Phono stage suggestions

[rmcin626]

As some you may know I bought a Pathos Classic Remix Amp from Grant a few weeks ago, I am now thinking of a change to my Phono stage currently a Primare R32 , there is of course an obvious choice the Pathos in the Groove, which is around the £1500 mark.

Does anyone have any other suggestions or recommendations around that price mark or ideally cheaper. The Primare R32 is doing a fine job by the way and will be an excellent purchase for someone very soon.

[Firebottle]

Bigbottle BB3 at £1300. Has seen off virtually all other phono stages at multi £K.

[rmcin626]

Bigbottle BB3 at £1300. Has seen off virtually all other phono stages at multi £K.

Thanks Alan, not heard one but know it its well regarded.

[gninnam]

Bigbottle BB3 at £1300. Has seen off virtually all other phono stages at multi £K.

+1

[willbewill]

Bigbottle BB3 at £1300. Has seen off virtually all other phono stages at multi £K.

I have an Audio Detail NV-06, with mods and upgraded nuvistors, which is the best I've heard at the price. It costs around the same as the Big Bottle, which I haven't heard but I think you have heard both, the Audio Detail probably at Ian's. So wondering if you could comment on how they compare?

[CageyH]

Another BB3 owner here. Very happy with it.

[rmcin626]

There seems to be a strong case for BB3, so far

[struth]

i had a firebottle phono back in day. it was very good. the one you have robin, is very good too tho. i was very pleased for money with my project phono.. not at that pricepoint of course but it was very good at about 500, and allowed digital copying. think gary(gazjam) has a ps audio stage and they also are highly regarded.

[rmcin626]

i had a firebottle phono back in day. it was very good. the one you have robin, is very good too tho. i was very pleased for money with my project phono.. not at that pricepoint of course but it was very good at about 500, and allowed digital copying. think gary(gazjam) has a ps audio stage and they also are highly regarded.

Thanks Grant, Primare R32 is a fine Phono Stage and if it stays I wont be disappointed but now that my amp has sold I have the opportunity to try something new and different, the easy choice would be the Pathos In the Groove. Don’t want something I need to tweak all the time.

[Floyddroid]

Also consider the NJC. Tiz very good.

[rmcin626]

Also consider the NJC. Tiz very good.

Never heard of NJC to be honest

[Floyddroid]

Never heard of NJC to be honest

NJC make some jolly splendid stuff. I have their Reference phono stage, SUT and DAC. Beautifully put together. Have a shuffty here.... http://www.njc-audio.co.uk/products.html

[rmcin626]

NJC make some jolly splendid stuff. I have their Reference phono stage, SUT and DAC. Beautifully put together. Have a shuffty here.... http://www.njc-audio.co.uk/products.html

Thanks will do

[rmcin626]

The more I listen to my current vinyl setup, the more I think there’s not much wrong here.

[struth]

The more I listen to my current vinyl setup, the more I think there’s not much wrong here.

i would think it difficult to improve it much without spending a lot robin... maybe just get another flavour.

[rmcin626]

i would think it difficult to improve it much without spending a lot robin... maybe just get another flavour.

Its sounding pretty fine just now Grant, there may be better ways of spending my money.

[Ubi]

I joined the waiting list for a Big Bottle 3 at the start of December. I read a that a couple of guys meet up to do a comparison and put it in the same bracket as the Vida and Paradise. The Paradise is a project i think, but I loaned a Vida from a friend and it was beautiful, so if the Big Bottle can do that for £1300 i will be very happy. I know we shouldn't take too much from the opinions online, but i am interested enough to try it.

[CageyH]

Its sounding pretty fine just now Grant, there may be better ways of spending my money.

If you are happy, then don’t change.

[rmcin626]

If you are happy, then don’t change.

That’s my current thinking, plus I’ve not really had any time to arrange to listen to anything new.

[rmcin626]

I joined the waiting list for a Big Bottle 3 at the start of December. I read a that a couple of guys meet up to do a comparison and put it in the same bracket as the Vida and Paradise. The Paradise is a project i think, but I loaned a Vida from a friend and it was beautiful, so if the Big Bottle can do that for £1300 i will be very happy. I know we shouldn't take too much from the opinions online, but i am interested enough to try it.

