View Full Version : Speaker re-wire and re-cap
Opti-cal
14-07-2021, 07:16
Hi guys,
I'm in the process of rewiring and recapping a pair of Loth X BS1 speakers.
They are pretty efficient (94db-ish) and have a full range paper driver with a tweeter to extend over around 16khz.
The tweeter has an MKP-FC cap rated at 1.5uF (400v) in line with it so I'm going to replace them as I don't know how old they are. I'd also like a performance upgrade if possible.
https://i.ibb.co/c811hKb/IMG-20210714-062135-600.jpg (https://ibb.co/X5bbxfy)
I like the sound as it is at the moment so hopefully replacing the internal wiring (which is pretty dire looking) with some nice OCC stuff and upgrading the caps will yield some nice improvement.
At the moment I'm thinking Auricap/Clarity/Jantzen/Miflex/Mundorf
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/1-5uf-400v-auricap-xo.html
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/cc4mr045-15uf-400v-claritycap-range-polypropylene-p-8687.html
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/zsil110-15uf-800vdc-jantzen-silver-zcap-p-9908.html
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/miflex-kpal01h515j-1-5uf-600v-kpal-aluminium-foil-capacitor.html
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/sup8100-15uf-600v-supreme-polypropylene-caps-p-1741.html
https://www.hificollective.co.uk/content/evosgo-090-15uf-450v-mundorf-mcap-evo-silver-gold-oil-capacitor
Anything else I should be considering around these prices?
I've never actually changed the caps in speakers before, only preamps and phono stages so any advice much appreciated.
Cheers
Chris
if the tweeter is only rolling in at 16Khz it's pretty much superfluous.
You could look at replacing the full range driver with a better one, if possible.
Opti-cal
14-07-2021, 08:28
if the tweeter is only rolling in at 16Khz it's pretty much superfluous.
You could look at replacing the full range driver with a better one, if possible.
I think it's around 16khz so it will make a difference. It definitely adds some top end 'sparkle' even if you can't specifically pick it out. I can hear 18-19 quite easily. I have to turn off all those ruddy mouse replant things my in-laws keep in their house.
The drivers are good, nowt wrong with them. Also it's a weird shape . . . . I guess I'd have to look at other Loth X ones, and they are pretty expensive.
https://i.ibb.co/6tZ7JCC/320161-6773cdb8-lothx-ion-bs1-highefficiency-speakers.jpg (https://ibb.co/LgPXh77)
See weird shape . . . . or is this a standardized driver shape/type?
No not unusual. Getting the screw holes to match is the hard part.
Probably are good drivers, I was just chucking out suggestions, since you asked.
I got a review of those Loths in an old HFW somewhere. IIRC they have a big mid-range hump and no bass, a bit like Linn Kans. Much higher efficiency though
walpurgis
14-07-2021, 16:19
Fairly common shape, similar to the KEF B200. The Tannoy 'in house' term for drivers that sort of shape was 'quartic'. (I know, 'cos they told me :))
Ali Tait
14-07-2021, 16:50
If the tweeter is 8 ohms, a 1.5uF cap will give 13250hz, 4 ohms will give 26500hz. Might be worth changing the wiring, I think any new cap you buy will sound a little different, won't really be a big improvement IMO. The existing cap will be fine.
Opti-cal
15-07-2021, 06:56
No not unusual. Getting the screw holes to match is the hard part.
Probably are good drivers, I was just chucking out suggestions, since you asked.
I got a review of those Loths in an old HFW somewhere. IIRC they have a big mid-range hump and no bass, a bit like Linn Kans. Much higher efficiency though
Haha, yes I have to agree with the review there. They are coloured, they are rolled off, they have little to no bass below 60Hz . . . . BUT . . . with a SET amplifier, the finesse and overall cohesion they bring to the music is genuinely quite astonishing. I've been in love with them for years and always will be. They were the first speakers which gave me actual immersion into the music/goosebumps stuff.
Mated with a sub crossed around 60Hz they actually fill a medium sized room really well.
Opti-cal
15-07-2021, 06:59
If the tweeter is 8 ohms, a 1.5uF cap will give 13250hz, 4 ohms will give 26500hz. Might be worth changing the wiring, I think any new cap you buy will sound a little different, won't really be a big improvement IMO. The existing cap will be fine.
Ah okay, thanks Ali, so they might actually be in play a little earlier than I had thought. Well I'm doing the rewire and I have eventually settled on some Jantzen Superior Z-cap's which won't break the bank so no real risk there.
Hi Chris, the Jantzen cap you have chosen sounds great and is a nice upgrade over the SCR (Solen) in your photo. I can't see the rest of your XO but if it uses those white sand cast abominations for resistors then while you are at it replace them too. Mills 12W are good but not the only option. I see some wires crimped to a brass push-on lug. I recommend cutting the nasty thing off and soldering instead.
Don't know if you are aware of this very informative/exhaustive cap collection review. I find it to be accurate regarding the caps I have tried.
