View Full Version : Don't You Believe It
I felt compelled to pen this post after an email conversation earlier today with Scott Nangle (what a nice man - https://snvinyl.co.uk/)- I had just bought a new stylus and cartridge from him. The conversation inevitably included cartridge/arm matching etc. Anyway, he sent me a tongue in cheek link to the Vertere Reference Tonearm Gen III at a mere £43,899 :eek: No, that's not a mistype a whisker short of £44K.
That was shock enough but what intrigued me and got me thinking was the blurb that accompanied said advert opining that the tonearm was the single most important component of vinyl playback. It got me thinking because I know I have read/heard contrary opinions so I did a very quick Google for some quotes. Bear in mind these are from well respected people in the industry.
1. Our Philosophy – No matter how good your turntable, the crucial link is still the tonearm.’– Vertere
Vertere Reference Tonearm Gen III £43,899.00
2. Maybe it's best to draw an analogy that is easy to relate to. Certain critical parts of the design of a race car will allow it to stay on the track - to allow the driver to not fly off the road - mainly, the tires, and suspension.* THAT is the cartridge in your analog system. It is KEY. In an analog system, the cartridge does MOST of the heavy lifting - it does the nearly impossible task of retrieving physical information from the groove and converting it into precisely perfect electrical signals. A waveform NOT picked up by the cartridge will not be "re-created" by a great arm or table, electronics and speakers. It will be lost at the beginning of the process.*
Peter Ledermann - Soundsmith
3. We get many calls and emails from folk asking how much importance they should place upon the phono amp in their system? *The answer is of course, no matter how good your turntable, arm and cartridge combination is, the tiny signal from a low/medium output coil is open to corruption simply because of the vulnerability of such a small signal voltage. Add to this the EQ and gain needed to amplify the signal while reproducing an extremely flat frequency response above line level and you can understand how difficult it is to maintain your cartridges signal integrity.
Tom Evans - TEAD
4. The turntable itself is the most important since it drives the record, houses the motor, bearing housing, and can affect the suspension and isolation the turntable has from external movements.
Linn (Audio Genesis)
:scratch:
So there you have it - or rather you don't. :argument: In 2022 there is still fundamental disagreement among respected experts about the relative importance of TT/arm/cartridge/phono stage. It is not lost on me that the opinions reflect the particular manufacturers product line - OK not entirely so with Linn but their TT's are way more expensive than their arms and cartridges.
Anyway, I just find it a little dispiriting that there is such disagreement which suggests nobody actually knows. Who/what to believe?
My HiFi journey started during the LP12/Naim 32.5/HiCap/250/Kann era so I bought into (and still do) the TT first, tonearm second and cartridge third hierarchy and (I think) it has served me well.
YMMV so interested to read what others think - or maybe it really has been done to death :rolleyes:
Caveat Emptor
'experts' each say their discipline is most important... well they would say that
As far as I'm concerned the cartridge (and choice of stylus profile) and arm are equally important in 'reading' the record groove.
All the turntable has to do is rotate at a constant rpm with both low low-frequency variation ('wow) and low high-frequency ('flutter') variation. The bearing should be good enough so that 'rumble' is sufficiently low. The latter depends on the way the turntable is mounted in it's plinth; but it's not "back magic". More or less any turntable as used by professional broadcasters or in the quality monitoring suites of record makers are good enough (e.g. EMT, Thorens TD124/II, Technics SP10; though I would regard Gates TTs, as used by some broadcasters, as not being really suitable).
I never bought into the Linn philosophy - especially after hearing their Isobarik speakers, which I regard as being the worse speakers I have ever heard.
It's important to distinguish between experts and salesmen.
Sometimes (but mostly not) the salesman is an expert, but he's still first and foremost selling something.
I'd argue that with a vinyl replay system every component is critical and can probably be improved on in some way.
losepete
25-07-2022, 18:59
I'd argue that with a vinyl replay system every component is critical and can probably be improved on in some way.
