When digital streaming sounds good, why do we pour money into the vinyl money pit?

[CageyH]

My vinyl set up is half decent, and my digital has cost me much less. However, today if I had to pick one or the other, I think it would be hard to argue that vinyl is worth the investment.

Does anybody else share this view?

I don’t think I could bin vinyl though, as there is something magical about spinning a bit of black plastic. I am just not sure it can go toe to toe with digital for the same expenditure.

[Lawrence001]

I guess I'm lucky I built my vinyl collection over my teens and early 20s when it was becoming eclipsed by CD and bargains were available. Not that it's all mint or quality pressings.

You can still pick them up if you're prepared to trail around charity shops outside the middle class/hipster areas and beat the other vinyl collectors to any decent collections handed in A good TT can still be bought for great prices, Sony DDs, Thorens and Lenco for example.

The convenience of digital can't be beaten but some like putting in the effort to build a nice collection of vinyl. I suspect I could tell you where I got most of my 4-500 odd records from. Not necessarily the exact charity shop in those cases, but rough location, all the record shop/market bought ones I do remember.

[struth]

Inclined to agree, especially with the budgets we mostly have. Im sure vinyl and tape done at somewhere near top end may well be better for some/many, but ate certainly my budget my files system is as good as i need it to be and at a fairly modest cost, as im using cans now(and not silly priced ones either).
That said, if i were a bit fitter i would have kept my TT. As is, I still have the vinyl, or most of it. If i ever find a nice auto that takes little room one day i might go for it. Otherwise the vinyl will eventually be sold.(as macca says, vinyl is still appreciating)

[Pigmy Pony]

I don't think vinyl (with its accompanying effort, storage and running costs) bears close scrutiny. Digital will win every time. I mean, if vinyl had never been invented, it certainly wouldn't happen now - anyone coming up with such a flawed and costly idea would be laughed out of the room.

But it was invented and became our only means of entertainment (no X-Box, no social media, no smartphones, just the telly with Top of the Pops and OGWT).

So our records have become arguably our only tangible link to our past, and it's a hard thing to let go of (not that I want to). It's something we do with our hearts rather than our heads.

That's my theory of why us oldies still stick with our LPs, why youngsters are getting into it I have no idea.

[bumpy]

Same reason they drink designer lagers.

[Pieoftheday]

I havnt used vinyl for a long time and I have never streamed anything, I have had to RIP my CDs to a hard drive due to space constraints and whilst the flac files sound great I'd go back to using physical discs anyday.i just prefer using something I can hold ,so for me I'd def go to the expense of vinyl or CD if I had the space

[Macca]

before streaming if you went to someone's place and they had a collection of recordings, could be LP, CD or cassette tape you could scan through them and get an idea of what they were into and, maybe, some idea of who they were. Size and variance of collection might also tell you how seriously they were into their music.

A large, varied collection of recordings was a thing of awe and respect.

But now anyone has a collection of millions of recordings at the click of the mouse, so all that is gone. For the youthful punter he can no longer define himself via his music collection nor can anyone define him.

So the appeal of anachronistic methods of music delivery. CD looks pretty unspectacular in its little plastic cases and its playback system is straightforward 'plug and play' , but vinyl with the twelve inch artwork and the playback system with lots of fiddly adjustments is appealingly esoteric.

I don't think I would compare to designer lager, more comparable I think to a youngster who owns a classic car, scooter or motorbike. Or maybe similar to dressing in classic vintage clothing (I notice at least some of the youths crate digging in my local record shop wearing vintage jeans and jackets).

[Jimbo]

I love how the vinyl digital debate can be started by couching the question in so many different ways.:)

[struth]

no doubt vinyl is more satisfying in a touchy, feely way that digital cant match, but in modern world, vinyl takes a lot of room and can cost a lot of money too, even for average equipment and collection. Vinyl also needs much more feedback from the user, which you either love of can be doing without/hate, and may need a knowledge you struggle with. ive well over a thousand recordings on file plus qobuz for new stuff or stuff i may like but eithr cant get or cant afford. Also being disabled it means i can do everything from my seat.

[Lawrence001]

A minority of youngsters are getting into it to be different and it feels more sophisticated. Nothing wrong with wanting either of those I was like that when I was younger. I still like to feel sophisticated now occasionally [emoji23]

[Macca]

I love how the vinyl digital debate can be started by couching the question in so many different ways.:)

Is there really a debate worth having? Most people in our age group seem to use both. I'm always happy to listen to either. There's not really that much difference in a sorted system, providing the records are properly clean. Sometimes I have forgotten whether I am listening to CD or LP and been surprised by the clicking of the run-out groove.

