View Full Version : Active not Musical?
If youre going to post on HDD that active speakers are not musical then i guess youre asking for a fight:)
Hi Colin,
I suppose so, if you're that way inclined and suitably 'precious'/defensive about your choices - or you have commercial interests to protect....
The other way of course would be respect someone else's valid opinion, which is obviously based on considerable experience, and challenge their viewpoint accordingly in a way which plays the ball and not the man ;)
That's precisely how Tim Farney, AJ and JCB were treated here until eventually they were removed after failing to 'educate' the faithful on their 'misconceptions with legacy hi-fi', and no longer able to contain their sneering contempt and inability to grasp the fact that not everyone shares their pro-objective values and obsession with measurements in audio.
Anyway, let's get back to discussing the product in question, rather than other forums and the characters that populate them. I look forward to reading Richard's input on the specifics of his designs and audio in general in due course :)
Marco.
“If youre going to post on HDD that active speakers are not musical then i guess youre asking for a fight ”
Hmm, not just me then.
I would be rather interested in hearing why Marco doesn’t think active speakers are not as musical as passive designs.
I’ve been struggling with active designs for many years now. I’ve had a couple of active quad setups, built, or at least tried to, an active system and coming from an objectivist camp, I hate to admit this, but despite getting, speed, detail, rock solid imaging, cost effectiveness and better options for room correction etc from an active crossover, I cant get the same musical feel that I do from my passive volt/scanspeak setup with all it’s flaws.
“If youre going to post on HDD that active speakers are not musical then i guess youre asking for a fight ”
Hmm, not just me then.
I would be rather interested in hearing why Marco doesn’t think active speakers are not as musical as passive designs.
I’ve been struggling with active designs for many years now. I’ve had a couple of active quad setups, built, or at least tried to, an active system and coming from an objectivist camp, I hate to admit this, but despite getting, speed, detail, rock solid imaging, cost effectiveness and better options for room correction etc from an active crossover, I cant get the same musical feel that I do from my passive volt/scanspeak setup with all it’s flaws.
To Marco or another Mod.
May we split the thread, please?
Move the above to start another with the title "Active not Musical"
Hi John,
I would be rather interested in hearing why Marco doesn’t think active speakers are not as musical as passive designs.
The truth of the matter is that I don't hold any such absolutist views. I always judge everything in audio on its own individual merit, regardless of any preconceptions, therefore I have no fixed views on active speakers. I've heard both good ones and bad ones.
In saying that, however, I can also relate to your particular situation, and I doubt I'd ever swap my Lockwoods/TD copper valve amp for ANY solid-state active set-up, particularly one involving speakers with diddy-sized little drive units, like ADM9s, which cannot hope to convey the scale and dynamic impact of live music that I demand from my system.
If I were ever to go the active route, it would be with the biggest and 'baddest' ATCs or PMCs you can get.... Don't hold your breath for that to happen, though! ;)
Marco.
“It was Richard in tongue-in-cheek mode, winding the HDD faithful up a little, that's all.”
Possibly, but I think he has a point.
Any chance of splitting this thread as suggested.
To Marco or another Mod.
May we split the thread, please?
Move the above to start another with the title "Active not Musical"
Done - so let the battle commence! :lol:
;)
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
13-08-2010, 16:46
I’ve been struggling with active designs for many years now. I’ve had a couple of active quad setups, built, or at least tried to, an active system and coming from an objectivist camp, I hate to admit this, but despite getting, speed, detail, rock solid imaging, cost effectiveness and better options for room correction etc from an active crossover, I cant get the same musical feel that I do from my passive volt/scanspeak setup with all it’s flaws.
Round & round & round it goes :doh:
There is a similar arguement between those that like valve amps & those that prefer solid state. I'm sure i'm not the only one who has seen someone type that valves are more musical? Possibly yes & one reason for this is the type of distortion that valve amps (though admittedly not all ;)) produce. Valve amplifiers tend to produce predominantly even harmonics & our ears interpret this as added musicality, so the valve amp seems "musical".
