View Full Version : First steps in Vinyl...maybe !
Good morning all,
Been toiling with the idea of plunging into the world of vinyl. What's stopped me so far is have a single record !
Been looking at the Rega RP1, the new model. Well priced at £225 and I would buy some records, maybe a few classic records and modern. My birthday next month so was thinking of taking the plunge !
Has anyone listened to the new Rega RP1 ? Heard much about it ?
Not sure i want to go down the route of stream players.
My Dad has has taken the plunge in the Linn stream player. Yet to hear it but can't help but feeling, where's the romance in it ? The album sleeves, sleeve notes etc. Plus i'm hoping the beatles remasters will be on vinyl as well (Have both the stereo and mono box sets already) and excited by having the big sleeves and art work !
What can i expect from vinyl ? Hoping to hear the warmth over CD's. (Not that i'm unhappy at all with CD's.).
Thanks,
hifi_dave
16-08-2010, 09:03
Yes, I've heard the new RP1 and it is an exceptionally good TT inc cartridge for the money. It's quite different to the previous P1, notable changes are the platter and a new easy to set up arm.
chris@panteg
16-08-2010, 09:32
I say take the plunge ' looks to be cracking value for money .
http://www.rega.co.uk/html/RP1.htm
What you can expect is a much more fluid and natural sound ! than your average CD spinner , with a more engaging quality to the music , go for it.
Start looking for some good 2nd hand vinyl as well as any new stuff , still plenty to be had at bargain prices ' just takes a bit of effort and rummaging .
let us know how you get on:)
Thanks for replying. HiFix will sell me and RP1 and mini phono box for £250. Can't really go wrong with that.
Where do you buy your records from ?
I'd suggest getting along to your nearest Rega dealer (Audio-T in Portsmouth? Make sure they have one on demo before travelling, obviously!) and having a listen before making too many plans - if you've not had much experience with vinyl I would say that you need to hear how different it potentially is to digital - especially as you are used to Audiolab kit which is in my experience quite clinical (in a good way) - (don't forget you will also need to budget for a phono stage as your 8000S is line level only, unless you already have something?) [EDIT - just noticed your post above re. Phono Box.]
I would suggest if possible you get hold of a vinyl album of something you already have on CD so you can easily notice any differences, as just relying on the dealer's vinyl selection may confuse matters if you are not already familiar with the recording.
Vinyl isn't for everyone, and even with brand new/clean LPs you will still get some crackles and pops sometimes, which to many of us old fogies is part of the charm and nostalgia, but you may find if you are used to the cleanliness of CD that it gets on your nerves... as might getting up to change the record over, particularly if you buy lots of 2/3 disc vinyl that seems to be common with new releases and only have one or two tracks per side.
On the other hand, you might love the interaction, the huge sleeve art and notes, and of course the sound, which isn't necessarily going to be "warmer" than CD, but will most likely be different to what you are used to.
(I'd go for a white one with a purple mat, but that's just me!)
Thanks Alex, you raise some good points. My Dad has a Rega P3/24 so might be worth having a closer listen to his.
My other alternative is to go along the "stream" systems, but Vinyl seems to be a bit more magical :).
I've re-wired my speaker cables to either mono-block at the moment as opposed to the tweeters being driven by the 8000s. Just wanted to try in. Does give a very full and clean sound.
chris@panteg
16-08-2010, 10:42
Thanks for replying. HiFix will sell me and RP1 and mini phono box for £250. Can't really go wrong with that.
Where do you buy your records from ?
Hi Graham
For 2nd hand , various charity shops ' though be careful they can be overpriced, always examine carefully , be on the lookout for record fairs .
Diverse Vinyl for buying online ' also Amazon is ok ' i have bought quite a bit of new 180gm reissues from HMV online with free postage ' not bad .
Vinyl is very expensive new !
My Dad said 2nd hand vinyl would sound very crackly.
Alex, no need to listen to any *new* Rega. They're utterly consistent and you know EXACTLY what you're getting every time!
Rega announced their new models online far too soon and left some dealers with stock to shift in a very quiet time of year. The RP1 still isn't available yet, but the deal with the Fono Mini is a good one. I'd still check ALL of the turtable upon receipt though, as we ALWAYS set up and checked EVERY deck we sold (Dual, Pro-Ject, Rega or Linn, it made no difference), fitting cartridges, checking nuts for tightness and, last century, Rega motor alignment, which should be spot-on now the motors are fixed in place. Now Rega are supplying fitted cartridges as an option to most of the range, some lazy incompetent dealers are just handing over the sealed, stapled boxes over the counter to unsuspecting clients.
Put it this way, the RP1 is regarded as being so good that it's unlikely the Planar 2 will be resurrected any time soon.
The Fono Mini is highly regarded too by those that know it, although it's beneath "our" radar here. If funds permit, I shall have one soon as a spare to replace the aborted AT PEQ3 project (which Hamish successfully completed :)).
One final thing for ALL Rega owners to consider please, and that's their wall support. Rega's, being light but rigid decks, do seem to be sensitive to what they're placed on. The wall support always gave the best performance (on bass instruments especially) from these decks and can easily be configured for other purposes later on...
Hello Graham.
If your intention is to dabble a bit the above suggestion are fine.
On the other hand, if you want to make vinyl your prime music replay system there may be better ways of going about it.
There are a lot of excellent second hand record decks for sale on ebay for example.
It’s a bit more of a gamble than buying new but in general good quality record decks are likely to have had careful owners.
I’ve seen some great bargains with decks like Dunlop System Deck, Gyrodecks and even the odd Thorens TD series; all of which, I think, will give as good a sound if not better than Rega.
However, many don’t come with tone arms and this does add complication. A bit of research helps a lot here.
I sold my vinyl collection a few months ago. A great many of my albums were snapped up by friends but the remaining few hundred I sold in a couple of batches to collectors who advertised their interest in buying second hand vinyl.
