Denafrips terminator 2 dac [Archive] - The Art of Sound Forum

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Bigbird

05-06-2021, 10:23

Hi all hope you’re well? Been a while .

Just wanted to say that I’ve had the terminator 2 for several days now and I have to say I am now at last very impressed . My mission when looking for a dac was to find something that got pretty close to my analogue front end .

Digital has always been a bit fatiguing for me as I found it unnatural ,sibilant, glaring , sharp etc so I was really happy when finding out that the R2R dacs were back with a bang .

Upon plug in and power up I was really underwhelmed ,gutted actually. I thought shit I’ve made a really expensive mistake here . It was muddy ,bloated , bass heavy a bit sharp and sibilant and no way near my vinyl levels, not even close . But it was fresh out the box so I knew I had to give it some hours to burn in and relax a little.

I left it on none stop with playlists from Spotify playing through it quietly and constantly for 4 days solid and forgot about it while I was busy with work and renovations . During that time I added playback software and adjusted some settings too and had a little listen every once in a while to see if things were improving. And to my relief , they were .

Fast forward to now and I haven’t played it for 48hrs due to other commitments so I’m up around the 100hr mark and Christ it’s like a different machine. Man has it opened up and settled down. I’m listening to Miles Davis kind of blue 50th anniversary SACD FLAC and I have to say that it’s so close to my analogue rig now that You can hardly tell the difference . There are of course some differences, and the dac has some ground to gain. Sonically the dac has more low end weight and punch , the vinyl a touch airier and open , but as a whole the level of playback is almost up there with a serious TT and phono combo and the beauty of it is... it’s sounds analogue . None of those annoying digital traits that always put me off investing in the format .

I can’t wait to add a streamer and digital cable and do away with the noisy laptop/USB combo. I’m sure we will unlock more sounds and who knows ,could it beat my TT?? We will have to see about that. I will always buy and play vinyl till the day I end up in a box but sometimes you just want to stick something on without the faff . This has solved the problem big time

So did I find a dac that can mix it with my analogue gear without being fatiguing. The answer is yes. I’d say that’s mission accomplished

Highly recommended chaps. It’s fuckin bonkers good

I’ve added a little imgur clip so you can hear for yourselves . When the horn kicks in around 30seconds I had to go and change my underpants .

Cheers

Karl

https://imgur.com/a/KVBhSKo

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Filterlab

05-06-2021, 15:13

It’s fuckin bonkers good

That's the sentence for me. :)

Glad you're pleased. Digital has come a long way in 40+ years that's for sure. A decent source, a decent player, a decent DAC and some decent cabling makes pure, convenient audio magic possible.

Bigbird

05-06-2021, 22:05

That's the sentence for me. :)

Glad you're pleased. Digital has come a long way in 40+ years that's for sure. A decent source, a decent player, a decent DAC and some decent cabling makes pure, convenient audio magic possible.

Haha I was trying to be all smart with my audio talk leading up to that but the real me came out at the end there [emoji23][emoji85]

It really has come a long way. It’s only the last 18 months or so that I’ve started to find it bearable and comparable to my analogue

Next I will be looking at a streamer to extract some more magic from it . Possibly the nova fidelity X50D. That seems to tick all of the boxes.

It’s definitely going to change my listening habits that’s for sure and probably be a lot cheaper in the long run too . It cost just over half of what my TT ,cart and phono combo did and Downloads are free (if you’re naughty) so it represent good value once your setup. I spend fortunes on records . I will probably be a bit more picky with which ones I buy now

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clap

05-06-2021, 22:27

Bigbird

05-06-2021, 22:32

I had EXACTLY the same panic when I first switched on my Termi (1), luckily after 100 hours or so it started to fly and continues improving for perhaps another 100 hours thereafter. I have no desire to upgrade / change it. In many ways it sounds better than my analogue rig (Gyorbe / Moerch / Zyx Airy 3), that's often due to poorly pressed vinyl mind you.

