My Dac problem

[Welder]

I’m looking to complete my transition from vinyl to PC > Dac.
I really don’t want to spend months auditioning this product against that and I’m trying to reduce the shiny box volume, cables and storage mediums in the process.
Basically I just want to finish the transition with as little pissing about as possible.
My current listening environment and my hearing capability makes venturing any further up the “great expense for small return ladder” pointless apart from possibly an improved Dac.

Despite what I consider to be a reasonably competent mod to accept balanced input my current Exposure 25RC amp was not designed for balanced audio input.
The HRT Music Streamer 11 + I think suited my system and my ears better than the Pro.
I think the Pro would be an outstanding addition in the right system, just not in mine.
I’m extremely fond of the sound I have come to expect from the Exposure amp and fed by analogue into my speakers, producing what for me at least, was a sound I have been happy to live with for many years. So, I don’t want to change the amp, or the speakers come to that:
Good though it is the HRT Music Streamer 11+ doesn’t quite match the capabilities of the rest of my system.
My entire system is 20 Hz to 20 kHz, a shame in some ways but there you have it.

I can and have adjusted my speakers to cope with small system matching and listening environment problems.

I have absolutely no interest in anything above 24/96 believing (backed by a considerable amount of science and opinion) that the chances of being able to distinguish between 24/192 and 24/96 are so remote my chances of winning the lottery with a one shot ticket are considerably better, plus a lot of other problems associated with generic software, etc, etc.

I want to use USB from PC to Dac, possibly firewire but definitely not SPDIF to transfer data.

I don’t want any glass tubes sticking out of the Dac.

I don’t want a headphone amp with the Dac, a volume control, multiple connection options, lots of pretty lights, preferably no switches and definitely none in the signal path and definitely not anything that reputedly sounds better after a considerable burn in period.
(My view on this is if it sounds like shite out of the box its probably because it is shite. If it sounds better after 200 hours of listening then it’s probably because you’ve come to appreciate the sound of shite) ;)

I don’t want a NOS Dac; built one, borrowed another, ghastly racket from both. :eek:

I would prefer an over-sampling Dac to an Up-sampling variety, but well implemented, either.

I want data transfer to be asynchronous by default and possibly adaptive as an option but not overly important.

I would prefer an outboard power supply with an option to purchase without.
If the supply is inboard then I would prefer non toriodal transformer.

I would like the circuitry to be laid out in a fashion that allows room for a bit of tweaking.

I would prefer the software to be proprietary rather than licensed.

Data transfer speed at USB 2.0 standard is fine; 3 capable might be nice for further developments.

I don’t want to spend more than £1000.
I want to be able to audition the Dac in my system in my listening environment.

So far, I have managed to identify one Dac that covers most of the above and that’s the Wyred4sound Dac2. The really irritating thing about this Dac is rather than further develop the output stage of the Dac the company has gone down the 24/192 capable path instead. What a bloody shame.
Also, as often the case with imported products the importer, rather than do the price conversion math’s opted for the easy route and just swapped the $ and £ sign.
Anyone in the USA want to send me one of these as a “present” avoiding tax, tax, tax, tax ,tax and dealer mark up?
The HRT Music Streamer11+ is so close to providing what I understand to be a non digital sound, it’s just a little short on dynamic capability at the frequency extremes.
I don’t find the sound grainy as some have and tone and impact, particularly in the midrange is excellent, dare I say better than my vinyl setup.
Most frustrating all round, products that are almost there and what do the manufacturers do; charge off in a totally pointless direction to cater for a load of marketing hype with no sonic benefits :steam:

[roob]

Hmm, don't want much do you?
Arcam R-dac or the soon to be released Audiolab Dac designed by John Westlake seem to fit the bill especially as you seem set on USB, Firewire dacs are thin on the ground at<£1000.

[Ali Tait]

You could just buy a Touch and use the analogue out.

[purite audio]

The new M2Tech ,async USB £650.
Keith.

[Ali Tait]

Have you heard it Keith?

[purite audio]

Ali Hi, I have seen it, I haven't heard it yet! But I will soon.
Keith.

[Stratmangler]

You could just buy a Touch and use the analogue out.

+1 - the analogue outs on the Touch are a damned site better than those on the SB3 or Receiver.

[Welder]

roob.
Thanks for the suggestions.
“Hmm, don't want much do you?”

It might seem a lot to ask but basically I’m looking for a asynchronous USB dac that concentrates getting the best out of USB data transfer at 24/96, much like the HRT, rather than trying appeal to a wider market by including a lot of options that are unlikely to be used and increase the cost.

The Arcam rDac.
I have no reason to think that this would offer any sonic improvement over either the HRT 11+ or the Pro.
The Audiolab Dac is way out of my budget.

Ali Tait.
Thanks for the suggestion.
“You could just buy a Touch and use the analogue out.”
I could indeed but I wouldn’t. The Touch is a neat enough gadget but once again has lots of stuff I would not use and I have no reason to think that it would be sonically superior to the HRT.

Keith.
Thanks, in the right sonic quality ball park at least.
I had considered the M2Tech but the extra cost involved in the Evo seems to be justified by its 24/192 capability and in my view its just a waste of money.
The other point is of course is it isn’t really a Dac, it’s a USB to S/PDIF converter and my amp takes RCA or XLR.
I could of course use the M2Tech output but it would mean at least a cable change and once again, while it is reputedly a very capable device I'm not convinced it offers any sonic improvements over the HRT.

[Clive]

I don't think the new Audiolab will be over your £1000 budget, indeed it's likey to be more like £500. Sabre dac chip, async USB...surely it's what you want.

Don't be too concerned about paying for features you don't want. By adding features eg spdif, the manufacturer increases sales volume and is then able to reduce unit costs. A dac with just the feature you want will have a restricted market and be priced accordingly (ie expensively).

[Welder]

Clive.
Ah, I must have been looking at the wrong model. Thanks for the info.
Also, in that case, thanks again to roob.
I’ll hunt around for some info. Does it have a model number or a web page with some details?

[Clive]

So far just 2 CDPs have been announced, shipping around now, the Dac is due shortly, I'll try to dig up a link.

[Clive]

Check the first post in the thread
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=83778

The designer, John Weslake has contributed.

[Ali Tait]

It's your money,but I still think the Touch would be a good way to go.It's analogue out is almost as good as my Audio Note dac,which for the money is pretty bloody good IMO.

[Welder]

Thanks for the link Clive, most thoughtful.
I’ll see what else I can find out about the designer and other products he may have had a hand in designing.