There were several suggestions for Big Bottle 3 but not been able to hear one so far.

[337alant]

The Paradise Phono Stage is very nice if you can get one :eyebrows:
They do come up for sale occasionally and there are still boards out there ;)


Alan

[steveharman]

If there's a better stage out there than the Firebottle Vivant I have yet to hear it - and don't want to. So good, we bought two. ;-)

(also; hi Alan, Merry Christmas!)

Steve

[CageyH]

If there's a better stage out there than the Firebottle Vivant I have yet to hear it - and don't want to. So good, we bought two. ;-)

(also; hi Alan, Merry Christmas!)

Steve

You will be “pleased” to know that Alan designed the BB3, and “unfortunately” it sounds better than the Vivant (I think I have an early version of a Vivant in my Kin).

[rmcin626]

Both good suggestions although I’ve not heard either, too be honest unless I buy used from someone, I would prefer to hear something and if I like it buy not wait several weeks for someone to build it.

[337alant]

I joined the waiting list for a Big Bottle 3 at the start of December. I read a that a couple of guys meet up to do a comparison and put it in the same bracket as the Vida and Paradise. The Paradise is a project i think, but I loaned a Vida from a friend and it was beautiful, so if the Big Bottle can do that for £1300 i will be very happy. I know we shouldn't take too much from the opinions online, but i am interested enough to try it.

I would be interested in the reading the outcome of this comparison of Phono stages, was anyone present at this bake off ?
Alan

[Floyddroid]

Its sounding pretty fine just now Grant, there may be better ways of spending my money.

I thoroughly agree. If it ain't broke don't fix it. I farted around swapping turntables for years and bought one nearly seven years ago now that just does the job so i am sticking with it. The Primare is a great Phono stage and will take some beating.

[steveharman]

You will be “pleased” to know that Alan designed the BB3, and “unfortunately” it sounds better than the Vivant (I think I have an early version of a Vivant in my Kin).

:-). Which came first / what are the major differences between the two units?

The Vivant blows away every stage I've heard regardless of price (I've yet to experience the BB3) so it's a win-win afaic - two great pieces of kit from the same source!

[rmcin626]

I thoroughly agree. If it ain't broke don't fix it. I farted around swapping turntables for years and bought one nearly seven years ago now that just does the job so i am sticking with it. The Primare is a great Phono stage and will take some beating.

At the moment in no rush to change the Phono Stage, as I am quite happy with the sound being produced.

[Firebottle]

:-). Which came first / what are the major differences between the two units?

The Vivant blows away every stage I've heard regardless of price (I've yet to experience the BB3) so it's a win-win afaic - two great pieces of kit from the same source!

The Vivant came first then the BigBottle development was done to equal or exceed the Vivant performance. Once the BB3 was finished the performance gains were most welcome.
The BB3 has lower noise and greater clarity/transparency.

This year has also seen the development of the BigBottle Ultime (BBu), a no holds barred dual mono phono stage that uses no less than 8 valves.
This has exceeded all expectations but requires the best supporting equipment to show it's ultimate performance.

[Barry]

This year has also seen the development of the BigBottle Ultime (BBu), a no holds barred dual mono phono stage that uses no less than 8 valves.
This has exceeded all expectations but requires the best supporting equipment to show it's ultimate performance.

Alan, are you able to supply more information on the BBu development; specification, photos etc. please?

[CageyH]

The Vivant came first then the BigBottle development was done to equal or exceed the Vivant performance. Once the BB3 was finished the performance gains were most welcome.
The BB3 has lower noise and greater clarity/transparency.

This year has also seen the development of the BigBottle Ultime (BBu), a no holds barred dual mono phono stage that uses no less than 8 valves.
This has exceeded all expectations but requires the best supporting equipment to show it's ultimate performance.