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
Do not be swayed by those who think reproduction of the very high frequencies are unimportant because they can't hear above say 14Khz. It's the higher order harmonics that contain much of the clues to the acoustic space and the placement of performers within that space.
The higher frequencies when reproduced combined with the instrument's fundamental allow the ear/brain relationship to identify that instrument. If the harmonics are removed from some instruments like piano, sax or any other and are asked to play for example middle-C, what you will hear is a pure tone of 261.6 Hz. That is to say you will not be able to tell what is producing that annoying tone. When the instruments complex harmonics are added back to the fundamental you will then be able to recognise the instrument as a piano and the more complete the harmonics the more the piano sounds like a piano and the more delineated it becomes. This leads to less listener fatigue.
In nature we tuned into these high frequencies as part of our survival mechanism. A sharp crack of branch or dry twig snapping would alert us to danger and also indicate the direction from which it may come. Now if all the old farts could not hear the top octave as part of the sound they would have all been eaten. :unfair:
Look up a white paper article by Max Townshend who is a proponent and producer of super-tweeters which respond up to about 60Khz or somewhere. Can't remember the title but something to do with 'Beyond 20Khz' A very important disclosure and a way of taking your sound beyond what cables and amp upgrades can achieve.
The Miflex caps I have not heard so perhaps you would like to buy a pair of those as well so you can report back with your findings :eyebrows:
If you can't hear it then you can't hear and there's no point having it. Not really much more that can be said.
I found the article I mentioned;
http://www.townshendaudio.com/PDF/The-world-beyond-20kHz.pdf
This should be read by anybody who wants better sound which I think applies to just about everybody subscribed to an audiophile forum.
Max Townshend is no fool and the above article is informative and quite fascinating. There are many who will not accept, even with proof, that the addition of a supertweeter improves not only the treble but bass and midrange as well.
@Macca, you state: 'If you can't hear it then you can't hear and there's no point having it. Not really much more that can be said'
I certainly can hear it and there is, if you read the article I linked to, much to be said. It appears from your myopic stance that you have neither listened to a supertweeter nor bothered to investigate whether some of these claims have any merit. Perhaps you do yourself a disservice.
lol perhaps I do but I doubt it.
Whilst your correct about difference tones you have to consider the amplitude as well as the frequency of your two tones.
Max Townsend is a clever bloke but he's primarily a salesman.
I own some speakers that have two super-tweeters per side.
Interesting, why do you bother then with expensive tweeters when you are convinced you can not hear them? Did they come with the speakers and have you tried listening to them when disconnected?
Opti-cal
16-07-2021, 06:39
Hi Chris, the Jantzen cap you have chosen sounds great and is a nice upgrade over the SCR (Solen) in your photo. I can't see the rest of your XO but if it uses those white sand cast abominations for resistors then while you are at it replace them too. Mills 12W are good but not the only option. I see some wires crimped to a brass push-on lug. I recommend cutting the nasty thing off and soldering instead.
Don't know if you are aware of this very informative/exhaustive cap collection review. I find it to be accurate regarding the caps I have tried.
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
Do not be swayed by those who think reproduction of the very high frequencies are unimportant because they can't hear above say 14Khz. It's the higher order harmonics that contain much of the clues to the acoustic space and the placement of performers within that space.
The higher frequencies when reproduced combined with the instrument's fundamental allow the ear/brain relationship to identify that instrument. If the harmonics are removed from some instruments like piano, sax or any other and are asked to play for example middle-C, what you will hear is a pure tone of 261.6 Hz. That is to say you will not be able to tell what is producing that annoying tone. When the instruments complex harmonics are added back to the fundamental you will then be able to recognise the instrument as a piano and the more complete the harmonics the more the piano sounds like a piano and the more delineated it becomes. This leads to less listener fatigue.
In nature we tuned into these high frequencies as part of our survival mechanism. A sharp crack of branch or dry twig snapping would alert us to danger and also indicate the direction from which it may come. Now if all the old farts could not hear the top octave as part of the sound they would have all been eaten. :unfair:
Look up a white paper article by Max Townshend who is a proponent and producer of super-tweeters which respond up to about 60Khz or somewhere. Can't remember the title but something to do with 'Beyond 20Khz' A very important disclosure and a way of taking your sound beyond what cables and amp upgrades can achieve.
The Miflex caps I have not heard so perhaps you would like to buy a pair of those as well so you can report back with your findings :eyebrows:
Hi Charles,
thanks for the links. Absolutely looking forward to getting rid of those nasty looking wires and crimped spades (probably nickel or something!) for soldered OCC from binding post to driver.
Re: Sound above 16khz,
It's a conclusion I've subscribed to for a quite a while now. I've always though inaudible frequencies interact with audible ones, so simply cutting them off and removing the so called 'inaudible' ones has never made sense to me.
I used to produce a lot of electronic music and applying brick wall filters to frequencies below 10Hz and above 25khz affected the 'sound' of the frequencies in between them. For better or worse, but it did have an effect.
