View Full Version : Linkwitz has ruined conventional speakers for me
Pigmy Pony
08-11-2021, 19:25
I had plans to change my speakers next year, some floorstanders from KEF or Q Acoustics maybe. Or scratch a longtime TL itch with something big from PMC. But hearing some speakers from Linkwitz at the weekend may have changed all that with their total lack of 'boxiness'. The sound for me was totally addictive, and I don't know if I'll ever hear my own speakers the same way again.
I know there are other alternatives to loudspeaker cabinets, but these really bowled me over. The owner Gordon spoke to me briefly about his set up, but it all went over my head. What to, what to do... I might just throw in the towel and get a nice Alba mini system :)
they do look interesting i have to say. not heard any of course but i like what i see. it has possibilities that boxes dont have. ive ended up with wierd headphones lol
Steve, you know that there is a kit available? https://www.linkwitzlab.com/Store/LXmini.htm
Very clever chap was Mr. Linkwitz. I have heard his Orions driven by 8 channels and enjoyed them a lot. Which model are you talking about?
Thanks Kevin. Our posts were just 3 minutes apart so I missed your link. Lots of love for these on some of the other forums. The guy who designed the Neurochrome amps uses them I think.
How big is your room Steve?
Pigmy Pony
09-11-2021, 19:55
:( Probably not big enough. About 5M x 4M, which on the face of it seems large-ish, but for practical reasons (domestic harmony) my speakers do need to be fairly close to the back wall (about 6-700mm).
Another problem is the size of my wallet - new prices are a bit too much for me (I know savings can be made by making from a kit, but my attempt would result in a speaker looking like an old bedside cabinet that's been rescued from a skip, and likely to sound like one).
And no used ones that I can see, but I will be keeping my eyes peeled. I fancy their Sirius Studio, which looks more likely to work in smaller rooms. I may even get over it and forget how they sounded... until I hear one again ;)
Was thinking you could build the Linkwitz 521 :D
You fix stuff for a living sure you could knock something up man.
Pigmy Pony
10-11-2021, 07:00
Was thinking you could build the Linkwitz 521 :D
You fix stuff for a living sure you could knock something up man.
:eek: Yeah it would look knocked up too. I know a mechanic who's good with engines but i wouldn't get in a plane he'd worked on. I don't have the skills nor the courage to take on something like that :doh: Tempting though it is, I'd rather pay someone who's not gonna balls it up...
My saving up starts this week, and I'll see where we are next year :)
Firebottle
10-11-2021, 10:03
I've been looking into the possibility as well.
The complete kit looks like the safest way to go, something like £650 so not too much for the performance on offer.
The kit includes the DSP (frequency correction) unit but there is an analogue filter unit that can be used instead, designed by Nelson Pass. This would be my choice and reportedly gives identical performance.
You do need two quality stereo power amps as well, recommended minimum power of 80W for the bass and 25W for the treble.
I'm tempted..
Ali Tait
10-11-2021, 14:13
Have you a link to the analogue crossover Alan?
Firebottle
10-11-2021, 14:44
https://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_lxmini%20crossover.pdf
AJSki2fly
10-11-2021, 15:24
I had plans to change my speakers next year, some floorstanders from KEF or Q Acoustics maybe. Or scratch a longtime TL itch with something big from PMC. But hearing some speakers from Linkwitz at the weekend may have changed all that with their total lack of 'boxiness'. The sound for me was totally addictive, and I don't know if I'll ever hear my own speakers the same way again.
I know there are other alternatives to loudspeaker cabinets, but these really bowled me over. The owner Gordon spoke to me briefly about his set up, but it all went over my head. What to, what to do... I might just throw in the towel and get a nice Alba mini system :)
They look very interesting Steve.
If I had the money I cold be very tempted to have a go at building the LX521's I think with drivers this is about €4400.00 in a nice finish, and then you need the power amp which adds on €2690.00. All in about £6100 at todays X-rates, yes quite a bit, but if they sound as good as others say then they could be absolute giant killers in terms of end game SQ, as long as the front end into it was of good quality.:scratch:
They look very interesting Steve.