The Kin phono stage came before the Vivant?
I am going to do my best to avoid hearing the BBu during 2022. :nono:

[Jac Hawk]

I'm currently using the EAT E-Glo Petite it's around the £1300 price mark and I love it. I had it at NEBO11 and it performed well, although against the 3 that Alan Kendal brought it seemed to have a congested soundstage which was a little odd and I only realised once i got it home that someone had fiddled with the loading and once it was set up right for the cartridge the congested feeling was gone and width and depth were restored, is it better than the firebottle or big bottle, i'd say it's as good when set up right, at this price point and upwards it's a bit more subjective and it's more about the attributes to the sound you like from one phono stage over another. What i would say is that in my system while using Alans phono stages i was getting considerable cone wobble in my 12" bass drivers which the subsonic filter on my EAT cured but Alans Firebottles and I suspect the Bigbottles don't have subsonic filters and if like my system you have a need for a filter then it might make you look elsewhere.

As i've said i'm very happy with my EAT, here's a little video


https://youtu.be/w306DhXxnuw

[Firebottle]

Barry, it started life early this year as a project to develop the best phono stage possible. No shortcuts, hang the expense, just the best.

I kept the best bits of the BB3 design, the innovative TripleStack MC/MM input stage, split RIAA equalisation and hybrid implementation to ensure the valves were operating in the best possible environment for maximum performance.

The TripleStack was improved to give lower noise and selectable MC gain, the second stage was reworked and the output stage improved with a new hybrid implementation. High quality psu film caps and valve bases were incorporated and psu regulation added.

I don't have a measured value for the noise but it is very low. The MM gain is around 42dB, the MC gain is selectable 60/66/71dB to suit any cartridge you care to use.

2999029991

[Firebottle]

What i would say is that in my system while using Alans phono stages i was getting considerable cone wobble in my 12" bass drivers which the subsonic filter on my EAT cured but Alans Firebottles and I suspect the Bigbottles don't have subsonic filters and if like my system you have a need for a filter then it might make you look elsewhere.

The cone wobble was due to a faulty jfet, so no ongoing worries there.

[rmcin626]

I'm currently using the EAT E-Glo Petite it's around the £1300 price mark and I love it. I had it at NEBO11 and it performed well, although against the 3 that Alan Kendal brought it seemed to have a congested soundstage which was a little odd and I only realised once i got it home that someone had fiddled with the loading and once it was set up right for the cartridge the congested feeling was gone and width and depth were restored, is it better than the firebottle or big bottle, i'd say it's as good when set up right, at this price point and upwards it's a bit more subjective and it's more about the attributes to the sound you like from one phono stage over another. What i would say is that in my system while using Alans phono stages i was getting considerable cone wobble in my 12" bass drivers which the subsonic filter on my EAT cured but Alans Firebottles and I suspect the Bigbottles don't have subsonic filters and if like my system you have a need for a filter then it might make you look elsewhere.

As i've said i'm very happy with my EAT, here's a little video


https://youtu.be/w306DhXxnuw

That looks interesting and is in my price point unlike a couple of others mentioned recently, the new one from Big Bottle is over £2k I believe.

[Ubi]

That looks interesting and is in my price point unlike a couple of others mentioned recently, the new one from Big Bottle is over £2k I believe.

Make an offer: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Whest-PS30-RDT-Phonostage-Audiophile-Hi-End/144174308196?hash=item2191755b64:g:oCQAAOSwBUthKR3 Q&pageci=b0227495-cd3a-419f-8a78-12576ae5066e&redirect=mobile

Nothing to do with me but i'd take that over the EAT

[Barry]

Thought your pictures deserved enlarging Alan.

https://theartofsound.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=29990

https://theartofsound.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=29991

What is the projected cost likely to be?

[Firebottle]

Thanks Barry.

It's a very expensive build but the performance is commensurate, it is without doubt the best phono stage I have heard.
The detail/layering/separation of what is in the groove is outstanding.

Price is £3500

[Ubi]

Thanks Barry.

It's a very expensive build but the performance is commensurate, it is without doubt the best phono stage I have heard.
The detail/layering/separation of what is in the groove is outstanding.

Price is £3500

Pictures = :eek:

Price = :steam:

Joke aside, your craftmanship is excellent Alann. It looks beautiful.

[mayebaza]

And IMHO sounds equally just as good

[Ubi]

And IMHO sounds equally just as good

How have you heard one? In your system or in Alan's?