Ali Tait.
It is indeed my money but that isn’t my main concern; it’s my hearing, or maybe lack of it that have the final say on this matter.

I’ve heard the Touch and the Audio Note, not in my system I’ll grant you.
Yep, the Touch is a neat gadget. Audio performance I thought was a bit below the basic HRT.
Apart from this it has one major drawback for me and that is as a rule I don’t do white fruit raincoat company products. Irrational possibly, but what can I tell you ;)

The Audio Note Dac I heard was the Dac1.1 kit. Things may have improved with the latest kit. In my opinion they needed to improve quite a lot before they even began to compete with many of the budget Dac’s presently on the market. It’s not that the sonics were bad, just not good enough to warrant the price and the hassle of building the kit.

[webby]

Apart from this it has one major drawback for me and that is as a rule I don’t do white fruit raincoat company products. Irrational possibly, but what can I tell you ;)



?? I can't even think of a white fruit :scratch:

[Welder]

Lychees (?) ;)

But, as I'm sure you know i was refering to Apple Mac.

[webby]

Lychees (?) ;)

But, as I'm sure you know i was refering to Apple Mac.

Oh I see. However, I'm sure the Touch to which people are referring to is the Squeezebox Touch, not the iPod Touch.

Hope that helps John.

[Welder]

Ah, that would explain a lot.
I thought the Sqeezebox was a Mac product.

[Ali Tait]

Yes indeed I meant the Squeezebox Touch.It's a great piece of kit for the money,and best thing for me is the fact that you can connect a HD directly,so no need to run a pc all the time.Sound quality is very good indeed,and even better with an external dac IMO.

[webby]

Yes indeed I meant the Squeezebox Touch.It's a great piece of kit for the money,and best thing for me is the fact that you can connect a HD directly,so no need to run a pc all the time.Sound quality is very good indeed,and even better with an external dac IMO.

Puts the price up a bit though doesn't it? The SB Touch is what, £240? Add a DAC for £200 ish... that's quite a bit. I've read that the DAC in the SB Touch is pretty good on it's own.

[Welder]

Hmm, just phoned my daughter who has what I had assumed to be the Touch Ali referred to.
Apparently I’ve got it all wrong :eyebrows:
What she has, and what I’ve heard is a White Sonos streamer which she controls with a White touch screen ipod.
To be honest my initial reaction to Ali’s suggestion when reading “Touch” was to wonder if he had totally lost his marbles, being under the impression that what my daughter has is what he was referring to :doh:
So, my apologies to Ali Tait and now I’ll have to endure endless micky taking from my daughter and no doubt all her friends for not being up to date on the latest technology.
(To think I bought the pod thingy for her as well. I’ll never live this down :eek:)

[Ali Tait]

Puts the price up a bit though doesn't it? The SB Touch is what, £240? Add a DAC for £200 ish... that's quite a bit. I've read that the DAC in the SB Touch is pretty good on it's own.

That's why I recommended using the anlogue out,as it is very good.

[Stratmangler]

That's why I recommended using the anlogue out,as it is very good.

And having heard the analogue outs myself I too recommend it.
It was Ali's Touch at the last Owston meet.

[Ali Tait]

I don't think you can easily beat the Touch for the money.

[Welder]

Guys, please at least bear in mind my original post if you’re going to make suggestions.
I have a Dac. It really is very good.
I have a laptop as well and a PC for that matter.
I don’t need Wireless streaming.
I want asynchronous USB data transfer.

Firstly, do you really think the Logitech Sqeezebox offers better sound than the HRT Streamer Pro?
I know it offers a lot of other possible benefits but ……….
You say it’s not quite as good as your Audio Note Dac ali but you don’t say what model Dac it is (?) so I can only go by the AN Dac I’ve heard and that wasn’t up to much in my opinion.
I’m looking to improve the sound I get within my current system by upgrading the Dac.
I’m not looking to completely change it.

Oh yeah, in case it passed unnoticed, I'm prepared to spend up to a grand; less would be nice.

[HighFidelityGuy]

I'm a bit confused. It sounded like you wanted to buy a DAC that has async USB input but now you're saying that you already have a DAC (that you want to keep) and you want to connect it to your laptop via USB. Is that correct? :scratch:

If so then you basically need a USB soundcard with digital audio output. You will then have to connect this to your DAC with some sort of digital audio cable, whatever type that both devices have. There are a few devices available that do this but most are aimed at the pro audio market. The only other device I can think of is the hiFace Evo and this is the only one I know of that has async USB input.

Other than that your only other options are to buy a new DAC with USB input or to stream your music over a home network to a network player like a Squeezbox as others have suggested. All of these are possible for under £1000.

EDIT: I've just re-read your last post and noticed this:

"I’m looking to improve the sound I get within my current system by upgrading the Dac.
I’m not looking to completely change it."

Just to clarify, do you mean you mean you want to modify your existing DAC to include a USB input or that you want to swap your DAC for one with a USB input? :)

[Welder]

Hi HighFidelityGuy

“Just to clarify, do you mean you mean you want to modify your existing DAC to include a USB input or that you want to swap your DAC for one with a USB input?”

I already have an asynchronous USB Dac. It’s called an HRT Music Streamer Pro.
I want to upgrade my Dac if possible (see original post) while not changing the rest of the system.

[HighFidelityGuy]

Hi HighFidelityGuy

“Just to clarify, do you mean you mean you want to modify your existing DAC to include a USB input or that you want to swap your DAC for one with a USB input?”

I already have an asynchronous USB Dac. It’s called an HRT Music Streamer Pro.
I want to upgrade my Dac if possible (see original post) while not changing the rest of the system.

Cheers.

It's a bit of a tricky one this as there are so many DACs out there and so many possible setups. However, if you are really intent on using async USB from your laptop then that cuts down your options considerably.

If I were you and I was using my laptop as my source I personally wouldn't want any cables linking it to my Hi-Hi. I would find that messy and clumsy. So I would go for a streaming device like a Squeezebox Touch. That way the link between the laptop and Squeezebox can be wireless and you then have a much wider choice of DACs to choose from as you no longer have a need for USB input. You'd also still have over £700 to spend on the DAC and any new cables you needed. Saying that, you could just use the analogue out on the Touch as others have suggested and save yourself a bundle, especially if you sell your HRT. You could then always add a DAC later to upgrade the sound further. I think that's the most convenient and best value for money option. The Sqeezebox Transporter is slightly over your budget and probably not worth the extra based on what I've read about how good the Touch is.