I always liken it to watching trees on a windy day out of the window. You can't see the wind, but you can fully see and feel it's effects on objects that you can see (and hear). It's the same with sound pressure waves (of whatever frequency).
Even though you cannot hear it, you can measure it and your ears receive these inaudible frequencies the same as audible ones, so removing them completely changes the 'make-up' of the sound and the sound waves that produce them.
I'm not really fussed if anyone else subscribes to it or not, but understanding these subtleties gives me a better chance of making my music sound better, and for me, that's the goal.
Cheers
walpurgis
16-07-2021, 07:00
My perception of high frequencies does not stop at "14 kHz", it stops at 10kHz, due to my age no doubt. But, things do not sound 'right' to me if frequencies above 10 kHz are missing.
Interesting, why do you bother then with expensive tweeters when you are convinced you can not hear them? Did they come with the speakers and have you tried listening to them when disconnected?
I was mistaken, there are actually three supertweeters per side, they are built in to the speakers. But like all supertweeters they have output in the audible range so I would notice a difference if I disconnected them. Really this is a subject for a separate thread I think.
fatmarley
16-07-2021, 07:58
If you can't hear it then you can't hear and there's no point having it. Not really much more that can be said.
Agree.
If a "super tweeter" crosses at 16khz with a single capacitor, then there's going to be a lot of overlap. The ST won't just start at 16khz, it will be producing sound a lot lower in frequency due to the shallow slope, and that's what you'll be hearing.
It's quite difficult to integrate a tweeter at very high frequencies and most that are done by ear will have large peaks and dips in the frequency response. I wouldn't at all be surprised if that was the case with this tweeter.
Someone on another forum posted an excellent video showing what happens to the frequency response when you try adding a super tweeter. I'll try to find it and post it here...
My perception of high frequencies does not stop at "14 kHz", it stops at 10kHz, due to my age no doubt. But, things do not sound 'right' to me if frequencies above 10 kHz are missing.
inclined to think even if you cant hear it you can sense it not being there. odd i know
Hi Chris, have fun and please let us know how the mods turn out. I think you will be nicely rewarded.
Lawrence001
16-07-2021, 11:22
inclined to think even if you cant hear it you can sense it not being there. odd i knowThere are several theories on this that were done when SACD came out and speakers were made with supertweeters on. I think one was that your brain might sense it through hairs rather than ears (or maybe it was hairs in the ears I forget). If you think that your body can sense low bass from the stomach and other parts then maybe it's not that far fetched.
Bump: http://www.townshendaudio.com/PDF/The-world-beyond-20kHz.pdf
This white paper I linked to earlier explains all this and should be required reading. There is a whole bunch of info on how we hear and the workings of the ear/brain relationship which is simply amazing.
This is really interesting stuff and I encourage all to read it. Max Townshend's thorough exploration has solid merit regardless of him being relegated to salesman status.
Bump: http://www.townshendaudio.com/PDF/The-world-beyond-20kHz.pdf
This white paper I linked to earlier explains all this and should be required reading. There is a whole bunch of info on how we hear and the workings of the ear/brain relationship which is simply amazing.
This is really interesting stuff and I encourage all to read it. Max Townshend's thorough exploration has solid merit regardless of him being relegated to salesman status.
The paper is not from Max Townsend it is from Dave Blackmer of Earthworks whose business is selling microphones that can transduce signals beyond 22 Khz. And it's completely anecdotal.
OK so Townshend did not write it but does that invalidate the paper? And in what way is this anecdotal?
Have you read the paper??? I think not. I do not believe that anybody reading the vast amount of fact and research could possible misconstrue this as anecdotal.
fatmarley
16-07-2021, 17:11
https://youtu.be/razZspj7S0o
OK so Townshend did not write it but does that invalidate the paper? And in what way is this anecdotal?
Have you read the paper??? I think not. I do not believe that anybody reading the vast amount of fact and research could possible misconstrue this as anecdotal.
I read it some years ago but I did read it again. It quotes no research. It's just advertising copy.
The reason you hear a difference with your super tweeters is because they are producing sound that is well into the audible range. Also you will probably have some comb filtering with the output of the standard tweeter that might also be audible. Your not hearing ultra sonics or the side effects of ultra sonics.
walpurgis
16-07-2021, 19:54
If the output from a supertweeter is noticeably audible it has not been implemented correctly. The function should be to extend the treble output beyond/above that of the main tweeter, not to add to treble levels.
what is meant by a 'super tweeter' has changed over the years a bit though. Modern tweeters have no problem running flat to 20Khz, that wasn't always the case so if you wanted to spec your speaker as having full-range response 20hz to 20Khz you had to augment.
Also I think in the UK you could avoid having to charge luxury tax if the speaker was 'professional' which meant it had to be a three-way (might be wrong about that)
Plus the marketing angle = 'That one has a super tweeter, that one doesn't, the one with the extra driver must be better.'
