider whether you may be a bit too critical of sound quality.

Them's my thoughts anyway.

se

[Techno Commander]

I do this, especially when out at a club or pub. I also start analysing the lighting rig to see if the LD is doing a decent job, or if everything is on autopilot. :)

[Macca]

I don't think any of us who have been spoiled with high quality reproduction can help noticing things like that.

Though I think the answer to your question I think lies in whether or not you were unable to enjoy the song because of it.

I have a cheap little Sony tabletop radio I use in the bathroom while showering. Even so, when a good song comes up, I can still enjoy it and will find myself movin' and groovin' or air guitarin' just as I would otherwise.

So I think that if poor reproduction actually ruins your ability to enjoy a good piece of music, it may be time to consider whether you may be a bit too critical of sound quality.

Them's my thoughts anyway.

se

Steve - Hearing it on a radio is one thing - you don't expect anything - I used to work in an office where we had the radio on all day and we would occasionally be up and grooving about to certain tunes despite no 'sound quality' at all - but presented with a 'professional' sound system I do seem to feel the need to be critical as in 'I could do better than that let me at the controls'

If you see what I mean?

[Steve Eddy]

Steve - Hearing it on a radio is one thing - you don't expect anything - I used to work in an office where we had the radio on all day and we would occasionally be up and grooving about to certain tunes despite no 'sound quality' at all - but presented with a 'professional' sound system I do seem to feel the need to be critical as in 'I could do better than that let me at the controls'

If you see what I mean?

Yeah, I see what you're saying.

But then there's professional and there's professional if you see what I mean.

Just because someone's getting paid for a gig doesn't necessarily mean they're good at it. And when satisfying the general public, one doesn't have to be very good at it. At least in terms of sound quality. The general public thinks a Bose Acoustic Wave system is the pinnacle of high end audio. I mean, Herbie Hancock told them so. :lol:

se

[goraman]

A freind of mine DJed in some high end clubs in NY.
He has awards for best sound.
He has no idea the differance between 20hz. and 20khz.
Sound stage or midrange is not in his vocabulary,what is his focus?
6 huge 18inch JBL subwoofers,and a bottle of Crown Royal.

He once told me people don't care about sound quality and he dosen't either (People just want loud).

[Steve Eddy]

A freind of mine DJed in some high end clubs in NY.
He has awards for best sound.
He has no idea the differance between 20hz. and 20khz.
Sound stage or midrange is not in his vocabulary,what is his focus?
6 huge 18inch JBL subwoofers,and a bottle of Crown Royal.

He once told me people don't care about sound quality and he dosen't either (People just want loud).

That rather sadly sums it up.

I remember back in the day one or other of my friends would buy a rather cheap department store "rack" system and invite me over to give it a listen. They'd crank it up until the amp was severely distorting and in some instances you could hear the woofer's voice coils slamming into the back plate.

And then they'd say "Dunnit sound great!?"

No, it didn't. But it was indeed loud.

se

[anthonyTD]

hi all,
i remember a place i used to go to when i was about 18 [many, many moons ago now] the DJ was a guy called john D, i used to watch him setting his system up and then doing sound checks etc, the guy was maticulous in everything he did, and it paid off, the sound there was the best i had ever heard in any club even to this day, i still remember tunes played at that place when they come on the radio, it just takes me back there. of course it was all analogue ie; turntables, tapes etc and it was just great!
anthony,TD...

[DSJR]

The Junior School where our son attended had a good DJ and rig for their disco's. Source was predominantly digital and volume was kept to a sensible loudish level (to preserve youngster's hearing). The sound was "PA-like," but pretty clear and intelligible nonetheless. Bearing in mind that I can no longer tolerate screaming harshness of any kind now, I'd like to regard my opinion as a compliment to this guy.

[Techno Commander]

I remember one venue I worked at, where the engineer was quite fastidious about the sound quality. The system was Electrovoice cabs and Crown amps, about 15K in total for a venue that held 350 people. There was massive ammounts of headroom available and no audible distortion whatsoever.

