View Full Version : Tannoy or not to be?
In the last hour I have learnt that Tannoy has closed it's factory in the UK and has pulled out of European distribution, not good for those involved :(
strange decision really i'd have thought.
walpurgis
14-05-2021, 14:25
More lucrative markets elsewhere I expect. Money always points the way things go.
More lucrative markets elsewhere I expect. Money always points the way things go.
sure but those asian markets were always keen on british made gear.
Filterlab
14-05-2021, 14:55
sure but those asian markets were always keen on british made gear.
Perhaps they're going to move the British designers to Asia and reduce the costs associated with UK manufacture. Sound decision financially, not sure it'll be good for them in the long run though.
Wakefield Turntables
14-05-2021, 16:36
Great news for those who have vintage tannoy gear, maybe? Prices could increase higher. :rolleyes:
Ali Tait
14-05-2021, 17:42
Feel sorry for the people that work there.
Yeah, that's the overriding concern. However, they'll be a skilled workforce, so one would imagine will find gainful employment elsewhere within the audio industry.
As for modern Tannoy speakers, I think they've largely lost their way, from the genuinely groundbreaking and innovative designs produced by the company in their heyday (mostly when they were based in London), and when they succeeded in building a truly iconic brand.
These days, the biggest percentage of the designs I've heard from Tannoy have been disappointing, flattered to deceive, and like most high-end audio now, vastly overpriced for the performance on offer. But then I often struggle with the voicing of today's speakers and what is considered as an 'accurate sound', which for me isn't, at least musically.
Something is clearly amiss when you attend a show and hear the company's flagship model, costing almost £60k, and being both largely unimpressed or unwilling to swap them for your own, nearly 60-year old designs from the same company, and which by any barometer based on accuracy to the realistic sound of voices and instruments, are simply far superior.
Anyway, I'm sure that the far east market will still prove to be lucrative for the company, and which in recent times has been where the bulk of their business has come from, certainly sales of their 'classic' range of DCs, and so I wish them well for the future.
Marco.
hifinutt
14-05-2021, 21:50
Yes we have followed the auction of stuff from coatbridge , and the planning permission for housing development on the site . In a number of threads , sad news . I rather love my Eaton legacy built in Scotland, my wife is very upset tonight as I won't get a cat in case they get damaged....well one must get ones priorities right !!
Magna Audio
14-05-2021, 22:37
Yes we have followed the auction of stuff from coatbridge , and the planning permission for housing development on the site . In a number of threads , sad news . I rather love my Eaton legacy built in Scotland, my wife is very upset tonight as I won't get a cat in case they get damaged....well one must get ones priorities right !!Get a Ragdoll. They don't scratch at things, unless they look like scratching posts and you teach them too[emoji846]
Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk
hifinutt
15-05-2021, 17:59
https://www.worshipavl.com/details/66444-tannoy-site-swaps-cabinet-production-for-housing
from october last year
UNITED KINGDOM: Tannoy’s 44-year reign in Coatbridge is reaching the end of an era as an online consultation process detailing the construction of 60 houses on the factory site has come to light. Paloma Capital intends to develop the land currently occupied by the Tannoy factory by building a mixture of homes ranging from flats to detached houses. Since 1976, this hub of audio engineering excellence has delivered classic audio loudspeaker designs including the Prestige, Kingdom Royal and Definition hi-fi speakers in addition to the renowned CMS, Dreadnought, Dual Concentric and QFlex professional models.
Following an announcement made by Tannoy holding company the Music Group in April 2016 that operations would move to China, the writing has been on the wall for some time regarding the future of the Scottish operation. Although the company considered opening a new plant in the Strathclyde Business Park to develop a new line of units, stagnation followed. While the new site will create green space and a drainage pond in addition to the pedestrian-friendly development, the loss of the highly revered facility that assured “Made in the UK” status, together with 70 highly skilled engineers who were on the Tannoy payroll just four years ago, is a poor exchange.
https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/sad-day-for-coatbridge-tannoy-factory.249034/
Yeah, that's just what we need... Yet more rows of soulless, glorified 'doll's houses'!:doh:
Marco.
Yeah, that's just what we need... Yet more rows of soulless, glorified 'doll's houses'!:doh:
Marco.
And there's going to be a 'drainage pond' don't forget. Although I'm not sure how that's different to a regular pond.