Now some people seem to think that it's only a super-tweeter if it is only doing super-sonics but I don't think there is any mainstream commercial speaker with a super tweeter like that. For example the JBL super tweeters that augment their compression drivers in the Everest et al are audible from 16khz IIRC.
Ali Tait
16-07-2021, 21:27
Hi Chris, the Jantzen cap you have chosen sounds great and is a nice upgrade over the SCR (Solen) in your photo. I can't see the rest of your XO but if it uses those white sand cast abominations for resistors then while you are at it replace them too. Mills 12W are good but not the only option. I see some wires crimped to a brass push-on lug. I recommend cutting the nasty thing off and soldering instead.
Don't know if you are aware of this very informative/exhaustive cap collection review. I find it to be accurate regarding the caps I have tried.
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
Do not be swayed by those who think reproduction of the very high frequencies are unimportant because they can't hear above say 14Khz. It's the higher order harmonics that contain much of the clues to the acoustic space and the placement of performers within that space.
The higher frequencies when reproduced combined with the instrument's fundamental allow the ear/brain relationship to identify that instrument. If the harmonics are removed from some instruments like piano, sax or any other and are asked to play for example middle-C, what you will hear is a pure tone of 261.6 Hz. That is to say you will not be able to tell what is producing that annoying tone. When the instruments complex harmonics are added back to the fundamental you will then be able to recognise the instrument as a piano and the more complete the harmonics the more the piano sounds like a piano and the more delineated it becomes. This leads to less listener fatigue.
In nature we tuned into these high frequencies as part of our survival mechanism. A sharp crack of branch or dry twig snapping would alert us to danger and also indicate the direction from which it may come. Now if all the old farts could not hear the top octave as part of the sound they would have all been eaten. :unfair:
Look up a white paper article by Max Townshend who is a proponent and producer of super-tweeters which respond up to about 60Khz or somewhere. Can't remember the title but something to do with 'Beyond 20Khz' A very important disclosure and a way of taking your sound beyond what cables and amp upgrades can achieve.
The Miflex caps I have not heard so perhaps you would like to buy a pair of those as well so you can report back with your findings :eyebrows:
I've tried the Miflex caps and in fact use them on the tweeters in my Bastanis open baffles in the same manner ( ie a first order high pass crossover), albeit paralleled with a couple of others to get the correct value. I've also tried the Jantzen caps amongst many others. The Jantzen are nice caps but I don't agree that in this application they will be a significant upgrade. Like all caps they colour the sound each in their own characteristic way. It's just a matter of picking which flavour you prefer.
There aren't any other crossover components BTW, the clue is in the words "Run full range"
Ali Tait
16-07-2021, 21:29
what is meant by a 'super tweeter' has changed over the years a bit though. Modern tweeters have no problem running flat to 20Khz, that wasn't always the case so if you wanted to spec your speaker as having full-range response 20hz to 20Khz you had to augment.
Also I think in the UK you could avoid having to charge luxury tax if the speaker was 'professional' which meant it had to be a three-way (might be wrong about that)
Plus the marketing angle = 'That one has a super tweeter, that one doesn't, the one with the extra driver must be better.'
Now some people seem to think that it's only a super-tweeter if it is only doing super-sonics but I don't think there is any mainstream commercial speaker with a super tweeter like that. For example the JBL super tweeters that augment their compression drivers in the Everest et al are audible from 16khz IIRC.
Yep, and dependent on crossover slope, will have significant output lower than that, not to mention lower harmonics.
I think this is going off track.
Ali Tait (arguing semantics?), part of your post: "but I don't agree that in this application they will be a significant upgrade" Please reread my post, I said 'a NICE upgrade, but lets wait and see if the owner reports back with the results. I also 'get it' that it is a full range plus a tweeter to augment the highs but also get it that it is seldom 2 very dissimilar drivers, a cone full range and dome tweeter have the same sensitivity and that resistors are usually required to achieve balance. I also did mention the word - - - if
I did not mention nor regard the tweeter used in the Loth speakers as a super-tweeter, and was only referred to in relation to the link I supplied with the intention of bringing to light the fascinating way in which we perceive sound. It explains how and why a super-tweeter is beneficial even though the range of operation is way above humans' ability to directly hear those frequencies. The article also mentions how, paradoxically, a super-tweeter can improve the mids and bass as well.
A lot of effort and great expense is lavished on this hobby and I provided the link which details another path to great sound, thinking it may be useful to some. Seems I was mistaken.
My intent was to help as I do have a lot of experience with crossover design and the influence different caps have but it appears all I did was open up a path to have various members direct their efforts not so much to help the original poster but to rather pull apart my efforts!
No-one's pulling apart your efforts.
In addition to recommending a brand of capacitor you also advanced the maverick theory that reproducing frequencies beyond the range of human hearing can be of benefit to sound quality.
Only to be expected that some would argue the contrary.