A warm sounding quality mains cable helps with the Termi imo (gold plated plugs).

That’s reassuring mate . Christ if it gets any better I will be offloading my 700 records [emoji23]just kidding I would never do that.

I have some nice cables and a mains conditioner and my amps are ultra low distortion (0.002%) so it’s really extracting everything the termy puts out. It’s been a real eye opener that’s for sure

Have you got the updated DSP in your terminator?

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StanleyB

05-06-2021, 22:40

I have some nice cables and a mains conditioner and my amps are ultra low distortion (0.002%) so it’s really extracting everything the termy puts out.
Ultra low distortion like that means the use of feedback to keep the distortion of a steady state signal, such as a sinewave, low. The downside that is that harmonics in the actual audio content can easily be washed out by the feedback circuit in the amp.

Bigbird

05-06-2021, 22:56

Ultra low distortion like that means the use of feedback to keep the distortion of a steady state signal, such as a sinewave, low. The downside that is that harmonics in the actual audio content can easily be washed out by the feedback circuit in the amp.

Not too sure about the technical ins and outs mate but all I can say is that there is certainly no sign of that happening here .The Neurochrome 686 is one of the best amps I’ve ever heard at any price and I’m sure Tom has considered this in his design???

The Bigbottle/Angus phonomac designed unity gain buffer just lets the signal through . They’ve both been staggeringly good additions to my setup. Destroyed my Croft 25rs and 7r monoblocks whilst being true to the recording . Very happy with the purchases

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clap

05-06-2021, 23:31

That’s reassuring mate . Christ if it gets any better I will be offloading my 700 records [emoji23]just kidding I would never do that.

I have some nice cables and a mains conditioner and my amps are ultra low distortion (0.002%) so it’s really extracting everything the termy puts out. It’s been a real eye opener that’s for sure

Have you got the updated DSP in your terminator?

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Nope. I did think after it was released that I'd order it. But I just haven't felt the need, which speaks volumes. I should order it just to see. Glad your mains is sorted. It makes a big difference imo.

Bigbird

05-06-2021, 23:39

Nope. I did think after it was released that I'd order it. But I just haven't felt the need, which speaks volumes. I should order it just to see. Glad your mains is sorted. It makes a big difference imo.

Apparently it’s big step forward and for $250 it’s a fairly cheap upgrade mate I this Hifi world so worth a try

Completely agree about mains . Really helps with a blacker background IME

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Wakefield Turntables

06-06-2021, 08:14

Bigbird

06-06-2021, 08:21

I've still not plumped for a new DAC. Every month seems to see the release of a new "final solution" DAC only to find the following month something else crops up. I will just sit on the fence for a bit longer.

I’ve had a very interesting day here playing around with things and all I can say is I now think this is better than my analogue rig. Seriously

I just don’t think my cartridge (Art 9) is good enough to extract this level of sound. I think I will have to make a serious step up to get this level of playback.

It’s scary to think that I will get more from this when I do away with the laptop and get a proper streamer . Not sure the TT will be able to catch up if that happens as my wallet doesn’t allow for it

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Wakefield Turntables

06-06-2021, 08:27

Bigbird

06-06-2021, 08:32

Just remember that you TT can still play all those rare slabs of vinyl, a DAC would have a pretty hard job doing that! I'm very happy for you that your journey continues to be fruitful. I've less than 100 CD's and just can't be bothered with the whole digital frontier, so the whole digital "thing" will just have to wash over me. Maybe I might change my mind one day.

Yeah don’t get me wrong I have always collected vinyl and always will do . I’ve probably got about 700 or so maybe more if I’d counted them in recent years but I feel like they will be getting a lot less use now that I can get better sound at the click of a button .

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StanleyB

06-06-2021, 08:50

I've still not plumped for a new DAC. Every month seems to see the release of a new "final solution" DAC only to find the following month something else crops up. I will just sit on the fence for a bit longer.