An advert in a couple of local papers may be a better way to purchase bulk vinyl particularly given a great number of people are heading in the opposite direction with their music replay systems.
You can buy a lot of vinyl for £100. Expect to pay £1.50 to £2 pounds for more common titles in excellent condition. The vast majority of records are not worth very much fortunately (for you) even in near mint condition second hand.
Just a thought. Good luck
Mr Welder sir, the decks you mention all have great potential, the Thorens TD160 selling for around £120 or less and indeed, the AR legend and EB101 could be added to the list (let alone the Mantra and cast-chassis version Heybrook TT2), but they're ALL suspended designs, which really do need some skill to get really good. Regas were almost always better than standard model TD160's, no matter what the 160's were fitted with (strange but true in my personal experience) and for a first dabble, a properly sited RP1 will eat them alive unless the best examples you mention (Gyro or Systemdek) are VERY carefully set up. The suspension on my TD125 didn't look to have ever been messed with, yet it shimmied all over the place and I'm convinced it sounds better now it bounces piston-like as it should..
Mr DSJR Sir.
I’ll see your Rega with any tone arm and raise you my modded Gyro (ex, sob) ;)
Actaully Gbeer7 DSJR does have a very good point so maybe ignore my comments concerning second hand options and go with the simple but non the less very capable Rega recommendations.
The vinyl buying suggestions though are still worth considering.
Absolutely, but see the other post regarding LP or streaming. There's a baby on its way at Christmas................................... :)
I'd suggest getting along to your nearest Rega dealer (Audio-T in Portsmouth?
Personally, if Graham's considering the Rega, I'd give the business to hi-fi dave (a Rega dealer), as he's one of the good guys, offers exemplary service and is never pushy :)
And no, I'm not on commission, but credit where credit's due!
Marco.
Personally, if Graham's considering the Rega, I'd give the business to hi-fi dave, as he's one of the good guys, offers exemplary service and is never pushy :)
And no, I'm not on commission, but credit where credit's due!
Marco.
I don't disagree, (and in fact checked the distances - an extra 200 miles on the round-trip to Saffron Walden) - but as I was suggesting Graham has a listen and I would never then suggest buying from somewhere else... I'm old fashioned like that! ;)
I agree, Alex, but perhaps Dave would offer a 30-day money back guarantee on any purchase?
That way Graham can hear the Rega in his own system and doesn't have to travel anywhere! ;)
Marco.
Haselsh1
16-08-2010, 14:14
I have to reinforce what has been said about HiFiDave. It was fantastic to deal with this guy.
Regarding vinyl, please be aware that you must make allowances for old technology. If you will not or cannot do this, don't go the vinyl route. Brand new vinyl crackles and pops and clicks. Live with it or don't.
The benefits of vinyl are astounding but also infuriating. This is why I use CD as a backup to vinyl. Vinyl is for when I have the rose tinted specs on. CD is for when I want my music to be convenient. If music is purely about convenience to you do not go the vinyl route, stick with CD. If music is your passion and your life, I think vinyl will do very nicely.
Hi Shaun,
Brand new vinyl crackles and pops and clicks...
Yes, it can do until you put it though a professional record cleaner and then pop it into a Nagaoka anti-static sleeve - and also make sure that your stylus is scrupulously clean and in immaculate condition.
I realise that a professional record cleaner is probably not on the agenda for Graham at this early stage of his vinyl journey, but the pops and clicks are most certainly preventable :)
Marco.
Spectral Morn
16-08-2010, 16:37
Can I suggest as no one else has, that you should also consider a Technics 1200 (silver) or 1210 (black) S/H. You should be able to get one for around £250 ish and even with the stock arm and an Ortofon MM cart, I will stick my neck out here and say that I think this will be quite a bit better than any entry level Rega or Project turntable.
If the bug bites, you can then in the future, when funds allow upgrade bits either S/H or new...there is plenty of info here on AOS as to what you can do to a Technics later on.
I will also stick my neck out and say that you can also pick up quite a few S/H options on phono stages which will be quite a bit better than the Rega basic phono stage.
If you want to buy new then a Rega or Project are fine at their respective price points, though as Dave (DSJR) says a wall shelf is mandatory for getting the best sound out of a Rega turntable, in fact any TT will benefit from wall mounting; as long as the wall is a solid one.
Regards D S D L
Can I suggest as no one else has, that you should also consider a Technics 1200 (silver) or 1210 (black) S/H. You should be able to get one for around £250 ish and even with the stock arm and an Ortofon MM cart, I will stick my neck out here and say that I think this will be quite a bit better than any entry level Rega or Project turntable.
Lol - I didn't want to say since Graham seemed pretty set on the Rega......
Glad you're now beginning to realise for yourself what I've been saying on this subject for years ;)
Marco.
Spectral Morn
16-08-2010, 17:27
Lol - I didn't want to say since Graham seemed pretty set on the Rega......
Glad you're now beginning to realise for yourself what I've been saying on this subject for years ;)
Marco.
Indeed :)
Proof of the pudding is always in the tasting though.....
Regards D S D L
Defo! But it's always nice when one's ramblings are substantiated by someone else's ears :)
Marco.
Thanks for all yor help guys. I'm in two minds :rolleyes:
The RP1 is being damned with faint praise before anyone outside of the dealer network has even heard one :(
The Techie is a very ordinary deck AS SUPPLIED and Graham will very soon have to shell out hundreds of quid he may not have on lifting it to a higher standard - all this with only one single to his name..... If he's happy with that approach, then fine, but a few here have possibly no idea how bloomin' EXPENSIVE kids are, right from screaming, cr@ppy birth to having to bail 'em out in early to mid adult-hood (been there with my late parents and am going through the high-school transition with uniforms etc with our son now ;)).
