Worth the hassle changing tonearm on a 1210.

[Mikeandvan]

Had this rather lovely 1210 newer model. Gr or whatever uts called for 1 or 2 yes now. It came with jello tonearm board and I happen to have a 750 arm, is it worth the hassle swapping it out? The TT as it is sounds OK to me. Currently using a cart which missing Marco sold me. Sc35c. I have a nagsoka mp200 replacement styli but no cart body! Don't really wanna spend another bloody 350 on a mp200 just to get the body. I had the jello on there before but thar was 1 ir 2 years ago. I don't remember whether it was any better or how well I got it set up. One thing for sure. I love the 1210s. Usability is outstanding. Just moved flats as well a d listening room/lounge seems acoustically better. Higher ceiling. Liste I g now loads of detail. Not bad for a cheap cart. Something tells me movi g to the jello arm will make fuck all difference but I could be wrong ! If anyone's got zn unused mp200 lying around give us it!
Currently using Flickr mobileb and unable to post pics direct. But links work well. For me a yay!

https://flic.kr/p/2n2pdCW

https://flic.kr/p/2n2o1Av

https://flic.kr/p/2n2qX6v

[CageyH]

https://images.app.goo.gl/tPymudDZizyj35AC6

In my experience, yes, but it depends on the arm and the cartridge and how well they work together.

[AJSki2fly]

Hi Mike,

Hope you are keeping well. IMO and experience for what it's worth changing to the Jelco 750 is likely to be worth doing, if it will work with the SC35C, you are likely to find you will get more detail and better definition, but take care setting it up, for Tracking, VTA, etc. Jelco arms are very good, and often overlooked, I used to have one and it was great.

I have also found that if you want better detail, soundstage and separation then going for a better cartridge that works with your arm, the Jelco, is often the next step, either a top notch MM or a good MC like a HANA, Benz Micro or Ortofon, but a MC will also mean a phono stage or step up transformer so yet more cost.

[Barry]

Whilst I do not have any experience of either the Technics 1210 arm or of the Jelco 750D arm, the mechanical characteristics of the two arms are similar.

The effective mass for the Technics arm is 12.0g, and for the Jelco arm it is 13.48g. Not much different. But you are using a Shure SC35C, having a (static) compliance of 5cu and a mass of 6.2g. So when mounted in either arm the arm/cartridge resonant frequency will be high (~ 23Hz with the Technics arm, and ~22.5Hz with the Jelco arm). Both of these figures are too high. Ideally they should be no more than 14 Hz. To achieve this you ought to add some mass to the headshell.

However if you are happy with the Shure mounted in the Technics arm then leave things as they are.

[PeteT]

Just a thought... If you fit the JELCO...

I have a Hana SH spare that I could sent you to try out, just to test the water so to speak.

It's a High output MC, so could work with what you've already got.

Sent using Tapatalk

[Mikeandvan]

Thanks to all replies. I'm using the Shure with added weight. Was also thinking of the high output hans cart. Seems popular. No longer have a mc stage so oy interested in mm or high output mcs. Would like to fig my nag mp200 again though. Wonder can I use the styli with the cheaper mo range?

[Mikeandvan]

Thanks Pete. But you shouldn't trust me with your carts!

[PeteT]

Thanks Pete. But you shouldn't trust me with your carts!It's an offer, still stands if you want to try one, and I'm also in Brighton, so no postage.!


Sent using Tapatalk

[walpurgis]

If you fancy doing it for the way it will look. Go for it!


But I do agree with Barry. I can't see that there'd be much gain sonically.



Whilst I do not have any experience of either the Technics 1210 arm or of the Jelco 750D arm, the mechanical characteristics of the two arms are similar.

