Comparing amplifiers

[Sansiiro]

I have had B&W 603 floorstanders with 2 XTZ Edge A2-300 (class D) power amplifiers
(and Topping Pre90) for about a year now (in a big space, 60m2).

But from the very start I noticed, that this does not work for harder rock music.
It feels small, feeble, thin, compact, irritating. It feels unlistenable. The highs get very
loud, if I crank it up, it sounds like a thousand mosquitos singing.

So yesterday I decided to have a go with a different amplifier. In the bedroom system I
use a Onkyo A-6130 (class AB), so yes, I had postponed this switch for about a year. I don't
really like to shuffle too much.

XTZ blocks cost three times the price of Onkyo, so yes - all the accuracy, refinement and clearness
was lost, when I set the Onkyo up in my main listening room. So this rock music did not have a high
quality sound in very many ways, but it DID have some more body, more meat on the bone, more
volume, I think at the mid-range especially. So it actually sounded right, it was more listenable.

The previous experience in comparison with XTZ could be summarized as a truck, that only has wheels.
It is fast and it drives the same distance, but it does not have the load, the cargo-box. And it is kind
of pointless (when listening rock music), it does not sound right.

So thats all from me today. I guess I will be looking some class AB poweramps.

[Macca]

90% of what you hear is the speakers and the room.

is your room sparsely furnished, hard floors, etc? If so I'd look at doing something about that first.

Also maybe use some EQ. I don't think you will solve the problem changing the amplifiers and the speakers are decent if not the last word.

[Pharos]

I agree completely with Macca.

[Sansiiro]

The room is far from perfect. I have no treatment apart from a carpet infront of system.
But I feel like I got more body out of that Onkyo.
Some calibration tool would definitely be interesting to try.

30015

[Macca]

You said you tried the Onkyo in the bedroom system though. At least there you have the bed and mattress as a big damper.

If the XTZ amps were a bit weak then I'd have said that's your issue but they will have no problem driving those speakers optimally.

I use a little bit of dedicated room treatment but that's all I need as I have two big padded sofas, wall to wall carpet with rugs over the top, thick curtains (floor to ceiling on one wall) and lots of clutter to diffuse HF energy.

If you can post a couple of pics of the room as it is now then that will help with suggestions, room treatment doesn't need to look intrusive or ugly.

edit - Sorry now I've re-read your post I see you tried the Onkyo in the main room.

[Puffin]

That is a large and awkward room. How far are the speakers from the wall behind them? What is the floor covering and is that a doorway behind the Left speaker?

[Sansiiro]

To be clear - I have so far used 2x XTZ (class D) in the main room, and Onkyo (AB) in the bedroom.

(By the way, Onkyo sounds very good in the bedroom with Elac Debut bookshelf speakers.
Bedroom is smaller and more symmetric, I feel like it is quite ideal acoustically.
I have not tested XTZ there that much, but I kind of suspect it's rock-related characteristic will be repeated).

Just yesterday I switched the amplification! Onkyo is not as refined as XTZ in living room,
but it seems to give rock music more of that very-needed mid-range-volume and body.
Although again - it sounds bad doing it.

Right speaker is 70 cm from the bookshelf, and left one 130 cm from the doorway.
There is no proper door, but there is a carpet on the floor.

3001630017

[Opti-cal]

Just looking at the equipment and setup quickly, it is a big space to fill 'properly'.

Volume-wise you can probably get there but it probably won't sound too pleasant. A lot of hard surfaces and also the wall next to the right hand speaker won't be doing anything good acoustically and becasue you don't have the symmetry with the left speaker (which is just out in open space) it's unlikely to be able to create a solid image and indeed much lower mid-range and low end. The highs could be a bit shrill due to the aforementioned hard surfaces and indeed the equipment. The XTZ's are good amps but being Class D they are neutral, some would say a little clinical and unexciting. I have no direct experience of them but I have had experience with Ice Power amps and Temple Audio mono's both of which do have similarities.

The Topping pre is also known to be a little clinical, in my experience to get the best from Class D amplifiers a tube preamp can really bring them to life or indeed an active preamp which is on the warmer side of neutral.

I'm having trouble finding specs or anything on your Onkyo A-6130S, all I can seem to find is a network streamer? I do like the sound of most Onkyo amps I've heard though, usually sound a lot more powerful than they actually are.