With no prior experience of vinyl reproduction, a UK made Rega from HiFi Dave would be perfect. Dave is an old mate of mine and I'm glad someone else has mentioned him first :ner:
Spectral Morn
16-08-2010, 19:38
The RP1 is being damned with faint praise before anyone outside of the dealer network has even heard one :(
The Techie is a very ordinary deck AS SUPPLIED and Graham will very soon have to shell out hundreds of quid he may not have on lifting it to a higher standard - all this with only one single to his name..... If he's happy with that approach, then fine, but a few here have possibly no idea how bloomin' EXPENSIVE kids are, right from screaming, cr@ppy birth to having to bail 'em out in early to mid adult-hood (been there with my late parents and am going through the high-school transition with uniforms etc with our son now ;)).
With no prior experience of vinyl reproduction, a UK made Rega from HiFi Dave would be perfect. Dave is an old mate of mine and I'm glad someone else has mentioned him first :ner:
Sorry Dave but you are now damning the Technics.
Imho this deck for very little money (if bought S/H) out performs many of the entry level turntables on the market and I have heard and sold many over the years. I know nothing about the new Rega deck, my comment was based on previous entry level Rega decks.
It is true that if you want to take the Technics to a different level you will have to spend money and serious money. However that sound quality level is well above entry level. It has been suggested on AOS by many that a fully tweaked 1200/1210 will take on and in many cases destroy the high-end TTs out there, not something I can as of yet confirm or deny but in the context of what the original poster asked a standard 1200 or 1210 depending on which colour he likes and I would suggest going for/looking out for a mk5 not a mk2 (its my understanding that they are better than mk2s) will offer much more than any entry level TT I have heard to date. If he is happy to buy S/H and it is based on a S/H price point that I am coming from.
The 1200 mk5 I have has seriously amazed me at how just good it is with no real tweaking, just replacing the Technics slip mat with an Originlive mat (so far that is all I have done).
To get a Rega sounding its best (assuming this new deck suffers from acoustic feedback issues as all older Rega entry level decks did Plannar 2 and 3) one has to stick it on a wall-shelf of some sort so automatically he will have to spend at least £150 unless he can get a S/H Target wall-shelf
And just to be clear, Marco has not taken me into his wee room beyond the white door and implanted a Technics chip in my head :lol: My enthusiasm is based on what I have been listening to the last few days. Its not perfect but it is damn good for very little outlay imho.
Regards D S D L
Rega's haven't easily fed back since the RB tonearms were fist fitted in 1983 I found. They're UK made as well and hifi dave tells me the RP1 is a very different animal to the P2, let alone the "old" P1 it officially replaces.
Up to the OP now. I can't say any more.
Spectral Morn
16-08-2010, 20:25
Rega's haven't easily fed back since the RB tonearms were fist fitted in 1983 I found. They're UK made as well and hifi dave tells me the RP1 is a very different animal to the P2, let alone the "old" P1 it officially replaces.
Up to the OP now. I can't say any more.
Then in post 9 why say this Dave....
One final thing for ALL Rega owners to consider please, and that's their wall support. Rega's, being light but rigid decks, do seem to be sensitive to what they're placed on. The wall support always gave the best performance (on bass instruments especially) from these decks and can easily be configured for other purposes later on...
I have heard more recent Rega plannar 2 and 3s and they benefited a lot from being wall mounted rather than on a HiFi table and the table used was on a solid floor not a suspended one. Though as I said earlier virtually all turntables will benefit to a greater or lesser amount by being wall mounted.
Regards D S D L
Granny sucking eggs here, but my thoughts regarding Rega wall supports are meant as much for those lurking who don't know...
There are various forms of "feedback" I've found. The obvious one is the old-fashioned "howl-round" where a ghastly noise comes from the speakers if the volume is turned up too far. The R200 tonearm equipped Planars were rather sensitive to this, although this didn't prevent the decks sounding incredibly "involving" to listen to.
Other forms of feedback are rather more insidious I feel and it's these that can affect the way the stylus reads the information in the groove. Subtle reverb/ambience clues mean the tiniest stylus movements and noise in the turntable (many idler models?) and general small vibrations in the turntable structure can modify reproduction of such information, hence the messing around with mats, armboard materials etc.
I wasn't going to continue with this as the Techie Army here seem to hammer any genuine UK manufactured alternative suggestion with a proper dealer network offering set-up and support [edit - smilie - :lol:], but I do know people who HAVE compared the standard Technics article to the likes of Regas and found the *standard article* wanting by comparison. The RP1 utilises a new plinth AND platter material and the audible results of this, together with the tonearm (probably the most profitable part judging on past conversations), would have been listened to extensively. OK, the RP1 may not be taken any further, but I still think a wall mounted one would be fine for someone investigating vinyl for the first time, with little interest for now in "upgrading" and with a baby on the way, who'll turn into a lovable nightmare VERY quickly :lol:
Hi Dave,
Good post, apart from this:
I wasn't going to continue with this as the Techie Army here seem to hammer any genuine UK manufactured alternative suggestion with a proper dealer network offering set-up and support...
That's hardly fair, and nor even is it an accurate account of the situation... I didn't mention the Techie until Neil did - in fact, what was my recommendation, including the dealer to buy it from until then?
Neil is also hardly part of "the Techie army", given that he's only just bought one himself after spending plenty of time here as sceptic. Or is he not allowed to express his valid opinion, which is now based on practical experience??
Chris, another Techie owner, also sided with the Rega recommendation, so please get your facts right in future before making such comments. We get accused of enough of that bollocks elsewhere without getting it from one of our regulars here, ta!
I happen to think that the Rega option is a very valid one for Graham for the reasons you've given, if perhaps not being the choice that offers the best out-and-out audio performance, which is solely what Neil's argument was based on.
Marco.
chris@panteg
17-08-2010, 09:39
All this may be putting Graham off ! in his 1st post he was very keen on the RP1 and i think he should just go with his instincts , its not about which type of deck ' its about a guy getting into vinyl for the 1st time .
The baby Rega would be an excellent 1st deck and we should encourage Graham to get in touch with HiFi Dave ' yes ? .