The effective mass for the Technics arm is 12.0g, and for the Jelco arm it is 13.48g. Not much different. But you are using a Shure SC35C, having a (static) compliance of 5cu and a mass of 6.2g. So when mounted in either arm the arm/cartridge resonant frequency will be high (~ 23Hz with the Technics arm, and ~22.5Hz with the Jelco arm). Both of these figures are too high. Ideally they should be no more than 14 Hz. To achieve this you ought to add some mass to the headshell.

However if you are happy with the Shure mounted in the Technics arm then leave things as they are.

[Mikeandvan]

It's an offer, still stands if you want to try one, and I'm also in Brighton, so no postage.!


Sent using Tapatalk

Yay, finally a hifi buddy!

[Mikeandvan]

I like Barry's advice, gonna leave the stock arm on. I'm only interested in MM carts now as the styli can be changed, so much more economical. So, anyone got a nag mp200 body lying around? Failing that I'll try a Goldring I think.

[mikeyb]

Arm is already decent enough, I'd change the headshell though [emoji6]

I ran mine with a Misson 774 arm after the stock arm mind you, and eventually a Fidelity Research FR64fx.

I was able to upgrade in stages with less cash at the time than forking out for a better TT in one go.

But to be honest, I wouldn't go that route again.

[Macca]

IMO the stock arm is the only weak point on the deck, it's okay - until you hear it with a better arm.

Most of the other mods are either marginal or pointless.

I'd put the better arm on it and sort out a compatible cartridge/headshell.

Also replace stock rubber mat with a Funk Firm Achromat, that's worth doing.

[Mikeandvan]

IMO the stock arm is the only weak point on the deck, it's okay - until you hear it with a better arm.

Most of the other mods are either marginal or pointless.

I'd put the better arm on it and sort out a compatible cartridge/headshell.

Also replace stock rubber mat with a Funk Firm Achromat, that's worth doing.

I reckon the stock arm is good enough for the carts I run. The TT came with a nice solid rubber Ayoaide mat.

[Macca]

Yes it is good enough but a better arm does make a big improvement in sound quality. I was sceptical too until it was demonstrated to me.

[walpurgis]

It's a question of economics. It will not be cheap to fit an alternative tonearm that would substantially upgrade the sound.

It may take a better arm than the Jelco 750 to make the expense worthwhile.

[mikeyb]

Misson 774 arm would be my choice, not the LC one.

An armboard from Magna Audio too.

[worrasf]

Misson 774 arm would be my choice, not the LC one.

An armboard from Magna Audio too.+1 for the original Mission 774.
Amazingly versatile arm and works superbly on the 1210. I have previously used Jelco 750 and TK850s and prefer the Mission. I've used it with MM's including Decca Supergold and high and low output MC's with great results. The DL-304 (and DL-160) work particularly well.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220212/a2a605c51701f7a50548fa4bfbf0b9df.jpg

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

[PeteT]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220212/a2a605c51701f7a50548fa4bfbf0b9df.jpg


That looks rather like a DL304.! Very nice they are too.!

Sent using Tapatalk

[worrasf]

That looks rather like a DL304.! Very nice they are too.!

Sent using TapatalkSpot on. Sounds wonderful in this setup with a Firebottle phonostage

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

[Mikeandvan]

Been using the stock arm with the Shure cart for a couple of weeks in this new flat, also took out the Slee era v stage as the S500 has its own phono stage and all seems fine. In fact overall sound is better in this flat, room is about same size but with significantly higher ceilings, not bad at all. Just need to get some new cart sorted. Think the nag might be too lush for this new set up, need something more neutral and dynamic maybe. Upto £300, MM only.

[Macca]

Audio Technica or Ortofon.

[Mikeandvan]

Audio Technica or Ortofon.

I've had a couple of 2M blue actually, they were decent.

[Macca]

all cartridges these days should be at least decent. Personally I'd keep the Nag and get rid of the 'lushness' by change the speakers and amp.:D

[I.D.S.]

Jelco arms are fetching strong money if you decide to move it on. Considering selling mine and sticking the Techno arm i can't sell back on my 'techie'.

