Feeding the Tannoys [Archive] - The Art of Sound Forum

GrahamFP

12-10-2021, 09:34

Thank you Macca, for the steer towards a Denon PMA 350. I have ordered one off Ebay it arrives tomorrow. (Wednesday 12/10)

I have a somewhat catholic taste in music, Beethoven is probably, overall, my favourite composer but I like sometimes to be fired up by music with a sturdy message. So I am looking for a set-up as financially economic as possible, to cater for that. Where the current set up with my Tannoy Revolution R3's/Technics amplifier is, I feel, falling short, is in the more complex passages involving brass and percussion as in, for example Shostakovich's 10th symphony and the Black Dyke Band's rendition of "The God Particle" (by Ralph Rudin) I hope it's not the CD itself or CD player (oh dear, here we go again) but things seem to get very 'scrambled' in the louder, brassier, more percussive parts. So I have listened critically to that today and if the Denon amp arrives tomorrow I will listen again. That's the extreme of course but it will be interesting to see what 50 Watts/channel achieves, I am not seeking excessive volume just clarity and 'presence'.

Macca

12-10-2021, 11:07

Hi Graham

I think you'll find the Denon a step up. It's not the ability to go louder but its ability to control the interaction with the speaker that will make the difference.

if it doesn't you can blame me :)

GrahamFP

12-10-2021, 13:32

If it doesn't, I won't blame you, I'll blame the tuner or the CD player - or the wind-up gramophone even! :-)

Many years ago I was into electronics (Air radio fitter in the RAF) I need a refresher course and will try and catch up on the audio side of things. I am trying to get my head around what happens to the back emf from the speaker coils. When I was very young I worked for a spell in a coil winding shop for Associated Rediffusion, I made and tested many coils for their Q factor, I have forgotten more than I currently know. I think!

Macca

12-10-2021, 15:54

You're starting from a better place than I did. I still struggle to understand this stuff but it's worth it since it is important.

The problem is many modern (and by that I mean from mid 1980s on) passive speakers tend to be designed without any regard for how difficult a load they present to the amplifier. They may be efficient and give a lot of volume for 1 watt and that tends to be the only consideration.

Reactive loads draw large amount of current and if the amp can't cope it clips, this can happen at very low volume in some situations. Naturally this has a big effect on sound quality.

This means it's necessary to use a speaker that is a very benign load (rare these days) or an amplifier with a very robust power supply (expensive, always).

regrettably the complex interaction between passive speaker and amplifier is almost always overlooked leading to reviewer comments like 'A fifty watt amplifier will be fine' which is such a gross oversimplification as to be meaningless.

It also at least partly explains the wildly different subjective opinions you see on what is a 'good' amplifier and what is a 'good' loudspeaker.

GrahamFP

15-10-2021, 11:57

The Denon Amp arrived yesterday and, between other jobs, I have tried it out on a couple of very testing pieces, "The God Particle" used as a brass band competition piece with wide and sudden dynamic changes and very complex sounds, which caused me to be disappointed with the Tannoys on the 30 Watt/channel Technics amp, proved no problem on the Denon. The next test was a fine rendition of (allegedly) Albinoni's Adagio. This was part of the celebration of a overhauled church organ, so the organ was being auditioned too! This piece demonstrated this combo's ability to reproduce the organ pedal-notes and even my 'not easily impressed' wife said; "That's better." There are other 'tests' I want to try but looking very good so far, a definite improvement in capability. My next question...I understand (well, I am told) that film capacitors are more expensive than electrolytics but give better sound. There's a question of 'voicing', I believe. So is it simply a good idea to upgrade electrolytic caps to film as a matter of 'upgrade' or maybe it isn't as simple as that?? I noticed a difference in an R3 announcers voice but wasn't sure what the difference was, maybe a lowering on the treble control?... Or maybe a cap upgrade? :-) One slight problem with the Denon - The Speaker A, Speaker B control. A speakers always on, B speakers as a press button addition. Where the Technics Amp had A and/or B Which is preferable as the speakers are in different rooms. Is a swicth in the A speakers' speaker cable acceptable?

sailor

16-10-2021, 12:50

Hi Graham, yes it's a as simple as that and a good idea to upgrade the electrolytics particularly in the tweeter circuit. Replace them with the exact same value. I looked at a photo of your Tannoys and think I have heard a pair or maybe it was a similar model. Was a long time ago but if I remember I found the highs a little soft but it could have been some other reason.