Hi Dave,
Good post, apart from this:
That's hardly fair, and nor even is it an accurate account of the situation... I didn't mention the Techie until Neil did - in fact, what was my recommendation, including the dealer to buy it from until then?
Neil is also hardly part of "the Techie army", given that he's only just bought one himself after spending plenty of time here as sceptic. Or is he not allowed to express his valid opinion, which is now based on practical experience??
Chris, another Techie owner, also sided with the Rega recommendation, so please get your facts right in future before making such comments. We get accused of enough of that bollocks elsewhere without getting it from one of our regulars here, ta!
I happen to think that the Rega option is a very valid one for Graham for the reasons you've given, if perhaps not being the choice that offers the best out-and-out audio performance, which is solely what Neil's argument was based on.
Marco.
Smilie added to my previous post - please don't take me so seriously :)
How do we know that the RP1 won't offer the "best out-and-out audio performance" for his money. neither of us have heard one yet. I DO know Rega though, from decades of selling and setting them up, along with numerous factory visits, so can genuinely speak from experience.
Chris, you're quite right. I hope GBEER has enough experience here by now to understand where and what we're about, especially Marco and me :D (we're pussy-cats really :surf:)
Dave, no worries, but that's why I said PERHAPS before the bit you've highlighted ;)
Marco.
Spectral Morn
17-08-2010, 10:02
An other option is this from Project with a very good MM cart fitted at the price. A tad more than the Rega but imho Project make some excellent TTs for the entry level market.....
A Project Debut Esprit £325 (comes with Ortofon 2m Red MM cart) or a standard Debut at £220 with Ortofon OM5e MM cart.
Imho the Rega arm is better than the Project arm but the Project motor unit (at least in regards to older Regas is better, again imho) and I have done the comparison. So my experience indicates that performance levels between the two options evens out (with the Project coming out a tad ahead) and Projects don't need to be mounted on specialist wall-shelves...though like most TTs doing so will push their performance up, though not as much as it does with older Rega TTs. Please note I said older Regas as I have not heard or seen this new Rega deck.
The best thing about older Rega TTs were the arms RB250 or RB300 (I really don't like the new mounting on Rega arms now it feels more flimsy) One advantage of going for a new Rega would be that you can dump the motor unit in the future and transplant the arm to a better motor unit from another TT manufacturer.
http://www.henleydesigns.co.uk/product.asp?shop=0&ProductID=622
http://www.henleydesigns.co.uk/assets/_managed/products/images/DebutEsprit-Piano.jpg
Regards D S D L
chris@panteg
17-08-2010, 10:11
Nice looking deck ' Neil , i was looking at the Projects a few years back , but went for the Techie of course .
The acrylic platter should give a nice light airy balance ' be interesting to hear it alongside the RP1 .
Spectral Morn
17-08-2010, 10:18
Nice looking deck ' Neil , i was looking at the Projects a few years back , but went for the Techie of course .
The acrylic platter should give a nice light airy balance ' be interesting to hear it alongside the RP1 .
That is certainly what Gbeer should do get a demo of both and then make his mind up.
I include it as a suggestion, to offer balance and as a very worthwhile alternative.
The 2m series of MM carts that Ortofon make are very good and the 2M red cart is quite a lot better than what most companies would offer to go along with a TT as standard. The 2M Red retails on its own for £80
Regards D S D L
In my final year in the industry (:(), our boss fell out with the then new Rega rep (not the current one) and we lost the agency (long and very sad story). We took Pro-Ject and if anything, this brand was easier to sell because it was better known to a wider range of people.
In recent years, Pro-Ject have sadly increased their prices and the deck referred to by Neil should be a "1.8" rather than yet another "Debut" model IMO ;) it looks good though and the arms will happily take most mm cartridges with no difficulty. The Ortofons supplied are pretty good I think.
Poor OP, he's getting deluged with sound advice here.
Spectral Morn
17-08-2010, 10:39
In my final year in the industry (;(), our boss fell out with the then new Rega rep (not the current one) and we lost the agency (long and very sad story). We took Pro-Ject and if anything, this brand was easier to sell because it was better known to a wider range of people.
In recent years, Pro-Ject have sadly increased their prices and the deck referred to by Neil should be a "1.8" rather than yet another "Debut" model IMO ;) it looks good though and the arms will happily take most mm cartridges with no difficulty. The Ortofons supplied are pretty good I think.
Poor OP, he's getting deluged with sound advice here.
While it is very true that Project prices have gone up over the years, the thing I like about them, is that they have over that time improved styling finish and added new improving elements to their designs with a more modest approach to doing that than some in the industry. The end result has been choice and excellent sound per pound levels. Project have also made many very expensive high-end design ideas affordable, such as Carbon fibre arms.
I think we are well past 1.8s now Dave maybe a 3 (model numbers for those who are :scratch: their heads in confusion)
Regards D S D L
chris@panteg
17-08-2010, 10:50
I think also ' Graham was concerned about the price of new vinyl , but 2nd hand is probably where to start ' and at car boots sometimes you can find decent vinyl very cheap and in bulk .
Why not buy BRITISH??????????? :)
We have several turntable manufacturers covering all price points and most of 'em are very good indeed. No need to look to eastern europe or Japan tbh. Just a thought, but we are losing most of our UK amplifier manufacturers to far-eastern owned concerns (or at least the far-easterners have majority shareholdings now) and we lost most of our speaker makers to China and surrounding regions decades ago..
Spectral Morn
17-08-2010, 12:20
Why not buy BRITISH??????????? :)
We have several turntable manufacturers covering all price points and most of 'em are very good indeed. No need to look to eastern europe or Japan tbh. Just a thought, but we are losing most of our UK amplifier manufacturers to far-eastern owned concerns (or at least the far-easterners have majority shareholdings now) and we lost most of our speaker makers to China and surrounding regions decades ago..