In terms of enjoying music, which is the ultimate goal, I don't think it matters.

if a youngster asked me for advice I'd say just stick with streaming. But if he insisted on a physical format I'd tell him to buy LPs not CDs. If you're going to start collecting a physical format you might as well go for the interesting one that appreciates in value.

I sorted a friend out with a turntable earlier today, he wants to get into vinyl. He's 72.

[Pigmy Pony]

I havnt used vinyl for a long time and I have never streamed anything, I have had to RIP my CDs to a hard drive due to space constraints and whilst the flac files sound great I'd go back to using physical discs anyday.i just prefer using something I can hold ,so for me I'd def go to the expense of vinyl or CD if I had the space

Unless your collection is really huge, I can't see storage space being that much of a problem for most people. My vinyl and CDs take up a lot less room than her clothes - that would be my defence if I was ever nagged about it. Even the granddaughter's toys take up more space, and she's only been around 3 years.

[Jimbo]

Is there really a debate worth having? Most people in our age group seem to use both. I'm always happy to listen to either. There's not really that much difference in a sorted system, providing the records are properly clean. Sometimes I have forgotten whether I am listening to CD or LP and been surprised by the clicking of the run-out groove.

In terms of enjoying music, which is the ultimate goal, I don't think it matters.

if a youngster asked me for advice I'd say just stick with streaming. But if he insisted on a physical format I'd tell him to buy LPs not CDs. If you're going to start collecting a physical format you might as well go for the interesting one that appreciates in value.

I sorted a friend out with a turntable earlier today, he wants to get into vinyl. He's 72.

No the debate is not really worth having but unlike you I would not be happy listening to both.:) For me there is still an important difference but I agree with other parts of your post. If I was young and no one ever played any vinyl to me I would just stream.

I cant understand these folk who want to get back into vinyl after living with digital for so many years!;)

[Pepperamip]

I've never had a deck. I've had a good few CD players and now streaming yet I long to give vinyl a go.

The only thing that stops me is I'll be starting from scratch with zero media and not much idea on what to buy hardware wise. In the end I probably won't go down that road but just because I've only been a digital music listener doesn't mean I wouldn't like to give it a go.

My old man had a stack full of LPs in his loft at their previous house. When they moved he just left them all up there and never thought to see if me or my brother wanted them. I still tell him to this day I would've had them but he just assumed they were for the dump or in his case the new home owners (nice little gift if you ask me)

Sent from my M2103K19G using Tapatalk

[Jimbo]

I've never had a deck. I've had a good few CD players and now streaming yet I long to give vinyl a go.

The only thing that stops me is I'll be starting from scratch with zero media and not much idea on what to buy hardware wise. In the end I probably won't go down that road but just because I've only been a digital music listener doesn't mean I wouldn't like to give it a go.

My old man had a stack full of LPs in his loft at their previous house. When they moved he just left them all up there and never thought to see if me or my brother wanted them. I still tell him to this day I would've had them but he just assumed they were for the dump or in his case the new home owners (nice little gift if you ask me)

Sent from my M2103K19G using Tapatalk

Wow that vinyl hoard could have contained some treasures!

[walpurgis]

I've never had a deck. I've had a good few CD players and now streaming yet I long to give vinyl a go.

The only thing that stops me is I'll be starting from scratch with zero media and not much idea on what to buy hardware wise. In the end I probably won't go down that road but just because I've only been a digital music listener doesn't mean I wouldn't like to give it a go.

It really doesn't have to cost a fortune for a simple and decent sounding record playing set-up. I've had all sorts of fancy decks, arms and cartridges, but these days I seldom play records, so I've 'dumbed down' things and just run a vintage Thorens TD150 II with a Shure cartridge. This has made me revise my view on owning costlier gear, because the deck sounds great! It stands me in at around £110.

[Lawrence001]

Did like my TD150II should have kept it. There's something about the simplicity of the Kugelarm that seems to do something right with the music. And it's a design classic as well

[walpurgis]

Did like my TD150II should have kept it. There's something about the simplicity of the Kugelarm that seems to do something right with the music. And it's a design classic as well

You can also get great results from the Pioneer PL-12D and Goldring (Lenco) GL75. Both of which can still be found at sensible prices if you're lucky. Strangely, the Thorens seems to be the least costly, but I regard it as the best.