If you find the same lack of sparkle then I recommend you consider a Mundorf EVO in oil. It has a slight up-tilt that adds definition to cymbals and brushes and opens up the sound. There are dozens of others to choose from. Generally a cleaner better defined sound is heard.

Available from many outlets, here's one:
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/mcap_evo_oil.html

From your time in the RAF I suspect you are comfortable with soldering in new parts and should you wish to upgrade more of the XO you can message me and I would be happy to offer some advice.

GrahamFP

17-10-2021, 14:02

Thank you, very interesting about the Mundford capacitors, I have never heard of them but the write up is interesting indeed and I will definitely get a couple. Fortunately I have slightly more recent experience than the RAF, working in the water industry. (Only about 25 years ago)!
I represented a Norwegian company selling a special type of water level measuring system. Funny enough it was a system built around capacitance. The capacitor consisted of a length of self heating cable, using the earth shield as one side of the capacitor, the teflon covering as the dielectric and the water, rising and falling, as the other side of the capaicor. The varying capicitance was converted to 'level; and displayed or fed to a controller. Handy for deploying in remote areas where the 'element' could be dry for months but immediately in action (withing a suitable tube) when levels rose (rivers and reservoirs) not suited to dirty or salty water. I don't think I will try one in my speaker though!!

Thanks for this interesting steer. PS Had an interesting stereo PM yesterday, Celia's requests: Larry Adler CD, one track "Caravan" being quite amazing, followed by Elgar's Cello Concerto with Jacqueline Dupré.(Vinyl) I can imagine no finer performance, followed by a Peggy Lee CD Her 'Let's Fall in Love is just so charming and funny and finally for a bit of light hearted fun some Fats Waller, a wonderful Stride pianist and very funny. All sounding pretty good - but good can always get better! But I think the law of diminishing returns would apply before long in this field.

Macca

17-10-2021, 15:14

Glad that's all worked out for you there Graham.

sailor

17-10-2021, 18:46

Interesting gauge you described. Perhaps it can be re-calibrated for beer which triggers a vibrator in the wallet when the level is low ��

Once you have installed the new caps please report back with your findings. I think you will be pleased.

sailor

17-10-2021, 19:02

I forgot to supply this link to a rather exhaustive capacitor review.

http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

He marks all his personal favourites with an asterisk. The one I recommend is one of them. Have fun.

GrahamFP

18-10-2021, 15:43

Actually the level gauge was tried out in a gin distillery in Scotland.
Customs and Exise were suspicious of it so no go, but an interesting, intoxicating even, visit!

I will feed back the results.

Yesterday PM we listened to the Finnish composer Rautavara's Cantus Arcticus, which has his music played against a taped cacophony of Arctic birds and yes more clarity in the tweeter area is needed in some of the louder more cacophonous high pitched sections. But the same piece did have exactly what i wanted to hear a clear sharp riff(?) on kettle drums.

GrahamFP

19-10-2021, 09:48

I have been reading up on capacitors from the links given, an education but in simpler times weren't the interleaved radio tuning capacitors a lovely meeting of engineering and electronics? My first investigations into audio was the family wind-up gramophone (I still have one) And when my parents were out, my fascination with the 'pick-up' over came me and I dismantled it (age about 8) My elder sister tried to help me put it back together and save me from the wrath to come but it had to go to the menders! And all that (extracts from La Boheme, in that case) from a wavy groove in a flat disck of breakable plastic (pre-plastic)? And The Great Caruso and Gigli have still their signatures thereon! Now instead of winding a handle to keep the spring under tension we are hand winding capacitors to get a bit nearer to 'the truth' I am wondering if the essence of audiophiles is the common desire for truth? So in reading posts I think it strange that instead of asking why someone he/she holds an apparently opposing view to get nearer to any truth, people flounce off in a huff.. Cest la vie. There's a lot of it about. But back to caps I am looking for best cost/benefit pricing; Wow some capacitors cost over £200, I see how systems get so costly. Thank goodness for Ebay where upgraders deposit there stuff for me to pick up, it's like an audio thrift shop! :-)