Transistorised amps tend (again not all) to produce more odd harmonics in general (though this depends on amplifier class & design) & this sounds rather unmusical & can sound in a way sterile & "brittle".
I would suggest that the same kind of thing is going on with the speakers, RE active VS passive. The passive crossover is adding all sorts of distortion to the soundfield by storing & releasing energy. It'll probably dump it pretty quickly as it has two low impedance loads to dump it into :) 1 is the drive unit & 2 is the power amplifier. With this fairly quick dumping of energy only low order harmonics will be produced, chiefly second & third harmonics. While the third might be a little more offensive there shouldn't be too many high order harmonics so the second order stuff that is there will make the speaker sound more musical again.
With an active setup there are no real amounts of even harmonics generated by the active crossover. You can't exactly say a crossover that generates approximately 0.002% distortion is going to add much to the sound :lol: Most active speakers are driven with solid state amplifiers, so unless those happen to be single ended class A amps there will be no added musicality via even order distortion :doh:
IMO :eyebrows:
Done - so let the battle commence! :lol:
;)
Marco.
There does not need to be any battle. Let's have a calm discussion about why some think active speakers are failing to deliver. In theory actives ought to be better. In practice many believe the majority of actives fail to achieve their theoretical advantage. Are they right?
And right up front let it be said that speakers are not musical instruments, but transducers; nevertheless, when all the objective measurements have been made, and all the engineering done, the judgement about whether a loudspeaker is capable of delivering music can only be subjective.
The Vinyl Adventure
13-08-2010, 17:05
[Insert generic ott praise of my active speakers] no unmusical at all, but maybe that's coz they are fed by a valve pre?... Don't know don't care, very happy with my hifi :)
Ultimate came round today to have a listen ... They were both impressed and confident I would struggle to get much better without spending many thousands for a better source ... Which won't be happening any time soon... They both had very high praise for anthony's pre amp too which is always nice ...
That sounds just about feasible, Mark! :eyebrows:
However, I tend not to get bogged down with 'distortion', as there are many different types - some of it, IME, part of the music itself, as all voices and instruments inherently have their own natural distortions.
The question is, which type of amplifier reproduces those natural distortions in music more faithfully and thus makes recorded music sound more 'musical' to the human ear? In my experience so far, valves do this better... And what they do right with music signals (not sound) is difficult to measure.
I certainly don't use valves and vintage speakers because I like a 'warm' sound and my favourite tunes cocooned in a euphonic glow - quite the opposite, in fact: I consider top-notch, well designed valve amps and speakers like (suitably modified) vintage Tannoys to be more capable of reproducing music accurately (in terms of how our ears judge this, not an oscilloscope) than any solid-state devices or modern speakers I've heard so far.
The only active set-up I'd seriously be interested in is if someone could design active crossovers for my Tannoys, and Anthony TD would be willing to build me another two copper amps to facilitate their use! ;)
Marco.
Reid Malenfant
13-08-2010, 17:18
Well i brought it up Marco because i figured it was relevant ;)
The best amplifiers i have heard were single ended class A solid state amps, now those won't produce much in the way of odd harmonics (leave that to push pull) but a spectrum of even harmonics albiet at a low level. They sounded very nice indeed, lots of bass grip but incredibly detailed & "musical".
The thing is there was something i never tried that might well be pertinent to what i mentioned earlier. If i had fed them so they created a bridge it would have naturally cancelled out most of the even order harmonics :) I wish i had tried it now thinking about it :eyebrows: The thing is it would have meant making a second prototype & 190W RMS of single ended amp uses a lot of heatsinking & power, about 1KW idling :eek:
No doubt it would sound excellent. I think Anthony and you should exchange some ideas on the subject, as I think you'll find him somewhat sympathetic of your views ;)
As an aside, you should pop up from the midlands for a sesh sometime, and I'll let you hear what 30W of pure Class A valve power sounds like through 95db efficient 15" Tannoys in huge and inert cabinets...