If you really must have an async USB connection then there aren't that many DACs that have this yet and I'm not entirely sure if async it's self is worth fighting for. It's the latest buzz word but other DAC's with standard USB inputs like the Beresford 7520 and especially the Caiman prove just how good standard USB can be. These do take a while to run in though so they may annoy you. Personally I think it's worth the wait. ;)

I'm not sure if there are any async USB DACs around for about £1000. Most seem to be around £200 as most people that are willing to pay £1000 for a DAC wouldn't touch USB input's with a barge pole, so it's not a very big market. But if you're intent on using async USB then I'd just get an Arcam rDAC to try. I'm sure that will work well based on what I've read so far. :)

So Arcam rDAC or Sqeezebox Touch get my vote based on what's been said. :)

[squeezethatbuffalo]

The W4S DAC-2 seems perfect for you (except for the $1499 price tag).

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/wyred4/dac.html

[HighFidelityGuy]

The W4S DAC-2 seems perfect for you (except for the $1499 price tag).

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/wyred4/dac.html

Now that looks extremely interesting!
It's £1265 in the UK, which doesn't sound too bad when you consider all the features. LINK (http://www.itemaudio.co.uk/wyred_dac2.html)

EDIT: Or the DAC1 is only £875 if you don't need the extra features the DAC2 offers. LINK (http://www.itemaudio.co.uk/wyred_dac1.html)

[Welder]

Sqeezethatbuffalo

Yes indeed the W4S Dac2 would seem to be very close to my requirements.
Thank you very much for a sensible suggestion given my requirements.
The problem is, as I pointed out, when tax, shipping, dealer mark up, etc is taken into account it pushes the price outside my budget.
I’m trying to see if a direct import from W4S works out any cheaper.
Interestingly the info W4S give suggests that there is a 24/96 upgrade. What I don’t know is whether that includes the asynchronous software option. I’m waiting to hear from them.
Clive’s suggestion is also very helpful as I knew nothing about the John Weslake version of the Audio lab.
Part of my problem here is either my first post isn’t being read or those who make suggestions have no idea where the HRT Pro stands with regard to performance and consequently recommend Dac’s that would probably be a downgrade in sonic performance.

The sad fact is with regard to USB asynchronous USB Dacs, the USA is far ahead of the British manufacturers. Unfortunately this means unless one is prepared to pay exorbitant amounts of money for Weiss or some of the European “audiophile” Dacs you’re pretty much stuck with a USA import until the UK manufacturers catch up.

HighFidelityGuy
Why on earth would I want to do this? :eek:
“you could just use the analogue out on the Touch as others have suggested and save yourself a bundle, especially if you sell your HRT. You could then always add a DAC later to upgrade the sound further.”

What you are suggesting is I sell my HRT Pro which I have every reason to believe gives a better sonic performance than the squeezebox, effectively downgrading so that I can have the convenience of wireless streaming and then spend another few hundred pounds on another Dac to upgrade the squeezebox.
I’m after improved sonic performance if that’s possible within my budget, not a gadget which is primarily noted for its convenience and versatility.

“Most seem to be around £200 as most people that are willing to pay £1000 for a DAC wouldn't touch USB input's with a barge pole, so it's not a very big market “

I think you will find you are both badly informed and badly mistaken on this account.
Just as a few examples of Dac’s offering asynchronous USB as a primary means of data transfer:
Wyred4Sound Dac2
Arcam rDac
Ayre QB-9
dCS Debussy
Wavelength
BD designs
HRT
Weiss

I would love to have a discussion on the benefits of asynchronous data transfer via USB but not here and not now.

I don’t wish to be rude or seem ungrateful for your response to my problem, but have you read my first post and are you familiar with the sonic capabilities of the HRT range?
May I suggest a bit of reading; better still, try one out.
http://www.highresolutiontechnologies.com/
http://www.avguide.com/review/hrt-streamer-ii-and-streamer-ii-hi-fi-72
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/hrt2/pro.html

I listened to the Beresford 7520 in my system before I bought the basic level HRT Music Streamer 11 when I initially set out on this vinyl to digital transfer.
It’s not a bad Dac in its class but I found that even the basic HRT MS 11 outperformed it.
I realize this Dac has a bit of a cult following here but I wonder if that has more to do with the sellers and owners enthusiasm for modding it rather than it’s out of the box performance.

With regard to the Arcam rDAc, I have not heard one yet not read much about its sonic capabilities.
From what little I have read it would seem to sit in performance terms around the HRT Music Streamer 11+ band. The main difference with the newest model being its streaming ability.

[squeezethatbuffalo]

I would've recommended the DAC1, except John specifically asked for a DAC that does asynch USB up to at least 24/96.

[squeezethatbuffalo]

Hi John,

If you don't mind adding another piece of component into your chain, then the W4S DAC1 + M2Tech HiFace might be your best bet.

Edit: Sorry, I got a bit confused. For some reason I kept thinking that you live in the States ;)

[webby]

I listened to the Beresford 7520 in my system before I bought the basic level HRT Music Streamer 11 when I initially set out on this vinyl to digital transfer.
It’s not a bad Dac in its class but I found that even the basic HRT MS 11 outperformed it.
I realize this Dac has a bit of a cult following here but I wonder if that has more to do with the sellers and owners enthusiasm for modding it rather than it’s out of the box performance.



Didn't I read somewhere that the Caiman can reveal the difference between a FLAC and a WAV file?[/QUOTE]

[Welder]

Hi Alex.
Now that is a possibility that hadn’t crossed my mind. Thank you :)
Nope, don’t really care if its two components as long as the sound quality justifies it, but if possible I would prefer a single box solution.
The Hi Face hardly counts as “a big shiny box” ;)


I’ll do the maths but I think the combination would be outside my budget when all the extra costs are taken into account.

The sad part about all this for me is the HRT Pro is a really excellent Dac and at a cost of £475, plus say another £100 for cables/adaptors (unless you are willing to go the route I did and alter the amp inputs) it’s a no brainer for anyone with an amp designed for balanced audio.
Anyway, it’s got to go. Hopefully I won’t lose out that badly financially given I have a couple of mates trying to steal it :eek:

[Welder]

webby
I read pigs can fly somewhere as well ;)

[Alex_UK]

I realize this Dac has a bit of a cult following here but I wonder if that has more to do with the sellers and owners enthusiasm for modding it rather than it’s out of the box performance.