Macca

19-10-2021, 11:10

Be wary of buying fakes. Use an established supplier. Don't bother with the stupidly priced ones. Some claim a sound quality benefit from them but this is, to date, not backed up by the research.

Firebottle

19-10-2021, 11:54

Some 'over priced' capacitors are very much form over substance, or in other words 'price over performance'.

A lot of the high price is what is commonly know as foo (marketing bollocks basically).
There are different materials that are used in capacitors, for the majority a quality (not expensive) polypropylene dielectric capacitor will be perfect.

Lawrence001

19-10-2021, 13:37

Some wise words there

Pharos

19-10-2021, 20:22

"I am wondering if the essence of audiophiles is the common desire for truth?"

That is in fact my life stance, Hi-Fi being an iconic representation of my aspiration. The removal of 'noise' and irrelevance, confoundment, crosstalk, irrelevance and obfuscation.

In our age there is so much error in thinking, and BS, even from those with serious and sincere intent, and it is spread everywhere because of the web.

With regard to a capitalism economy, BS applies to most available consumables, and in Morrisons we get expensive adjectives on the high end products; I just want the science.

sailor

19-10-2021, 20:50

@ Macca, Firebottle and Lawrance, so what are you guys actually saying?

What kind of research and by whom regarding the sound of different capacitors and what effort have you made to prove your point.

An inexpensive polyprop will be perfect. Oh really. Perfect for who and in what application? This suggests you have never seriously compared a good cap to the mundane.

And wise words. Which of them are wise?

I notice the site founder Marco has issues with members straying too far into the objective stance of measurements and the demand for proof. I read with interest his use of Duelund components in his XO, by no means inexpensive. Are those of us who have the temerity to claim hearing a difference all just delusional? 😵*

I suppose saying that resistors also affect the sound is part of the delusion. I am about to blow 18 bucks a pop on 4 Path Audio resistors, why, because they provide much the same upgrade as the caps. Then there is the internal wire and quality of speaker terminals and, oh never mind.

Macca

20-10-2021, 07:38

@ Macca, Firebottle and Lawrance, so what are you guys actually saying?

What kind of research and by whom regarding the sound of different capacitors and what effort have you made to prove your point.

An inexpensive polyprop will be perfect. Oh really. Perfect for who and in what application? This suggests you have never seriously compared a good cap to the mundane.

And wise words. Which of them are wise?

I notice the site founder Marco has issues with members straying too far into the objective stance of measurements and the demand for proof. I read with interest his use of Duelund components in his XO, by no means inexpensive. Are those of us who have the temerity to claim hearing a difference all just delusional? ��*

I suppose saying that resistors also affect the sound is part of the delusion. I am about to blow 18 bucks a pop on 4 Path Audio resistors, why, because they provide much the same upgrade as the caps. Then there is the internal wire and quality of speaker terminals and, oh never mind.

Don't know about anyone else but I'm saying that there is to date no evidence capacitors can 'sound different.' That doesn't mean they don't but it has never been demonstrated that they do. I have swapped capacitors in crossovers. Obviously if the old one is out of spec then there might well be an audible difference with the fresh one. Using good quality caps is a good idea from longevity/reliability point of view.

Firebottle

20-10-2021, 07:56

@ Macca, Firebottle and Lawrance, so what are you guys actually saying?

What kind of research and by whom regarding the sound of different capacitors and what effort have you made to prove your point.

Myself and many others have swapped capacitors and heard improvements or otherwise. Also to take into account is where in the circuit the particular capacitor is being used as this also makes a difference.