As others have suggested the room is probably robbing you of a lot of elements of the music here. The mid-range and lower end is slightly missing and the low end doesn't have much impact I'll bet. The highs are probably there but by the time you get to any sort of volume when the drivers start to deliver some low end grunt and bass, the highs have become too much.


My suggestions would be to play with placements and room interaction first, you might do better swapping your hifi for where your TV is or even better than that (I suspect) putting your hifi in front of the window 90 degrees to the left of where your TV is. Then hanging some big curtains directly behind it. That would use the parallel walls to act as a symetrical and more predictable listening space where in my experience, things should sound a lot better.

You could also try putting a few more soft furnishings around, like a duvet or pillows in the corners or some curtains along the sliding door but it's still a massive space to fill properly.

If none of that is working it may be your preamp is just a bit sterile and lacking with your XTZ's, I know it measures very well but sometimes components just do not have the synergy.


Don't give up hope, I've had systems sounding horrible at first but after careful room tweaking/speaker placement as well as changing some (not all) components, things have always turned out well. I don't give up until it does!

[Macca]

You've got a bright room with quite bright speakers, and you have the speakers well out into free space, so your not getting any boundary reinforcement for the bass end.

I reckon if measured you would have an FR curve sloping upwards from the bass to the top end - this is exactly the opposite to an in room response that will sound good.

I agree with Chris re the layout, moving the system to where the TV is now would help. Thicker rug and heavy fabric curtains instead of the blinds.

Put the speakers 1 foot away from the wall (about 30cm) and then fine tune position from there.

If that doesn't improve things enough, or you can't do that for domestic reasons, then I'd look at EQ, either digital or analogue, as being the only solution. You won't solve the issue changing the amplification. What you have already is fine IMO.

[Macca]

Incidentally there was recently someone on another forum with the same issue. Class D amps, sound was cold and sterile.

He fixed it by just using the level controls built into his speakers, top turned down, bottom end dialled up. Sorted.

He thought it was the 'character' of the amplifiers at first too.

[hifinutt]

just recently a tannoy owner was raving about his new xtz edge amps . how good they were . as has been said it depends on the amp . i can use class d beautifully on my tannoys but not on other speakers

the class D i have is most certainly not cold and sterile !! been using class D for about 15 years on and off

[Sansiiro]

I like the thorough feedback, Martin and Chris.

Of course, the Onkyo is A-9130, the 6130 indeed is a network player.

Fortunately(?) I can tell you that both of them alternative placements I have tried.
I started from where the TV is (see the pic). But what was the problem, the sound
was too intense. And I am not even speaking about hard-rock. It seemed too much
for my ears, it seemed too aggressive, listening to anything. Due to small space I could not
move backwards, and I did not want my head or the speakers against the wall.
I wanted to put the carpet on the wall behind me, but my wife became opposed to the idea.

Also I tried them "on the left" in front of window, but this setting felt very awkward for
both of us, it did not feel right, I could not even properly listen to them before I
started moving everything back. It was not about the sound. Yes, it had more bass.

In the current position the sound felt more open, more relaxed. Though it lost some focus.

What I have often thought of is moving the main system to bedroom, and perhaps
one day I will. Our bedroom is smaller, but it is still spacious enough.
I have been very excited there with them Elac debuts. Another idea is to substitute
these Debuts with Uni-Fi Reference (bookshelf) and do my main listening there.

For now I can also bring the the Denafrips Ares and preamp to bedroom,
so I will have a new experience upstairs soon.

But perhaps before the AB monoblocks it will be useful to look into some sound-calibration gear, indeed.

3001830019

[Pharos]

My instinct is that those speakers are not really up to the job of driving that room, and they will have to be turned up a lot to be good on rock.

The left picture gives what my instinct says is the right sort of speaker driving ability, to room size.

[AJSki2fly]

I like the thorough feedback, Martin and Chris.

Of course, the Onkyo is A-9130, the 6130 indeed is a network player.

Fortunately(?) I can tell you that both of them alternative placements I have tried.
I started from where the TV is (see the pic). But what was the problem, the sound
was too intense. And I am not even speaking about hard-rock. It seemed too much
for my ears, it seemed too aggressive, listening to anything. Due to small space I could not
move backwards, and I did not want my head or the speakers against the wall.
I wanted to put the carpet on the wall behind me, but my wife became opposed to the idea.