Maybe they're putting in some Koi Carp?:hmm:
Marco.
More likely to end up full old bicycles and shopping trolleys.
Pigmy Pony
15-05-2021, 22:46
More likely to end up full old bicycles and shopping trolleys.
Judging by the quality of the wares being sold at a car boot sale I visited last week, there must have been several such ponds nearby.
Pigmy Pony
15-05-2021, 22:52
And there's going to be a 'drainage pond' don't forget. Although I'm not sure how that's different to a regular pond.
My understanding is that these 'drainage ponds are there to help new housing developments in the event of sudden and fierce downpours, so that the roads and houses don't get overwhelmed. It all drains into these ponds then exits to the sewers at leisure. if you look at any of these new build developments there are always man-made ponds nearby.
Of course someone might be having me on, but it did make sense.
My understanding is that these 'drainage ponds are there to help new housing developments in the event of sudden and fierce downpours, so that the roads and houses don't get overwhelmed. It all drains into these ponds then exits to the sewers at leisure. if you look at any of these new build developments there are always man-made ponds nearby.
Of course someone might be having me on, but it did make sense.
Right but any pond (except the ornamental type you build in your garden) is a result of water collecting in a low-lying area of ground. A place where water has drained to. So calling it a drainage pond is redundant, It's just a pond. See also: 'Deep cleaning' which is similar bullshit - something is either clean or it isn't!
Pigmy Pony
16-05-2021, 07:53
Right but any pond (except the ornamental type you build in your garden) is a result of water collecting in a low-lying area of ground. A place where water has drained to. So calling it a drainage pond is redundant, It's just a pond. See also: 'Deep cleaning' which is similar bullshit - something is either clean or it isn't!
I take your point about redundant descriptions, but I do think in the case of these ponds adding the word 'drainage' might be ok - Normally a pond is not man-made, and exists through the laws of physics, whereas a man-made pond has been put there specifically to aid drainage, not just in collecting drained water, but also disposing of it by way of an overflow system. Bit like a bath. So adding the word 'drainage' is describing its intended purpose.
Not that the ducks give a shit what we call it, and they're the ones that really matter :)
Think right name is sustainable drainage or retention ponds... often just grassy hollows, but sometimes a proper pond. Its because they are building in flood plains.. done right they are an aquatic home for wildlife i suppose, but its a dangerous habit, like building flood walls, as all you do is move the natural flood into an unnatural place.
Pigmy Pony
16-05-2021, 08:52
Think right name is sustainable drainage or retention ponds... often just grassy hollows, but sometimes a proper pond. Its because they are building in flood plains.. done right they are an aquatic home for wildlife i suppose, but its a dangerous habit, like building flood walls, as all you do is move the natural flood into an unnatural place.
Yeah, I doubt the developers give a toss about the bigger picture as long as their bit is ok.
The Black Adder
16-05-2021, 09:09
If they could still produce the original 12" and 15" Monitor Gold and Red drivers, I think they would be able to survive. But I fear the knowledge of making such units have long gone along with the source for the raw materials used back in the 60s. Buyouts do that...they get rid of the talent.
I agree with Marco, they have lost their way. And the styling is piss poor too... IMO, they sound as bad as they look. They look like something from a chintzy grannies front room. All they need is a doily and a pot of plastic tulips. But, that shows you what a different market likes. Personally, I think they should sack the designers first.
The only one I like is the Canterbury (with the grille on) but not it's £31k price tag.
The larger speakers are ridiculous money. Not heard any of the mass market speakers for a long time but when I did, the sound was more than unconvincing and were blown from the water with some Monitor Audio floor standers for not much more money.
The best set of tannoys I heard about a year ago were in a studio... pro series but from the late 80s early 90s.... Big sods with multiple drivers.
It's a shame but Tannoy have been hammering in their own coffin nails for years now.
You don't need talent to reproduce things that have already been designed, only to design new things. There's nothing on the reds and golds that can't be replicated. Tannoy's engineers considered the later drivers to be an improvement, although obviously that's something ultimately down to individual preference.
I agree that they do seem to have made a lot of poor decisions, or rather the group that owns them have. They should keep the premium products made in Britain and offer first class support and service, because that's what that market demands.
Same almost everywhere now, just a race to the bottom. That'll change with time though and it will swing back the other way.