That's why I have stuck to my current design, the Caiman SEG. It has it's critics, but the majority of owners are happy that it is more about the audio output, than about features like gold plated screws. You should give one a try.

StanleyB

06-06-2021, 08:52

Just remember that you TT can still play all those rare slabs of vinyl, a DAC would have a pretty hard job doing that! I'm very happy for you that your journey continues to be fruitful. I've less than 100 CD's and just can't be bothered with the whole digital frontier, so the whole digital "thing" will just have to wash over me. Maybe I might change my mind one day.

You can stick an ADC after the phono pre-amp, and before the DAC. You can then play your vinyl through the DAC. I now of many users who do exactly that with my DAC.

Filterlab

06-06-2021, 09:43

You can stick an ADC after the phono pre-amp, and before the DAC. You can then play your vinyl through the DAC. I now of many users who do exactly that with my DAC.

I was just going to suggest the same thing. A DAC these days is more commonly used as a digital pre-amp; that's how I used mine, although I'm fully in the digital domain on my main system.

It's darned convenient.

Macca

06-06-2021, 10:33

I was just going to suggest the same thing. A DAC these days is more commonly used as a digital pre-amp; that's how I used mine, although I'm fully in the digital domain on my main system.

It's darned convenient.

It is but I've found that it depends on the power amp as to whether it works well or not. Some of my power amps sound better with a buffer between them and the DAC and at least one sounds best only with a conventional analogue pre-amp in between.

Firebottle

06-06-2021, 11:53

Filterlab

06-06-2021, 11:56

It is but I've found that it depends on the power amp as to whether it works well or not. Some of my power amps sound better with a buffer between them and the DAC and at least one sounds best only with a conventional analogue pre-amp in between.

You are quire correct. That's why I have the valve buffer, makes a lot of difference to the warmth and musicality. It's all about the inter-component harmony. :)

Wakefield Turntables

06-06-2021, 12:21

Andy there is a Musician Pegasus R-2R dac for sale on the Wam atm, for £600.
Grab that and you won't be disappointed.

Thanks. That £600 is probably going to go into something VALVE based. :D

Bigbird

08-06-2021, 00:31

StanleyB

08-06-2021, 07:24

Ok so just a quick update now I approach the 150hrs mark.

My vinyl has been spanked [emoji26]

Just don’t think my cartridge is able to dig this level of retrieval out .

I might need a substation upgrade to get this level of performance.

My god what an eye opener

But what about the musicality though? I got suckered into the detail retrieval bit for quite some years when I started designing DACs, and lost a lot of valuable time doing only that. But when I came up with the Dorado sound enhancer I realized that I had given musicality very little consideration. I don't just want to hear the guitarist touching the strings. I want to hear and feel the emotion of him/her doing that. Are you experiencing the same emotions from the DAC as you get from your vinyl? Or is your style of music not really into emotions, but more geared towards raw delivery?

Bigbird

08-06-2021, 08:05

But what about the musicality though? I got suckered into the detail retrieval bit for quite some years when I started designing DACs, and lost a lot of valuable time doing only that. But when I came up with the Dorado sound enhancer I realized that I had given musicality very little consideration. I don't just want to hear the guitarist touching the strings. I want to hear and feel the emotion of him/her doing that. Are you experiencing the same emotions from the DAC as you get from your vinyl? Or is your style of music not really into emotions, but more geared towards raw delivery?

It has bags of musicality

And it’s amazing how analogue this dac sounds . It’s not like many others I’ve heard . Only a handful of dacs I’ve heard do what this does . It has a smoothness and vinyl like presentation but without taking away from music.

Some dacs are voiced one way or another, either warm or ohyper detailed which can be almost cold and sharp but this has something special where it manages to tick all of the boxes . It has lots of detail but without being harsh, it has tremendous bass weight without feeling unnatural and it’s completely engaging. It keeps you locked into your seat wondering how the hell it sounds so good . Not an ounce of fatigue or glare

No wonder you can’t find any bad reviews about these new terminators .