I agree with you that the tweeter in question here is not really a super tweeter since there is no standard tweeter for it to be 'super' to. If that helps any :)
others are entitled to their opinions. it just expands on your post. extra or different info isnt always critisism
Opti-cal
17-07-2021, 14:01
Personally I'm grateful for all the contributions, always am.
Also enjoying and learning from the debate.
Wire for them should be here next week so I'll report my findings after they've settled in a bit.
From experience I know that adding subs (below 50hz) has a significant audible (not necessarily measurable) effect on how the midrange from speakers sounds. Not exactly a stretch for the same to be true at the opposite frequency extreme.
As mentioned the ears are not the only 'sense' that receive and process sound waves to the brain, just the main and obvious ones.
Grant, sure people are entitled to their opinions but I do not appreciate someone changing what I wrote to alter my meaning! Changing nice to significant is not what I intended to say. (1st. line in my post No. 9)
Perhaps I don't understand the forum rules. The original poster clearly asked for advice on changing the caps and which ones to consider, not if it was necessary to change it. What comes back is that it will not matter, that it can't be heard etc.
After 30 posts it appears I'm the only one who directly addressed the question. What have the other posts been about? Some have made no sense. I don't understand why someone with nothing positive to add with regards to the OP's question actually bothers to post unless there is a pissing competition to see who can accumulate the most posts.
I feel I do two things well :
a/ skipper a boat, anywhere, anytime and in any weather
b/ design a speaker, particularly the crossover
I have not mentioned this before, did not want to appear to be bragging but I currently have one of my speaker designs being sold commercially in South Africa where I am from originally. The mandate was to design a small speaker to offer as an alternative to the way overpriced and in my opinion dynamically constipated LS3/5A. Mike the store owner, ex-customer of mine and friend claims 'they sound fantastic'. These little things take up residence amongst Eggleston Works, Vandersteen, Living Voice and Martin Logan and some others. This ramble is to convey that understandably many caps were auditioned and exhaustively compared as were resistors. I used drivers with smooth extended roll-off to keep XO components to a minimum and agonised over XO point going lower and lower until the 2 drive units XO'd at about 1700Hz gave me the accurate phase tracking that I was looking for around the chosen XO point. To my old ears the transition is seamless.
With consideration of the above I felt qualified to answer the OP's question.
jahsavage
17-07-2021, 18:31
Hi Opt-ical
I think you will be shocked by the difference changing the capacitor will make but to be happy you will have to buy a selection to determine what you prefer.
I also suggest you buy some acoustic foam since this may be useful if you have to re-balance the mid and tweeter. Oil and wax capacitors give a smoother sound, the lower Mundolf's offer lots of detail but can make the sound appear artificial.
Rewiring with quality wire can make a big difference but this will depend upon the quality of your drivers and the rest of your system.
I suggest you leave super tweeters for now since integrating them seamlessly is incredibly difficult. Initially you would be impressed by the sparkle it can add but this can easily turn to hardness and unevenness in the upper frequencies.
Happy experimenting.
jahsavage
18-07-2021, 05:05
and while I remember, get youself some crocodile clips so you can easily exchange capacitors. It may also find it interesting to get some values slightly above and below the existing value.
Opti-cal
18-07-2021, 05:34
and while I remember, get youself some crocodile clips so you can easily exchange capacitors. It may also find it interesting to get some values slightly above and below the existing value.
Hi Paul thanks for your comments and suggestions.
I've got some Jantzen Superior Z caps to stick in when my OCC wire arrives at some point this week.
Nice tip on the crocodile clips too. My preamp has the facility of screwing caps in via terminals to switch them in and out very quickly, great feature.
As I've said given the appearance of the current wiring there's no doubt it's going to be better, just how much, I'm looking forward to hearing.
Cheers.
Hi Chris,
The original Solen cap is perfectly fine, those don't age at all.
Solen is a serious company, and they produce real components, nothing like the snake oil caps some people advise you to buy.
I've used those for 40 years in my DIY efforts and to replace bipolar electrolytics - the ones that really need replacing - with zero trouble.
They are of truly excellent quality, and changing them won't do anything to the sound of your speakers. Don't believe the hype, leave them well alone!
There.
Opti-cal
21-07-2021, 08:17
Hi Chris,
The original Solen cap is perfectly fine, those don't age at all.
Solen is a serious company, and they produce real components, nothing like the snake oil caps some people advise you to buy.
I've used those for 40 years in my DIY efforts and to replace bipolar electrolytics - the ones that really need replacing - with zero trouble.
They are of truly excellent quality, and changing them won't do anything to the sound of your speakers. Don't believe the hype, leave them well alone!
There.
Hi Jacques,
thanks for the advice there, that sounds like solid, logical advice. I had assumed that the Jantzen's would be an upgrade which I may still try but I may just replace the wire and see what a difference that makes first.
Thanks again.
Opti-cal
29-07-2021, 12:12
Update - got enough wire to finish this time . . . . was literally 20cm short as I doubled up the gauge on all the connections so had to order more!
