Synergy, Psychoacoustics, Expectation Bias, Other?

[DarrenHW]

I’ll attempt to cut to the chase, but some background is required…

After a 3 year hiatus I’ve turned my attention back to the Celestions. I moved into this house about 2 years ago and I’ve not been happy with the way the Celestions sound here compared to my old room. I decided I needed to try something new, but after a very disappointing experience with the latest Kef Q Series speakers I decided the Celestions were my best option and so in the past month or so I’ve been working on getting the best out of them. During this time I have:
Applied basic room treatments.
Experimented with speaker horizontal and vertical placement (including Sub).
Experimented with Bi/Tri Wiring.
Experimented with Bi/Tri Amping.
Experimented with different Capacitor types and manufacturers.
Addressed cable management.
Tried different RCA cables.

The result of this is a sound I am (within the confines of this room) really quite happy with, which leads to the subject of this thread!

The Celestions are used for my Home Cinema system, which as can be seen in my sig uses a well reviewed but certainly not audiophile grade Receiver as a Pre/DAC/Streamer with my source being Spotify. I’ve never expected great musical results from this combination, however in the last couple of days it’s really started to surprise me. The dynamics/soundstage/3D (I don’t really know which one of these terms, if any, represents what I’m trying to describe?) of the sound this combination has started to produce over the last couple of days has me perplexed.

The sound is now far more 3-dimensional, sound moves and wraps around the room, it can be behind me, above me and whilst I wouldn’t go so far as to say it extends beyond the boundaries of the room it certainly extends beyond the speakers and there is a far greater sense of space and movement.
I am not surprised that tweaking and fine tuning the system has yielded improvements, what does surprise me is that I’ve only heard my system create this sort of sound when playing records. Now I’m really getting to what I’m trying to say!

My analogue system (as detailed under “Listening Room” in my sig) using the Celestions has always been capable of creating the sound I am now hearing with my Home Cinema, but only when the TT was the source, nothing digital (previously an Oppo 105 fed FLAC by a RPi) has ever had the same dynamics.

So my question is how? If it’s taken all of this tweaking to get the Celestions to sound like this with a digital source how come I’ve had a dynamic/3D/immersive sound from the TT?

Was there some magical synergy in my analogue gear?

Does it fall into the realm of psychoacoustics? Did my analogue system create a tone/timbre that hit my aural G spot and through the combination of the tweaks I’ve stumbled across a similar sound and I am just able to process the vibrations better.

Is it just good ole fashioned expectation bias? Has my sound not really improved that much, I’m just paying more attention and hearing what I want to?

(All listening has been done in Pure Direct with no room correction or EQ applied)

[Marco]

Did my analogue system create a tone/timbre that hit my aural G spot and through the combination of the tweaks I’ve stumbled across a similar sound and I am just able to process the vibrations better.


Is it just me, or does that sound as kinky as hell?:D;)

Anyway... Good thread, although you're not seriously expecting your digital gear to sound the same as your T/T?:eek: Ain't gonna happen dude, especially with a 401, which has a typically 'analogue' sound (in a good way), which no digital gear (streaming or CD) will be able to replicate. You can get a Techy to sound rather like a good digital source, but not a good digital source sounding like a 401...

However, I think the key lies in this statement:


My analogue system (as detailed under “Listening Room” in my sig) using the Celestions has always been capable of creating the sound I am now hearing with my Home Cinema, but only when the TT was the source, nothing digital (previously an Oppo 105 fed FLAC by a RPi) has ever had the same dynamics.


Aside from what I've just written, I think it's mainly (but not wholly) down to the synergy between your 401 (and its constituent parts), and the Croft/Quad combo. Particularly the Croft, as not only does it have an excellent built-in phono stage, but as a preamp it's better than what the Denon's doing in your other system.

Therefore, what's happening there, synergy-wise, isn't being achieved to the same degree, through the Denon/Nakamichi combo, on 2-channel duties with your digital front end(s), partly due to the more complicated path (accumulate components) that the music signal has to negotiate.

In short, therefore, IMO, only by improving the amps (pre and power, but most likely the pre will be more sonically influential) in your home-cinema system, for digital 2-channel duties, *or* incorporating your streaming set-up into your listening room, will you get closer to the sound that you're after from streaming, or indeed any other digital souce.

Marco.

[DarrenHW]

Is it just me, or does that sound as kinky as hell?:D;)

It was supposed to, this is AoS after all! I did consider "flicked my aural bean" but thought it may have been lost on some...


Aside from what I've just written, I think it's mainly (but not wholly) down to the synergy between your 401 (and its constituent parts), and the Croft/Quad combo. Particularly the Croft, as not only does it have an excellent built-in phono stage, but as a preamp it's better than what the Denon's doing in your other system.

