Accuphase e212 or Accuphase e211 or Krell 400xi?

[RoboCopper]

Hi,
Which one of these I should for best sound?
Accuphase e212 or e211 or Krell 400xi?
All are obtainable for the similar price.
I am looking for open, wide soundstage, pronounced mids, fast, tight bass, clean treble. Musical amp for longer listening too.

Any info is appreciated.

[DSJR]

The krell I think, especially if it's a used one 'cos the second hand value plummets nicely to its true new US value (around £1200-1300). The 400xi eats a Naim for breakfast, although the latter sells because it's a Naim :steam:

Accuphase (and current Luxman) amps all seem to me all be fur coat and no knickers - beautiful and lavishly specified with that legendary build and "feel," but sounding very uninspiring compared to UK home grown amps like a Rega Elicit, LFD or Croft, let alone a Sugden.....

Just my views, of course ;) but ask HiFi dave, as he's had 'em all at some point...

[RoboCopper]

So you are suggesting Krell 400xi over Accuphase e2xx?
Which one has tighter bass? Which one has more pronounced mids?
How do I ask HiFi Dave? :)

Thanks for input

[John]

As always best to hear in your system
Sorry not very helpful I know

[RoboCopper]

Yes, we both know, but sometimes it is not possible when you have too many choices :)

[DSJR]

PM hifi dave on here, or phone him at Radlett Audio -

http://www.radlettaudio.co.uk/equipment.html

Like most here, I have no way of measuring these amps, but Krell have always designed their amps to cope well with low impedance loads, allowing good current flow. Over the previous 300 model, there was more natural warmth and no "clinical" quality which the 300 could suffer from if the interconnects weren't just right.

I have no idea where you're going to hear new Accuphase stuff these days [edit - AMPS] in the UK, but by experience, it's a bit of a mugs eyeful - not a bad product by any means, but certainly aspirational/cachet based rather than a truly high achiever comensurate with the looks, finish, feel and especially price. Indeed, from recent memory, Krell sells for almost double the US prices in the UK and has a certain cachet accordingly.

I can't be more specific, but there are decent audio items and lavish, luxury audio items and the two aren't always compatible. As much of the pleasure of luxury stuff is the pleasure of owning it and the feeling that you have something few others can afford.

You know, you won't believe me, but I reckon the top Cambridge power amp at £1200 or so would comfortably out-perform all of them, the gentle presentation being as much a lack of "edgy" distortions rather than a characteristic of "tone."

For a great expensive option that should really achieve, then Manley or EAR (well known) or Tube Distinctions (known by a select few :)) would be where I'd look (PM Anthony TD to see what he has to offer)...

[RoboCopper]

Thanks for the infos, will have to do some further research on specified brands and models.
I also contacted Dave, so thanks for that advice as well :)

[The Grand Wazoo]

Accuphase (and current Luxman) amps all seem to me all be fur coat and no knickers - beautiful and lavishly specified with that legendary build and "feel," but sounding very uninspiring compared to UK home grown amps like a Rega Elicit, LFD or Croft, let alone a Sugden.....
...............but by experience, it's a bit of a mugs eyeful - not a bad product by any means, but certainly aspirational/cachet based rather than a truly high achiever comensurate with the looks, finish, feel and especially price........
I can't be more specific, but there are decent audio items and lavish, luxury audio items and the two aren't always compatible. As much of the pleasure of luxury stuff is the pleasure of owning it and the feeling that you have something few others can afford.

Well, not in reference to amplifiers, but when auditioning many different CD players several years ago I chose the one I thought sounded closest to my idea of real music. My second criteria was how it was built - I tend to keep components for a long time and expect them to work when I switch them on.

Not because of how it felt or looked (I actually dislike gold coloured hi-fi).
And most certainly not because of the price tag or how I felt it would make me feel about myself or how others perceived me.

I preferred the Accuphase for how it sounded, both in a dealers system and on a week long home loan. My wife preferred it for reasons of sound quality too, so we bought it.

Dave, I bow to your great experience and knowledge but sometimes you have an incredibly frustrating way of belittling equipment that just doesn't seem to have worked for you, for whatever reason. If you don't like it, why can't you just say it's not for you? If you were actively in the trade today, would you not suggest that Mr RoboCopper should have a listen for himself to try & decide?

[Steve Toy]

I've yet to hear an Accuphase amp do tight and fast bass except into the speaker loads that a decent valve amp could cope with and probably do better.

I agree that they do timing and coherence rather well - it's in the name and the mids tend to be superb.

[Nick]

Sounds to me like the Krell would fit the bill for the attributes you are seeking.

However I also disagree with Dave regarding Accuphase/Luxman amplifiers.

For one thing the current Luxman amplifiers are a whole different kettle of fish to the Accuphase models.

The Accuphase range majors, IMO, on natural sound albeit lacking that hi-fi punch that so many seem to crave. To my ears they do exhibit a slight bass tubbiness which may line up with Steve's observation. This doesn't detract from the lovely midband and natural treble.

The Luxmans, I speak here of the class A jobbies, are slightly more vivid than the Accuphase equivalents with a tighter bass. Still with that open midband and natural treble. They are also way more powerful than the specs would lead you to believe, although as they go beyond the Class A cited spec I believe they drift into Class A/B.

One thing they do both offer is useable tone controls, shock horror :lol:

The Krell sound to me is more immediately impressive but, for me, over the long term that trick soon wears off.