Also I tried them "on the left" in front of window, but this setting felt very awkward for
both of us, it did not feel right, I could not even properly listen to them before I
started moving everything back. It was not about the sound. Yes, it had more bass.

In the current position the sound felt more open, more relaxed. Though it lost some focus.

What I have often thought of is moving the main system to bedroom, and perhaps
one day I will. Our bedroom is smaller, but it is still spacious enough.
I have been very excited there with them Elac debuts. Another idea is to substitute
these Debuts with Uni-Fi Reference (bookshelf) and do my main listening there.

For now I can also bring the the Denafrips Ares and preamp to bedroom,
so I will have a new experience upstairs soon.

But perhaps before the AB monoblocks it will be useful to look into some sound-calibration gear, indeed.

3001830019

Two observation from your photos and room plan

When you had them by the wooden wall you are sitting very close to the wall behind you, assuming you do not move the sofa forward, in this position you will get all sorts of bass re-enforcement which is likely to sound odd.

In all your sitting positions as now and in the two pictures you are quite a long way back from the speakers. Because you have larger speakers it does not mean you will be able to sit 4m or more away from them and still get a great soundstage, definition and focus. A lot of people make this mistake and it took me a while to realise that often speakers work best around 2 to 2.5m apart (6-8 feet) and that the listening position should be if at all possible at the 3rd point of an equilateral triangle in relation to the speakers, you can try stretching the distance away from the speakers to about 1.5 times the width they are apart. As you move further away you will quickly hear a change in focus, definition and bass depth and detail.

Have a look at https://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/waspe.html it is very useful, I found it very helpful and helped me understand some of the issues with speaker placement.

[Opti-cal]

Okay Veiko,

I hear what you are saying, it sounds like a very problematic room and as Dennis suggests it could be that the speakers simply do not fill the space at all resulting in thin sound and 'over-driving' to get anywhere near a satisfactory level.

However I must reiterate that in all my experience moving the system to the left of the TV would result in a far more engaging sound simply due to the dimensions and physical makeup of the room. I know you said you tried it here and I am not questioning your results but did you set it up in this (quickly knocked up) edit of your image?

https://i.ibb.co/kcYLjRh/IMG-20201205-193912.jpg (https://ibb.co/9YRx6Fq)

So speakers maybe 30-40cm away from the side walls and 60-70cm (different to the side walls) away from the rear wall (with the window/glass). The window/glass may also be messing up the sound quite a lot so if you could hang a rug or drapes/curtains where the green circle is, it would undoubtedly improve things. Listening area indicated by the red rectangle at the bottom of the image, just beyond an equilateral triangle from the speakers, but you can try it further away or closer too.

I could be completely wrong of course as rooms do behave differently but that area gives you the best chance of getting your hifi sounding at its best, again, only in my experience but it has successfully worked every time.

As you say you couldn't listen to the sound in this configuration I suspect you didn't move the speakers around trying different distances between the side walls and the rear wall? This would be 100% worth doing as there can be a fine line between things sounding awful and then suddenly everything snapping into place and focus, sometimes a couple of inches can make all the difference.


If all else fails EQing is certainly an option as Macca suggests. I use it myself to great effect but a word of warning, if you're not getting the frequencies you want in the sound (in this case low end and lower mid-range), boosting frequencies with EQ can be dangerous for the drivers of the speakers. I myself only use EQ to cut frequencies (room nodes which collect in the room) which allows other frequencies to come through more prominently and the speakers to 'breath' a bit more, I don't believe this is the problem in the space you are currently using them in though. Having said that it may become a problem if you move them to the smaller area in that room, but it's an easier problem to rectify (having too much boom/bass rather than too little).

It's much better to cut/trim frequencies that are problematic than boost them as the sound often becomes unnatural when you boost things.

Also if you can use a parametric EQ in the digital domain, it will always sound better than using an analogue EQ tool, it is far more accurate and can utilize all sorts of notch and shelf filters/tools to rectify problems. With an analogue EQ tool it's usually just a set frequency which you make higher or lower, it can do the job but can usually be improved upon if you can attenuate the signal before it is made into an analogue one.


Let us know your thoughts on the above and how you get on.

[Macca]

Yes, cut don't boost is the basic rule for EQ.

A small boost over a narrow frequency band is fine, but if you want more bass, cut the top end, and vice versa.