If I had the money I cold be very tempted to have a go at building the LX521's I think with drivers this is about €4400.00 in a nice finish, and then you need the power amp which adds on €2690.00. All in about £6100 at todays X-rates, yes quite a bit, but if they sound as good as others say then they could be absolute giant killers in terms of end game SQ, as long as the front end into it was of good quality.:scratch:
The 521 are one of the best loudspeakers I have ever heard. Possibly the best as they certainly have the best imaging I've heard, and by a country mile. Assuming you've got the space to exploit it fully as they need to be a fair distance from side walls, so no use in my room.
Compared to what six grand buys you retail there is absolutely no competition to them whatsoever.
AJSki2fly
10-11-2021, 16:19
The 521 are one of the best loudspeakers I have ever heard. Possibly the best as they certainly have the best imaging I've heard, and by a country mile. Assuming you've got the space to exploit it fully as they need to be a fair distance from side walls, so no use in my room.
Compared to what six grand buys you retail there is absolutely no competition to them whatsoever.
Thanks Martin, they do sound very interesting, I will have to do some more investigating I think.:)
Pigmy Pony
10-11-2021, 20:02
They look very interesting Steve.
If I had the money I cold be very tempted to have a go at building the LX521's I think with drivers this is about €4400.00 in a nice finish, and then you need the power amp which adds on €2690.00. All in about £6100 at todays X-rates, yes quite a bit, but if they sound as good as others say then they could be absolute giant killers in terms of end game SQ, as long as the front end into it was of good quality.:scratch:
But if all you have to add to that is a top notch front end (which you already have), it starts to look like a bit of a bargain (sort of) for what you then have. Shame that the LX521 needs so much space. Maybe the LX Mini's or Studios are the way to go, the Linkwitz blurb says they will work in even the tiniest of spaces. Quite a bit cheaper too.
If the owner of the set up I heard last weekend were to post on here about it (I only know his name was Gordon) I'm sure it would be of great interest to us. Where are you Gordon? :)
Already started saving up - got a £10 tip off a customer today, so nearly there ;)
If the owner of the set up I heard last weekend were to post on here about it (I only know his name was Gordon) I'm sure it would be of great interest to us. Where are you Gordon? :)
I think he goes by the user name Halfway Tree
Floyddroid
10-11-2021, 21:24
Contact Gordon Halftree. He will give you all the help and advice you need. Heez a diamond geezer.
Over the last few years I have received reports form many that the SQ is way ahead of many conventional designs.
Linkwitz certainly was a pioneering and innovative developer.
Ali Tait
10-11-2021, 22:46
https://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_lxmini%20crossover.pdf
Ta muchly.
Pigmy Pony
11-11-2021, 07:18
Thanks Kevin and Steve, Halfway Tree it is. Found this:
https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?66621-Linkwitz-LXmini&highlight=halfway+tree
Nor sure I can tell which Linkwitz model you were listening to. They are not all created equal.
Pigmy Pony
11-11-2021, 08:02
It was the ones shown in the link I posted, the Minis. Not the 521s.
OK
Was that the minis with additional subs?
This is the reason I don't listen to other systems or go to shows, just makes you doubt your own system AND costs you more money [emoji23]
This is the reason I don't listen to other systems or go to shows, just makes you doubt your own system AND costs you more money [emoji23]
Reading forums can do that as well.
Sometimes, ignorance is bliss.
I often wonder what would happen if I tried my first system against what I have now. I still have my first system, so it could be done.
Would the extra expenditure justify the perceived increase in sound quality, or would it sound nearly as good?
This is the reason I don't listen to other systems or go to shows, just makes you doubt your own system AND costs you more money [emoji23]
Almost always found the opposite to be true with shows, almost always come away thinking my system is a lot better than I previously thought it was. And wondering how it's possible to spend so much money and still have a crap sound.