I remember a promoter complaining it wasnt loud enough, even though I watch the levels being increased after each "complaint". Eventually the engineer ran the signal through a stereo distortion pedal and applied "some gain". Five minutes later the promoter returned with a big smile saying it sounded much louder.

We laughed all the way to the bar.:lol:

[anthonyTD]

I remember one venue I worked at, where the engineer was quite fastidious about the sound quality. The system was Electrovoice cabs and Crown amps, about 15K in total for a venue that held 350 people. There was massive ammounts of headroom available and no audible distortion whatsoever.

I remember a promoter complaining it wasnt loud enough, even though I watch the levels being increased after each "complaint". Eventually the engineer ran the signal through a stereo distortion pedal and applied "some gain". Five minutes later the promoter returned with a big smile saying it sounded much louder.

We laughed all the way to the bar.:lol:
thats always the worry when a system has that much headroom, because when there are no nasty harmonics or clipping to remind you, how loud would you need to go before it becomes too loud!!!
anthony,TD...

[HighFidelityGuy]

I'm very guilty of this. I simply can't tollerate bad sound quality in most places unless the volume is very low. I also can't help focussing in on music and analyzing not only the sound quality but also the performance as well. It can cause issues when I'm in public places etc as I end up missing what people are saying in conversations as my ears are more bothered about analyzing the drum rhythem or bass line etc in the music playing in the background. I think that's why I notice the sound quality so much and I think this comes from being involved with musical performance from a young age. It's just second nature to me. I know how instruments should sound and it pisses me off when they don't sound correct.

Harsh splashy trebble is the thing that annoys me the most. I can tollerate lots of detail in the trebble but if its harsh and over the top it just gives me a headache and stops me from concentrating. I can tollerate over the top bass. That doesn't seem to affect me anywhere near as much.

I used to go to a club in Sheffield called Kingdom which has since been refurbished and renamed. When it first opened the sound quality and lighting setups were very good compared to most clubs. Unfortunately a few years down the line, someone decided to have extra tweeters installed into all the main speakers. None of my friends seemed to notice that all of a sudden the sound was incredibly harsh. I used to leave with a headache after that. They also stoped using their lasers and stopped cleaning, so I quickly fell out of love with the place as it went down hill. :rolleyes:

[Steve Eddy]

Bearing in mind that I can no longer tolerate screaming harshness of any kind now...

So I assume you're single? http://www.q-audio.com/images/biggrin.gif

se

[John]

I am a bit like this with guitar players checking how well they can play, seeing what I can learn from. Thankfuly with Hifi I can turn this off

[Techno Commander]

thats always the worry when a system has that much headroom, because when there are no nasty harmonics or clipping to remind you, how loud would you need to go before it becomes too loud!!!
anthony,TD...

Its not really a worry as such. Its more an indication that so many people listen to poor systems they they equate distortion with loudness.

I have almost 1.5Kw of amplification in the front room. I only use a very small proportion of it and do like to crank it up. There is nothing wrong with loud if done well.

[Techno Commander]

So I assume you're single? http://www.q-audio.com/images/biggrin.gif

se

:lol::lol::lolsign:

[Reid Malenfant]

thats always the worry when a system has that much headroom, because when there are no nasty harmonics or clipping to remind you, how loud would you need to go before it becomes too loud!!!
anthony,TD...


Its not really a worry as such. Its more an indication that so many people listen to poor systems they they equate distortion with loudness.

I have almost 1.5Kw of amplification in the front room. I only use a very small proportion of it and do like to crank it up. There is nothing wrong with loud if done well.
I'm in agreement here ;) Just because you might have a lot of power doesn't mean to say that you'll ever use it to it's maximum. You are far better off with more power (within reason) than your speakers can handle than an underpowered system. The reason being is that the speakers or your ears will make distortion first. If you can't hear it then bad luck, buy yourself a PA & listen to distortion - forget hifi if you can't hear it. Loudspeakers will handle more power than there average ratings for a time as long as that power being fed to them is undistorted.