Old wiring:
https://i.ibb.co/k9ymhvr/IMG-20210729-112827-028.jpg (https://ibb.co/RBSjCdM)
https://i.ibb.co/99KYnjy/IMG-20210729-113017-880.jpg (https://ibb.co/d0CKByk)
New wiring: (bypassed those horrible little tags which connect the main driver leads). Secured new wire with tip ties to allow enough slack for the drivers to move to their maximum throw length. Tweeter tags remain.
https://i.ibb.co/TBvfPJ1/IMG-20210729-121233-375.jpg (https://ibb.co/ccgB2Rw)
https://i.ibb.co/KbfrQF5/IMG-20210729-122618-930.jpg (https://ibb.co/k5wSrQG)
https://i.ibb.co/dc8gGnV/IMG-20210729-122625-742.jpg (https://ibb.co/qnT5kbc)
Soldered in the old caps (took Chartz' advice) as I also wanted to hear the difference just changing the wire made to the speakers. I may solder the Jantzens in at a later date as I can just cut the wire and solder them on further up on fresh wire.
https://i.ibb.co/bWy5xWw/IMG-20210729-123722-900.jpg (https://ibb.co/tmNpSmj)
Reattached all wires into the new binding posts. They are only screwed down at the moment in case I have messed anything up (highly likely) or want to change the caps. If I'm 100% happy I'll solder them to the posts.
https://i.ibb.co/tQmNMsM/IMG-20210729-124656-367.jpg (https://ibb.co/bQWygBg)
Viola . . . . Speakers look exactly the same bar the binding posts from the outside, haha. I'm hoping they will be significantly better on the inside now though!
https://i.ibb.co/jMk8Ftg/IMG-20210729-125139-825.jpg (https://ibb.co/85gmVk6)
https://i.ibb.co/q9m62wy/IMG-20210729-125207-604.jpg (https://ibb.co/1KRc4xv)
Will update on how they sound tonight hopefully!
Hi,
Not at all with you on the woofer mod :eek: You can’t do that: you can be certain that it won’t be long till the braids break.
Opti-cal
29-07-2021, 13:00
Also just gave em a ruddy good oiling!
I'd forgotten how lovely the finish is on them actually. In a lounge on matt black stands they score very highly on the WAF.....
https://i.ibb.co/GdmBZJJ/IMG-20210729-135539-405.jpg (https://ibb.co/vc9gNBB)
https://i.ibb.co/HTRNVTn/IMG-20210729-135547-504.jpg (https://ibb.co/MkK8skM)
https://i.ibb.co/6PR0FLX/IMG-20210729-135554-352.jpg (https://ibb.co/Yk7Bhw0)
Opti-cal
29-07-2021, 13:01
Hi,
Not at all with you on the woofer mod :eek: You can’t do that: you can be certain that it won’t be long till the braids break.
Not disagreeing but why, if they are under no stress?
Opti-cal
29-07-2021, 13:08
If what you say is the case then why bother rewiring using nice cable and running the signal through crappy tags? Makes less sense to me to do that to be honest.
I did consider if it would be alright that way or not and even at the drivers most extreme (which it never gets anywhere near) the braid hardly moves.
If the worst does happen I actually have a spare set of drivers and lesson learned but I genuinely don't think it will. These aren't part of a big system and are driven by a low power SET at very modest volumes.
The tags are not ‘crappy’ (who on earth told you that?) and I can assure you that they won’t affect the sound any more than a bit a fancy rewire or posh capacitor!
You probably will think they sound better this way – you did something and you did it!
Of course you are experimenting and that’s a good thing.
They do look nice though!
Opti-cal
29-07-2021, 13:27
The tags are not ‘crappy’ (who on earth told you that?) and I can assure you that they won’t affect the sound any more than a bit a fancy rewire or posh capacitor!
You probably will think they sound better this way – you did something and you did it!
Of course you are experimenting and that’s a good thing.
They do look nice though!
Well they didn't look great (thin flimsy) so I thought "get em outta there". A bit rash then it would seem.
That's exactly it, I am experimenting so I appreciate you understanding that as I'm sure from a novice to an expert, you've been there yourself.
The proof will be in the listening of course and as you elude to if I think it 'should' sound better, my brain will make it so. Can't really help that I'm afraid.
I do usually throw out questions to garner opinions on such mods from experienced builders like yourself but I just thought I'd crack on this time, especially as I do have a spare pair of drivers . . . .
Thanks for your answers anyway.
Oh yes I’ve been there! :wheniwasaboy:
Enjoy your work and do come back to us to share your findings!
Opti-cal
30-07-2021, 06:50
Having had a decent listening session last night I can at least say . . . . I haven't made them any worse (sounding) . . .
Honestly though they actually sound really 'nice'. By that I mean they aren't going to shake the walls, they aren't going to thump your chest or give you that lower or upper octave of any performance.