I think buying within your nations products is laudable but only if the sound quality and facilities match your personal and system needs as well as any sense of national pride etc.
Regards D S D L
Dave,
It's of course nice to buy British when you can, and you make a valid point.
Personally, however, I don't really care where the gear I own is made as long as it sounds superb (the best to my ears within my budget), is built well, and reliable.
*The* most important consideration for me though will always be sound quality, so if something non-British to my ears sonically outperforms its British counterpart, then that's what I'll buy.
I don't own a modded Techie because I love buying Jap gear, or that I even particularly like its looks, but bloody hell does it sound good and outperform many T/Ts far more expensive than it costs (even when modded)... And *that* is the bottom line!
Marco.
Start looking for some good 2nd hand vinyl as well as any new stuff , still plenty to be had at bargain prices ' just takes a bit of effort and rummaging.
I missed this earlier Chris, and would just urge some slight caution with buying used vinyl "sight unseen" - not that you have suggested doing so - but the temptation is possibly to buy second-hand records from ebay, discogs etc. - I must say that I won't any more, having been disappointed on several occasions with the over-ambitious gradings given by sellers - I will only ever buy new/sealed vinyl by mail order now.
A good rummage as Chris suggests though, is where the bargains can be had but even in charity shops/car boot sales I would still suggest to any new vinyl addict to visually check both sides of the record very carefully and walk away from anything that looks scratched, scuffed or mucky (unless you're investing in a Record Cleaning Machine for the latter) as nothing will put you off quicker with the format than if every record you play snaps crackles and pops like a bowl of Rice Crispies, never mind the damage you could be doing to your nice new stylus...
This is making me think about getting my old Planar 2 down from the loft. I have about 30 lp's, and 100 or so 12" and 7" singles. Saying that though, my 8000S doesn't have a phono stage.
I have no idea what arm and cartridge are fitted to the deck. I would assume whatever was stock issue at the time; a RB200 and a Bias? I think the belt would probably need replacing.
This is making me think about getting my old Planar 2 down from the loft. I have about 30 lp's, and 100 or so 12" and 7" singles. Saying that though, my 8000S doesn't have a phono stage.
I have no idea what arm and cartridge are fitted to the deck. I would assume whatever was stock issue at the time; a RB200 and a Bias? I think the belt would probably need replacing.
Dave DSJR or Dave hifi_Dave are probably the best Daves for advice on the Rega, Lee, but you might as well replace the belt about £12 for an original, I think, though ebay shows lots at £4.99 for two. That said, if it works as is, give it a go and see how you get on. Haven't you got an 8000A in the loft too? (or is my memory worse than I thought?) Set the Rega to the phono input on that, then connect the tape out from the 8000A to the Aux (or a spare tape/video in) on the 8000S, and Bob's your Uncle, a free phono stage to let you see how it sounds, and if you'd like to pursue your rekindling any further...
How old is the Planar 2 - post '83 it would be a RB200, I believe. Don't know about the cart though.
Sharp Alex. Sharp. I do indeed have the 8000A, so yes, I could do that ;)
I bought it in the mid to late 90's I think, 2nd hand but not very old at the time. Don't Rega sell upgrade kits for these? New motors or something... Is that worth pursuing?
Heck, I may as well just dig it out...when I get time that is.
Vinyl is very expensive new !
My Dad said 2nd hand vinyl would sound very crackly.
A/ Is it - I don't think so.
B/ He's wrong - I've got a lot of second hand records and most are no noisier than brand new ones (none are 'crackly')
I would much rather have a Naim Nait than an Audiolab 8000A (but second hand prices of Nait's have gone crazy) - I would also rather have a Mission Cyrus II or Onix OA21.
(I would recommend a second hand Rega 3)
The Nait's phono stage is severaly band-limited (mainly bass rolloff) but does sound nice with less exalted cartridges and turntables. if the 8000A is a black-cased one, it won't be bad at all, but older ones could be a little plain-jane sounding.
I do think that original UK built Audiolabs could respond to modern re-capping and they did get better as production went on - IMO...
A Rega that's been stored for ages will need fettling, a general tighten up plus the motor and bearing re-lubricating (EP80 in the main bearing and lighter oil on the motor bearings). The motor upgrade was a bit expensive at £100, but there may be some bargains out there if you look around (HiFi Trading Station may still have Listen Inn's old stock although it's some years since the Listen Inn business was wound up).
If you have the stuff already, give it a go and see if you can have some fun with it. Cartridges? I'd suggest an AT120E, Stanton 681EEE mk3 (or Pickering alternative), Denon DL110 in preference to boring dull Grado's (especially with the Audiolab) and over-priced Goldrings. The Ortofon OM-Red is well priced and may be the best option.
I have the older, grey, 8000a.
Thanks for the other tips. Did I read somewhere that you can by a dedicated phono stage by Audio Technica, as well as the Mini Fono by Rega? Are these decent alternatives to the 8000a's phono stage, bearing in mind that I'm not about to start throwing money at this, but for a little future upgrade maybe....
Cheers
flapland
20-08-2010, 12:10
Hi Webby
I have used a Fono Mini with good results fed by a AT440Mla on a Orbe.
I could even let you have it for £25 with postage or £22 collected if you want.
Flapland
Hi Webby
I have used a Fono Mini with good results fed by a AT440Mla on a Orbe.
I could even let you have it for £25 with postage or £22 collected if you want.
Flapland
That's less than trade price, so count me in please if Webby doesn't bite your hand off?
Does the Fono just plug into a line in on the 8000S?
Edit: Scratch that, it does.
Hi Webby
I have used a Fono Mini with good results fed by a AT440Mla on a Orbe.
I could even let you have it for £25 with postage or £22 collected if you want.
Flapland
Assuming it's in good condition, I'll take you up on that offer. Looks like a nice bit of kit. PM me.
Also, I'd like to thank Dave R for not snapping it up from under me.
Cheers
flapland
20-08-2010, 12:40
Lee you have PM.