Indeed, Jo, but that's the problem when you don't really cater for genuine enthusiasts and instead pander to those with more money than sense, and often taste (and that's not solely attributable to Tannoy, but widespread in the industry), therefore all you end up with are so-so sounding designs with rather dated styling (I'm referring here to their Prestige range), simply because the aesthetics appeal to the Jap market.
Like you say, the studio stuff is where it's at, but even some of that, IMO, doesn't have the 'magical sound' (if you like Tannoy DCs) of the old Monitor Series, Blacks through to Golds - it's a totally different type of sonic signature and way of reproducing music, and one that smacks you between the ears, not necessarily in a good way either, when you're used to the former, housed in proper cabinets (i.e Lockwood or similar), which whilst aren't 'pretty', are designed to optimise the performance of the drivers, for maximum SQ.
The best Tannoy DCs I've heard, other than my own, which I'm sure are very similar to yours, were a pair of Cooky's, which had TWIN 15" DCs, side-by-side in MASSIVE cabinets. the bass from which [playing UB40's Madame Medusa] would set off your sphincter and pop out a slippy one:eyebrows:, and Anthony's Kensington SEs, which are simply gorgeous/sound fantastic, but lack the 'heft' or scale of my Lockies, for obvious reasons.
I'd love to hear a pair of well-fettled Autographs, as I suspect they'd also hit the spot nicely, but haven't yet had the pleasure.
However, any of the stuff at shows has been deeply disappointing, as TBH, are the vast majority of new speakers I hear, which more often than not are a triumph of technology/bling over substance, and priced to appeal to (largely deaf) key-janglers, who buy on price (the notion that it's got to be stupidly expensive to be any good, and to have the necessary snob-factor), which again TBH, is what most of today's high-end audio industry is about, and just NOT my thing, hence why I rarely attend shows these days!
For me, it's no 'happy accident' that the best sounding systems I've heard, not just speakers, are those that have successfully combined the BEST of old AND new technology, not simply just all of either one or the other, and more often than not the BEST vintage speakers [really drivers], brought up to date with modern components (caps, resistors, etc) and housed in quality cabinets, designed to get the absolute best from them, driven by complimentary amps, trounce anything I've heard so far that's new.
However, as long as the high-end audio industry continues to shun genuine enthusiasts (essentially by pricing them out of the market) and continues to pander to those with more money than sense, who often wouldn't know what a good sound was if you knocked them over the head with it, standards won't improve and neither is their any future in it once all the monied old farts, buying that stuff, pop their clogs!;)
Marco.
You don't need talent to reproduce things that have already been designed, only to design new things. There's nothing on the reds and golds that can't be replicated.
I believe that Alnico magnets are key to the sound of the above, and which are no longer used or easily available, and have been replaced with (IMO, sonically inferior) rare-earth types.
Also light, paper cones (that react faster to music signals/transients), which were used to accompany the valve amps of the day, as opposed to the stiffer/heavier cones, brought in later with HPDs, to facilitate higher power handling with solid-state amps, and which don't react as fast to music signals, affecting SQ accordingly.
Both of those factors, for me (based on extensive listening experience), are the reasons why the older drivers sound best (if housed in the right cabinets), and so for those reasons I don't think could be made now.
Marco.
I believe that Alnico magnets are key to the sound of the above, and which are no longer used or easily available. Also light, paper cones (that react faster to music signals/transients), which were used to accompany the valve amps of the day, as opposed to the stiffer/heavier cones, brought in later with HPDs, to facilitate higher power handling with solid-state amps, and which don't react as fast to music signals.
Both of those factors, for me, are the reasons why the older drivers sound best (if housed in the right cabinets), and so for those reasons I don't think could be made now.
Marco.
my telefunkens are alnico and light paper.. :eyebrows:
...and also highly efficient!;) IMO, combined with complimentary amps, the most successful recipe for creating the best sound.
Sadly though, you've never heard them at their best with a *truly top-notch* valve amp. I suspect you'd wet your Dry-Nites if you heard them with the likes of my Copper amp!:eyebrows:
Marco.
...and also highly efficient!;) IMO, combined with complimentary amps, the most successful recipe for creating the best sound.
Sadly though, you've never heard them at their best with a *truly top-notch* valve amp. I suspect you'd wet your Dry-Nites if you heard them with the likes of my Copper amp!:eyebrows:
Marco.
yeah not heard the doubles with a valve amp.. they are indeed efficient at 96+.