Just make sure you pack a clean pair of underpants - you'll need them after hearing Rammstein played at near concert levels in my fairly small room!! :eek:
:rave:
:fingers: :eyebrows:
Marco.
ebrichard
13-08-2010, 17:41
“It was Richard in tongue-in-cheek mode, winding the HDD faithful up a little, that's all.”
Possibly, but I think he has a point.
Any chance of splitting this thread as suggested.
If the truth is known, I was gettin' me own back after being accused, falsely, of not being an engineer and I did also say that there were exceptions namely ATC and Meridian.
I am sure that there are other active designs that work. As I said on that 'other' forum ( and I use the term loosely ) that there are benefits to an active design. There is NOTHING wrong with the science of it, it's the application of it. I am actually thinking of doing an active valve design if only to prove the point.
Marco system indeed has plenty of scale dynamics and passion.....as for warm nahhhhh!
We each travel our own paths and have our own compromises
Long live actives and passives
Reid Malenfant
13-08-2010, 18:02
No doubt it would sound excellent. I think Anthony and you should exchange some ideas on the subject, as I think you'll find him somewhat sympathetic of your views ;)
As an aside, you should pop up from the midlands for a sesh sometime, and I'll let you hear what 30w of pure Class A valve power sounds like through 95db efficient 15" Tannoys in huge and inert cabinets...
Just make sure you pack a clean pair of underpants - you'll need them after hearing Rammstein played at near concert levels in my fairly small room!! :eek:
Marco.
I'm sure we'll bump into each other sooner or later & have a discussion ;)
I'd love to pop up, in fact lets just say i will if & when i get another motorcycle on the road & insured :lol: No car or license this way having never passed my car test. Once a biker, always a biker in my case..
As for the underpants, i'll go commando so no need for a second pair 2441
:lol:
I won't need two pairs of trousers either, lol, i'm used to things getting to realistic volume levels :eyebrows: But i understand entirely what you are stating, 30W isn't a lot, but with 95Db/W speakers it's more like having 120W with average sensitivity speakers :)
If you can play your favourite music on your system and it makes the old hairs on the back of the neck stand up then your system is the best money can buy regardless of what a reviewer says or what test results show.
Reid Malenfant
13-08-2010, 18:22
If you can play your favourite music on your system and it makes the old hairs on the back of the neck stand up then your system is the best money can buy regardless of what a reviewer says or what test results show.
I like that :) I agree, even better when all the hairs on your arms are standing erect as well :lolsign:
Techno Commander
13-08-2010, 18:31
As long as its just your arm hair thats erect!!:eek:
:lol:
As long as its just your arm hair thats erect!!:eek:
:lol:
Well theres always Trunk records porn film soundtrack lps.
EBRichard's already said it, but why hasn't my post regarding the reason for this comment been brought across as well?
The comment was made as a wind up to certain individuals who are stuck in their "new" ways and totally refute the old ones.
I should also add that comments were made that many cheaper active speaker systems "feature" a bumped up 80Hz region to make them sound "punchy" and bigger than they are, together with a fizzed up treble to make them "sparkle" and possibly magnify his and distortion in the source material - not something one needs or wants to do for relaxed domestic listening IMO.
The two pairs of active ATC's I've owned, together with the 50A's and 200A's, can sound incredibly musical, and clear, and thick textured, and harsh, and relentless - anything that the source and driving stage gives them I think. Many passive systems can be "tuned" to a particular character by mixing and matching. Not a good thing really, but it suits many now aging audiophools, youngsters can't be a*sed.