Incidentally I don't think the smaller integrateds are specced to deal with difficult loads as well as the behemoths further up the range.

I have owned Krell in the past and currently have a Luxman L-550 AII.

I do agree with Dave in that the Krell 400 is much less clinical than the 300, looks nicer too.

I guess it depends what you are looking for and the best way is to try before you buy.

As always YMMV

[DSJR]

Speak to HiFi dave, he had a clients brand new Luxman amp annihilated by a Croft Micro25/Series 7 just a few weeks ago... Client apparently agreed and was rather confused how a couple of cheap looking black boxes could sound so much better than his beautifully crafted Luxman

We're talking AMPS, not CD players, ok? I don't believe my comments were to do with Accuphase CD players and I apologise if you thought they were.


Nick, have you heard the 400Xi? It doesn't sound as "tense" or "forced" as bigger Krells sometimes could and there's absolutely no harshness, which plagued the old KAV series..

What I was clumsily trying to suggest is that people like Anthony TD could probably supply an amp which wipes them all at similar money and luxury finish and Glenn Croft could supply something fantastic in plain boxes for around £1500 to £2600 or thereabouts..

[Nick]

Speak to HiFi dave, he had a clients brand new Luxman amp annihilated by a Croft Micro25/Series 7 just a few weeks ago... Client apparently agreed and was rather confused how a couple of cheap looking black boxes could sound so much better than his beautifully crafted Luxman

We're talking AMPS, not CD players, ok? I don't believe my comments were to do with Accuphase CD players and I apologise if you thought they were.


Nick, have you heard the 400Xi? It doesn't sound as "tense" or "forced" as bigger Krells sometimes could and there's absolutely no harshness, which plagued the old KAV series..

What I was clumsily trying to suggest is that people like Anthony TD could probably supply an amp which wipes them all at similar money and luxury finish and Glenn Croft could supply something fantastic in plain boxes for around £1500 to £2600 or thereabouts..

Hi Dave

Yes, I have heard the 400Xi and I agree with you it not like the old KAVs, this point I mentioned in my original answer.

I would respond by asking if you have heard the current Luxman Class A amplifiers ?

It's all about application, I think, but to suggest that the Luxman amps are all show and no substance is wide of the mark. There are areas where my 550 shows the Yamamoto how it's done. My experience is that it's dangerous making blanket "wipe the floor" statements when the results in different circumstances might be reversed. ;)

It also has to be taken into account that not everybody wants a system that looks like a school science project :lolsign:

[hifi_dave]

I know what Dave is on about and you have to appreciate that he has had a tremendous amount of 'high end' audio kit through his hands over the years and a lot of it isn't really that good !!!

A lot of us have experienced the beautifully made, superbly finished, stunning looking, high end box of tricks that you just cant stop fondling and for that to be blown away by an ugly, cheap looking item at a fraction of the cost. It happens time and time again and is one of the 'joys' of Hi-Fi, I guess.

Having said that, the pride of ownership does come into it and if you've several grand weighing down your pockets, it is the beautiful box with the silky controls and power meters which is going to attract you. Where's the joy in placing a tinny black box on your hi-fi rack, even if it sounds better ?

This is all so subjective and the OP really should make an attempt to hear the amps in question. How else can he make a valid choice which suits him, his system and his room ?

[DSJR]

I'd add that Naim didn't get to where they are now (probably one of the biggest UK audio manufacturers) by slick controls or well finished good looks. back in the day, the 12S/120 could totally obliterate so many huge and expensive Japanese and US concoctions and that's why we at KJ took the agency on in 1977.

The OP is going to spend a load of dosh on a "statement" amplifier brand. I'd echo the sentiments here that he MUST see if he can get to hear them (and possibly a good STABLE valve amp like an EAR 599)...

[DSJR]

The Audio warehouse list on here suggests they have a Krell KAV400Xi for £1400 with a warranty?

Good amp IMO at a very good price if it's in good condition with box etc...

[jandl100]

In my opinion, there are so many amp choices out there that it's not really in your own interests to limit yourself to just the three listed.

Given that choice though ... I haven't heard a current Accuphase, but I have owned a Krell 400xi - the sound is a bit on the smooth, warm and gently coloured (rose tinted?) side of things. If you want to capture the full excitement and pizzaz of music then you need to look elsewhere, imho. But it has good power and control, and decent rez, and won't get fatiguing for long listening sessions.

I have owned a vintage Accuphase E202 ... very nicely musical and a pleasure to listen to. A bit 'safe' sounding, but none the worse for that, really!

Luxman has been mentioned by some folks, above. I've not heard a current Luxman amp at home, but in other systems I have heard they are a bit clinical and with a bit of an etched top-end which doesn't suit some folks. Almost the opposite to the Krell 400xi sound, really.

If it were me, I'd certainly add a valve amp or two to my shopping list. You may be pleasantly surprised at the bass control you can get, and often enough the mids and top have a realistic 'palpability' that solid state does not often manage.

IMO. YMMV. :)

[DSJR]

I think Jerry is our resident expert on user-reviews as he's had a good many good products through his hands... :)

The apparent gentleness of the 400Xi is infinitely preferable to the almost harsh "solid state" nature of the previous model IMO and from experience of the FPB 200 and 300 we had at the same time, this tonal quality was generic to the whole family of Krells of the period.

I really love the EAR599 for its "gentle giant" qualities, a huge pity it's so terribly expensive these days.