Paul
Glad to hopefully be of service :)
Lee you have PM.
Paul
I don't. Better check that Paul.
Cheers
flapland
20-08-2010, 12:52
Lee 2nd attempt sent !
Paul
The Nait's phono stage is severaly band-limited (mainly bass rolloff) but does sound nice with less exalted cartridges and turntables. if the 8000A is a black-cased one, it won't be bad at all, but older ones could be a little plain-jane sounding.
I do think that original UK built Audiolabs could respond to modern re-capping and they did get better as production went on - IMO...
Well, band limited or not, it gave good results in my experience - bass roll-off not really being an issue with the kind of speakers it was usually matched with (and no doubt helped it make the most of what wattage it had).
I don't think I've ever heard a black cased Audiolab - just the grey ones (which describes it pretty well). I have heard the later Tag McLaren separates and am equally underwhelmed by them.
I used to be underwhelmed by the grey Audiolabs, but we were using Linn K20 speaker cables at the time.. By the time we took the agency on (once we'd become independant from the sinking ship that was the London shop) they'd become black. Using Chord Rumour and Odyssey, or Naim A5, I thought all of them much better and we sold plenty of this brand for a while. They were utterly reliable too.
When I experienced a disastrous Naim factory tour-indoctrination back in 1985, the only amps of that CB generation I could have lived with (using vinyl) was the Nait and 135's, which sounded very similar, the 135's expanding everything out. The 140 and 250 at that time, sounded harsh and very strained to me.
The little Nait mk1 reminds me of a Rogers Cadet valve amp, soft-clipping so gracefully you can actually get a pretty impressive sound out of Isobariks with one - and that's no mean feat. TBH, the prices these are fetching now are a bit silly, but if you buy one, you won't lose anything flogging it on.
Yes indeed, the prices that Mk1 and 2 Naits are fetching are remarkable.
In my experience, even the grey Audiolabs were very nicely made and entirely reliable - well thought out facilities and decently powered. In fact they were an excellent piece of equipment except for the fact that I didn't like the sound that much (even then, they didn't sound outright poor, just a bit disappointing in direct comparison).
I only visited the Naim factory a couple of times and didn't experience any indoctrination - I guess I was lucky.
Well, here's my Rega Planar 2 (a little dark right now to take good pics but what the heck).
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_J7HU2sJiE_Y/THQd_bgOaHI/AAAAAAAAATk/ZHbeB3SpPbY/s800/DSC04430.JPG
You can just spot the Fono Mini through the back.
I thought I'd have to set it up again and moved the balance weight. I should've left it alone cos now I can't find out what tracking force the Bias cartridge (I assume) requires.
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_J7HU2sJiE_Y/THQd932AOgI/AAAAAAAAATg/JCfupBU4lNM/s800/DSC04427.JPG
Also, what arm would that be?
Anyone know?
Looks like an RB250 I think. http://www.vinylengine.com/a-guide-rega-tonearms.shtml (Green blobs)
1.75g for the Bias as far as I can tell (Vinyl Engine doesn't hold that info) - hifi_dave or DSJR Dave are better placed than me to advise though.
hifi_dave
24-08-2010, 21:06
It's an RB250 and the Bias tracks at 1.75 - 1.8 grams.
Thanks guys.
Is that the standard arm for the planar 2? Is it a goodun? I bought it (the whole deck) 2nd hand back in the 90's.
Yes, it would have been the standard arm for the Planar 2, and yes, overall all the Rega arms are good, especially on Rega decks, though of course they can be improved on either by modding or upgrading. (Audio Origami are probably the best people.) Loads of other manufacturers use the RB arms, probably fair to say they are legendary, though they apparently aren't great on the Technics 1200/1210, which is why you won't read masses about them on here, as a lot of our clan here have gone that route. I won't say any more as the 2 Daves will have a wealth more knowledge than me, but your deck/arm should still be a very capable vinyl spinner I suspect, and should give you plenty of fun.
Yes, ..... your deck/arm should still be a very capable vinyl spinner I suspect, and should give you plenty of fun.
Thanks Alex. That's the main thing eh?
Goes without saying! ;) Especially if you've got more Tears for Fears (I dug out The Hurting the other day on vinyl - SO much better than the CD version...) I've been playing loads of my 80's vinyl recently, it just seems so right on a turntable!
Goes without saying! ;) Especially if you've got more Tears for Fears (I dug out The Hurting the other day on vinyl - SO much better than the CD version...) I've been playing loads of my 80's vinyl recently, it just seems so right on a turntable!
I've got all the Seeds of Love 12" Single picture discs. Quite beautiful they are!
I'm by no means ready for this yet, but for bargain basement upgrades, what would be the suggested route for the my Rega? A new cart? Stub and weight? Platter?
Like I say, I'm not ready yet, but doesn't hurt to find out does it?
Edit: I feel like I've rather hijacked Graham's original thread, maybe I should start my own?
From my very limited listening experience so far, and only with headphones, I'm quite shocked!
Comparing the Sowing the Seeds of Love 12" to the ALAC rip of the CD is like, well, it's like laying on the beach and having someone spray a fine mist of water at you (the cd), or the waves washing over you (the 12"). You get wet both ways but in a different way.
On the 12", the mix seemed more expansive to me. The ride cymbals sounded as big as dustbin lids, which they are of course, and I could hear stick against metal clearly. There's some sibilance and surface noise but I expected that.
The CD seemed to be tighter in the mix, and more snappy, but the 12" had warmth.
I wouldn't say I'm happy cos I am definitely not about to ditch cd for vinyl but, for me, it's fun and interesting.
And I haven't even replaced the 20 year old belt yet!!
Album tracks weren't always as good as the 12" mixes, and this is a shame once CD gets involved, sadly, as the CD tends to show how "small" some of these mixes are. Listening to the 12" mixes on CD can be a very enjoyable experience IMO.