Reid Malenfant
13-08-2010, 18:50
As long as its just your arm hair thats erect!!:eek:
:lol:
PMSL, i have never ever got any kind of boner listening to music :lolsign:
That'd have to be some system & some woman singing :eyebrows:
The Active/Passive issue is running here too
http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1133841#post1133841
Hi Dave,
EBRichard's already said it, but why hasn't my post regarding the reason for this comment been brought across as well?
What number was it? Must've missed it! :doh:
Marco.
I’m not interested in having a bloody great row about it, or even an active versus passive debate.
I have no doubt in my own mind that in theory at least an active system should be able to provide a listening experience as good, and once again in theory, better than any passive system.
The problem is for me at least that so far it isn’t happening like this.
I don’t think it’s a problem to do with solid state versus valves either, the only difference I can think of that might benefit valves is the way they clip, otherwise solid state should be able to perform as well if not better than valves.
My personal opinion leans towards something Marco points out earlier; by and large active systems favor small speakers, often with a separate sub to pick up the bass.
From the experience I have had with Subs, all is not as straightforward as it would seem.
Take the single point bass source from a sub for example.
Consider the problems associated with an active crossover feeding a separate sub.
There is a lot more to it than build a big box with a tasty driver in it and shoving it under the telly hoping glorious music will be forthcoming.
I’ve heard some, what I thought to be anyway, very good active systems. Unlike Marco I rather like the AVI 9.1 with their sub. It is at least a completely integrated system. I also happen to be a bit of a fan of the general philosophy of HiFi that AVI put forward; i.e., you don’t need to spend thousands of pounds on esoteric kit to produce stunning audio.
However, even the AVI system while eminently listenable is missing a cohesiveness that I find I get with my passive system.
My Volt/Scanspeak system may well have a few unpleasant lumps in its frequency response (nothing too drastic from my last measurement) The crossover may well send drivers unsuitable bits from time to time, a lot seems to depend on the type of music played. But, overall, I have come to prefer the sound of my passive system to any of my active builds.
Maybe I’m just crap at building active systems.
But, I have a sneaking suspicion that a 3 way active system using similar quality drivers to my passive system in large volume boxes might go some way to sorting my current discomforts out
Spot on sir!!!
Now, an ADM system with TWO subs.......
P.S. many smaller active systems roll the bass amp out below 20Hz, thus avoiding power wastage and driver damage. I believe all ATC actives do this as a matter of course and the ADM definitely does!
alfie2902
14-08-2010, 11:13
Spot on sir!!!
Now, an ADM system with TWO subs.......
P.S. many smaller active systems roll the bass amp out below 20Hz, thus avoiding power wastage and driver damage. I believe all ATC actives do this as a matter of course and the ADM definitely does!
Hmm... Now where have I seen that system before :eyebrows:
alfie2902
14-08-2010, 11:19
Round & round & round it goes :doh:
There is a similar arguement between those that like valve amps & those that prefer solid state. I'm sure i'm not the only one who has seen someone type that valves are more musical? Possibly yes & one reason for this is the type of distortion that valve amps (though admittedly not all ;)) produce. Valve amplifiers tend to produce predominantly even harmonics & our ears interpret this as added musicality, so the valve amp seems "musical".
Transistorised amps tend (again not all) to produce more odd harmonics in general (though this depends on amplifier class & design) & this sounds rather unmusical & can sound in a way sterile & "brittle".
I would suggest that the same kind of thing is going on with the speakers, RE active VS passive. The passive crossover is adding all sorts of distortion to the soundfield by storing & releasing energy. It'll probably dump it pretty quickly as it has two low impedance loads to dump it into :) 1 is the drive unit & 2 is the power amplifier. With this fairly quick dumping of energy only low order harmonics will be produced, chiefly second & third harmonics. While the third might be a little more offensive there shouldn't be too many high order harmonics so the second order stuff that is there will make the speaker sound more musical again.