I have to agree with Macca.
Pigmy Pony
26-07-2022, 05:49
I reckon it's the vinyl itself. The best set up in the world can't make a silk purse... And if the black shiny discs are pressed on crappy old equipment that's not been properly looked after, and worked by folk who may not have been born during vinyl's heyday, what can you expect?
There will be exceptions of course, plenty of them, but for the most part it's a gamble with increasingly large amounts of your hard earned.
The bloke from Soundsmith uses a pretty good analogy, which I would expand further: All the money spent on suspension and tyres will be wasted if the racetrack is littered with potholes, gravel and cowshit.
The whole business of vinyl replay is so ridden with compromises and distortion, it's a miracle that it sounds as good as it does. A large part for this is because despite the RSS of all the distortion mechanisms being 10 - 12%, it almost entirely second harmonic, which the ear finds euphonic.
narabdela
26-07-2022, 18:47
I never bought into the Linn philosophy - especially after hearing their Isobarik speakers, which I regard as being the worse speakers I have ever heard.
Yes, and no. The Kans were the worst I ever heard, the Bricks came a close second.
Never herd the Linn Kans, but I'm not surprised you found them Krap.
Us-&-Them
03-08-2022, 17:54
Its like everything in life; there's always for and against, claim and counter-claim; it makes me wonder if you can ever really get to the truth!!!!! One thing I do agree with though is, the saying used by Linn back in the days when I first got into Hi-Fi, and that is: GIGO (Garbage In, Garbage Out).
Translated, that means, if you send Garbage into an amplifier, you will get amplified Garbage coming out and, in turn, that is sent to the speakers so, you get to hear Garbage !!!!
THE SIGNAL SOURCE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT STARTING POINT!!!!!!
Pigmy Pony
03-08-2022, 21:06
I think all of it is important - you could have the finest quality source which could easily be ruined by an amp out of its depth or crap speakers. And even if all of it is tip top, the room could still undo it all...
And as you go further up towards the "high end" I reckon the speakers and their interaction with the room have the biggest effect.
But what do I know, I once bought a Susan Boyle CD.
I thought the isobariks had a tight bass, but a diffused top and imaging. The Kans used to be referred to as Tin Cans.
Us-&-Them
03-08-2022, 21:20
But what do I know, I once bought a Susan Boyle CD.
:eek: :eek: :eek:
Pigmy Pony
04-08-2022, 14:21
:eek: :eek: :eek:
Oh sh-t did I say that out loud :o
Oh sh-t did I say that out loud :o
she stays a couple of miles away... used to sing in a pub i drank in too...
Pigmy Pony
04-08-2022, 15:01
Her light shone bright for a few minutes. She had (has) a great voice imo, just not really my kind of thing. But I got caught up in the Sue-Bo thing and decided I'd buy her CD as I thought she deserved some success. But I believe it all got too much for her, and her head fell off.
Her light shone bright for a few minutes. She had (has) a great voice imo, just not really my kind of thing. But I got caught up in the Sue-Bo thing and decided I'd buy her CD as I thought she deserved some success. But I believe it all got too much for her, and her head fell off.
she is still making music and records afaik. think she had a makover too. still stays in same house she always did. (unless she moved recently)
Always think of this when talking about Susan Boyle... Tweet about the launch of her new album.
See if you can spot it. :D
https://www.ajournalofmusicalthings.com/wp-content/uploads/SusanAlbumParty1.png
Pigmy Pony
04-08-2022, 16:01
Always think of this when talking about Susan Boyle... Tweet about the launch of her new album.
See if you can spot it. :D
https://www.ajournalofmusicalthings.com/wp-content/uploads/SusanAlbumParty1.png
:lol::lol: I bet that was well attended!
good way to keep the questions down:D
walpurgis
04-08-2022, 17:43
They only wanted 'the right sort of people' to attend.