An inexpensive polyprop will be perfect. Oh really. Perfect for who and in what application? This suggests you have never seriously compared a good cap to the mundane.

This was a suggestion made without knowing the quality level of your system or your experience and aural acuity. In run of the mill equipment IME a reasonable quality polypropylene is a good choice. Just fitting expensive capacitors isn't a good approach if the ret of the kit won't support better performance.

And wise words. Which of them are wise?Possibly don't just chuck money at it?

I notice the site founder Marco has issues with members straying too far into the objective stance of measurements and the demand for proof. I read with interest his use of Duelund components in his XO, by no means inexpensive. Are those of us who have the temerity to claim hearing a difference all just delusional? ��*

Certainly no delusions accepted here for those who can hear a difference.

I suppose saying that resistors also affect the sound is part of the delusion. I am about to blow 18 bucks a pop on 4 Path Audio resistors, why, because they provide much the same upgrade as the caps. Then there is the internal wire and quality of speaker terminals and, oh never mind.

Everything but everything makes a difference to the sound when the quality of the kit will show it.

PS Ignore Macca with his 'to date no evidence' as some of the capacitor manufacturers have undertaken and published very detailed research, which I am not going to be arsed to find now.

Marco

20-10-2021, 09:36

I'll contribute to this discussion properly later, however, just to address this:

I notice the site founder Marco has issues with members straying too far into the objective stance of measurements and the demand for proof. I read with interest his use of Duelund components in his XO, by no means inexpensive. Are those of us who have the temerity to claim hearing a difference all just delusional? ��*

Firstly, Charles, no-one has the right to 'demand' anything from anyone else. They may politely request it, but not make demands.

Secondly, regardless of the 'rights' or 'wrongs' of an argument, no-one is qualified to refer to someone as "delusional", simply because what they've stated doesn't appear to 'fit' with current scientific thinking/the laws of physics or whatever, and also because they cannot hear what you're hearing, and therefore judge it conclusively.

If someone hears something that they believe is real, then they're perfectly entitled to say so, and 'prove' nothing, as long as it's not stated as fact. It remains, however, a valid opinion.

AoS is a staunchly 'ears first' subjectivist forum, so credence will always be given to what someone has heard and experienced, even if it isn't scientifically provable. That's how it is here, and members MUST respect that, so rest assured that no-one will be allowed to refer to anyone else or you as 'delusional'.

I suppose saying that resistors also affect the sound is part of the delusion. I am about to blow 18 bucks a pop on 4 Path Audio resistors, why, because they provide much the same upgrade as the caps. Then there is the internal wire and quality of speaker terminals and, oh never mind.

As Alan has just said, in my extensive experience of modifying both equipment and speakers, absolutely everything makes a difference, although sometimes the effect of such is more subtle than others. However, I've yet to hear, for example, ANY 40-year old electrolytic capacitor improve the sound of a vintage speaker more than the best (read as not necessarily the cheapest or most basic;)) modern polypropylene of the same electrical value. The difference is usually huge!

In the case of my own crossover experiments, not just with my Tannoys (which were transformed greatly for the better with some of the upgrades you mention), but other vintage speakers, such as Celestions, when done right, significant sonic improvements can be gained by replacing ageing, long out of spec, capacitors and resistors with the best modern equivalents, not to mention upgrading grossly inferior wiring and connectors from the 50s, 60s or 70s. In this area of audio, with electronic components and connectors, things have moved on massively!

I've had this type of work carried out recently to my original 1969 Celestion Ditton 15s, and the sonic improvements gained were both very significant, easily heard, and real. Therefore, my advice would be to do what YOU think needs doing to your own speakers, in terms of upgrades, and worry not about the naysayers. They'll often just diss things for the sake of it, as it offends their belief system, and speak from a position of near-zero practical experience!

I'm afraid that in audio you won't get very far if your thinking or decision making process is governed solely by what it says in books. The only way you really learn and make progress in this hobby is by trying stuff out, sometimes things that seemingly contradict the supposed 'facts':cool:

Marco.