[Opti-cal]

Yes, cut don't boost is the basic rule for EQ.

A small boost over a narrow frequency band is fine, but if you want more bass, cut the top end, and vice versa.

Yup, sounds like there is just no low end going on here though (thin sound) so cutting the top end to compensate (so overall power and volume actually increasing) could have the desired effect, but in my opinion the room is having too much of an effect to be able to get to a satisfactory outcome. Could be wrong, but I think it's going to be a lot easier to get a handle on all frequencies if the system is only having to fill a smaller and more symmetrical area first.

[walpurgis]

The room does look as though it has the potential to be acoustically awkward. Some worthwhile opinions have been expressed though. I think Chris's speaker positioning suggestion could be worth trying.

[Sansiiro]

I agree with the ideas. It was not of coincidence that I used the expression "thousand mosquitos singing",
so the high frequencies might very well need some trimming to get more pleasant sound.

However while we place the main blame on the room, I can still confirm my initial experience, that I seem
to have somewhat better results with the Onkyo, as long as the sound of rock in concerned.
Perhaps it has less high frequency to begin with. It is said that with more expensive gear bigger risks can occur,
as they can move to extremes.

I made some videos with my phone:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ULLAu4zM4Ek88vjn6


Lets say the Onkyo might not deliver some heavenly bliss there, BUT it reminds me far less of them "mosquitos".
Not to take anything away from the XTZ, I like them so much, I bought two.
Listening to softer music and electronic music with them has been great.

As of the alternate setting under the window. That was pretty much how I had things lined up. But the
problem why we did not keep the setting got nothing to do with the sound. For some reason
we just did not like our furniture and room that way, and that became very obvious very fast,
so (while it is hard to believe) I did not even get one decent session to evaluate the sound like that.
So You could be right, it could be a missed opportunity, but we can't use our room like that.

In the near future I will test the XTZ poweramp in the bedroom to see its response there.
Anyways, it will be interesting.

Adrian - I moved the couch away from the wall and I was about 2 meters from the speakers,
but to my ears it felt too intense. I even tried the sound-panel behind my head, but I felt like
I would prefer everything to feel more relaxed and open. More of that festival-vibe, if I can say that.

Edit: I had the preamp around -10 db

[Macca]

you want more relaxed sound then you could look at swapping out the B&W speakers.

Harbeth, Spendor Classic series, QUAD, or something BBC-derived from the 1970s. Anything with a 'BBC dip' essentially.

First thing I would do though is buy an analogue EQ unit and have a play. You can pick up professional units like Klark Teknik pretty cheap. Balanced inputs and outputs.

[zanash]

concur with all comments .....would also suggest the topping pre might be aiding and abetting the poor [bright ] sound. See if you can try a MFA tvc or similar to assess how much your pre is emasculating the audio signal.

[nonuffin]

I am currently running an XTZ Edge A2-300 power amp and it is far from bright or clinical sounding. Yes indeed the bass is very well controlled with not an ounce of fat or bloat, but that is what I enjoy the most from it.

Like many others have said, I too would say the room layout is mostly to blame and it is surprising just how much furniture and carpets can dampen a 'lively' room down. Some strategically placed large pot plants can also work wonders too.

[AJSki2fly]

I agree with the ideas. It was not of coincidence that I used the expression "thousand mosquitos singing",
so the high frequencies might very well need some trimming to get more pleasant sound.


Adrian - I moved the couch away from the wall and I was about 2 meters from the speakers,
but to my ears it felt too intense. I even tried the sound-panel behind my head, but I felt like
I would prefer everything to feel more relaxed and open. More of that festival-vibe, if I can say that.

Edit: I had the preamp around -10 db

Hello Veiko,

Depending on what your amp/speakers are putting out -10dB could be pretty high in volume, most people listen with music peaking around 75-80dB. If you are having to push over that them something is wrong.

Also bearing mind that if you have got used to hearing something in a particular way for some time then your brain will be to a certain extent pre-conditioned to expect it to be that way, so when you change things and hear your system differently it may take several days before your brain forgets about the previous sound experience. It may be that what you are now hearing is not wrong but different and not what you are used to.

