View Full Version : CDs with Pre-Emphasis
hifinutt
13-11-2021, 19:07
read this recently with regard to cd `s
What is pre-emphasis? It was a method of equalizing that was used on some CDs originally manufactured during the 80s. If you play these back on a CD player or computer that does not automatically de-emphasize, they will not sound right. They will be oddly tinny and thin sounding.
seems interesting. any thoughts ?
http://cratedigging.co/13/11210/cds_with_pre-emphasis
Theadmans
13-11-2021, 19:57
There's loads of them...
As a Factory Records fan I bought the first UK (made in Japan) Factory copy of New Order "Low-Life" on CD.
When years later I ripped it to Flac...
...it didn't sound right until I wrote a DOS batch file to process it with SOX to de-emphasize the Flacs.
71 pages of CDs with pre-emphasis here:-
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/pre-emphasis-list.121188/
I think it was part of the Redbook do any machine following it should decide it automatically
Theadmans
13-11-2021, 20:07
Yes but a load of modern CD players don't do this...
...and anyone who has ripped early CDs to flac on a computer - needs to be worried.
Theadmans
13-11-2021, 20:17
Just a few more names for you to toy with:-
Human League, Heaven 17, OMD, China Crisis, The Blue Nile...
...and that's just the tip of the iceberg.
I think it was part of the Redbook do any machine following it should decide it automatically
True but a lot don't these days, and probably some 'boutique' efforts from the past might not either.
Worst case played back without de-emphasis it will sound a little bit brighter/toppier than it should do. Like a tape with dolby switched off. It won't ruin the sound.
Mostly it's early 1980s Japanese CDs
Theadmans
13-11-2021, 23:20
True but a lot don't these days, and probably some 'boutique' efforts from the past might not either.
Worst case played back without de-emphasis it will sound a little bit brighter/toppier than it should do. Like a tape with dolby switched off. It won't ruin the sound.
Mostly it's early 1980s Japanese CDs
Actually we are not exclusively talking about expensive Japanese imports here...
...thousands of early UK CD albums are affected.
As this is a Hi-Fi forum I would suggest that it is a mute point as to whether the sound is ruined.
If you were the kind of person that only started buying CDs with "improved" remastered sound in the 90s - you are probably not going to have many discs with PE.
But I started buying discs around 1984 - and have quite a few PE discs (all of which I have re-ripped with SOX processing).
If you buy old discs from Charity Shops - you might want to check Discogs (which will often tell you about the presence of PE).
There is a flag for PE which is displayed in EAC - but not all discs with PE have the flag set. BTW even though EAC can display the flag - it doesn't compensate for it when creating flacs. For that you need SOX etc.
My £950 Creek CD50 CD player bought in 2016 does not handle PE (I asked Mike Creek).
Actually we are not exclusively talking about expensive Japanese imports here...
...thousands of early UK CD albums are affected.
As this is a Hi-Fi forum I would suggest that it is a mute point as to whether the sound is ruined.
).
I don't see anyway it can sound 'ruined' but it won't be the correct balance I agree.
I think I read somewhere that not compensating would give a 2dB lift to the HF but I can't find that now.
Have you compared a CD with pre-emphasis on a player that compensates and one that doesn't?
I have some early CDs so I will have to check to see if they qualify. None of them sound poor though and I doubt either of my DACs has compensation.
HDCD is another one where people say they sound bad' if not decoded, but they don't. I have one of those I had for years before I noticed the logo on the case. Never noticed anything wrong with the sound.
Think it was 10db at the 10khz point added in the analogue domain. It was used to reduce noise, but a to d convertors by late 80's got so good it wasn't needed.
Haselsh1
14-11-2021, 08:36
I remember owning a Cambridge Audio CD2 back in the late eighties that had an LED to show de-emphasis was on or off. I also remember that Howard Jones' album was recorded that way.
walpurgis
14-11-2021, 08:52
Can't say I've noticed any CD's not sounding right, whether recent or going back to the eighties. Mind you, my newest player is getting on for twenty years old.
denon were biggest users of pre emphisis, and kept using it into 90's i believe. think as macca says, it was oft a japanese thing. and yes some early machines had a light on them
Think it was 10db at the 10khz point added in the analogue domain. It was used to reduce noise, but a to d convertors by late 80's got so good it wasn't needed.
Here's the EQ curve - it is 10dB but only at 20Khz:
https://i.ibb.co/yFpn094/PRE-EM.jpg (https://ibb.co/YBX72C0)
I'd expect this to sound like you'd turned up the treble control on the amp. Not 'correct' but not a disaster either, might sound 'too bright' to some people on some systems.
fair enough; the 10db stuck in my mind.. yup its a little bright, but orchestrations sound worst.
It will change the sound from what was intended, no doubt about that. Trying to think if I do have any CDs from the 1980s that sound a bit thin and toppy, I might have a couple.
https://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?34336-CD-red-book-de-emphasis
some info here including a ripper that compensates for it..
CD2WAV32 developed by M. Yanagisawa from Japan.
walpurgis
14-11-2021, 09:58
Unless they are marked, how would you know which CD's need correction applied?