Marco

20-10-2021, 12:35

As a point of note, and in no particular order, some "overpriced" polypropylene capacitors with which I've had great success in vintage loudspeaker crossover modifications and elsewhere:

https://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/claritycap_mr.html

https://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/jantzen-silvergold-zcap.html

https://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/jupiter_copper_foil_in_wax.html

https://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/mcap_supreme_silver_gold_oil.html

Without exception, to my ears, within the applications in which they were used, and in the context of my system and preferences, all warranted their cost by comfortably sonically outperforming cheaper, 'bog standard' varieties, assessed within the same context.

Marco.

GrahamFP

20-10-2021, 21:20

Some very interesting thoughts around here. Cost/benefit is, out of financial prudence, of concern to me and I was wondering if there is a sort of hierarchy of points to consider when building up or upgrading a system. From performer to the listener's ear there is a very long audio path. To my mind the speaker/drivers are the final determing factor as to how good and true the system is. So I look at speaker crossovers as a vital link, then I was kindly and helpfully steered here to consider a more suitable amp - did that, thank you (and my Technics amp has already sold on Ebay)! Now I am looking at more modern capacitors but where in the hierachy of upgrades are such things as (as mentioned) resistors, speaker cable, CD player/tuner. record player. The whole set up is only as good as the weakest part, so it's pointless, for example, upgrading the table lamp cable (as mentioned somewhere) if the crossover's a mess or the CD player isn't up to the job. I suppose the answer lies in a acquiring an oscilloscope, so one can see what's going on hmmm...

Marco

21-10-2021, 00:37

PS Ignore Macca with his 'to date no evidence' as some of the capacitor manufacturers have undertaken and published very detailed research, which I am not going to be arsed to find now.

Here you go... Clarity Cap, for example, have produced a white paper on such, which makes for interesting reading: http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/download/INFO_ClarityCap_Technical_Report.pdf

The key appears to be in addressing mechanical resonances inside capacitors.

Marco.

Firebottle

21-10-2021, 06:54

Thanks Marco, I though it may have been ClarityCap :thumbsup:

GrahamFP

24-10-2021, 07:19

Gosh I mentioned oscilloscopes and found this: Maybe ths should be a new thread somewhere else? But what an interesting case study?
http://troelsgravesen.dk/MG15-problem.htm As some recommended caps are a bit pricey for me at present I will see what a mid-way cost upgrade does on one speaker first (comparing speakers L v R) and I'll come back with any result.

walpurgis

24-10-2021, 07:54

Some speakers sound best left alone. They don't always benefit from new components. As you've suggested, doing one at a time is a good idea and keep old components in case you feel the need to reinstall them. Also, 'upgrades' affect the resale value as speakers in original condition are the ones most sought after.

GrahamFP

24-10-2021, 08:54

Aha! At least one of my daughters, still has her milk teeth in a small box, I can see I will have a similar trophy box for original speaker components - there's a connection there somehere!

GrahamFP

27-10-2021, 15:56

Results of capacitor upgrade: Well thank you Macca for suggesting the Denon as a first step, that actually cost me nothing as my Techics amplifier sale covered that cost. And then thanks for the advice on, specifically, the tweeter capacitor upgrade (10uF). I would have liked to have got the oil filled ones but a bit pricey at present, so I went for polypropylene film ones. They are oval in shape, so that's novel. I should say that all of the capacitors removed were well within tolerance. I changed the big 5.6 uF too. One cap to go

Testing between upgraded and 'as original' speaker there was some suitable music on Radio three and the upgraded tweeter seemed to be performing better (and more) than the other one but the clincher was between movements when the poor signal in stereo mode hiss was in full song. The difference was very noticeable the non modified tweeter, in comparison sounded as if it had a covid mask on! So I upgraded that one too and listened to the 'God Particle' Brass Band contest piece, The drums had moved fom somewhere distant to where they should be, back of the band but in the room - Hooray! I need to find something with some gentle brush work but I am sure it will be fine. A clear improvement, pun intended. So thank you Macca and all concerned for the helpful suggestions, which have been noted and acted upon. I'll be looking for more guidance I think but pribably not until after Christmas.