I had a listen to the videos and not knowing the accuracy of your mobile phones mic it does sound odd, if it is an iPhone or Samsung they have pretty good mics. Several things that are obvious to me is that the speakers look to be too far apart from each other, you will get better resolution and soundstage if you bring them in to around 2m to 2.5m, also you are sitting far to far back from them. Bear with me and move them in and at the same time toe them in so that the drivers are pointing at your head, you may find that having their line of axis crossing over just in front of you improves it a bit more, some speakers are better like this. When you do this put you sitting position about 2.5m to 3m from the face of the speakers. Also note that the recommended position for the speakers by the manufacturers is 500mm from the wall.

Also do try out the set up https://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/waspe.html, it does work, I know it sounds odd walking back and forward clapping your hands and listening for when it sounds right but it does work, your ears are remarkably good at hearing when something is best, it will enable you to find the best position for the speakers, minimising unnecessary reflections and interactions. I would try several speaker positions, where you have them now, by the window, and in front of the wooden wall, but do the WASP for each.

Not sure if you have the earlier 603s or the S2's but something to note with the earlier B&W 603s reviews say much along these lines "Treble can overwhelm with some music", "Not the most relaxed sound", reviews of the S2's are all pretty good and several say a definite improvement over the earlier ones.

So your issues apart form the room and speaker position, may also be a reflection of the speakers, if earlier ones, and possibly being exaggerated in your room. HiFi News reported for S2's - "Distortion is very low through mid and treble (typ. <0.1% re. 90dB SPL) courtesy of the upgraded passives and CC midrange and DDD treble units, but the loading will not be a walk in the park for all amplifiers. Specifically, there's a broad sub-4ohm trench from 87Hz-700Hz and a tough minimum of 2.85ohm/124Hz coupled with relatively large swings in impedance phase from –72°/66Hz (9.1ohm) to +51°/1.26kHz (7.5ohm)." see https://www.hifinews.com/content/bw-603-s2-anniversary-edition-loudspeaker-lab-report

There is a technical review of your amps https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/xtz-edge-a2-300-review-amplifier.19419/ that implies that when driven hard they may have issues, so your speakers may be demanding too much of the amps, or to put it another way the combination may just not be that great, however Paul Rigby liked the amps a lot and he can be quite picky see https://theaudiophileman.com/edge-a2-300-amplifier-review-xtz/, but he was probably reviewing using his Spendor speakers.

I have struggled with speakers several times myself, as others will tell you on here. It is very easy to blame one piece of kit or another, I did to my cost several times. Once the issue was room placement not the speakers. However on the most recent occasion I had an amp that was not up to driving a pair of speakers especially at the lower end when things become more demanding for the amp, switched amps and presto the improvement was dramatic, and I now have a system that works.

I hope this helps a bit.

[Macca]

Are the power amps plugged directly into the wall or into some sort of mains block? They should be plugged straight into the wall sockets.

The video sounds okay through my laptop speakers, except there's no bass, but then there's no bass on my laptop speakers either. :)

[Firebottle]

Daft question, just trying to cover all bases.

Are the jumpers fitted across the rear terminals and are the terminals clean and tight?

I listened to the vids, they do sound rather bright.

[Pharos]

I am still of the view expressed earlier, this more so these days because I have been considering changing speakers.

Many high end ones are now available in progressively larger sizes, and they are often reviewed such that they are described as a particular size being best for any given room.

I was looking at the Vivid Giya S range, and reviewers refer often to a larger and more extended speaker being too large for a not so large room.

In other words the bass output needs to match the room, and can be either too little for a larger room, or too much for a smaller one.

When I moved to my current house I had ATC SCM 50As, but it quickly became obvious that they were lost in my large lounge. I then exchanged them for 100s and it was much better.

If you are sure of your room, then speakers to suit, can be done.

[Sansiiro]

I read carefully all of your inputs.
And I did some more listening.

One thing is clear and has been so for long, the combination "my livingroom - b&w603 - XTZ - ToppingPre90"
produce somewhat irritating and weightless (too high, thin) sound, when listening rock on a louder levels.
So much so that I have not liked to listen that kind of music there.

I have received many tips for the room treatment and speaker placement, and as much as possible,
I have tried these over the months. I believe the jumpers between the binding posts are set correctly,
amp(s) is plugged to DynaVox X4100 power-filter BUT to a non-filtered socket (!). Furthermore, I have
dedicated power-circles in my house for my set-ups, both in living-room and in bedroom.