To a degree this is true, but there have been good independent hifi press reviews about them unmodified, (and indeed I haven't felt the need to modify my Caiman at all, which has also been received favourably in its unaltered state.) Fine, if the 7520 wasn't for you, but I don't think it just *us* here that have found Stans products to punch well above their weight, before even getting the soldering iron out or having been inspired to buy one from the reviews here (I only found AoS after getting my DAC.) The Caiman is by all accounts in a different league (I've never compared the two personally) to the 7520, by the way, using a completely different chipset.

Not in any way suggesting a Caiman is suitable for your shopping list by the way, just my opinion on your question re. the 7520. ;)

[HighFidelityGuy]

Didn't I read somewhere that the Caiman can reveal the difference between a FLAC and a WAV file?

Yep Stan said he could since he did the passive output mod I think.


Sqeezethatbuffalo

Yes indeed the W4S Dac2 would seem to be very close to my requirements.
Thank you very much for a sensible suggestion given my requirements.
The problem is, as I pointed out, when tax, shipping, dealer mark up, etc is taken into account it pushes the price outside my budget.
I’m trying to see if a direct import from W4S works out any cheaper.
Interestingly the info W4S give suggests that there is a 24/96 upgrade. What I don’t know is whether that includes the asynchronous software option. I’m waiting to hear from them.
Clive’s suggestion is also very helpful as I knew nothing about the John Weslake version of the Audio lab.
Part of my problem here is either my first post isn’t being read or those who make suggestions have no idea where the HRT Pro stands with regard to performance and consequently recommend Dac’s that would probably be a downgrade in sonic performance.

The sad fact is with regard to USB asynchronous USB Dacs, the USA is far ahead of the British manufacturers. Unfortunately this means unless one is prepared to pay exorbitant amounts of money for Weiss or some of the European “audiophile” Dacs you’re pretty much stuck with a USA import until the UK manufacturers catch up.

HighFidelityGuy
Why on earth would I want to do this? :eek:
“you could just use the analogue out on the Touch as others have suggested and save yourself a bundle, especially if you sell your HRT. You could then always add a DAC later to upgrade the sound further.”

What you are suggesting is I sell my HRT Pro which I have every reason to believe gives a better sonic performance than the squeezebox, effectively downgrading so that I can have the convenience of wireless streaming and then spend another few hundred pounds on another Dac to upgrade the squeezebox.
I’m after improved sonic performance if that’s possible within my budget, not a gadget which is primarily noted for its convenience and versatility.

“Most seem to be around £200 as most people that are willing to pay £1000 for a DAC wouldn't touch USB input's with a barge pole, so it's not a very big market “

I think you will find you are both badly informed and badly mistaken on this account.
Just as a few examples of Dac’s offering asynchronous USB as a primary means of data transfer:
Wyred4Sound Dac2
Arcam rDac
Ayre QB-9
dCS Debussy
Wavelength
BD designs
HRT
Weiss

I would love to have a discussion on the benefits of asynchronous data transfer via USB but not here and not now.

I don’t wish to be rude or seem ungrateful for your response to my problem, but have you read my first post and are you familiar with the sonic capabilities of the HRT range?
May I suggest a bit of reading; better still, try one out.
http://www.highresolutiontechnologies.com/
http://www.avguide.com/review/hrt-streamer-ii-and-streamer-ii-hi-fi-72
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/hrt2/pro.html

I listened to the Beresford 7520 in my system before I bought the basic level HRT Music Streamer 11 when I initially set out on this vinyl to digital transfer.
It’s not a bad Dac in its class but I found that even the basic HRT MS 11 outperformed it.
I realize this Dac has a bit of a cult following here but I wonder if that has more to do with the sellers and owners enthusiasm for modding it rather than it’s out of the box performance.

With regard to the Arcam rDAc, I have not heard one yet not read much about its sonic capabilities.
From what little I have read it would seem to sit in performance terms around the HRT Music Streamer 11+ band. The main difference with the newest model being its streaming ability.

Firstly, I must apologise for my obviously outdated belief that async USB wasn't that common yet, especially in high end DACs. You obviously have much better product knowledge in this area than me.

However, if I'm not mistaken, most of those other than the HRT and Arcam are over your budget. So the problem you have is that you need to find something that fit's in between. I'm not aware of any such products that are available off the shelf.

Alex's suggestion of the DAC1 fed by hiFace EVO seems like a good choice to me but it may end up costing more than the DAC2. That is unless you find out that the DAC1 will have asnc 24/96 in the future. Acording to the official Wyred 4 Sound dealer in the UK they guarantee to beat the import cost, so I doubt you'll get a better price than that but it's worth a try.

Overall though you have given us a rather difficult problem to solve. You basically want us to suggest the best DAC for your needs, but you're unwilling to compare products at home or tollerate anything that needs running in. As it turns out it sounds like there aren't many products available in your price range yet, so perhaps Alex has hit the nail on the head with the W4S DAC1/2.

If you lived a bit closer I'd be happy to bring my modded Caiman round for you to listen to as it will be entirely different to the 7520 you heard. Whether or not it would beat the DAC1/2 or the HRT Pro who knows but I'd be interested to do a comparison one day.

Let us know how you get on as it sounds like your breaking new ground in an area as yet unexplored by AoS members. I would be particularly interested to know if you try out the hiFace Evo as I'm thinking about trying one as a replacement for my soundcard so I can try out async USB.

I wish you luck in your quest. :)

[squeezethatbuffalo]

Didn't I read somewhere that the Caiman can reveal the difference between a FLAC and a WAV file?

That's one of the reasons why I find the Touch to be a great investment.

The Touch is not merely a decent DAC. By streaming PCM (via ethernet) from the computer and using the SBT purely as a receiver/streamer, you get (almost) all the benefits of computer audio, but none of the downsides associated with using a noisy (mechanically and electrically) PC.

The Touch also offers the user more freedom: no longer are the audio components tethered to the PC, and suddenly there are many more DACs to choose from! :lol:

[webby]

That's one of the reasons why I find the Touch to be a great investment.

The Touch is not merely a decent DAC. By streaming PCM (via ethernet) from the computer and using the SBT purely as a receiver/streamer, you get (almost) all the benefits of computer audio, but none of the downsides associated with using a noisy (mechanically and electrically) PC.

The Touch also offers the user more freedom: no longer are the audio components tethered to the PC, and suddenly there are many more DACs to choose from! :lol:

I can do that with an Airport Express too, no?

[squeezethatbuffalo]

Yep Stan said he could since he did the passive output mod I think.



Firstly, I must apologise for my obviously outdated belief that async USB wasn't that common yet, especially in high end DACs. You obviously have much better product knowledge in this area than me.