[AJSki2fly]

From my experience if comparing vinyl with CD(digital) then generally the aural experience can be quite different, even when listening to recordings on each medium taken from the same master recording, obviously the equipment used in both cases can and will have an impact to. I believe though the difference between the two is primarily due to the transcription process of each being distinctly different and each has its own unique compression/decompression methods.

Vinyl has to mechanically manage low frequencies(bass) and the impact it has in trying to get a small needle to follow if not compressed would be an impractically large groove, the upper frequencies are not so affected but getting accurate high end frequencies recorded and reproduced with vinyl is also a challenge.

Digital recording works completely differently and faces no such issues, but what does impact it is accurate timing and loss of data when trying to recreate an analogue signal, we are all familiar with the terms frequency rate, over-sampling, error correction and clocking which are aspects/methods of trying to eradicate issues with digital.

I have a reasonably large collection of vinyl(1600+), collected over the last 8 years, 90% purchased at charity shops, used records shops or friends collections given to me. I also have around 600 CDs and quite a large number of digital files (mp3, CD equivalent and Flac).

I returned to vinyl for several reasons, mainly because I realised that I like the way it sounds, since the early 80s I found CDs sound reproduction frustrating, it fluctuated from superb to awful depending on how, who or what had produced it, having said that you also get good and appalling records. The other reason I started re-collecting vinyl was it gave me an interest and hobby whilst I came to terms with my heart problems and it got me out and took my mind of it.

So where am I now, I suppose my preferred listening experience is vinyl, although this is using what most would consider a not inexpensive turntable, cartridge and phono-stage amp, not top end but does a very good job, I know some who have spent double or more with not much gain in SQ in IMHO. I also listen to CDs with an Audiolab 8300cdq(very capable CDP) and to be honest it is very good and at times more revealing(accurate) than vinyl. I also listen to digital streaming, with Rpi/HiFiBerry spdif(Volumio) to DAC and with a microRendu, I have tried TIDAL, Spotify, QObuz, used ROON and Audirvāna. I find it very difficult to say one is much better than the other reproducing the same digital files. However if you compare the cost between the vinyl replay setup and the digital replay, be it CDP or streaming, then the difference in cost is huge, in the order of 10 to 20 times that for vinyl to that of digital to get a similar level of SQ.

So in all honesty the bottom line for me is that for value for money and SQ digital wins hands down, especially if you have never heard vinyl reproduction at a good level. However I love the way vinyl sounds especially with a good record, I have never quite put my finger on why but I think it is the dynamic feeling it can portray, somehow this can be lost with digital, just a thought, it’s not necessarily better just different.

[Macca]

Digital recording works completely differently and faces no such issues, but what does impact it is accurate timing and loss of data when trying to recreate an analogue signal, we are all familiar with the terms frequency rate, over-sampling, error correction and clocking which are aspects/methods of trying to eradicate issues with digital.

.

In reality none of these things are of any consequence although they are used as marketing tools to sell people stuff they don't need. As a medium vinyl intrinsically requires more compression than digital. But recordings on digital mediums are sometimes heavily compressed. If the gain staging of the playback system is flawed this can make those recordings unlistenable.

Sort that out and the problem mostly disappears. I think I have only two CDs that are marred by being too heavily compressed, both are 'best of' compilations.

if you can't get the volume off of '1' with some cds or files without it sounding too loud or 'shouty' that's a problem with gain staging of the system.

With a properly sorted system (and room) there's no consideration of format, you press play and get the sound of the recording, not the sound of the system, or the sound of the medium.

[Macca]

I posted this a while back on another thread but it's relevant here also:

Common issues with the playback system:

Poorly engineered loudspeakers that unduly emphasise areas of the frequency response resulting in a sound that is too bright or harsh.

Poor matching of amplifier to loudspeaker load (same result as above)

Incorrect gain staging resulting in overload.

Highly reflective listening environment (lack of furniture, carpets, curtains) resulting in excessive treble energy and 'bounce' (most likely cause of so called 'digital glare.')

Use of 'boutique' digital playback equipment (NOS or filterless DACs etc) where results will be unpredictable and dependant on the nature of the programme.

[dave2010]

I was staggered on a recent visit to an HMV store. Most of the racks are now devoted to LPs and they are are also selling turntables. I'm guessing a [perhaps hopefully temporary] triumph of hope over experience. I get the feeling that vinyl discs and turntables are fashion items - and marketing drives the sales. Vinyl and turntable even feature in TV series - such as Bosch - product placement. I thought at first that some episodes of Bosch were set in previous times - but no - they are clearly pretty much up to date!