Unless they are marked, how would you know which CD's need correction applied?
most were not, so you would really need a machine with an indicator. there wont be many discs or machines that have the lamp around now anyway.
its still part of the redbook tho.
it wouldnt surprise me if someone has made a list of them lol
walpurgis
14-11-2021, 10:12
I can always use the tone controls :).
it wouldnt surprise me if someone has made a list of them lol
You may have missed OP's post above... :)
There's loads of them...
As a Factory Records fan I bought the first UK (made in Japan) Factory copy of New Order "Low-Life" on CD.
When years later I ripped it to Flac...
...it didn't sound right until I wrote a DOS batch file to process it with SOX to de-emphasize the Flacs.
71 pages of CDs with pre-emphasis here:-
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/pre-emphasis-list.121188/
And from his original link, if you follow that there's also this:
Here is an incomplete list of pre-emphasis CDs. (http://www.studio-nibble.com/cd/index.php?title=Pre-emphasis_(release_list))
Theadmans
14-11-2021, 10:34
Given the amount of time people discuss things like cables, fuses etc on Hi-Fi forums - it amazes me that so few people seem to know or care about pre-emphasis.
I wonder how people on here have "Dare" by The Human League or the first two Heaven 17 albums, or China Crisis "Working With Fire and Steel", OMD "Architecture & Morality", The Blue Nile "Hats" etc etc...
...like I say we are not talking obscure albums here.
Given the amount of time people discuss things like cables, fuses etc on Hi-Fi forums - it amazes me that so few people seem to know or care about pre-emphasis.
I wonder how people on here have "Dare" by The Human League or the first two Heaven 17 albums, or China Crisis "Working With Fire and Steel", OMD "Architecture & Morality", The Blue Nile "Hats" etc etc...
...like I say we are not talking obscure albums here.
Not all releases of those albums will have pre-emphasis though.
Theadmans
14-11-2021, 12:15
Not all releases of those albums will have pre-emphasis though.
True - but if you are like me and detest modern brickwalled remasters...
...you will want the first UK CD (which is usually the one with Pre-Emphasis).
Having gone to the trouble of finding a decent mastering - it seems foolish to not then deal with the pre-emphasis.
True - but if you are like me and detest modern brickwalled remasters...
...you will want the first UK CD (which is usually the one with Pre-Emphasis).
Having gone to the trouble of finding a decent mastering - it seems foolish to not then deal with the pre-emphasis.
Agreed on all counts. Multi band EQ will compensate, just gradually reduce all frequencies after 1Khz.
How does the owner of early CDs know they have PE, or are we blaming it for any CD that sounds 'bad'. In which case its very many.
Theadmans
14-11-2021, 13:01
How does the owner of early CDs know they have PE, or are we blaming it for any CD that sounds 'bad'. In which case its very many.
Read the full thread - there is nothing to tell you whether the disc has PE on the CD or booklet.
You need to consult one of the lists in this thread or Discogs (for the precise issue of a certain album).
My old 1990s Cambridge Dacmagic 2 MkII had a handy light showing the presence of PE (but new kit won't).
The disturbing thing is CD Player manufacturers have dropped the PE decoding from their machines over the last 20 years.
The only way round this is to create flacs and manually de-emphasize them using SOX (or similar).
How does the owner of early CDs know they have PE, or are we blaming it for any CD that sounds 'bad'. In which case its very many.
You will have to search the internet for every catalogue number.
I have hundreds of CDs and none of them sound 'bad'. No classical music though if that's what you mean. I know some Classical enthusiast who are fussy about the recording and production qualities. But that would be the same on any medium.
Lawrence001
14-11-2021, 16:32
My first ever CD (Clannad - Legend) had it but I didn't know until much later.
It does make Maire Brennan's voice more ethereal sounding I've got to say!
I had no inkling of this, and assumed just mixdown variation and compression were the only variables.
Does this pre-emphasis parallel that in FM?
Haselsh1
15-11-2021, 14:09
Mmm... interesting. Could this be why Heaven 17's Penthouse and Pavement sounds so shite...? Mine is so toppy and shrill. Maybe, maybe not.
i would think most if not all older denon players will play them; toshiba and jvc too. in fact ive an old denon somewhere. maybe why i always thought it good
Mmm... interesting. Could this be why Heaven 17's Penthouse and Pavement sounds so shite...? Mine is so toppy and shrill. Maybe, maybe not.
It could well be. Without de-emphasis they would certainly sound toppy unless you had speakers with a lot of HF roll-off.
If they always sounded like that even back in the 1980s or 1990s when you were almost certainly using players with compensation, then that's probably what they were meant to sound like.
walpurgis
15-11-2021, 16:46
It could well be. Without de-emphasis they would certainly sound toppy unless you had speakers with a lot of HF roll-off.
Or you're like me and too old to hear higher frequencies properly and hence won't care. :)
Hi
Not sure if this is of any use but just in case
https://www.tnt-audio.com/vintage/procrustes2_pt2_e.html
Have a good day
Regards
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.