With an active setup there are no real amounts of even harmonics generated by the active crossover. You can't exactly say a crossover that generates approximately 0.002% distortion is going to add much to the sound :lol: Most active speakers are driven with solid state amplifiers, so unless those happen to be single ended class A amps there will be no added musicality via even order distortion :doh:
IMO :eyebrows:
Good post :) pretty much my line of thinking too.
A version of the Pluto that didn't look like something from the space programme would be nice
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Pluto/photos.htm
And with subs
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Pluto/subwoofer.htm
alfie2902
14-08-2010, 11:32
I’m not interested in having a bloody great row about it, or even an active versus passive debate.
I have no doubt in my own mind that in theory at least an active system should be able to provide a listening experience as good, and once again in theory, better than any passive system.
The problem is for me at least that so far it isn’t happening like this.
I don’t think it’s a problem to do with solid state versus valves either, the only difference I can think of that might benefit valves is the way they clip, otherwise solid state should be able to perform as well if not better than valves.
My personal opinion leans towards something Marco points out earlier; by and large active systems favor small speakers, often with a separate sub to pick up the bass.
From the experience I have had with Subs, all is not as straightforward as it would seem.
Take the single point bass source from a sub for example.
Consider the problems associated with an active crossover feeding a separate sub.
There is a lot more to it than build a big box with a tasty driver in it and shoving it under the telly hoping glorious music will be forthcoming.
I’ve heard some, what I thought to be anyway, very good active systems. Unlike Marco I rather like the AVI 9.1 with their sub. It is at least a completely integrated system. I also happen to be a bit of a fan of the general philosophy of HiFi that AVI put forward; i.e., you don’t need to spend thousands of pounds on esoteric kit to produce stunning audio.
However, even the AVI system while eminently listenable is missing a cohesiveness that I find I get with my passive system.
My Volt/Scanspeak system may well have a few unpleasant lumps in its frequency response (nothing too drastic from my last measurement) The crossover may well send drivers unsuitable bits from time to time, a lot seems to depend on the type of music played. But, overall, I have come to prefer the sound of my passive system to any of my active builds.
Maybe I’m just crap at building active systems.
But, I have a sneaking suspicion that a 3 way active system using similar quality drivers to my passive system in large volume boxes might go some way to sorting my current discomforts out
Another good post:), if a little hard to read ;)
I really like my ADM9 & Rels :) great system for the money I paid :).The Rels don't integrate quite aswell as the AVi's subs, but only cost peanuts 2nd hand. But where it does fall down a little compared to my main system is emotional involvement! This could well be down to even order harmonics or lack of!
For emotional attachment it doesn't come close to the NAF & LVs but then there is about 10k price difference :eyebrows:
Sorry to keep on about ADM's (Marco...), but do you use analogue feeds to yours Alfie, or are you going the whole digital route? I only ask because it was easy to make the S2000 mono's I had sound this way - clean and tidy but almost stark.. A heavy duty copper stranded interconnect of low capacitance helped for me - RS used to make an old fashioned brown microphone cable with chunky copper stranded cores, a twin opposite wound screen and cotton to aid manufacture and flexibility. This was a very warm and non-hifi sounding cable and was what I used with my ATC100A's before I discovered the Beldens ATC use. Just a thought, if you wanted to try something "different." I'll try to find the current part number - a small 25m drum wasn't hugely expensive as I remember.
The nearest cable to the one I'm suggesting is this "deluxe" RS mic cable - part number 626-4856 but it's only available in 100m drums.
Dr. Flicker
14-08-2010, 12:31
The only "audiophile" active speaker I ever heard was the bi-amped, active crossover John Bowers Active 1 back in the mid 80's. And I remember being quite impressed...but they were quite expensive.
I think the reason you don't see many "audiophile" active speakers is...why would you? Really good speaker designers/manufacturers rarely build electronics. From a business/marketing standpoint, it's suicide...which is why even even a guy like John Bowers couldn't make them viable commercially, even though "audiophiles" liked them.