So after trying another amp in my living room (Onkyo) I had somewhat different result,
the sound seemed more full-bodied (or maybe more balanced..?). I had the pre on -10 db, because believe it or not,
that amp only pushes 30W to 8 ohms. So I had to push it, the average volume was around 75 db.

So now what was left to do, was to take the XTZ amp to bedroom, to see what happens there. I also took
the Topping pre and Denafrips Ares II DAC along. Bedroom is as smaller room where I listened to that Onkyo
previously, with Elac Debut B6.2 booskshelfs, and I believe is acoustically superior room.

Yes, the "bedroom-elac-XTZ" sounded good. Although I feel that Onkyo still has more warmth and body there,
I felt like with the amount of "body" I received there with XTZ I could almost live with.

So the way I see it, a lot of is to blame - the room, the speakers (they are not S2, they are the regular 603), the amp,
and perhaps even preamp for little. There is not that much I can do about that room, and I don't think I will change much
with the pre-amp, so I will see weather I can get EQ for a reasonable price, a subwoofer perhaps. In the longer timeframe I
am looking for different monoblocks. I hear Schiit has got some nice ones.

By the way, Pete, I don't know what is "MFA tvc". Google did not help me either :scratch:

[walpurgis]

MFA is Music First Audio, who make transformer volume controls (TVC pre-amps). They are well regarded.

[Macca]

plug the power amplifiers directly into the wall socket, not into the power strip.

This may or may not improve things but it's worth trying as it will save you a few quid if it does.

[Pigmy Pony]

How about trying some transmission lines in place of your current speakers? Larger models like a good size room I'm told (which you have), and won't be lacking in the bass.

[Macca]

Yes, or one of the big bangers from the 1990s. Celestion A3, KEF Reference Model 4, something like that.

Would be a big upgrade to the system.

Not sure what availability is like in Estonia though.

[Lawrence001]

I'd agree with Martin having owned both in the past.

[Sansiiro]

Hello!

So I am comparing speakers and amps and had the working theory
about a particular system lacking mid-range-volume and therefore
being unable to represent certain music with much satisfaction.

I tried different variations and finally decided to put the room-factor
to the test, having two different systems to play at the same exact spot.

First of them is a system in question - B&W 603, Edge A2-300 monoblocks,
Topping Pre90, Denafrips Ares II, iFi Zen Stream
The second is - Estonia 35 AC, Onkyo A9130 integrated, Denafrips Ares II.

30119

"Estonia" speakers are from the year 1986, but in good condition.
They were bought by my father and manufactured here in Estonia by the
company "RET", which was founded in 1935 and is well respected here.
At 1992 after collapse of soviet union, it was rebranded "Audes",
as in "AUDio from EStonia". Also, a chief-engineer and owner of the high-end
company "Estelon" springed off from this company.
There are a lot of them speakers still around here, and I think one of their
best features is the indifference regarding placement. As in, they are very forgiving
in regard of where you put them.

This also became evident as I was listening them and doing AB with the B&W.
I can not say that the second system solved the said problems, not to the extent
that I would confirm. However I felt that B&W 603 made me constantly raise my head,
raise my chin, to kind of "process" the sound in my head, to piece it together like
a puzzle, I felt like the sound was not given to me straight, but I had to work and pay
attention. Like when you are looking at a glossy photo and you have to turn it around
so that you could see the colours well. And of course, it had the detail and crisp.

After I removed the second system I also tweaked the speaker-position a little, brought
them closer together, turned the right one more inwards, and moved my listening position
a little to the left. So now when I listen to main system I dont feel puzzled no more.
In fact, I like it very much. Listened to Cassie Kinoshi by the SEED Ensemble and loved it.

This also got me thinking - are there really many excellent settings for hard rock?
This question might be a red flag for some, but I start to think that some of them metal
bands are very difficult to represent in a way that would sound captivating, or to put it
more bluntly, audiophile-friendly. (After certain age???)
For example Guns N Roses - I have not had a system that would play them good. And this is
the band I have listened and loved a lot in my life, I did that as a teenager and I know
these songs inside out. At those times of course the thought of sound quality never entered
my head. I listened to it via very cheap gear and were happy as can be. After taking
interest in gear I have discovered it don't sound exciting to me no more. Perhaps it needs more
specific conditions.

Here they are in Tallinn 2018, before covid and war
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWCYozVutwU

Good times.

Thanks to all that weighed in