[Jimbo]

From my experience if comparing vinyl with CD(digital) then generally the aural experience can be quite different, even when listening to recordings on each medium taken from the same master recording, obviously the equipment used in both cases can and will have an impact to. I believe though the difference between the two is primarily due to the transcription process of each being distinctly different and each has its own unique compression/decompression methods.

Vinyl has to mechanically manage low frequencies(bass) and the impact it has in trying to get a small needle to follow if not compressed would be an impractically large groove, the upper frequencies are not so affected but getting accurate high end frequencies recorded and reproduced with vinyl is also a challenge.

Digital recording works completely differently and faces no such issues, but what does impact it is accurate timing and loss of data when trying to recreate an analogue signal, we are all familiar with the terms frequency rate, over-sampling, error correction and clocking which are aspects/methods of trying to eradicate issues with digital.

I have a reasonably large collection of vinyl(1600+), collected over the last 8 years, 90% purchased at charity shops, used records shops or friends collections given to me. I also have around 600 CDs and quite a large number of digital files (mp3, CD equivalent and Flac).

I returned to vinyl for several reasons, mainly because I realised that I like the way it sounds, since the early 80s I found CDs sound reproduction frustrating, it fluctuated from superb to awful depending on how, who or what had produced it, having said that you also get good and appalling records. The other reason I started re-collecting vinyl was it gave me an interest and hobby whilst I came to terms with my heart problems and it got me out and took my mind of it.

So where am I now, I suppose my preferred listening experience is vinyl, although this is using what most would consider a not inexpensive turntable, cartridge and phono-stage amp, not top end but does a very good job, I know some who have spent double or more with not much gain in SQ in IMHO. I also listen to CDs with an Audiolab 8300cdq(very capable CDP) and to be honest it is very good and at times more revealing(accurate) than vinyl. I also listen to digital streaming, with Rpi/HiFiBerry spdif(Volumio) to DAC and with a microRendu, I have tried TIDAL, Spotify, QObuz, used ROON and Audirvāna. I find it very difficult to say one is much better than the other reproducing the same digital files. However if you compare the cost between the vinyl replay setup and the digital replay, be it CDP or streaming, then the difference in cost is huge, in the order of 10 to 20 times that for vinyl to that of digital to get a similar level of SQ.

So in all honesty the bottom line for me is that for value for money and SQ digital wins hands down, especially if you have never heard vinyl reproduction at a good level. However I love the way vinyl sounds especially with a good record, I have never quite put my finger on why but I think it is the dynamic feeling it can portray, somehow this can be lost with digital, just a thought, it’s not necessarily better just different.

Great post!

[Jimbo]

I was staggered on a recent visit to an HMV store. Most of the racks are now devoted to LPs and they are are also selling turntables. I'm guessing a [perhaps hopefully temporary] triumph of hope over experience. I get the feeling that vinyl discs and turntables are fashion items - and marketing drives the sales. Vinyl and turntable even feature in TV series - such as Bosch - product placement. I thought at first that some episodes of Bosch were set in previous times - but no - they are clearly pretty much up to date!

Just read a report on Munich Hifi show and chap mentioned there were so many turntables there they actually outnumbered speakers. Way more than in previous years.

[Pigmy Pony]

Just read a report on Munich Hifi show and chap mentioned there were so many turntables there they actually outnumbered speakers. Way more than in previous years.

I suspect a lot of high-end turntables will be bought on looks rather than sound (although I don't doubt they are all competent) by people with money to burn. Because they've seen stuff in films and TV which looked cool. Then they'll spend a few hundred on a handful of well recorded LPs to impress visitors with.

[AJSki2fly]

Great post!

Thanks James

[Jimbo]

I suspect a lot of high-end turntables will be bought on looks rather than sound (although I don't doubt they are all competent) by people with money to burn. Because they've seen stuff in films and TV which looked cool. Then they'll spend a few hundred on a handful of well recorded LPs to impress visitors with.

That maybe the case but it also goes for much of the equipment shown at Munich?

[struth]

no doubt many people buy on looks as much as performance, especially at high end level. not many going to pay 100k for a dogs dinner look.

[Pigmy Pony]

Good looking needn't cost the earth

https://live.staticflickr.com/1694/23653998550_2716d2cef4_b.jpg

[Jimbo]

They look smashin!