Some of the NEBO meets with people's own systems, that's a different matter. They did open my eyes and cost me some money. But I did get better sound as a result.
Halfway Tree
11-11-2021, 13:43
Thanks Kevin and Steve, Halfway Tree it is. Found this:
https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?66621-Linkwitz-LXmini&highlight=halfway+tree
Not a lot to add to what is in that thread, Steve, other than if you go down the kit route Dr. Frank Brenner who runs the Linkwitz.com site is a great guy to work with. The LXMini kit is really well thought out, everything fits well and is easy to put together. Frank is an old friend of Siegfried Linkwitz and also maintains the Linkwitzlab website and OPLUG forum since Siegfried's passing.
I originally just bought the licence and plans with the intention of building the speakers from scratch (which is what I did with the LX521s). However, I found that it was just as expensive to buy the platic pipe etc (minimum orders etc) so went with the kit. I am glad I did. Saved a lot of hassle.
At home mine are in the living room and for music I'm using a Squeezebox Touch>>Benchmark DAC 1 HDR>>MiniDSP2x4HD>>Audiolab 8000x7 multi-channel amp (4 channels of the 7). A single switch turns everything on and off which makes it easy for everyone. I don't find the need to have an additional bass unit, but I don't play that loud in the house. That was a big room at NEBO and I knew they would need some help at the bottom end (they roll off after about 45Hz) so that's why I brought the bass units from the LX521s.
If you are thinking of using or adding a bass unit later (I like the look of the LXMini+2) then I would look at either the Pass ASP, MiniDSP4x10HD or using software EQ/x-overs if you use a PC. The advantage to using a MiniDSP or software is that you can tweak to your room and personal taste. You can also try the simplified x-over/EQ mods developed by Dave Reite and Tom Christiansen. This configuration enables the LXMinis to play a bit louder with a slight loss of soundstage. But the difference is subtle. I imagine the Pass ASP has a similar configuration. With the Pass ASP you have a fixed setup which you can't change, but might be better if you listen to a lot of vinyl. As always, compromises.
Happy to answer questions.
cheers
Gordon
Almost always found the opposite to be true with shows, almost always come away thinking my system is a lot better than I previously thought it was. And wondering how it's possible to spend so much money and still have a crap sound.
That mirrors my own experience. But then the venues for audio shows are the least best places to demonstrate systems. Large speakers fare particularly badly, but small ("bookshelf") speakers can sound remarkably good.
Pigmy Pony
11-11-2021, 20:47
This is the reason I don't listen to other systems or go to shows, just makes you doubt your own system AND costs you more money [emoji23]
I know what you mean, if I'd minded my own business I could still be happily living with my Fidelity HF45 mono record player :)
Pigmy Pony
11-11-2021, 21:16
Not a lot to add to what is in that thread, Steve, other than if you go down the kit route Dr. Frank Brenner who runs the Linkwitz.com site is a great guy to work with. The LXMini kit is really well thought out, everything fits well and is easy to put together. Frank is an old friend of Siegfried Linkwitz and also maintains the Linkwitzlab website and OPLUG forum since Siegfried's passing.
I originally just bought the licence and plans with the intention of building the speakers from scratch (which is what I did with the LX521s). However, I found that it was just as expensive to buy the platic pipe etc (minimum orders etc) so went with the kit. I am glad I did. Saved a lot of hassle.
At home mine are in the living room and for music I'm using a Squeezebox Touch>>Benchmark DAC 1 HDR>>MiniDSP2x4HD>>Audiolab 8000x7 multi-channel amp (4 channels of the 7). A single switch turns everything on and off which makes it easy for everyone. I don't find the need to have an additional bass unit, but I don't play that loud in the house. That was a big room at NEBO and I knew they would need some help at the bottom end (they roll off after about 45Hz) so that's why I brought the bass units from the LX521s.