I believe that Alnico magnets are key to the sound of the above, and which are no longer used or easily available, and have been replaced with (IMO, sonically inferior) rare-earth types.
Also light, paper cones (that react faster to music signals/transients), which were used to accompany the valve amps of the day, as opposed to the stiffer/heavier cones, brought in later with HPDs, to facilitate higher power handling with solid-state amps, and which don't react as fast to music signals, affecting SQ accordingly.
Both of those factors, for me (based on extensive listening experience), are the reasons why the older drivers sound best (if housed in the right cabinets), and so for those reasons I don't think could be made now.
Marco.
What I'm saying is that there's reason why those things could not be reversed engineered. I don't personally think Alnico is any better than ferrite and it has the disadvantage of losing it's magnetic field over time.
Stiffer cones were for higher power handling but making lighter cones isn't any harder. My guess is that there's not enough of a market for them to bother. Or, at least, they don't think there's any market for it. You might be right in that if they built it then buyers would appear for it.
What I'm saying is that there's reason why those things could not be reversed engineered. I don't personally think Alnico is any better than ferrite and it has the disadvantage of losing it's magnetic field over time.
Well, I have a different opinion on the latter, having also heard a similar thing with vintage phono cartridges.. Plus, if Alnico loses its magnetic field over time, I can't say it has 'hindered' my MGs in any way!;)
And if the effect isn't audible (or even meant to be), then it's a non-issue.
Stiffer cones were for higher power handling but making lighter cones isn't any harder. My guess is that there's not enough of a market for them to bother. Or, at least, they don't think there's any market for it. You might be right in that if they built it then buyers would appear for it.
I think the latter would be the case, but it would only be of appeal to a limited amount of enthusiasts - the diehards who can really appreciate the difference, and who own the right amps.
I believe one of the key reasons why, as good as they were, Ian's Canterburys never quite sounded like my Lockies (with 15 MGs), was the stiffer/heavier cones of the former's drivers, which to my ears (and others), in comparison. produced a somewhat opaque sound.
They just lacked the same 'lifelike' qualities [in comparison], and in essence, music just didn't 'breathe' to the same extent.
That's again one of the dangers for me of automatically presuming that 'newest is best', as I believe Ian (and many other Tannoy users) got sucked into that way of thinking, and that simply because Tannoy considered stiffer cones/bigger magnets as an 'improvement', it therefore MUST be!
When in reality, they were simply forced to move with the times, and the shift from valve amplification to SS [and with it] the demands of higher-power handling.
Marco.
Well, I have a different opinion on the latter, having also heard a similar thing with vintage phono cartridges.. Plus, if Alnico loses its magnetic field over time, I can't say it has 'hindered' my MGs in any way!;)
And if the effect isn't audible (or even meant to be), then it's a non-issue.
.
It's not at all a major issue it only happens when the speakers are driven to high levels and even then it will take a long time.
impossible to know if sound quality is affected unless you could compare against a set of drivers that were known to be at full strength.
Yeah, sure. The main point I was making though was the other stuff I wrote, especially in terms of too many folk assuming that just because a manufacturer - any manufacturer - announces a 'new improved range' (of whatever), that it's automatically going to be better (as in sounds better) than what preceded it.
The fact is, the motivation for creating the new range could've been driven by various factors, not all necessarily relating to sound quality.
It could simply have been a cost-cutting/profit maximising exercise, or forced upon them because a key component (or components) in the design, sourced from a third party, were no longer available/had been discontinued, or simply a change of fashion [what was deemed as most marketable], and so a rethink was needed.
In that situation, the older stuff might actually have been BETTER, and IME, often was!;)
Marco.
yeah and because youve just spent an extra 2k on a new version, doesnt mean it sounds better. a certain amount of money will help build quality, but most of it goes to make it look premium
Yeah, sure. The main point I was making though was the other stuff I wrote, especially in terms of too many folk assuming that just because a manufacturer - any manufacturer - announces a 'new improved range' (of whatever), that it's automatically going to be better (as in sounds better) than what preceded it.
The fact is, the motivation for creating the new range could've been driven by various factors, not all necessarily relating to sound quality.
It could simply have been a cost-cutting/profit maximising exercise, or forced upon them because a key component (or components) in the design, sourced from a third party, were no longer available/had been discontinued, or simply a change of fashion [what was deemed as most marketable], and so a rethink was needed.