They are rolled off and a little coloured perhaps, but the full midrange is simply there, floating around the soundstage, sympathetic to any recording wherever you are in the room. The horn loading helps spread the soundstage around too, it adds some dramatic reverb where it is present on the recording and really gives texture to voices and instruments.
The reason I've been drawn to them for years though, is their ability to just make you listen. Jazz and vocals are particularly well portrayed, reed and wood instruments also sound honest and accurate.
The main accolade I can pay them is that even when going in the system after some much more expensive (and indeed physically intimidating) competition, they are never a let down and often actually serve to highlight what many speakers expensive, cheap, big, small, ported or whatever are missing. Sheer musical ability. For that these are a 10/10 . . . the rest, it doesn't really matter when you hear them!
Hi Chris, interesting connection to the woofer, not seen that done before. Perhaps consider returning the pig-tails to the terminals and solder to to them where they protrude through which is essentially what you have now but will be securely anchored. Peace of mind.
I understand you are in the experimental stage and urge you to try the new caps you have bought. The Solen caps are reliable and give no trouble but sound rather pedestrian by comparison. Some guys don't realise that caps definitely do all sound different and that is the reason for change, not only because the original is failing.
Once you have chosen your preferred cap I suggest supporting it to avoid vibration and metal fatigue of the leads. Mount it near the terminal block or near the tweeter. A glob of hot-melt glue or silicone adhesive to attach it to the back of the tweeter magnet works well.
What wire have you got there? I would also just use a single wire to the tweeter, easier to solder for one and I have found that a single solid strand OCC copper wire of about 24AWG sounds very clean and detailed.
The push-on brass terminals are crappy. They are the crappiest crap for a quality long term connection and are widely used. One of the reasons for the ubiquity of these abominations in the industry is mainly to speed up production and reduce costs. The harnesses are pre-made at a seperate station which saves the boxes from being cycled again for the job of hand soldering. It's time consuming and somebody has to get paid. They are fine however for use on cars etc. but not for audio. Some guys go to great lengths to improve all contacts by using contact cleaners and/or enhancers with people on this site claiming audible improvements. By soldering direct you have a long lasting consistently good copper to copper connection without a piece of brass in between.
https://www.bluesea.com/resources/108/Electrical_Conductivity_of_Materials/
The link shows brass to have an IACS of only 28% :( compared to copper which as the reference is 100%. Some brass terminals are first Nickel plated, rated at only 7% to 22% :eek: because it polishes up well and allows the gold plating to look nice and smooth and shiny.
This brings us to another important area, the speaker terminals, of which the vast majority are brass, nickel and gold sitting right in the signal path doing nasty things to your precious sound. My workaround is to bring the internal speaker wires to the outside of the box and terminate to FUREZ pure unplated copper spades. With the identical spades on the speaker wires they can be placed back to back and the existing speaker posts used merely as a clamp.
I do the same on my amps and use the cheapest 8mm speaker terminals available. I would prefer nylon nuts and bolts but not strong enough. Of course this surgery or butchery is not for most but for those who DIY why not enjoy the improvement?
I see you have boldly been assured that the removal of the brass lugs, new wire and new caps will do nothing. I disagree. Strongly.
https://i.imgur.com/VmfvxFD.jpg
I for one have never, ever been able to discern the sound of good caps. Unless you listen with a switch for instant comparison at the same level, any judgement has to be biased. And ask someone to do the switchover for you!
My big Cabasses’ crossovers make exclusive use of Solens and I can assure you that pedestrian is not a word I’d use about their sound – they’re fast and incredibly dynamic sounding things.
But then they have a good 95 dB/1W/1metre sensitivity.
As for binding posts, I like to use good soldered banana plugs, although leaving the copper bare is probably a good short-term method too (say for a few months).
Keep up the good work and go on experimenting!
If they didn't use fancy capacitors in the studio equipment that made the recording, how can you possibly get back what is already lost by inserting fancy capacitors into the playback equipment?
Correct: the fancy Studer and Neve mixing boards use tons of 5534’s and electrolytic caps on the audio signal. Nothing fancy.
There are loads of myths and placebos in hi-fi circles. Do try the switch test and be amazed. I’d put my money on the result.
That said, there are truly awful components too, most of them coming from China, whose entire economy is based on fake or counterfeit products. Big factories that employ thousands to make that s…t.
But I digress!
I suppose if you allow for the theory that caps can sound different then you can at least flavour the sound by changing them, and if you prefer the change in the sound it's an 'improvement.'
I have my doubts Paul. It’s a theory as you say.
@macca, sure once the sound is finalised in the studio then that is it, however, we are not trying to get back what is lost but simply attempting to minimise any damage. This applies to everything, not just caps!
@chartz, "I for one have never, ever been able to discern the sound of good caps. Unless you listen with a switch for instant comparison at the same level, any judgement has to be biased"
Therein lies your problem perhaps. Rather listen to the different caps for maybe a week or longer to get a true feel for what they are doing. Rapid switching just confuses the comparison.