[Mikeandvan]

all cartridges these days should be at least decent. Personally I'd keep the Nag and get rid of the 'lushness' by change the speakers and amp.:D

Yeh, I'm about ready to try a solid state amp again actually.

[walpurgis]

Yeh, I'm about ready to try a solid state amp again actually.

What have you got in mind?

[Mikeandvan]

What have you got in mind?

Was thinking Sugden a21a, seem to sell around 500+ mark, so not too spendy. Speaker wise I don't know, stand mounts or small floorstanders. I just want a speaker which is neutral, the Audio Note's I have now, don't seem made for all types of music, though are very pleasing with jazz, so much that they dictate the music I select. I played Scott Walker '4' last night and it was mushy as hell, no good at all. I've also had 2 types of Spendor in the past, and I found them very strange indeed, a small reedy sound, lasted about a day then were booted out. So just a normal speaker really, whilst trying to avoid anything with a fame for harshness or any other 'ness'!

[walpurgis]

Was thinking Sugden a21a

Should be nice.

Speakers are hard to choose, maybe something with a good ribbon tweeter might work.

[Macca]

Old Wharfedales for me usually manage to get a good blend of being easy to listen to without losing too much clarity.

Old KEF also worth considering, usually technically very good but with a warm balance, maybe not into the 1990s but you could look at something from the 1980s 'C' series

Lot of reviews of them here http://www.hifi-review.com/series/kef-c-series.html

Just trying to think of something that would suit you from all you've said. The KEFs would work fine with your AI or with a Sugden and they're not 'on the radar' so you can still get them cheap.

[Barry]

Should be nice.

Speakers are hard to choose, maybe something with a good ribbon tweeter might work.

During my student days, I built a 'Chinese copy' of the A21. (I knew someone who knew Jim Sugden, so was able to get the PCBs for me at cost.)

The amp was used with speakers using a Wharfedale RS8DD driver in a 1.2cu.ft distributed rear port Wharfedale design.

[Mikeandvan]

Old Wharfedales for me usually manage to get a good blend of being easy to listen to without losing too much clarity.

Old KEF also worth considering, usually technically very good but with a warm balance, maybe not into the 1990s but you could look at something from the 1980s 'C' series

Lot of reviews of them here http://www.hifi-review.com/series/kef-c-series.html

Just trying to think of something that would suit you from all you've said. The KEFs would work fine with your AI or with a Sugden and they're not 'on the radar' so you can still get them cheap.

Cheers, I'll get on Ebay and have a look for those, just won a Sugden a21a off it for £533 with a 'stealth' last minute bid. If I like it, I'll send it back to Sugden and get an internal phono stage fitted.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/115249114685?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2750.l2648

[walpurgis]

Cheers, I'll get on Ebay and have a look for those, just won a Sugden a21a off it for £533 with a 'stealth' last minute bid. If I like it, I'll send it back to Sugden and get an internal phono stage fitted.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/115249114685?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2750.l2648

That's the one I'd been casting an eye over :).

[Mikeandvan]

That's the one I'd been casting an eye over :).

Aha, I only saw it yesterday, hope its all sound, seller seems ok. Thought the price was pretty good, would have paid upto 600.

[Macca]

Cheers, I'll get on Ebay and have a look for those, just won a Sugden a21a off it for £533 with a 'stealth' last minute bid. If I like it, I'll send it back to Sugden and get an internal phono stage fitted.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/115249114685?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2750.l2648

Looks very tidy, good buy.

I wanted one for years but the price was always going up faster than my wages. They were about £600 in the early 1990s IIRC.

[Mikeandvan]

Bloody Sugden has a fault, connected the ANJs and CD player up to it, and the sound is cutting in and out, plus the alen screws on top are well worn, sign of tinkering!

[Mikeandvan]

Sent the sugden back to the seller, he claims it works fine, even though I had it connected to a cd player, and out to my ANJs, what could be the issue here, apart from the sellers honesty?