I’ve been a hardcore vinyl man for ever but this has completely changed my perception of digital . It’s that good . It does everything my vinyl does, and some but without all the faff . Put it this way , I usually play a couple of records a night and the only records I’ve played all week was to compare against the terminator and they got shown the door . The rest of my playback has been digital and I’m not feeling like I’m missing anything at all

It’s bittersweet for me really as I’ve spent the last 5-10 years really getting my vinyl setup to a high a level as I can afford and this dac has come and trampled on it In the space of a week .

Hopefully my phono upgrades and a new cart can close the gap

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Firebottle

08-06-2021, 08:14

Stanley if you haven't heard a modern R-2R dac you are not realising how analogue they are now sounding.

Denafrips, Musician, Soekris (with the right psu) are all now spanking vinyl playback. I can only imagine how good the sound is that Karl is hearing, as his dac is very near TOTL.
I have a Musician Pegasus and that is lacking nothing in musicality and emotion in the playback.

Good one Karl. My vinyl has taken a step closer now I have a new TT, the performance of my Dynavector cart is now being shown.

StanleyB

08-06-2021, 09:17

I have a not so poor customer who bought an expensive R-2-R DAC in April. He has been using a modded SEG for a year now. Several weeks of listening to the two in a system costing upwards of £30K has shown the R-2-R to have an edge in some areas, but a terrible disappointment in others. The main downfall was its playback of high resolution files of 96kHz and 192kHz. It was brilliant at 44.1kHz though.
On an equal note, a well known and respected former member of this forum bought a SEG for a laugh just last month. His speakers alone cost more than 100x than the SEG. I won't mention the brand name of his speakers and amp since that might give his identity away. He emailed me to say that its a keeper and has commissioned the design of a high-end no cost spared power supply to power the Dorado.

Macca

08-06-2021, 11:15

Compared R-2R DAC to two Delta Sigma DACs last month. Did not hear any lack of musicality or emotion, did not hear any added musicality or emotion.

They were, to all intents and purposes, almost identical in performance. The very slight differences were only occasional and were nothing to do with musicality or emotion and may well not even exist at all outside of my own perception.

struth

08-06-2021, 11:24

ive heard people say delta sigma sabre dacs are glarey.. ive not experienced this. The one in my Pathos is very good..and only a relatively old type now.. ESS sabre 9018K2M. its implemented well and the whole machine is a treat to use(as it should be at its price.

Lawrence001

08-06-2021, 18:23

I've had 3, struggled with 2 but the third one (Breeze Audio, using original ESS9018 non k2m) is a keeper. No sign of the digital glare from the first two. I guess it's a matter of implementation.

Lawrence001

08-06-2021, 18:34

His speakers alone cost more than 100x than the SEG. I won't mention the brand name of his speakers and amp since that might give his identity away.

You can rule me out anyway [emoji38]

RockAddict

14-06-2021, 16:46

>>>snip<<<

Next I will be looking at a streamer to extract some more magic from it . Possibly the nova fidelity X50D. That seems to tick all of the boxes.
>>>snip<<<

Just a thought...

With the Terminator 2 (Plus?) already in the system, is the NF X50D overkill? I have a Bluesound Node 2i (new model available - gen 3 / N130) hooked up to a Denafrips Pontus II and the overall setup has made listening to music the most enjoyable I can ever recall. Doubtless the amp is a factor but I'm still impressed by the Node 2i / Pontus II.

If the ripper is important, then the Node (gen 3) isn't going to cut it but, otherwise, if there is sufficient connectivity, it's a snip at £550ish. The app (BluOS) isn't perfect but it is decent and, usually, reliable. I previously had a NAD C 658 (pre / streamer / DAC) but much prefer the Node 2i / Pontus II combo.

End of "just a thought...".