In that situation, the older stuff might actually have been BETTER, and IME, often was!;)
Marco.
Yes that does happen.
yeah and because youve just spent an extra 2k on a new version, doesnt mean it sounds better. a certain amount of money will help build quality, but most of it goes to make it look premium
Indeed - bottom line is that they're running a BUSINESS; and businesses, one way or another, *need* to make a profit!
Marco.
Yes that does happen.
Yup, take your Krell for example, and also that of Ali Tait, and how they compare, sonically, with what the company's producing now... There's a valid reason why the older gear is often sought after;)
Sometimes manufacturers just hit upon the right recipe, and 'improvements' to such are, in actuality, a retrograde step - or designs are subject to a cost-cutting exercise.. But they won't want to tell you that!
Marco.
The Black Adder
17-05-2021, 11:30
I believe that Alnico magnets are key to the sound of the above, and which are no longer used or easily available, and have been replaced with (IMO, sonically inferior) rare-earth types.
Also light, paper cones (that react faster to music signals/transients), which were used to accompany the valve amps of the day, as opposed to the stiffer/heavier cones, brought in later with HPDs, to facilitate higher power handling with solid-state amps, and which don't react as fast to music signals, affecting SQ accordingly.
Both of those factors, for me (based on extensive listening experience), are the reasons why the older drivers sound best (if housed in the right cabinets), and so for those reasons I don't think could be made now.
Marco.
The fibers which were used in the original Golds and Reds are called Kapok fibers which can no longer be sourced. It's what makes the cones so agile. Saying that, if there was a will and more passion involved, I'm sure they could be sourced once again. But, as you said, Tannoy being Tannoy are simply in it for the masses and the money. But moving production out of the UK, especially for the top of the range studio and consumer market is a mistake.
Tannoy need to re-group and reach back to their innovations of the past and build on its legacy with more passion, becoming more niche rather than knocking out millions of uninspiring units.
afaik you can still get kapok, its from java mostly.. its not very popular these days tho. maybe not the stuff tannoy wanted of course
I used to have a military-style 'flack' jacket that was full of the stuff.
The Black Adder
18-05-2021, 07:10
I used to have a military-style 'flack' jacket that was full of the stuff.Lol... Is there something your not telling us, Barry... It's not everyday one adorns a flack jacket... Ex SAS man maybe?[emoji23]
Sent from my 9001X using Tapatalk
kapok's not bullet proof - there's a problem with terms here. Kapok stuffed vests were worn by anti aircraft gunners on ships in WW2 aka 'flack gunners' hence the name 'flack jacket'.
But it was intended as a flotation device in case they went overboard, it won't stop a round.
Up until the 1980s bullet poof vests were full of metal plates. I have worn one - it was bloody heavy! Not something you would wear for leisure activities, although the plates are removable so you can swap them out should one become damaged. No kapok in it.
sanchezxxx
19-05-2021, 00:48
So sad.
kapok's not bullet proof - there's a problem with terms here. Kapok stuffed vests were worn by anti aircraft gunners on ships in WW2 aka 'flack gunners' hence the name 'flack jacket'.
But it was intended as a flotation device in case they went overboard, it won't stop a round.
Up until the 1980s bullet poof vests were full of metal plates. I have worn one - it was bloody heavy! Not something you would wear for leisure activities, although the plates are removable so you can swap them out should one become damaged. No kapok in it.
well not entirely.. flak jackets gave protection from lower velocity projectiles than things like bullets. IE, Flak , pieces of shell casings etc. They were made with as you say, steel plates, then ballistic nylon.. Kapok filled "Mae Wests" were life jackets..
These are indeed sad times for Tannerds and I must echo some of the comments about the poor 'church furniture' aesthetic-christ the vintage boxes are ugly enough why repeat the crime ;-).
In terms of materials the new Prestige drivers are probably better than the vintage, eg Alnico 3 has all the properties of Ticonal G but with more tolerance to heat and less likely to demagnetise under high power, HF diaphragms may well have lost some magic when they ran out of Spitfire scrap Al/Mg sheet metal-probably a huge 'British' myth there but hey ;-), the LF cone formulation is allegedly 'better' and less susceptible to humidity(far east market??).