If you are thinking of using or adding a bass unit later (I like the look of the LXMini+2) then I would look at either the Pass ASP, MiniDSP4x10HD or using software EQ/x-overs if you use a PC. The advantage to using a MiniDSP or software is that you can tweak to your room and personal taste. You can also try the simplified x-over/EQ mods developed by Dave Reite and Tom Christiansen. This configuration enables the LXMinis to play a bit louder with a slight loss of soundstage. But the difference is subtle. I imagine the Pass ASP has a similar configuration. With the Pass ASP you have a fixed setup which you can't change, but might be better if you listen to a lot of vinyl. As always, compromises.
Happy to answer questions.
cheers
Gordon
Hi Gordon,
I started out thinking that buying something in kit form would be a tall order for a numpty like me, but the more I read about this (LX Minis) the more I think "Hmm, maybe I could" :)
But I would like a decent bass, so I would almost certainly add a sub - the LX Studio looks like a good fit. I thought the bass performance of the subs you brought to NEBO to be all I'd ever need, and then some. Would that be down to the way the units are positioned in their cabinets, or have you ever tried other subs with satisfactory results?
One more question, which may be of particular interest to some folk on here, does the LX521 need as much space around them as (strongly) advised on the Linkwitz website?
Apologies if my questions seem a bit daft, but when it comes to learning about DIY audio projects, this is day one for me!
Halfway Tree
12-11-2021, 15:37
Unfortunately, like many dipoles the LX521s do need space - at least the 65 cubic metres as suggested on the Linkwitz site. Ideally they need at least 1m to the nearest reflecting surface. My music room which is separate from the house (I can play as loud as I want without upsetting anyone - well, except my slowly developing tinnitus! :)) is about 79 cu. m, but is long and narrow (9mx3.5m), so I can't quite meet the 1m sidewall distance, but I can get 2m from the frontwall which helps compensate. The upper baffle can also be toed in a bit which increases the distance to the sidewall. Essentially what I'm trying to do is ensure the direct sound reaches me well before the reflected sound.
The LXMinis on the other hand were designed to work well much closer to any reflecting surface and in a much smaller room. If you can manage a half metre from the front wall (perhaps even less) and the same from a side wall you should be OK. The rear wave is attenuated to a large extent in the LXMini, so the space requirements are considerably less than the LX521. There are people who have successfully used a conventional closed box sub with the minis, so it's not strictly necessary to use the Linkwitz dipole +2 sub or the LX521 sub. I would only recommend the LX521 sub if you can site them at least a metre from the front wall. The LXMini+2 sub is easier to place.
When it comes to imaging and soundstage the LXMini more than equals the LX521 IMO. You can sit way off centre and still get a rock solid instrument/singer placement and soundstage. The LX521 has more weight to the presentation even when using the LX521 sub with the LXMini primarily because of the 8" midbass driver that the LX521 uses. But, even without any low bass unit the LXMinis still provide decent bass in my living room due to some lucky room reinforcement at about 50Hz.
I think if the LXMinis were going to be my main speakers, (and I'd be perfectly happy to have them as my main speakers if I didn't already have the LX521s - the Minis didn't exist when I bought the LX521 plans) I would be looking at getting them set up first and then going for whatever bass unit might best fit. I would look at getting something like this Emotiva 8 channel amp (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/154657813801?hash=item240252f529:g:3kAAAOSwnaFhbV~ f) to get me up and running. You might be able to find a used MiniDSP4x10HD or the now discontinued NanoDigi2x8 with which you can use your own choice of DACs (just make sure thay are all the same). You can build it slowly this way without having to invest a lot up front.
Pigmy Pony
12-11-2021, 23:03
Thank you Gordon, all useful information, and the idea that I can introduce it bit by bit without effectively ditching everything and starting over certainly appeals. Probably setting myself up for a new wave of upgraditis though:)
Floyddroid
13-11-2021, 05:46
I will contact gordon and asked him to glance at this thread.
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