However, if I'm not mistaken, most of those other than the HRT and Arcam are over your budget. So the problem you have is that you need to find something that fit's in between. I'm not aware of any such products that are available off the shelf.

Alex's suggestion of the DAC1 fed by hiFace EVO seems like a good choice to me but it may end up costing more than the DAC2. That is unless you find out that the DAC1 will have asnc 24/96 in the future. Acording to the official Wyred 4 Sound dealer in the UK they guarantee to beat the import cost, so I doubt you'll get a better price than that but it's worth a try.

Overall though you have given us a rather difficult problem to solve. You basically want us to suggest the best DAC for your needs, but you're unwilling to compare products at home or tollerate anything that needs running in. As it turns out it sounds like there aren't many products available in your price range yet, so perhaps Alex has hit the nail on the head with the W4S DAC1/2.

If you lived a bit closer I'd be happy to bring my modded Caiman round for you to listen to as it will be entirely different to the 7520 you heard. Whether or not it would beat the DAC1/2 or the HRT Pro who knows but I'd be interested to do a comparison one day.

Let us know how you get on as it sounds like your breaking new ground in an area as yet unexplored by AoS members. I would be particularly interested to know if you try out the hiFace Evo as I'm thinking about trying one as a replacement for my soundcard so I can try out async USB.

I wish you luck in your quest. :)

Hi Dave,

I was referring to the plain old hiface (the one that looks like a USB drive), not the new Evo.

In retrospect, the hiface was probably a bad recommendation anyway, as - much to my dismay - I just found out that they increased its price to $199! :stalks:

There's no way I'd tell someone to buy the hiface over the $299 Touch :ner:

[squeezethatbuffalo]

I can do that with an Airport Express too, no?

Very likely, but I can't recommend the Airport Express to John, since it doesn't support 24/96 material.

[Welder]

HighFidelityGuy

My apologies if I’ve come over a bit blunt and thank you for the responses to my posts.

Please take my “burn in” comments with a pinch of salt. However, I have yet to find any rational explanation as to why electronic components should sound any better after a lengthy “burn in” time.
This doesn’t of course rule out that it may indeed make an audible difference, but as a starting point at least, I tend to lean towards a rational explanation of the capabilities of Hi Fi components :)

Yes, a comparison between the Caiman and the HRT might be interesting. However, given I’ve ruled out SPDIF as a connection, I think the Caiman being designed primarily for SPDIF data transfer may not perform at its best using USB compared to the HRT which is specifically designed for USB.

From my original post:
“I want to be able to audition the Dac in my system in my listening environment.”
What I am trying to avoid is endless hours of trying to compare what turn out to be totally unsuitable products.
In fact, the HRT Music Streamer Dacs are the only Hi FI component I have ever purchased without first listening to them in my own system.
Given the success of this shot in the dark (bar this current balanced audio problem I now face) perhaps I should revise my approach to improving my system :scratch:

As you note, there do not seem to be many products matching my wish list.
I have what I consider to be rational explanations based on considerable reading and some component experience in my choice of criterion for my ideal Dac.
If I lived in the USA the choices in the given price range would be much greater.
It may be a case of waiting for the product availability and newer technology to reach the UK at more reasonable prices.

Alex
Thank you for your response.
I haven’t heard the newest version of the Caiman. I did read a fair amount about the Beresford range and as I mentioned, heard the standard 7520.
The problem here is I believe, rightly or wrongly, that USB (at the moment asynchronous transfer seems to offer some considerable advantages over SPDIF) is the way forward for computer audio. Consequently, in an attempt to minimize that “omg, I must try out this new type of Dac” I’m hoping that a competent Dac using this technology will suffice until I’ve either burnt out what hearing capabilities I still have (55 now mate and not going backwards) or drop dead with a contented audio related grin on my face. Fat chance given I’m told only the good die young ;)

I have read a great deal of Caiman related stuff. I have no doubt Beresford’s enthusiastic unpaid modding team have helped a great deal in enabling Beresford to market a much improved Dac from the 7520 I have heard.

[John]

I do not have a Caiman but most people seem to report that there is a big difference between a new one and one with a few hundred hours of use I have heard burn in effect on a few items
It seems thankfully you never had to experience the burn in effect of Black gates
Good luck with your search I think you right it may take a bit of time for the market to fill what you looking for

[HighFidelityGuy]

HighFidelityGuy

My apologies if I’ve come over a bit blunt and thank you for the responses to my posts.

Please take my “burn in” comments with a pinch of salt. However, I have yet to find any rational explanation as to why electronic components should sound any better after a lengthy “burn in” time.
This doesn’t of course rule out that it may indeed make an audible difference, but as a starting point at least, I tend to lean towards a rational explanation of the capabilities of Hi Fi components :)

Yes, a comparison between the Caiman and the HRT might be interesting. However, given I’ve ruled out SPDIF as a connection, I think the Caiman being designed primarily for SPDIF data transfer may not perform at its best using USB compared to the HRT which is specifically designed for USB.

From my original post:
“I want to be able to audition the Dac in my system in my listening environment.”
What I am trying to avoid is endless hours of trying to compare what turn out to be totally unsuitable products.
In fact, the HRT Music Streamer Dacs are the only Hi FI component I have ever purchased without first listening to them in my own system.
Given the success of this shot in the dark (bar this current balanced audio problem I now face) perhaps I should revise my approach to improving my system :scratch:

As you note, there do not seem to be many products matching my wish list.
I have what I consider to be rational explanations based on considerable reading and some component experience in my choice of criterion for my ideal Dac.
If I lived in the USA the choices in the given price range would be much greater.
It may be a case of waiting for the product availability and newer technology to reach the UK at more reasonable prices.

Alex
Thank you for your response.
I haven’t heard the newest version of the Caiman. I did read a fair amount about the Beresford range and as I mentioned, heard the standard 7520.
The problem here is I believe, rightly or wrongly, that USB (at the moment asynchronous transfer seems to offer some considerable advantages over SPDIF) is the way forward for computer audio. Consequently, in an attempt to minimize that “omg, I must try out this new type of Dac” I’m hoping that a competent Dac using this technology will suffice until I’ve either burnt out what hearing capabilities I still have (55 now mate and not going backwards) or drop dead with a contented audio related grin on my face. Fat chance given I’m told only the good die young ;)

I have read a great deal of Caiman related stuff. I have no doubt Beresford’s enthusiastic unpaid modding team have helped a great deal in enabling Beresford to market a much improved Dac from the 7520 I have heard.