sailor

28-10-2021, 18:12

Glad to hear that your efforts have proved worthwhile. There is a fair bit that can be done to most XOs. I looked online for a schematic for your speakers but found nothing so can't make specific recommendations. Also consider resistors which fortunately are not too pricey. If your XO uses the ubiquitous white sandcast resistors they can be replaced with the Mills brand which are readily available and great value. They serve to remove 'grain' and provide a cleaner less fatiguing sound. Upgrading the internal wiring will take things further and allow you to better appreciate the other mods. Perhaps consider just replacing the tweeter wires with 24AWG solid OCC copper wire or better UPOCC.

OCC is a different method of extruding copper, reducing the crystal boundaries found in the conventional method.

The link provides more info and introduces UPOCC :
https://hfc-fs.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/upocc_what_iss_2.pdf

GrahamFP

29-10-2021, 06:00

Thank you Sailor, I will change resistors, the Mills ones look neater as opposed to my revised capacitors where the oval 10uF ones are huge in size compared to the originals! Regarding the wiring. I have currently rather long runs between the amplifier and speakers, about 5 metres. One speaker has quite thick multistrand, speaker cable from, ahem, dare I say? B&Q. My wife, who is pretty tolerant objected to any more of this transatlantic cable running around the lounge, (never mind those HUGE (!) Tannoys, which had to go but now have to stay, so I obliged by getting thinner cable for the other speaker. "So we'll see the difference" I said. No detectable difference between speakers. So, if the run of cable quality is only as good as the weakest part, should I not upgrade the speaker/amplifier cables as well as the internal connections, to make sense of any internal upgrades? We tend to move house reasonably frequently, so I may have to wait for the next house. Our house decisions are partly driven by having a piano but now the stereo system will figure too. I might add that my wife is somewhat wary of me 'meddling' with 'perfectly Ok' items and I have to nudge her a bit with a JCB to move on but she readily says that the speakers are 'clearer' now. Wives are definitely a component part of an audio set up! ;-)

sailor

30-10-2021, 18:42

Yup, audio is easier if you're not in an uphill battle with the wife ��

Speaker cables are part of the whole and going by what I think you have I strongly recommend some decent cables. I do not have experience with a lot of different cables in my system but have over the years heard quite a few. I tried QED then Chord Carnival Silver Screen then Ecosse (can't remember the model but were easy to forget) and some others but then came Duelund which I think great value and there are many rave reviews. This unassuming skinny cable genuinely has something to offer and outclasses the cables mentioned. Price? Well very reasonable considering the performance. You will read reviews where guys replaced cables costing many multiples of the Duelund. The sensitive Tannoys will be fine with 16AWG

https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/duelund-dca16ga-tinned-multistrand-copper-wire-cotton-oil-insulated.html

Can be found a little cheaper if you shop around. Fortunately these cables sound best when used unterminated. Just insert the stripped end and tighten. Any connector will degrade the sound so quite a saving there.

Regarding the resistors: if you replace yours with Mills get the exact same resistance but buy the 12W ones even if the ones being replaced are lower wattage.

What value is the capacitor in series with the tweeter and what make did you buy?

Pharos

30-10-2021, 20:48

I think connectors are mythical because they only vaguely connect because of asperities.

Bare ends can be re-made, but it may be wise to tin together the very ends to prevent strands which may cause a short.