[rmcin626]

As it £2k over my budget , will not be considered no matter how much I would like one, I will be sticking to my budget

[Firebottle]

How have you heard one? In your system or in Alan's?

Barrington heard it in my system and bought it.

[Ubi]

As it £2k over my budget , will not be considered no matter how much I would like one, I will be sticking to my budget

Sorry, you are correct.

I am sidetracking the thread.

[mac72]

I would be interested in the reading the outcome of this comparison of Phono stages, was anyone present at this bake off ?
Alan
Someone pointed me out to this thread and I believe it refers to Jamie-Karma67 and myself , not exactly bake off but we have listened to several tracks through mentioned stages .
When directly comparing BB3 with Paradise and Vida first thing to remember is to level match them as former has fairly high gain compared the latter ( something like 70dB vs 62dB but I might be couple dB out in either case) , 1kHz track and VU meters were of much help in this case .
Few notes before making conclusion , my system was quickly put together just before "bake off" as our flat was supposed to be re-decorated which hasn't happened as the guy got Covid , afterwards I realised VTA was fairly bit off - tail up , BB3 didn't have many hours under the belt, Jamie recently mentioned that new valves made quite positive difference. Paradise also was barely "finished" with no inductors in Calvins as the ones I've had were of too low inductance , RIAA section resistors plugged in not soldered , RIAA caps of low quality.
As far as I remember we listened to following records:
https://www.discogs.com/release/2123644-Norman-Blake-2-Tut-Taylor-Sam-Bush-Butch-Robins-Vassar-Clements-David-Holland-Jethro-Burns-Norman-Bl
https://www.discogs.com/release/4870409-Eric-Clapton-Unplugged
https://www.discogs.com/release/10464493-Yello-Flag
and possibly couple others I do not remember right now
The final conclusion was Vida was most universal on all the tracks we listened with Paradise second and BB3 last , we both agreed that BB3 definitely didn't disappoint with quite impressive bass notes but on some tracks we spotted a bit of "glare" in the highs .
Now I have to put a spanner in the works , after some more listening to completely finished and dialled in Paradise with a few tweaks to my TT setup I decided to sell Vida as Paradise was in overall better also mentioned by Jamie valve upgrade made a substantial change to the sound so final conclusion is who knows - another bake off needed .
Almost forgot accompanying equipment :
Kef ref 201/2
McIntosh MA2275
SME10-SMEV-Ortofon Cadenza Bronze
but I'm using Koetsu BGL atm also I'm experimenting with SVS sub filling some gaps in the lowest range <60Hz using bit of DSP on the sub

[rmcin626]

Sorry, you are correct.

I am sidetracking the thread.

Thanks

[rmcin626]

Original post

As some you may know I bought a Pathos Classic Remix Amp from Grant a few weeks ago, I am now thinking of a change to my Phono stage currently a Primare R32 , there is of course an obvious choice the Pathos in the Groove, which is around the £1500 mark.

Does anyone have any other suggestions or recommendations around that price mark or ideally cheaper. The Primare R32 is doing a fine job by the way and will be an excellent purchase for someone very soon.

Please note the budget.

[mac72]

Original post

As some you may know I bought a Pathos Classic Remix Amp from Grant a few weeks ago, I am now thinking of a change to my Phono stage currently a Primare R32 , there is of course an obvious choice the Pathos in the Groove, which is around the £1500 mark.

Does anyone have any other suggestions or recommendations around that price mark or ideally cheaper. The Primare R32 is doing a fine job by the way and will be an excellent purchase for someone very soon.

Please note the budget.
apologies Robin
I see others suggested earlier different cartridge , IMO it would be your best option , I heard good things about R32 and I doubt any other £1500 stage would make much of a difference

[rmcin626]

apologies Robin
I see others suggested earlier different cartridge , IMO it would be your best option , I heard good things about R32 and I doubt any other £1500 stage would make much of a difference

No Problem Slav, just trying to get the post back on track.