Check that Rega over as I've lectured before. The tonearm nut, if loose, will mess the whole thing up - but TAKE CARE TIGHTENING!!! Also, DON'T go mad with the cartridge bolts, as the body gets crushed.. (we had - and I retain - a torque wrench for these).
As for mods, if the motor is the suspended one, try to find the fixed motor upgrade as this sorts the W&F out and the deck runs closer to correct speed - I always found 80's and 90's Planars to run very slightly fast, audibly and measurably.
Album tracks weren't always as good as the 12" mixes, and this is a shame once CD gets involved, sadly, as the CD tends to show how "small" some of these mixes are. Listening to the 12" mixes on CD can be a very enjoyable experience IMO.
Check that Rega over as I've lectured before. The tonearm nut, if loose, will mess the whole thing up - but TAKE CARE TIGHTENING!!! Also, DON'T go mad with the cartridge bolts, as the body gets crushed.. (we had - and I retain - a torque wrench for these).
As for mods, if the motor is the suspended one, try to find the fixed motor upgrade as this sorts the W&F out and the deck runs closer to correct speed - I always found 80's and 90's Planars to run very slightly fast, audibly and measurably.
It's not a 12" mix, it's just a 12" single, but it's the album version, so when I say mix, I just mean the mix of the instruments so to speak :)
I see no reason why the tonearm nut would be lose but I'll check it. I'm sure it's the suspended motor. I know the upgrade kit is around £80. Is it worth that?
Btw, the TT is quite a bit louder too. Is that normal?
Oh and I noticed the speed difference too.
One final thing for ALL Rega owners to consider please, and that's their wall support. Rega's, being light but rigid decks, do seem to be sensitive to what they're placed on. The wall support always gave the best performance (on bass instruments especially) from these decks and can easily be configured for other purposes later on...
I read on another forum (not that I disagree with the above but just to offer another opinion) that the Rega's 'like' being placed on 'light, but sturdy' supports. The poster even recommended the IKEA Lack table, which sells for £5-£8!
Go figure!
flapland
25-08-2010, 18:39
Lee
Sounds like its come to together very well, just wait until you give it a run through your main speakers. Lots of upgrade pottential with the Rega and the arm but first step in my opinion would be a new belt but in white as they look nice and perhaps a coloured felt matt.
Paul
Lee
Sounds like its come to together very well, just wait until you give it a run through your main speakers. Lots of upgrade pottential with the Rega and the arm but first step in my opinion would be a new belt but in white as they look nice and perhaps a coloured felt matt.
Paul
Look nice? I can't see it! LOL
Maybe I'll come back to you for that cart one day.....
hifi_dave
25-08-2010, 18:51
The turntable might sound louder than CD, it depends on the output from the phono stage.
The Rega, as do most turntables, sounds best on a solid wall support or shelf. If this isn't possible, then a solid stand is a good second best but I wouldn't go for a lightweight table.
The 'white belt' is an upgrade at £21. Personally, I would put this money towards the motor upgrade which does improve things quite noticeably.
flapland
25-08-2010, 21:52
Lee
You are so right of course you can't see the belt on the Rega although they do sell a white belt. I have never had a Rega as my 80's desk was a Revolver which did me for 20 years and then apart from a DD JVC was without a desk until I got the Orbe this year.
Cart isn't currently going anywhere so do give me a shout if interested.
Paul
Silly question: When replacing belts, is a belt a belt, or should I only get genuine Rega belts?
Pattern belts aren't always good (memories of too-thick Thorens belts), but ffs the proper Rega ones aren't too silly money to buy.
Regarding "loose" tonearm nuts. If this wasn't checked by the supplying dealer when new, I wouldn't be at all surprised if you could undo it with your fingers by now (I've seen a few in my time). This nut should be firmly tight (but don't overdo it) on a Planar and the sound does improve when it's "right."
Rega cartridges have a slightly higher nominal output than other quality mm's and they're also hum-field sensitive. Make sure the deck is sited well away from mains transformers of any kind. The older Bias has a slightly soggy bass at the best of times and this bass rises in level from 150Hz down to the 20hz limit of test discs. Not a neutral design by any means (I still have an Elys as a basic reference point). I understand the later versions with revised suspension are a bit better, especially the Super-Bias.
A light and rigid support is EXACTLY what their wall-support is - a lightweight tubular frame with just three cups to hold the feet - no "shelf" to store energy and "boom/ring" as the Sound Org wall shelves used to do - the Target wall brackets used to be somewhere in between.
My recommendations are based on twenty five years selling and setting up countless Rega turntables, endless chats with the people there and - and hifi dave continues to sell their products too. Sorry that you feel the need to refer to others when you have long-time experts here to refer to.
Btw, the TT is quite a bit louder too. Is that normal?
Are you sure that you aren't running a moving magnet cartridge into a moving coil input - it's a press button on the back of the amp as I seem to remember, to switch between the two.
Are you sure that you aren't running a moving magnet cartridge into a moving coil input - it's a press button on the back of the amp as I seem to remember, to switch between the two.
The Rega Fono Mini is a MM phono stage, which I'm feeding into a Line input on my 8000S.
Pattern belts aren't always good (memories of too-thick Thorens belts), but ffs the proper Rega ones aren't too silly money to buy.
Oh sorry, I happen to be out of work, so every penny counts.
My recommendations are based on twenty five years selling and setting up countless Rega turntables, endless chats with the people there and - and hifi dave continues to sell their products too. Sorry that you feel the need to refer to others when you have long-time experts here to refer to.
Dave, I am sorry you feel that way, but I can assure you I did not go double checking the info you gave me. This was info (about the support) that I'd read beforehand, and I thought I'd mention it.
As I say, my budget is tight and I'm just trying to have some fun to start with but open myself up to what upgrades may be available. I'm sorry if I've upset you.
Cheers
I've check the nut underneath and it is nice and tight.
I've check the nut underneath and it is nice and tight.