[sailor]

Hey Steve, those Dahlquist DQ10's are great. I assume they are yours and not copied from the net. The weak point is the piezo tweeter and a popular mod was to replace it and the next tweeter in line with something better so it becomes a 4 instead of a 5-way speaker. Enjoy.

[CageyH]

Good looking needn't cost the earth

https://live.staticflickr.com/1694/23653998550_2716d2cef4_b.jpg

Matt0404 seems to be happy with them.

[Lawrence001]

You can also get great results from the Pioneer PL-12D and Goldring (Lenco) GL75. Both of which can still be found at sensible prices if you're lucky. Strangely, the Thorens seems to be the least costly, but I regard it as the best.The TD150s I've seen are more than the others, I still see them at c. £100 whereas it's hard to find a TD150II under £150 or more.

[WESTLOWER]

Good looking needn't cost the earth

https://live.staticflickr.com/1694/23653998550_2716d2cef4_b.jpg
:lol:

[Lawrence001]

They have a certain functional look about them. The Lloyds of London of speakers if you like.

[Pigmy Pony]

At $12,600 I think these are a steal, considering the price of copper these days.

https://technabob.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/steampunk_speakers_1.jpg

[Jimbo]

A head of their time with built in floor suspension/Isolation?

[walpurgis]

The Dalquist was a decent sounding speaker from what I recall of hearing it a couple of times years ago. Interesting choice of drive units, the bass driver being from The Advent Loudspeaker.

[walpurgis]

At $12,600 I think these are a steal, considering the price of copper these days.

https://technabob.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/steampunk_speakers_1.jpg

I'm not sure I can say anything polite about those :).

(the 'designer' appears to have been looking through old Empire brochures)

[Jimbo]

Steam Punk Speakers.

[Pigmy Pony]

I'm not sure I can say anything polite about those :).

(the 'designer' appears to have been looking through old Empire brochures)

Politeness not required, they're hideous. As James says, steampunk. It's a fashion that's getting into everything, including clothing and crap like this

https://motoridersuniverse.com/uploads/blogs/cb/4f/960/51658660c3ec915cb4f.jpg

[Pharos]

The clothing available in this country for about 30 years has been dreadful; all made from guillotined lengths of plastic tube, no fit, and feels awful especially after a few washes, then feeling like Velcroe hooks against the skin.

In the last ten years trainers have become leatherless, and very expensive. For shoes we have Clarkes at double prices, and these are often not well made.

[nonuffin]

Politeness not required, they're hideous. As James says, steampunk. It's a fashion that's getting into everything, including clothing and crap like this

https://motoridersuniverse.com/uploads/blogs/cb/4f/960/51658660c3ec915cb4f.jpg

It must only be a show item as I don't see a chain from the drive sprocket to the rear wheel. Awful looking bag of shite :mental:

[Pigmy Pony]

It must only be a show item as I don't see a chain from the drive sprocket to the rear wheel. Awful looking bag of shite :mental:

Ha! I hadn't even noticed that - if it doesn't even work, what IS the point :scratch:

[Pigmy Pony]

Apologies to CageyH, we seem to have drifted a bit :)

[Lawrence001]

Ha! I hadn't even noticed that - if it doesn't even work, what IS the point :scratch:I believe it's a work of steampunk art. A bit like Tracey Emin's bed. Although you could still lie on that. Or was it a tent...

[Jimbo]

I am surprised no one has put out a steam punk turntable yet although looking at some of the offerings at the extreme end of the market they are nearly hitting steam punk design?:rolleyes:

[walpurgis]

I am surprised no one has put out a steam punk turntable yet

Well there have been steam turntables, but how punk they might be I don't know.

[Pigmy Pony]

Well there have been steam turntables, but how punk they might be I don't know.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a3/9b/83/a39b8397d8801bf371f446d0bb5742f6.jpg

[Pieoftheday]

Politeness not required, they're hideous. As James says, steampunk. It's a fashion that's getting into everything, including clothing and crap like this

https://motoridersuniverse.com/uploads/blogs/cb/4f/960/51658660c3ec915cb4f.jpgyou'd have to be Peter Crouch to reach the bars from that seat

[Jimbo]

Modern Steam Punk turntable?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRmHYu5xM8o

[AJSki2fly]

Modern Steam Punk turntable?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRmHYu5xM8o

Just plain stupidly ridiculous, but someone will buy it because they can.:doh:

[Jimbo]

Not sure if there are too many Oligarchs buying these at the moment!:)

[struth]

Not sure if there are too many Oligarchs buying these at the moment!:)


https://youtu.be/_YMVPXmaKds