[mac72]

No Problem Slav, just trying to get the post back on track.
All 3 stages I mentioned are sort of within your budget , BB3 is around £1300 , I've sold my first Paradise for £1400 , Vida slightly more expensive - I've sold one for around £1800 and IMO is definitely worth saving/waiting a bit longer as re-sale value seems to stay on the same level in case you didn't like it .
If you're somewhere down south you're welcome to listen to my Paradise with Koetsu or Cadenza Bronze , we could also ask Jamie to bring BB3 .
Not sure if anyone mentioned earlier Whest PS30RDT , I have soft spot for this one and there is one for sale on Ebay for £1200 with make an offer option: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/144174308196?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&campid=5338468473&toolid=10001&customid=a3a6967c-6d9c-11ec-86f2-646333663332
if you decide to go for a different cartridge try Audio Emotion , they carry Ortofon and sometimes you can even borrow one for a home demo
good luck with the search

[rmcin626]

All 3 stages I mentioned are sort of within your budget , BB3 is around £1300 , I've sold my first Paradise for £1400 , Vida slightly more expensive - I've sold one for around £1800 and IMO is definitely worth saving/waiting a bit longer as re-sale value seems to stay on the same level in case you didn't like it .
If you're somewhere down south you're welcome to listen to my Paradise with Koetsu or Cadenza Bronze , we could also ask Jamie to bring BB3 .
Not sure if anyone mentioned earlier Whest PS30RDT , I have soft spot for this one and there is one for sale on Ebay for £1200 with make an offer option: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/144174308196?mkevt=1&mkcid=1&mkrid=710-53481-19255-0&campid=5338468473&toolid=10001&customid=a3a6967c-6d9c-11ec-86f2-646333663332
if you decide to go for a different cartridge try Audio Emotion , they carry Ortofon and sometimes you can even borrow one for a home demo
good luck with the search

Ive not heard the BB3 or the Paradise, I knew they are within budget, but if I hear something I like I would what to purchase it, I’ve not inquirer but I expect I would have to wait several weeks if not months for one.
Much appreciate the offer of listen but I’m on the west coast of Scotland.

At the moment pretty happy with the sound I have but I have some spare funds, just deciding the best purchase is the hard bit.

[Lawrence001]

i would think it difficult to improve it much without spending a lot robin... maybe just get another flavour.Or actually just stick with what he's got!

[struth]

Or actually just stick with what he's got!

yup, thats what i was saying.

[rmcin626]

yup, thats what i was saying.

The more I listen to what I have the less likely I am to change, might just buy more vinyl, treat myself to some of that very expensive One-step releases.

[CageyH]

More vinyl :thumbsup:

Can’t go wrong with that….

[Bigbird]

I could potentially have a BB3 for sale if you’re interested?

I bought it around a year ago . It’s a two box jobby with separate power supply and Trio of telefunken valves in it . It hasn’t been used for about 5 months of that as my cartridge shit itself and because I bought a denafrips terminator 2 dac I’ve only just got around to sending it off for a retip.

I was just about to send it back to Oliver at Bigbottle to part ex it against the new beast but if you’re interested then PM me and we can sort the details .

There has been a slight improvement to the multi fet boards since mine was built, which has improved it a little further but Oliver has said he will do this update for me before I sell it to any new owner .

Even with the first set of fets in , it absolutely destroyed my Whest 2.2 phono which cost £1500 new , so it gives you an idea of the level this thing is on. I reckon 3-4K in a retail environment easy. It’s brilliant

Let me know if you’re interested

Cheers

Karl


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bigbird]

I could potentially have a BB3 for sale if you’re interested?

I bought it around a year ago . It’s a two box jobby with separate power supply and Trio of telefunken valves in it . It hasn’t been used for about 5 months of that as my cartridge shit itself and because I bought a denafrips terminator 2 dac I’ve only just got around to sending it off for a retip.

I was just about to send it back to Oliver at Bigbottle to part ex it against the new beast but if you’re interested then PM me and we can sort the details .

There has been a slight improvement to the multi fet boards since mine was built, which has improved it a little further but Oliver has said he will do this update for me before I sell it to any new owner .