No Problem, I just slightly misunderstood what you were trying to achieve and also didn't realise async USB was quite as common as it obviously is. :)

I think you're probably right about the Caiman/7520 USB input not being quite as good as some of the latest async inputs on other DACs, but the DACs them selves are very good, they were just designed to primarily be used with SPDIF inputs. The USB input was added for extra value. If you could swap the Caiman's USB input board for one that used async USB then I think the results would be interesting. But then I guess that would be similar to using a hiFace between the computer and one of the Caiman's SPDIF inputs. I guess it depends on what type of signal comes out the back of the Caiman's USB board, whether it's I2S or SPDIF or whatever. I have wondered about modding a hiFace and installing it inside my Caiman but I need to learn more about digital electronics first.

[squeezethatbuffalo]

Hi John,

I have no doubt that async USB can be potentially better than SPDIF in the context of using a computer as a transport/source, as it eliminates the need for conversion to SPDIF.

I do have a few gripes about async USB devices, however. Compared to ethernet streamers, they are much more susceptible to PC-side interference. Even though async USB DACs do a better job of blocking out PC garbage than sound cards, the computer still has a significant impact on sound quality. And you wouldn't want to touch "PC optimization" with a ten-foot pole. I've been there. :trust:

Not to mention availability. Async USB DACs consist like what, 1% of the market? Your choices become much more limited. And like you said, the DACs are probably better off if the money has been spent on "further develop[ing] the output stage of the Dac" instead of fancy features ;)

Cheers,

[Welder]

Sqeezethebuffalo

I must admit, I did struggle like **** with the computer side of file audio when I first started :steam:
This is despite having completely rebuilt the guts of my current PC and having a reasonable grasp of computer through my very keen interest in video gamming.

Firstly there is the bit perfect output maze exacerbated by the ridiculously complicated way the drivers and core audio components in the windows environment are stacked :scratch:
Then there is the “which player” decision to grapple with; some do horrible things with the data retrieval by using a small offset, others won’t do kernel streaming, others cost money (a lot in some cases) some perform better with true ASIO drivers, some are okay with ASIO wraps like AISO4all.

Then of course you’ve got the strange way USB protocol allocates power in 100mA packets to some USB ports but not to others.
Then you’ve got all the problems associated with the 5V and 500mA current limit with class 2.0 USB.
If you’re lucky you may have a “charging” USB port able to supply 1.8 Amps continuous power.

I even built a smoothed, regulated 5V galvanically isolated power supply for my HRT’s but given their design topology this proved to be a pointless exercise.

It took a lot of messing about to shut down all that constant CPU activity that windows services seems to demand and allocating a single USB controller to a single port was another hassle.

But, if you’re prepared to learn and experiment I reckon asynchronous USB data transfer is as they say “the dogs bollocks” compared to all the agg involved in getting noise free audio out of SPDIF.

I may well be a cantankerous old git struggling with new technology but at the moment at least I’m winning.
I don’t get drop outs. I don’t get any significant computer related noise and most of all I get glorious sound at around 15 watts and above of amp power driving my speakers ;)

[squeezethatbuffalo]

Haha, consider yourself lucky ;)

Go and take a look, you'll be surprised to see how far these crazy (http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/etv.mpl?forum=pcaudio) people can go just to "get it right". I was one of them.

Let's just say that I'm glad that I gave away my linear PSU-powered, fanless, SSD only, massively tweaked audio PC and settled for a (slightly) tweaked Squeezebox Touch. For the first time in two years, I can finally relax and listen to music instead of wondering whether I'm using the best RAM or BIOS settings. Oh I wish I were exaggerating.

Then again, that's just me rambling. If you're perfectly happy with your computer, and have no intention of tweaking it like a madman :lol:, then by all means stick with what you have

[purite audio]

Buy a Mac, async is the way ahead imho.
Keith.

[Welder]

I am going to try to have a listen of the Logitech Sqeezebox touch at some point.
First, (oh the embarrassement) I'm going to get my daughter to bring her Sonos over and see what i can sqeeze out of that.
Some of what I've recently read says the Sonso performs sonically as well as the Touch.
Anyway, whether it does or it doesn't, it's in the right ball park.

EDIT.

With regard to your “other” forum and file audio in general.
I try to bear this in mind when thinking about computer audio.
Data is just data in the eyes of a computer. It is not until that data reaches the analogue stage in the chain that data can be considered as sound.

Computers are data handling experts; it’s what they do best (like tiger and bouncing- (Winni The Poo))

[Ali Tait]

Haha, consider yourself lucky ;)

Go and take a look, you'll be surprised to see how far these crazy (http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/etv.mpl?forum=pcaudio) people can go just to "get it right". I was one of them.

Let's just say that I'm glad that I gave away my linear PSU-powered, fanless, SSD only, massively tweaked audio PC and settled for a (slightly) tweaked Squeezebox Touch. For the first time in two years, I can finally relax and listen to music instead of wondering whether I'm using the best RAM or BIOS settings. Oh I wish I were exaggerating.

Then again, that's just me rambling. If you're perfectly happy with your computer, and have no intention of tweaking it like a madman :lol:, then by all means stick with what you have

How is your touch modded Alex?

[squeezethatbuffalo]

Hi Ali,

I wouldn't use the word modded, since the improvements (let's just assume they all are ;)) made to my Touch are all reversible.

1) DIY linear power supply (http://ucccap.myweb.hinet.net/pics/NGRsch02.jpg) for the Touch.
2) Soundchek's software tweaks for Touch
3) Short patch of superior quality ethernet cable from router to Touch. No, not the silly "audiophile" variety, just unshielded CAT6A with gold plated plugs.
4) Router powered by a linear supply based on John Swenson's Power supply design for low power PC (http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=pcaudio&n=42853&).

Cheers,

[HighFidelityGuy]

The AQVOX USB2 Mk2 (http://www.analogueseduction.net/product/AQVOX_USB2_Digital_to_Analogue_Converter_AQVUSB2) seems like an interesting option, although I'm a little put off by the upsampling and it doesn't sound like it has async USB. It's maybe worth a look though.

EDIT: Hmm, actually it looks like it uses the same DAC chip as your current DAC, so probably not much of an upgrade. Oh well, it looked good at first glance. :)

[James G]

The whole time I was reading your OP I was also thinking wyred4sound. I have been looking at that dac for a couple of months now. Also the ability to plug and play upgrade boards in the future sounds interesting.
I would try emailing Rick Cullen at Cullen Circuits, who is the owner of the wyred4sound brand. He personally answers email from the website and is very helpful. Maybe he could tell you something good.