This to me is the most logical answer and raises the question as to how would things sound if I plugged the Garrard et al into the Celestions now?


Therefore, what's happening there, synergy-wise, isn't being achieved to the same degree, through the Denon/Nakamichi combo, on 2-channel duties with your digital front end(s), partly due to the more complicated path (accumulate components) that the music signal has to negotiate.

In short, therefore, IMO, only by improving the amps (pre and power, but most likely the pre will be more sonically influential) in your home-cinema system, for digital 2-channel duties, *or* incorporating your streaming set-up into your listening room, will you get closer to the sound that you're after from streaming, or indeed any other digital souce.

Marco.

I think you've misunderstood what I'm saying. I don't for one minute expect the Home Cinema (especially using Spotify as a source) to hold a candle to the analogue system, that's not it's purpose. I'm very happy with the sound from the Home Cinema. The reason I've started this thread is not only because it sounds way better than I expected it to but also because I can't get my head around how it has improved so much with no change to the source or amplification. If I've had to work on the speakers and room to get this level of dynamics, how come the analogue could deliver it before. And how come when I plugged the Oppo into the Croft/Quads it didn't have the same dynamics :scratch:

[Pharos]

Can't really get a grip on this.

Firstly with digital the tracks have often been remastered, and by those who do not have a feel for the original ethos, and there is also the compression involved in loudness wars to consider. But disregarding this I consider the medium to be intrinsically better than vinyl.

Then there is the fact that probably all of us were imprinted with vinyl, and find its errors subconsciously pleasing because of familiarity.

I also cannot understand why anyone thinks film sound is good. IMO speech is poorly recorded, and the wide dynamic range played with by the producers in a most artificial way, thus ruining its inherent potential.

[DarrenHW]

Can't really get a grip on this.

Firstly with digital the tracks have often been remastered, and by those who do not have a feel for the original ethos, and there is also the compression involved in loudness wars to consider. But disregarding this I consider the medium to be intrinsically better than vinyl.

Then there is the fact that probably all of us were imprinted with vinyl, and find its errors subconsciously pleasing because of familiarity.

I think your point of nature versus nurture has real relevance, vinyl for me has only ever really been a nostalgia trip. I find that I predominantly prefer music on vinyl that was influenced by my parents and I was therefore familiar with hearing it from an analogue source. Having bought a number of albums on vinyl that I originally bought in my teenage years on CD, I am generally disappointed with the vinyl. This is not always the case, I have been blown away by how much more I have enjoyed some albums on vinyl that I knew intimately from CD, but this is the exception rather than the rule and as you say points more to mastering.


I also cannot understand why anyone thinks film sound is good. IMO speech is poorly recorded, and the wide dynamic range played with by the producers in a most artificial way, thus ruining its inherent potential.

I completely understand where you're coming from. Obviously the better the system, the more it is capable of resolving the many channels that are now utilised in film sound tracks, but I agree that the sound can in many circumstances sound artificial and compromised. For me though it is the immersive environment that is created by a Home Cinema system that brings another dimension to the viewing experience. As I see it, it is not the job of a soundtrack to deliver Hi-Fi, but to create the illusion that you are in the scene and maybe this is the compromise that is made?

[struth]

i will say speach in film with multi channels is poor in general to uncompressed mono or 2 channel. if you listen to the remastered old films done well you'll hear speach done right by masters.

[Barry]

i will say speach in film with multi channels is poor in general to uncompressed mono or 2 channel. if you listen to the remastered old films done well you'll hear speach done right by masters.

I would say I agree, but only because I dislike the 'surround sound' employed in modern cinemas. Sounds appearing to come from above or behind me I find annoying, despite the film maker's attempt at realism.

Thus at home I simply use a "2.0" system comprising a pair of Bowers and Wilkins DM2a speakers fed by a Quad 520 power amplifier.

[Macca]

what's the source for the home cinema?

Sound quality starts at the source, i.e the recording, and nothing is equal there. Plus if we are talking TV channels the sound quality varies quite a bit. Some channels the SQ is very good now. I've heard sound effects on TV broadcasts that seem to come from a good 8 feet to the left or right of the loudspeaker, and that's with just 2 channels.

[Barry]

In my case, the TV itself (either receiving a signal off the air, or fed from the DVD/Bluray player) via an HDMI to analogue converter.

Not 'state of the art by any means', but works for me.

Hearing sounds outside the confines of the speakers, or even of the walls of the room itself is nothing new: it all depends on how you have the speakers positioned.

[Macca]

It's nothing new but it does require a pretty high standard of broadcast quality before it happens.

Speakers are just sat either side of screen, nothing special happening there.