[Macca]

could have been a loose connection.

At least he's had it back and you can look for something else. The world is awash with used amplifiers.

[AJSki2fly]

Was thinking Sugden a21a, seem to sell around 500+ mark, so not too spendy. Speaker wise I don't know, stand mounts or small floorstanders. I just want a speaker which is neutral, the Audio Note's I have now, don't seem made for all types of music, though are very pleasing with jazz, so much that they dictate the music I select. I played Scott Walker '4' last night and it was mushy as hell, no good at all. I've also had 2 types of Spendor in the past, and I found them very strange indeed, a small reedy sound, lasted about a day then were booted out. So just a normal speaker really, whilst trying to avoid anything with a fame for harshness or any other 'ness'!

Not sure if you are still considering speakers Mike, I saw these and thought of you, these might just be the ticket whether using your valve or a new SS amp.

https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?74699-Tannoy-Monitor-Golds-12-quot-LSU-12-8-HF-in-cabinets-with-crossovers

[Mikeandvan]

Not sure if you are still considering speakers Mike, I saw these and thought of you, these might just be the ticket whether using your valve or a new SS amp.

https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?74699-Tannoy-Monitor-Golds-12-quot-LSU-12-8-HF-in-cabinets-with-crossovers

Thanks, but other end of the country!

[337alant]

I like Barry's advice, gonna leave the stock arm on. I'm only interested in MM carts now as the styli can be changed, so much more economical. So, anyone got a nag mp200 body lying around? Failing that I'll try a Goldring I think.

Mike I just rewired my SL1200 stock tone arm with Cardas internally and Klotz MC5000 externally and very happy with the result, really opens it up, sound stage and 3d detail so much better IMO

Alan

[Mikeandvan]

Got a 'RigB' AT 540ML, put it on my GR, but it's as heavy a brick, what the fuh do I do now?

[CageyH]

Got a 'RigB' AT 540ML, put it on my GR, but it's as heavy a brick, what the fuh do I do now?
Fit the auxiliary tone arm weight. There are two available for the new SL1200.

[Mikeandvan]

Fit the auxiliary tone arm weight. There are two available for the new SL1200.

I've mislaid my one, just ordered another off ebay, might need to be heavier though, this Rigb is like a fucking brick!

[Macca]

I've mislaid my one, just ordered another off ebay, might need to be heavier though, this Rigb is like a fucking brick!

Blu tak mate

[CageyH]

I've mislaid my one, just ordered another off ebay, might need to be heavier though, this Rigb is like a fucking brick!

There is a small, and a big one. Get the big one.

Part number TPAKK62.

[Mikeandvan]

There is a small, and a big one. Get the big one.

Part number TPAKK62.

Got the 16g one, not sure whether that's big or small, but its' done the job nicely, just gotta wait for my digital stylus gauge now as my current one stopped working.

[Mikeandvan]

Finally get around to fitting the RigB 540ml and can't find any of my alignment thingies for the cartirdge placement within the headshell, fuck it

[Mikeandvan]

Read up online overhang for this cart/arm is 15mm, so measure 52mm from start of headshell, and fix cart there, it measures pretty close to the Notts analogue protractor that I finally found, this Rigb'd 540ML is sounding pretty good indeed now, was £240 i think, not bad at all for that money.

[Mikeandvan]

After a months listening I can tell you the Rigb 540ML is rather metallic sounding, which should come as no surprise! It has great presence and separation, but just too damn tinny. I will try the standard 540 and see if that cures it. May be a wooden body would have been better, or may be it's just a characteristic of the 540 and I'm jumping the gun?

[CageyH]

Can you vary the capacitance loading on your phono stage?

[Mikeandvan]

Can you vary the capacitance loading on your phono stage?

No

[Mikeandvan]

Can you vary the capacitance loading on your phono stage?

Graham slee era V Gold