[Ali Tait]

Hi Ali,

I wouldn't use the word modded, since the improvements (let's just assume they all are ;)) made to my Touch are all reversible.

1) DIY linear power supply (http://ucccap.myweb.hinet.net/pics/NGRsch02.jpg) for the Touch.
2) Soundchek's software tweaks for Touch
3) Short patch of superior quality ethernet cable from router to Touch. No, not the silly "audiophile" variety, just unshielded CAT6A with gold plated plugs.
4) Router powered by a linear supply based on John Swenson's Power supply design for low power PC (http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=pcaudio&n=42853&).

Cheers,

Cheers Alex,I already use a regulated linear supply.I'm intrigued by using a linear supply on the router.Does that make a real improvement?

[Welder]

Thanks for the link HiFidelityGuy
I haven’t come across this make before.
Lots of buttons, and features I wouldn’t use unfortunately. Having the same Dac chip wouldn’t necessarily be a problem, but as you say, it’s not asynchronous and I can’t see what method they use to combat noise.

James G
Thanks for the suggestion.
I will try an email to Mr Cullen. I’m particularly interested in their statement that the Dac1 will be revised to give 24/96 capability. If this should involve asynchronous transfer as well and the price is lower than the Dac2, I may well be sorted.
I read the 6 Moons review of the Dac2. While not a great believer in the value of reviews in general it was interesting to note that the reviewer struggled to find any sonic difference between this Dac and the overpriced Weiss.
The layout of the W4S Dac also gives the possibility for a bit of tweaking, something which is virtually impossible with the HRT Pro due to its topology. For example, it would look as if an alternative transformer (considering a Jentezen) and other power supply improvements are quite feasible.
In general W4S seem to at least try to produce competent products at reasonable prices.
Of course I may find, if and when I get to listen to the up rated Dac1, that I cant hear any sonic improvement compared to the HRT using my current system, but that possibility wont stop me wanting to findout.

[squeezethatbuffalo]

I think so, but it's somewhat subtle and not something you'd immediately notice.

I only did it because I believe that the router is "part of the chain", as it sends PCM stream to the Touch and provides isolation from PC-side interference.

Then again, whatever improvement I have perceived may simply be the result of reduced mains noise, since the router's supply is plugged into the same PS audio power strip as my other source components.

As you can tell by the ranking of my list, the router ps mod is something that one can have or live without. Unless you have a readily available power supply like I did, you're probably better off spending your time/resources elsewhere. ;)

[Ali Tait]

Well I have several regulated linear supplies I liberated from work,but I'm currently using my Touch with HD connected directly,so no point doing this at the moment.I am awaiting the arrival of a Gurupug though,so I may try it then.

[squeezethatbuffalo]

In my experience, the Touch is best used as a streamer/receiver. Its sonic performance is noticeably better when you allow the PC(NAS) to act as the server/storage.

[Ali Tait]

Yes,I've read that in several places now.

[Welder]

I’m still looking for the “right” Dac.

I had the opportunity to listen to a Bryston BDA-1 in my system. I did a swap for a day.
As I understand it this is a top quality Dac by reputation and more expensive than my current budget of grand allows for.
It’s also more expensive than my main prospective candidate, the upgraded Wyred4sound Dac1, should it ever get to market.

The system the Bryston came from has to my ears a lovely sound but at approximately 4 times the overall cost and set up in a more favorable environment I wouldn’t expect any less.

Taking into account my less than ideal listening environment I still had high expectations of hearing a marked sonic improvement over my HRT.
The problem is, I didn’t hear the degree of improvement I had expected.
It did sound different, a bigger sound stage and perhaps slightly more detail but……….

Now I’m aware that Hi Fi in general seems to be subject to the law of diminishing returns.
I can’t help wondering that after a certain level of design competence and manufacturing standard the sonic performances of Dacs are much closer than one might believe form some of the comments and reviews one reads.
Apparently my HRT Pro sounded great in my friends system. No, he doesn’t want to replace his Bryston with my HRT but he and I both agree the experiment was a bit of a shocker.
I’m going to listen to my HRT in his system next.
What we both agree on is we expect to find is that the listening environment makes a greater difference to a systems sonic performance than component upgrades at this level.

Interestingly perhaps a contributor to another forum recently upgraded from a Dac Magic to a Weiss Dac2 and he estimated he hears a 1.5% improvement in his system with the Weiss compared to the Dac Magic. Now I know it’s difficult to assess sonic performance in terms of percentage but the comparison was honestly estimated.

I wondered if anyone else cared to estimate the performance increase they have experienced in changing Dac?

[Ali Tait]

Yes I'd agree,a lot of commercial dacs sound very similar these days.Have you tried any with valve output stages?

[HighFidelityGuy]

On the subject of output stages, many DACs have opamp based output stages and I believe this is one of the main reasons why many seem to sound similar. One of the biggest improvements I've heard in my system was from swapping the opamp output stage on my Caiman DAC for a simple passive capacitor setup. I'm still experimenting with different capacitors to fine tune the sound but even a pair of cheap electrolytics were better than the opamp and the opamp used was one of the best available. I'd say that this gave me at least a 10% improvement as it improved all the areas I care about most. Other things like my speakers and big things like that gave me a bigger improvement but they were all done before this. So the fact that the passive mod provided such a big improvement just shows how important the DAC's output stage is.

So I'd recommend that you look for DACs that have had extra special attention paid to their output stage. That should ensure that they perform that bit better than more standard DACs.

The power supply is also very important, so look for a DAC with a well designed and constructed supply. :)

[Effem]

To my hearing the latest generation of DACs sound pretty much alike now -cheap or expensive. Even the NOS DACs don't get my juices flowing at all.

My favourite DACs are still the old 20 bit USA built designs which have a smoothness and richness the modern DACs seem to lack.

[Reid Malenfant]

So I'd recommend that you look for DACs that have had extra special attention paid to their output stage. That should ensure that they perform that bit better than more standard DACs.
Good point :) Perhaps that's why i'm pretty happy with mine as it's a totally discrete circuit & operates in class A, it runs pretty warm & puts out more heat than my pre amp which is also completely discrete class A :scratch:

I'm always open to improvements though, show me a DCS Purcell & Delius at the right price & i'll jump at the chance :eyebrows:


My favourite DACs are still the old 20 bit USA built designs which have a smoothness and richness the modern DACs seem to lack.
:lol: Exactly what i'm using - Monarchy Audio dual 20 bit DAC ;)

[roob]

Maybe something here will tickle you fancy
http://www.lampizator.eu/szop/L-Szop/BEST_DAC.html

[Ali Tait]

To my hearing the latest generation of DACs sound pretty much alike now -cheap or expensive. Even the NOS DACs don't get my juices flowing at all.