GrahamFP

31-10-2021, 10:44

I didn't realise there was a page 4 on this thread...The tweeter capacitor I replaced was an Elytone (makers of the crossover cct) Electrolytic 10uF 63 V 18x6mm can) the replacement is a jb (Taiwan) 10uF 250v metalized polypropylene in an oval can. Rough dimensions 30x15mm. They're in the speakers right now and I need a decent interval before opening one up to check)! so my guess is not reliable. I have located the resistors, on my to get list, now i will look up the speaker cable, thank you for the providing the benefit of your researches o that subject. So for a smooth transition from amp to drivers the internal cabling should be replaced also with that. Thinking of wives and audio, I am the lowest musical grade person in our household, my wife and all three daughters all have BMus degrees, But I am the only one who is critical of sound reproduction to any degree. Maybe I just need spoon feeding and they don't. it has always puzzled and frustrated me. But now I have started getting serious about upping standards, they are follwing on as - they say - "It's like being at a concert!" I just received the CD "The Best of Malcolm Arnold" Naxos. (A taster for his centenary year) I can't wait to demo the Tannoys to them playing his "Tam O'Shanter". Symphonies 2 and 5 on order!

Macca

31-10-2021, 11:56

The sensitive Tannoys will be fine with 16AWG

As long as it isn't a very long run then I'd agree but I'd still recommend 14AWG or thicker just for peace of mind.

I went complete overkill but then I like the concept of overkill:

https://i.ibb.co/kGL02Dm/cable2.jpg (https://ibb.co/cyWth8Y)

sailor

31-10-2021, 13:32

@Macca, why is peace of mind, or is it piece of mind, important when it's the sound that matters. Have you heard the Duelund 16AWG cables in your system?

sailor

31-10-2021, 14:42

Graham, the Duelund cable would be excellent to run to the other drivers but consider the 24AWG (rather thin) OCC solid core copper I suggested earlier for the tweeters. You will not need much so will not be a huge outlay.

The skinny 24AWG I recommended is from experimenting with many different types of wire on lots of speakers. Two takeaways from this experimenting is to use solid core and it must be thin. I have used 28AWG which I think may be better but it's more difficult to work with.

A cheap or free experiment would be to temporarily hook them up with some cat 5. Separate out a twisted pair and use this to connect the tweeters. They are solid core and 24AWG. This will allow you to hear what it does in your system and then you may decide to keep it or upgrade to OCC.

Here is a link to some good quality wire which is bare and will need insulation to prevent shorts. For that get some pure cotton. : https://www.partsconnexion.com/occ6n-copper-hook-up-wire.html

At $0.48/ft it's a great value upgrade, but postage from USA will change that so find something locally. There is a rectangular wire that I imported from this outlet but although it sounded different I don't know if I would call it better. It's the Neotech Legenburg which you may have free, just pay postage from Ireland.

But first things first, try the cat 5 but not with PVC insulation, ugly. Teflon or polyolefin is much better, and report back.

Macca

31-10-2021, 15:27

@Macca, why is peace of mind, or is it piece of mind, important when it's the sound that matters. Have you heard the Duelund 16AWG cables in your system?

Because I find most speaker cables sound the same and the ones that don't sound 'odd' in some way.

IMO You just need a thick enough cable for the run, and well implemented connections. I like to use very high purity copper cables too although I doubt that matters much if any.

The cable I showed in that pic meets all those criteria and was not cheap although not stupid money either. In truth I do not hear a difference with that and some unbranded 79 strand I also have. But I use the fancy one for peace of mind since I already have it so why not? And it looks to any visiting audiophile like I am taking things seriously.

sailor

31-10-2021, 18:21

@Macca, you are using some good components and your system should respond well to cable changes. If you are listening to no-name cheapo cables then I'm not surprised you don't hear much. Beg, Borrow or Buy some Duelund cable. I'm sure you will hear a big change and a change you will like. The speakers are sensitive enough to use 16AWG and are not crazy expensive. There is no need to buy terminals for them because they sound better without.

Should you not like them then just sell them on but I'm sure you will keep them. Perhaps you know somebody who uses Duelund and would lend them to you to try.

When I changed to them the improvement was immediately heard and it was not subtle. My wife who is very supportive had a big grin on her face. Later that same day she was reduced to tears listening to Filippa Giordano. There is emotion here and although I have reverted to my Harmonic Technology Pro 9 cables at many times the price, the Duelunds are the best value by far.