Us-&-Them
04-08-2022, 18:04
they only wanted 'the right sort of people' to attend.
WHO MIGHT THEY BE ?? SIMON AND THE JUDGES, THE PROGRAM MAKERS AND THE CORPORATE MONEY MAKERS ??? :lol::lol:
Pigmy Pony
04-08-2022, 18:36
good way to keep the questions down:D
I bet the merchandising did well though, especially the commemorative butt plugs shaped like Su-Bo's head :)
Us-&-Them
04-08-2022, 19:26
I bet the merchandising did well though, especially the commemorative butt plugs shaped like Su-Bo's head :)
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
I have the same regard for Adele - she can sing, but that's about it.
Us-&-Them
05-08-2022, 00:16
i have the same regard for adele - she can sing, but that's about it.
I agree; as I said in one of my previous posts somewhere on here - Adele's music is so depressing I just cannot understand what anyone finds good about it!!!! I'm sure she's a very nice person and she can definitely sing but, that's about it.
We're all different and other people love her music but, alas, it's not for me.
walpurgis
05-08-2022, 06:56
I have the same regard for Adele - she can sing, but that's about it.
I put her in the same slot as Ed Sheeran. The type of music kids and grannies buy because they think it's 'nice'. Fills the void left since Cliff (apparently) retired. It's all sh*t! Only in my opinion of course :D.
She can sing fairly well, although it is possible to hear her struggle, but her work does not communicate a sense of real art or profound insight.
Us-&-Them
05-08-2022, 11:21
i put her in the same slot as ed sheeran. The type of music kids and grannies buy because they think it's 'nice'. Fills the void left since cliff (apparently) retired. It's all sh*t! Only in my opinion of course :d.
I put a lot of todays mainstream music in the category of "sh1t." I find most politicians full of sh1t but, I remember some time ago that an M.P. said something along the lines of the fact that he was sick of toffs and/or rich kids in the mainstream charts......................... I totally agree with him!!!!!
Beobloke
05-08-2022, 11:49
I have the same regard for Adele - she can sing, but that's about it.
No she can't. She can drone along in a dreary monotone, or shriek. I don't class either of these as "singing".
What do Members think about Celine Dion?
What do Members think about Celine Dion?
i quite liked her early stuff, but not heard anyof her later work.. i know she is worth a small fortune...no, a large fortune..
in las vagas she is the big mommy lol
walpurgis
05-08-2022, 15:58
What do Members think about Celine Dion?
Prefer her to Adele, but still not for me.
rmcin626
05-08-2022, 16:07
What do Members think about Celine Dion?
Not my type of singer
Us-&-Them
05-08-2022, 16:26
What do Members think about Celine Dion?
I reiterate what others have said; i prefer Celine but not really my kind of music (at least her music isn't totally depressing like Adeles).
i quite liked her early stuff, but not heard anyof her later work.. i know she is worth a small fortune...no, a large fortune..
in las vagas she is the big mommy lol
She was in residence at Caesar's Palace last time I was there. Adele is taking over that slot soon, coincidentally.
Not my sort of thing, Dion or Adele.
Pigmy Pony
05-08-2022, 17:32
What do Members think about Celine Dion?
Well for a start she has a face like a shoe. I think she has since had some work done and lost a shitload of weight. So now she has a face like a shoe you might see discarded at the side of the road (What happens to the other shoe, that's what I'd like to know).
Oh, her music? Not my scene man.
Well I have no knowledge of her, save that she is a very popular singer with many.
From what all of you have said about her, I doubt she would appeal to me.