Even with the first set of fets in , it absolutely destroyed my Whest 2.2 phono which cost £1500 new , so it gives you an idea of the level this thing is on. I reckon 3-4K in a retail environment easy. It’s brilliant

Let me know if you’re interested

Cheers

Karl


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Now sold . Knew it wouldn’t hang around .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rmcin626]

Luckily still quite happy with my current Primare phono stage, while the search continues.

[sparcki]

Hi I am thinking of selling my Paradise. Phono stage.
I bought it off this forum and I currently have 3 systems. Time for a bit of a downsize. It’s in excellent condition.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[rmcin626]

Hi I am thinking of selling my Paradise. Phono stage.
I bought it off this forum and I currently have 3 systems. Time for a bit of a downsize. It’s in excellent condition.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Let me know when you make up your mind Gary, I could be interested.

[Qwin]

It's pushing your budget, but the Aqvox 2Ci is around 1900 euro. (what I use).
I picked up a used item for half that price.

Its fully balanced, but I see your amp has a pair of balanced inputs.

Also its a current amplifier, not a voltage amplifier.

MC cartridges put out very small voltages, but relatively healthy current and are basically balanced devices.

Here is a link to a review of a current amplifier that explains the principle: https://www.analogplanet.com/content/current-affair-intriguing-mr-labs-vera-20-mc-phono-preamplifier#:~:text=The%20cartridge's%20voltage%2 0output%20is,the%20greater%20its%20current%20produ ction

Most Aqvox gear is designed for studio work, the 2Ci was developed for checking vinyl masters.
If you Google it, there are various reviews, from TNT, Stereophile etc.

Its a slightly different path to the other suggestions offered, but worth checking out.

[rmcin626]

It's pushing your budget, but the Aqvox 2Ci is around 1900 euro. (what I use).
I picked up a used item for half that price.

Its fully balanced, but I see your amp has a pair of balanced inputs.

Also its a current amplifier, not a voltage amplifier.

MC cartridges put out very small voltages, but relatively healthy current and are basically balanced devices.

Here is a link to a review of a current amplifier that explains the principle: https://www.analogplanet.com/content/current-affair-intriguing-mr-labs-vera-20-mc-phono-preamplifier#:~:text=The%20cartridge's%20voltage%2 0output%20is,the%20greater%20its%20current%20produ ction

Most Aqvox gear is designed for studio work, the 2Ci was developed for checking vinyl masters.
If you Google it, there are various reviews, from TNT, Stereophile etc.

Its a slightly different path to the other suggestions offered, but worth checking out.

Thanks ken, not one was aware of but will have a look.

[loheswaran]

Go Whest!
Phono stages have such a variation - u really need to see if shops will lend you one. I tried a Groove and I couldn’t get on with it in my system.
See if Bigbottle can loan u a unit

[rmcin626]

Go Whest!
Phono stages have such a variation - u really need to see if shops will lend you one. I tried a Groove and I couldn’t get on with it in my system.
See if Bigbottle can loan u a unit

Thanks I will be trying the following to see how it sits in my system.

Electrocompaniet ECP 2 MKII Phono Stage

[Firebottle]

The ECP 2 certainly looks good on paper.
Let us know how you get on.

[rmcin626]

The ECP 2 certainly looks good on paper.
Let us know how you get on.

Will do

[rusty bearing]

I've had an ECP-1 in the main system for a good few years, it's now giving stirling service in my office system. It was only the fact that the fixed loading didn't suit my new MC cart that meant a change. It certainly still sounds good to my ears and Electrocompaniet has a rather stylish look to their offerings I think.

[Clive197]

Did I say I hate with a vengeance Dip Switches, especially if there on the back panel.

I’ve just taken delivery of a PS Audio Stella Phonostage. No dip switches, all changes via a remote control and infinitely variable MC loading if the cartridge is not the standard 100k. Spectacular sound, a truly excellent Phonostage.

[Firebottle]

I’ve just taken delivery of a PS Audio Stella Phonostage. No dip switches, all changes via a remote control and infinitely variable MC loading if the cartridge is not the standard 100k. Spectacular sound, a truly excellent Phonostage.

Interesting choice Clive.
I've just read up about it, I imagine it does sound rather good.