I'm off to check my nut too, I don't think I did when Dave first told me about it!
He's got a bunch of grown men checking their nuts! :lol:
Maybe Dave could get his "Senior Member" title changed to "Official Nut Monitor"? :eyebrows:
I don't mind :lol:
Lee, I'm skint too, not in a contracted full time employment and will be relying on (hopefully) daily phone calls from mid September for any work that comes my way. I've lost too many hours' sleep to worry any more and just hope it all works out, especially if one or two of the full-timers move up into full-time teaching (one was waiting for her Polish teaching certification to come through and another graduate will need a year as a "tutor" before his final teaching qualification comes through).
Rega belts are well under £15 I think. Thorens belts (made in the thousands) are £20 to £30 and I forget how much a Linn belt is, despite its precision grinding).
You may just find that cleaning the belt with alcohol (if you can get some, otherwise use Allsop tape head cleaning fluid or the AT liquid stylus cleaning fluid) and a tissue may be enough. The only time you need to change the belt is if it takes an age to haul the platter up to speed (the plastic motor pulley comes untstuck too sometimes).
Ok, thanks Dave. You mentioned that the Rega's can run a little fast. What can be done about that? Is that related to the belt?
hifi_dave
26-08-2010, 19:21
The 'official' Rega belt is only £12 so, IMO, it's not worth scrabbling around to save a couple of quid on a replica.
Older Rega turntables run ever so slightly fast but it is nothing to lose any sleep over. I've been selling the things since 1973 and, to my knowledge, have only had one over fastidious musician claiming to hear the speed difference. Furthermore, many, many turntables don't run completely true to speed. Just play and enjoy it for another 30 years.
The 'white belt' is an upgrade at £21.
According to an ebay ad for an official upgrade belt "The Rega White Belt is fabricated of un-dyed rubber to ultra-tight tolerances, thereby improving contact with both drive hub and pulley. The very obvious sonic results include improved clarity and focus, better bass reproduction, and — thanks to more accurate speed — music with more realistic pace, rhythm and timing" Wow! Which does beg the question why they dye the rubber black in the first place, and why NOT dying the rubber makes the belt more expensive... :scratch: Still, I'm the sort of guy who would always want the top of the line, and for another £9 I'll probably fall for the hyperbole and get this instead of the £12 standard one... But given I am a cloth ears, I suspect it would be another £9 down the drain...
Ultralyd
27-08-2010, 01:10
I can see people, in this thread, stating the Technics 1200 series as being great quality.
Now I am new here, but please tell me, is this something you share here; collecting Technics gear or how did you come to the conclusion that this Technics TT is great?
Haselsh1
27-08-2010, 08:01
Goes without saying! ;) Especially if you've got more Tears for Fears (I dug out The Hurting the other day on vinyl - SO much better than the CD version...) I've been playing loads of my 80's vinyl recently, it just seems so right on a turntable!
Tears For Fears 'The Hurting', that really takes me back. I also have it on original vinyl and it sounds stunning on my stock SL1210. I have to be honest and say I hated eighties music but just once in a while there comes an album and I just think, Oh wow...! This album is one of them along with 'Quick Step and Sidekick' or whatever it was called by the Thompson Twins. I guess as with all musical ages there was some drivel as well.
Haselsh1
27-08-2010, 08:06
I can see people, in this thread, stating the Technics 1200 series as being great quality.
Now I am new here, but please tell me, is this something you share here; collecting Technics gear or how did you come to the conclusion that this Technics TT is great?
My best ever turntable was a Logic DM101. The SL1210 is equally as good. My second best turntable was an Alphason Sonata. The SL1210 is equally as good. You see we come to the conclusion by experience. We listen and then we decide. Simple.
Yesterday, I noticed some slight distortion to the sound the closer the stylus got to the centre of the record. Did I mess up the tracking?
Make sure your nail - er sorry - stylus :lol: is clean and check the alignment again..
End-of-side distortion is an accepted fact of vinyl reproduction I'm afraid, as is bass distortion in general - a non disputable fact.. The secret is to minimise this as much as possible and so careful cutting of the acetate in the first place, coupled with careful choice of playback cartridge and the turntable "system" as a whole can make this almost inaudible on the best gear.
Forgive me, but are you using a Rega Bias cartridge? If so, a Bias 2 or AT120e would be a good step-up.
Better stylus profiles can dramatically improve the end-of-side situation (the AT Micro-Line stylus is superb at this), but the risk is an "etched" treble that can be uncomfortable with all but the best sorted tweeters, which magnify the superior tracing and dynamics of treble requencies (CD can have the same problem with dome tweeters and crude crossovers) IMO.
Stratmangler
27-08-2010, 13:16
Better stylus profiles can drastically improve the end-of-side situation (the AT Micro-Line stylus is superb at this), but the risk is an "etched" treble that can be uncomfortable with all but the best sorted tweeters, which magnify the superior tracing and dynamics of treble requencies (CD can have the same problem with dome tweeters and crude crossovers) IMO.
Shouldn't that be dramatically ?
Drastically implies the opposite of improve;)
hifi_dave
27-08-2010, 17:39
It could be the overhang setting, a worn stylus, a worn record, bias setting or tarcking weight or all of the above.
Ultralyd
27-08-2010, 20:45
My best ever turntable was a Logic DM101. The SL1210 is equally as good. My second best turntable was an Alphason Sonata. The SL1210 is equally as good. You see we come to the conclusion by experience. We listen and then we decide. Simple.
Sometimes conclusions like that are made on dated or mismatched gear, when being drunk, with LP's you should have tossed or on days where you should have mowed the lawn instead.
I used to have the Technics thingy and I had no hard time upgrading from there.
Hi 'Ultralyd',
Welcome to AOS! :)
Could you please pop into the Welcome area and introduce yourself to our community by supplying your first name, basic geographical location, system details and music tastes, as this is a requirement for all new members joining AOS.
Cheers! :cool:
Marco.
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