You also state that the Solens are fast and dynamic. How do you know? :) By your own disclosure you can't hear the difference.
I didn’t say that Charles. I said that my speakers which have loads of them sound that way!
Differences should be heard instantly.
Waiting for a week doesn’t make any sense.
I don’t have any problems by the way, I’m happy to steer clear of all that audiophile nonsense, that’s all.
I got a bit bored this morning so read the whole of this thread.
My 2 cents.
Ali hit the nail on the head, a 1.5uF cap will give a crossover frequency of around 13kHz for an 8 ohm tweeter and 26kHz for 4 ohm.
So we are presuming its an 8 ohm tweeter with a corner frequency (-3dB) of 13kHz for the XO and -9dB at 6.5Khz.
I read two reviews that suggested the full range driver started to roll off above 10kHz. It's a fair assumption that it would be -3dB at 13kHz to marry with the tweeter XO slope.
The tweeters contribution will be small, but still well within the audible range of most of us old farts.
Interesting as all of this is, its not really addressing the question that was asked, about cap choice.
To me, you wont really hear the tweeter output on its own, within the audible range of most of us, as the caps attenuation curve doesn't level till well above 20kHz. It will only be present at a reduced level, adding a little sparkle to the combined output with the full range driver - Which makes sense.
Because of this, the series cap choice is not going to make a big difference to the sound, compared to say a tweeter cap in a three way design, crossing at 5 or 6kHz.
Some of the OP's suggestions for caps are quite large and expensive, which I would stay clear of in this application, as I don't feel the audible difference, if any, warrants that amount of expenditure.
I've always found the basic Solen to sound a little grainy at the top.
A Mundorf Supreme would do fine, as would the Jantzen Superior Z-Cap.
I use the Jantzen in a three way design with a Yamaha Beryllium dome tweeter and in that application it sounds to me, just slightly better than the Mundorf at the very top frequencies, but not by much. In the OP's application I doubt anyone would hear a difference between them.
I wouldn't go any further up the price range than either of these two, due to the parts limited contribution to the overall sound of the speakers.
Hello everyone.
I'm working on upgrading a pair of Radford Monitor speakers crossovers.
In the process I'm adding a super-tweeter to the setup and turn them into Radford Auditorium model (they share the same FN7/5 crossover schematic, they just need an inductor and a 0.47uf cap aded to the existing crossover in order to enable the HF2 terminal).
I bought the following replacement capacitors from willys-hifi.com:
8x Mundorf ECap AC 8uf 70V Bipolar Electrolytic Capacitor - PLAIN
https://willys-hifi.com/products/mundorf-ecap-ac-8uf-70v-bipolar-electrolytic-capacitor-plain?variant=42037499265279
4 x Mundorf ECap AC 4uf 70V Bipolar Electrolytic Capacitor - PLAIN
https://willys-hifi.com/products/mundorf-ecap-ac-4uf-70v-bipolar-electrolytic-capacitor-plain?variant=42037209596159
4 x Mundorf MCap EVO Oil 0.47uf 450V Capacitor
https://willys-hifi.com/products/mundorf-mcap-evo-oil-0-47uf-450v-capacitor?variant=51344326867
I bought the 4 "Mundorf EVO Oil" only because I couldn't find the "Mundorf E Cap" in 0.47uf.
I'm no expert but I presumed that splashing more money on caps for such old drivers won't make much of a difference.
Now I got a few questions regarding these capacitors:
1. I've measured all of them with the multimeter.
The 8uf Mundorf ECap measure in the region of 9.2uf (15%)
The 4uf Mundorf ECap read around 4.92uf (23%)
The 0.47uf Mundorf MCap Evo Oil measured 0.465 (>1%)
I wonder if this is normal given that the tolerance on the Mundorf ECap is stated -/+5% and they measure between 15% respectively 20%.
2. I was wondering if someone could have a look at the diagram and let me know if I got the A - Z ends of the Evo Oil caps right as I've read somone saying that "even though film caps are non polarised, the outside of the foil should be connected to the low Z side of the circuit." I get that the A stands for the entrance point of the electrical current (binding posts / amplifier signal) whereas Z stands for the exit point and lower power meaning towards the speaker drivers?
Many thanks!
3053330534
walpurgis
06-09-2022, 18:12
How did you establish that a supertweeter is required? Many Radford speakers employed the Goodmans DT3 tweeter that responds up to 22kHz.
There is no Goodmans DT3 in this configuration and the stated frequency range is 45Hz-15,5kHz ±3dB
https://www.radiomuseum.org/r/radford_monitor.html
Radford Monitor has the following drivers:
Kef B139 6171
Goodmans mids driver (also used in Goodmans Maxim "M range" speaker)
Celestion HF1300
Auditorium and Studio models also have a super-tweeter either Telephones or Coles 4001G
https://www.radiomuseum.org/r/radford_monitor.html
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