Macca

01-11-2021, 07:53

GrahamFP

05-11-2021, 09:55

Yes I will change the internal wiring, so at least the most is made of the signals that arrive at the speakers. If I can muster up the diplomacy required to actually get my amplifier etc moved into the same room as the speakers than better speaker cables will be less cost prohibitive. Meanwhile I am now impressed with the set up as is. One of my desires to get the percussion 'in the room' has now largely been met. In Sir Malcolm Arnold's 'Tam O'Shanter' there is an almighty BANG! on a drum (lightning nearby idea) and that's as real and immediate as you can get, thrilling even. But on another Arnold pieace, 'The Peterloo Massacre' I am not convinced by the snare drums entrance but lack of clarity there may well be the recording/orchestra. I will change the resistors too. My view is that the cross-over filters are frequency focussed and should present the lowest possible impediment to the arrival of thos frequencies to their destinations. So I am happy to install the most efficient components and cabling. I have just installed a water butt to catch the considerable flow of rainwater off a large area of roof and I have run a hose pipe from the butt to the well in the garden. (To avoid water logging of the ground near the house). I will upgrade the hose pipe to plastic piping in due course to assure a good uninterupted, low resistance flow. I am definately into current flows right now!
I greatly appreciated the advice and help given here, my system speaks volumes to its efficacy! :-)

walpurgis

05-11-2021, 10:12

Have you considered that it may just be the nature of your particular Tannoys to sound a bit 'laid back'? Maybe you need something a bit more forthright in presentation. Get a listen to some larger Regas if you can, they tend to sound fairly open and revealing.

GrahamFP

07-11-2021, 16:11

Thank you, Walpurgis but any thoughts of changing the Tannoys would be a psychological grenade in this house. We motored all th way from near Boston to Middlesborogh to pick them up - all the family thought I was crazy to do that "just for a pair of 2nd hand speakers?!" My wife did not like them in the room but has gone from ;theyll have to go" to settling down to an evening listening to Malcolm Arnold's symphony No 5 and selecting a volume setting I would never have thought she would rise to.. What a concert we enjoyed! A moving experience. I think the tannoys are here to stay. It seems that every time I make an upgrade of component, as recommended on this forum, it's almost like getting a new pair of speakers (capacitors are much lighter to move around, these speakers are heavy!) But I may buy the odd speaker bargain to upgrade for the sheer fun of it and maybe pass on to any daughter who's interested. Ir's such an interesting subject. I now realise why am blessed with such big ears! :)

Pharos

07-11-2021, 17:23

I understand your passion and desire, travelling to buy speakers.

In Oct '17, I went with a friend to Berlin to buy my speakers, the journey costing me nearly £2k for both of us to travel and stay for two nights on the way, he driving. We audiophiles are all quite mad, but in an innocuous kind of way, no offence intended.

GrahamFP

12-11-2021, 10:14

You had obviously seen the light Pharos! :-} My wife was pretty grumpy about upgrading speakers, she was attached to the little Mission speakers she had spotted as part of a set-up she spotted in a 2nd hand furniture shop. £40.00 for a CD player, Technics 30 Watt/channel amplifier and tuner. But having listened to some dramatic Malcolm Arnold music she is now quietly keen and I can even change capacitors without protest. Enthusiasm is contagious (better say that quietly or masks and ear-plugs will be mandated)! In today's world to be put in the slightly mad box is a real compliment.

Macca

12-11-2021, 10:33

listening to great music on a system that can do it justice is one of life's higher pleasures if you ask me. It's the people who eschew it who are mad :)

Pharos

12-11-2021, 13:56

There have been many attempts to 'outlaw' sub groups with different views, they often gaslighted.

I have often been described as eccentric and an 'odd ball'. These are really attempts to belittle.

Twenty years ago "personality disorder" was often used for similar purposes, and now "outlander" is applied.
(Remember when "This is it", "At the end of the day" and "This is what we find" were popularly used?). Cliched thinking, although this description is usually inapplicable.

We can see evidently that real mental illnesses are applicable to many, and it has become a current vogue to talk about it all on the media in a PC way. Almost a badge of distinction or prowess.