If something goes wrong with either component, both don't work. While perfectly matching transducers with electronics is the age old question, people like to find their own "sound" by pairing them up themselves...you can't do this with active speakers. John Bowers spent two years developing these speakers to "his" satisfaction....but not necessarily "yours".
Most "audiophiles" want options, which is why they generally want to "componentize" rather than consolidate.
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ebrichard
14-08-2010, 21:13
Hi Colin,
I suppose so, if you're that way inclined and suitably 'precious'/defensive about your choices - or you have commercial interests to protect....
The other way of course would be respect someone else's valid opinion, which is obviously based on considerable experience, and challenge their viewpoint accordingly in a way which plays the ball and not the man ;)
That's precisely how Tim Farney, AJ and JCB were treated here until eventually they were removed after failing to 'educate' the faithful on their 'misconceptions with legacy hi-fi', and no longer able to contain their sneering contempt and inability to grasp the fact that not everyone shares their pro-objective values and obsession with measurements in audio.
Anyway, let's get back to discussing the product in question, rather than other forums and the characters that populate them. I look forward to reading Richard's input on the specifics of his designs and audio in general in due course :)
Marco.
I have a very simple attitude Marco. If I was to tell you that your system was 'crap' because it's not cutting edge, I'd get crucified. Let me say now that I have designed single ended valve amps with a rock solid bass response down to 20Hz. Transistor-like in control. I have also worked with 'co-axial' drivers to the same degree. Who the hell am I to tell you what you should have? No-one!! This is a very personal hobby, and that's what it is, a hobby, and our own personal preferences take priority ( cant spell president ).:)
We had some Bowers Active Ones in for service some years ago and very good they were too as I recall. It was purely the lack of being able to mess about with amps and cables etc that put so many people off I think, whereas the pro's wanted to get away from all of that. From memory, i think the meridian M2 and M20 models were the most domestically acceptable. Why? because they were small and VERY neatly styled and the narrow profile and overall balance made them a true delight for small scale acoustic music or full orchestra's if not too loud. They popped on kick-drums via a fruitbox though, but took to CD's like ducks to water :)
Dr. Flicker
15-08-2010, 04:50
From memory, i think the meridian M2 and M20 models were the most domestically acceptable. Why? because they were small and VERY neatly styled and the narrow profile and overall balance made them a true delight for small scale acoustic music or full orchestra's if not too loud. They popped on kick-drums via a fruitbox though, but took to CD's like ducks to water
Oh...how could I forget the M2's...they are what pretty much got me to switch to that cd format. Back in the day, there was this terrific audio store here in Toronto called Brack Electronics, that had in one of their listening rooms, the new Meridian MCD being played through the M2's, with the matching Meridian pre. It was an elegant, simplistic system that was blowing everybody's (well, not everybody) socks off with this great new "audiophile" cd player. You know...the usual Telarc cd "showing off" what it could sound like.
I couldn't afford the MCD, but I did buy the Phillips 101 (which I still have kicking around). Couldn't afford the M2's either, but did have Missions. Ah...the innocent days of perfect sound forever.
I think the reason you don't see many "audiophile" active speakers is...why would you? Really good speaker designers/manufacturers rarely build electronics. From a business/marketing standpoint, it's suicide...which is why even even a guy like John Bowers couldn't make them viable commercially, even though "audiophiles" liked them.
This is exactly the way I see things, too. Often the truth hides behind simplicity. ;)
I guess I'll get active speakers when Sonus Faber will design one. That is... probably after my death ? :scratch:
I heard these a few months back not in ideal surroundings but enough to be blown away with their pontential, but way out of my price league and just would not work in my room
http://townshendaudio.com/home/products/speakers/glastonbury-tor.html
Before I built my open baffles I tried a good few speakers some active including ATC SCM50 ASL active and the M2 They were good but in the end I went down a different approach and I am very happy with the results I gained
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