Cheers
Apropos her looks, when younger she didn't look too bad:
https://cdn.britannica.com/91/231791-004-029533D6/Canadian-singer-Celine-Dion-2014.jpg
But I'm afraid she is ageing badly:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/NINTCHDBPICT000464474653-e1580294717168.jpg?w=620
Us-&-Them
05-08-2022, 20:20
apropos her looks, when younger she didn't look too bad:
https://cdn.britannica.com/91/231791-004-029533d6/canadian-singer-celine-dion-2014.jpg
but i'm afraid she is ageing badly:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/nintchdbpict000464474653-e1580294717168.jpg?w=620
I think her dress sense is ageing quite badly aswell !!!! Grannies r us !!!! Has she any health issues because she doesn't look well?
I don't think I've ever seen a thread that's deviated so far from the (my) original post
:offtopic:
:lol::lol::lol:
AoS is notorious for thread drift! :lol:
But I think your original appeal for opinions on vinyl replay has been adequately answered.
Pigmy Pony
05-08-2022, 21:03
It's a look favoured by older American celebrities I think (yes I know she's Canadian). She apparently does have some ongoing health problems (muscle spasms).
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTfr5dWpW_r8k9KNvef3sAWO6z0dd-sqP7EXQ&usqp=CAU
"Barry! How can you not have heard of me? I'm really famous you know. Anyway you'll have to remain oblivious for a little longer as I've cancelled my upcoming European tour. But be assured, when the new dates are confirmed, you'll be the first to know"
Well for a start she has a face like a shoe. I think she has since had some work done and lost a shitload of weight. So now she has a face like a shoe you might see discarded at the side of the road (What happens to the other shoe, that's what I'd like to know).
Oh, her music? Not my scene man.
Harsh,
but fair.
Pigmy Pony
06-08-2022, 16:13
Harsh,
but fair.
Was a bit harsh I know, but I'd rather have a few million in the bank and a face like a shoe (albeit a Manolo Blahnik) than be skint and pretty.
I'm tempted to say I'd use some of the money to have some work done, but that doesn't usually end well.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Vc1AODCk60U/maxresdefault.jpg
Why did she feel the need to mess with that? Why?
What about the vets who do the work? They have to share some of the blame.
'Hi Doc, I'm off my head and I've decided I'd like to look like one of the Thundercats.'
'Yes I can do that for you. Cash or charge?'
serves her right in a way, but docs should be jailed for doing that.
What a tragic violation of nature, she was lovely.
It reflects the degree to which we are all subject to criticism, and the growth of a feeling of inadequacy.
Pigmy Pony
07-08-2022, 10:12
One of my daughters periodically has work done. No reconstructive surgery. Just(!) botox or collagen or something, I don't like to ask. I don't know if the aim is to be prettier (failed), or if a certain look is the goal, that goal being a face like a satellite dish and a vacant expression. I suspect the latter, as I look at her friends, and they all look the same way.
folk, mostly women are mad risking what they have for an unlikely hope of 'better'. thick lips, no lines in face(both unnatural and look terrible even when done right) and big fat arses seem most common desires, usually trying to emulate a pop star or 'influencer'.
im no pin up but at least im just naturally like this so can blame it on my genes etc...:D
Probably a suitable point with which to end this thread.
(I was always impressed by Robert Redford' statement that he would eschew all forms of cosmetic surgery and just grow old gracefully. I have adopted the same policy; and fortunately thanks to having a very good dentist, have a set of teeth that will see me out without having to use dentures.)
Mikeandvan
22-08-2022, 21:02
Apropos her looks, when younger she didn't look too bad:
https://cdn.britannica.com/91/231791-004-029533D6/Canadian-singer-Celine-Dion-2014.jpg
But I'm afraid she is ageing badly:
https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/NINTCHDBPICT000464474653-e1580294717168.jpg?w=620
That's some quality Grilf right there!! Seriously, i think she looks great, very stylish lady. Photographing someone from that angle is not the most flattering either.
Filterlab
24-09-2022, 21:01
Never herd the Linn Kans, but I'm not surprised you found them Krap.
To be honest, no Linn equipment has ever impressed me.
Lawrence001
24-09-2022, 22:16
The Linn DS streamer is nice
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