My ideal system is one where i can listen at any volume level i'll ever wish to go to without clipping amps or speakers going out of there linear excursion, no matter how loud :eyebrows: The chances of me ever pushing things to full volume are pretty remote, therefore i'll have the least amount of distortion produced by the system as a whole no matter what i ask it to do (& neighbours beware :lol:).

I'll have nearly 5KW of amplification in here when i have done, do remember though that i'll be driving low efficiency subs & i'll be going stupendously low (13Hz @ 108Db).

[Techno Commander]

There is a lot to be said for muscle amps with the appropriate speakers.:)

Yet I have a strange urge to buy a valve integrated.:scratch:

[John]

Its about system matching big powered amps are great with the right speakers so are lower powered amps

[Alex_UK]

Having been a "professional" DJ in a previous life, to a degree you are beholding to your venue (if it is an installed system) or the kit you have (if it is mobile) but by and large, most of my peers at the time (80's/90's) were guilty of a) maxxing out the bass control and b) using way to much master volume. Part of the problem is that usually you have no accurate monitoring system, so unless you do a sound check from the listeners perspective you are making adjustments from behind the speakers. The other issue is that once a venue (hopefully!) fills up, all those bodies in nice absorbent clothing (well hopefully not too much on the ladies!) suck even more of the volume from where you're standing, so the temptation from behind the decks is to whack the volume up even more. I was smarter than most - I recognised that blood spurting from earholes was not a positive reaction! :eyebrows:

[colinB]

A friend of mine used to DJ and put on his own club nights. Once the club was shut we used to go back to his for an after party. He used to really make an effort always buying big subs and celestion speakers audiolab amps and the like.
Now when i go to his house he plays his ipod on a Bose dock and thinks it sounds great turned up to distortion levels. I just find it painful and rather sad he has forgotten what good sound is.

[goraman]

I remember one venue I worked at, where the engineer was quite fastidious about the sound quality. The system was Electrovoice cabs and Crown amps, about 15K in total for a venue that held 350 people. There was massive ammounts of headroom available and no audible distortion whatsoever.

I remember a promoter complaining it wasnt loud enough, even though I watch the levels being increased after each "complaint". Eventually the engineer ran the signal through a stereo distortion pedal and applied "some gain". Five minutes later the promoter returned with a big smile saying it sounded much louder.

We laughed all the way to the bar.:lol:


That really sums it up,you can't fix stupid.

[anthonyTD]

I'm in agreement here ;) Just because you might have a lot of power doesn't mean to say that you'll ever use it to it's maximum. You are far better off with more power (within reason) than your speakers can handle than an underpowered system. The reason being is that the speakers or your ears will make distortion first. If you can't hear it then bad luck, buy yourself a PA & listen to distortion - forget hifi if you can't hear it. Loudspeakers will handle more power than there average ratings for a time as long as that power being fed to them is undistorted.

My ideal system is one where i can listen at any volume level i'll ever wish to go to without clipping amps or speakers going out of there linear excursion, no matter how loud :eyebrows: The chances of me ever pushing things to full volume are pretty remote, therefore i'll have the least amount of distortion produced by the system as a whole no matter what i ask it to do (& neighbours beware :lol:).

I'll have nearly 5KW of amplification in here when i have done, do remember though that i'll be driving low efficiency subs & i'll be going stupendously low (13Hz @ 108Db).

hi mark,
[and others]
dont get me wrong here, i am in complete agreement about the clean power thing and having amplification that is capable of at least twice the power rating of the speakers makes perfect sense, what i am getting at is youngsters today seem to relate high volume with distortion, we all know that its excesive and prolonged sound pressure level that causes the greatest hearing damage not distortion, hence the lower down the power scale equipment distorts in a nasty way for young ears anyway, the safer their hearing will be in the long run!:)
anthony,TD...

[Sahib]

The main reason I don't go to bars to listen to live music much is the sound quality. I can't stand it. It seems like the idea is to have as many drinks as you can and blow the f*** out of your brain with a wall of sound so clipped that you can literally lay your bed on it. As opposed to sitting down with a drink and enjoying the music. But I agree with the comment that it is exactly what is wanted in that scene.