My favourite DACs are still the old 20 bit USA built designs which have a smoothness and richness the modern DACs seem to lack.

Examples?

[Effem]

Good point :)


:lol: Exactly what i'm using - Monarchy Audio dual 20 bit DAC ;)

I had one too around 5 years ago and deeply regretted selling it :(

Another favourite of mine was the PS Audio Digital Link.

THE best DAC I ever owned was an Anodyne Vertex two box valve output one that sounded sweet as a nut, but it drove me demented having both power switches on the rear panels which meant doing acrobatics over the top of the rack to reach them. It had two push switches on the front panel and it was a pain pressing them in a certain order to get any sound out of it. Second best was a Timbre TT1 DAC I sold late last year because I needed the cash

[Welder]

Ali Tait

I haven’t tried a valve Dac in my system. I’ve heard a couple in other peoples system and they’ve sounded okay. Not sure if the valve aspect of them makes much difference tbh.
The problem is is that the valve Dacs I know anything about and would be interested in hearing are hard to find in this country. The Ayre range for example.

HighFidelityGuy

I think I would agree with you in general. This is one of the reasons the Wyred4sound Dac looked interesting. Unlike my HRT it would seem to have potential to mod the output stage. Whether of not it could be improved by 10% is another matter.
I’m fairly well set on USB transfer so as long as the Dac is well isolated the power supply shouldn’t be so much of an issue.

Effem

I wasn’t impressed by the NOS Dacs I’ve heard. They seem to be a bit noisy. Perhaps I haven’t heard a particularly good implementation yet.
I have heard a PS Audio digital link 111 and while it was a competent Dac with a pleasant sound I didn’t think it compared well to a number of other Dacs in that price range when I heard it.

Reid Malenfant
I haven’t heard either of the Dacs you mention.
Do they really sound any better than a more modern good quality Dac?

Roob

They certainly look nice but tbh I’m not a great fan of valve kit. I appreciate that many here are and say they hear a smoother more natural sound from them. I have in the past had valve amps, I still have a valve based headphone amp. I cant say with any honesty that I think a valve setup can offer anything a properly designed solid state product cant.
The other thing is I really want to try to avoid having to use SPDIF.

[purite audio]

You should try the new M2Tech async USB dacs,when they are released in September.
Keith.

[Ali Tait]

Have you considered a diy design? That way,you could have exactly what you want.

[Reid Malenfant]

I haven’t heard either of the Dacs you mention.
Do they really sound any better than a more modern good quality Dac?
Tbh i really don't know ;) The DCS stuff i mentioned i actually haven't ever heard myself knowingly.

I also couldn't comment on whether the Monarchy Audio DAC is even up to the same standard as a modern £2000 bit of kit as again i haven't exactly been keen on replacing it so i haven't auditioned any others :eyebrows:

There are a few DACs that i'd entertain that should be an improvement & none are really that modern. The DCS Purcell upscaler & Delius DAC should certainly out perform what i have here. I'd also entertain either a Krell SPX64 or the Reference DAC, anything else i really wouldn't be sure about at all & would need to get a good listen to.

Unfortunately none of the above are likely to be very useful to you...

[Welder]

Ali Tait
I have had a look at a number of kits available.
There are a couple of problems with kits for me.
Ideally I want to audition any piece of equipment I buy. This is a bit more difficult when considering a kit.
I have built various kits in the past, including a NOS Dac kit and my current headphone amplifier and ideally would like to avoid having to do much more than a bit of modding with regard to Dacs and amps.
When I built the above kits and other mainly valve based kits in the past I had access to decent test equipment and professional advice in the event of making a mistake or finding a problem I couldn’t solve with a few fairly basic tools.
The tools I do have are speaker building related which is the kind of audio DIY I am most at home with.
As for building a Dac from scratch, I don’t have the necessary knowledge or the right equipment to build anything that is likely to compare well to a well designed and commercially manufactured product. It’s not so much the building skills, it’s getting the right topology that I would find virtually impossible. Many of the small Dac manufacturers have a similar problem and take an established design know to work well and make improvements using different components and fairly minor topology changes. Not only is this time consuming but also rather hit and miss :)

Reid Malenfant

“Unfortunately none of the above are likely to be very useful to you...”
Far from it.
I didn’t know anything about the DCS Purcell and Delius. I can see why you think it may be an improvement on your current Dac (you very very polite and didn’t mention my current Dac in your hypothetical comparison ;)) Thanks, for both the delicate approach and the Dac information :)
It certainly looks to be a very serious piece of equipment in performance and build quality from what I’ve managed to discover. Unfortunately way outside my budget, even second hand I would imagine :eek:
Any room for one more in your dream cupboard? ;)

[Ali Tait]

Well I've heard a DIY Buffalo dac built by a friend,with both the ivy output stage and a valve output stage of his own design,and the valve output was the best digital I've ever heard.

[Welder]

I’m finally going to get to listen to a Wyred4Sound Dac2.
I’m really hoping this does the business and all I need to do for the foreseeable future is listen to the music……..and maybe mod a bit :eyebrows:

Having dragged my speakers etc over to my mates a while ago who has a listening room properly set up and made out of bricks an stuff it dawned on me that I’m really flogging a dead horse trying to squeeze much more out of my kit while I live where I do.
My next major upgrade after my final Dac choice would need to be a listening room and that isn’t very likely :(

[michaelhigh]

I’m finally going to get to listen to a Wyred4Sound Dac2.
I’m really hoping this does the business and all I need to do for the foreseeable future is listen to the music……..and maybe mod a bit :eyebrows:

Having dragged my speakers etc over to my mates a while ago who has a listening room properly set up and made out of bricks an stuff it dawned on me that I’m really flogging a dead horse trying to squeeze much more out of my kit while I live where I do.
My next major upgrade after my final Dac choice would need to be a listening room and that isn’t very likely :(

Mod the roon, John, it couldn't be that hard. Your journey has lead you almost all the way to a perfectly-thought-out and implemented setup. Somehow or other find the way to improve your room and make all your sweat equity/legwork/research/networking totally worth the obvious hassle. I'm ready to see you report back here in a month or so (however long it takes) that your room rocks and every bit of effort you've seen to has paid off in spades. Good Luck.:)