One common misconception is that HPD cones are heavier than the Golds-, this gained traction from a PR piece that described the new HPD's low resonant freq due to use of a 'foam surround with heavy cone', they aren't, both 15' Gold and HPD385 have a Dynamic mass(Mms) of 68g, 90g if you include the air load infant and behind the cone.
My Tannoys Marco spoke of above were DMT System 215 clones-sadly just too big and too ugly to keep.
I heard some 'new' Canterburys recently and they left me cold, not a patch on Ian Walkers 'old prestige ' ones, it was as if they'd had all their character boiled out of them, zero Tannoy warmth, gone the seductive sound signature that reels you in and envelopes you. I'd take Marco's Lockwoods or Ian Walkers (ex) Canterburys over them in a heartbeat.
Interesting post, Frank, (on a number of levels), I'll get to it later:)
Just quickly however, have you been round to Ian's recently and heard his Naim/Briks system? If so, what do you think of it in comparison with the systems he ran before with his Canterburys?
Mad that after all the gear he's been through over the years, he's gone full circle back to Naim, and with pair of speakers on the end that couldn't be more a polar opposite of what he's had before!:eek:
Marco.
Hi Marco,
I did have a listen pre Covid but wasn't too enamoured with the Briks-they did have a fault at the time as far as I'm aware but I've never been much of a fan tbh, like all things audio, whatever floats your boat is right for you.
I just loved Ian's Canterbury/Copper combo-a forever system to my ears.
The Black Adder
19-05-2021, 12:28
Didn't know Ian got rid of his Canterbury's.
I thought he would have kept those. They were lovely speakers.
When I bought his Copper amp he was using some QUAD amps and they sounded great. They were modded by Duncan?
Can't say I've heard said Naim speakers but I'd be surprised if they would sound anything like as good. I'm not a fan of the Naim sound anyway so, that could be my only reasoning.
Lol... Is there something your not telling us, Barry... It's not everyday one adorns a flack jacket... Ex SAS man maybe?[emoji23]
Sent from my 9001X using Tapatalk
"Flack" was put in inverted commas as I didn't know how best describe the khaki-coloured military style jacket I once wore. The kapock filling was for insulation, making the jacket heavier than it could be.
Didn't know Ian got rid of his Canterbury's.
I thought he would have kept those. They were lovely speakers.
When I bought his Copper amp he was using some QUAD amps and they sounded great. They were modded by Duncan?
Can't say I've heard said Naim speakers but I'd be surprised if they would sound anything like as good. I'm not a fan of the Naim sound anyway so, that could be my only reasoning.
Just as a quick point of note, Jo, it's LINN speakers (Isobariks) he's using now with Naim amps:)
I've not heard his new system yet, but plan to hopefully soon.
Frank, I'll come back you on the other stuff later:cool:
Marco.
The Black Adder
19-05-2021, 13:09
Ah, righto.... IsoBbariks have a good reputation. Only heard one set a long time ago. Sounded good. They might match well with Naim stuff I suppose.
Still surprised though.
Linn Isobariks, IMO, are still the worse speakers I have ever heard. I listened to them on two separate occasions and at two separate venues - they were awful!
They tend to be an acquired taste, due to how differently they present music, compared with conventional speakers. I've heard them sound good and also bad. Good, always with Naim gear (sources and amps), and bad = almost anything else!
However, I have heard them sound quite superb with ECS amps (and also their monoblock counterparts): https://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/ea2_e.html
'Briks' are rather power-hungry, being fairly inefficient and not a particularly easy load, and also need to paired with amps with plenty of 'grip' to control the prodigious bass that they're capable of.
Otherwise, it can sound rather overblown otherwise, but when they work well, in a room that suits them, they fill the room with a very musically satisfying sound and can be rather addictive!:)
Marco.
Hi Frank,
One common misconception is that HPD cones are heavier than the Golds-, this gained traction from a PR piece that described the new HPD's low resonant freq due to use of a 'foam surround with heavy cone', they aren't, both 15' Gold and HPD385 have a Dynamic mass(Mms) of 68g, 90g if you include the air load infant and behind the cone.
That's interesting, firstly because (from memory) the cone material, at least on the surface, on Ian's drivers looked and felt different from mine. Perhaps I was just imagining that, though? And I thought the magnets were bigger, too.
In any case, I won't dispute what you're saying, as this is your area of expertise. However, what was changed then by Tannoy, in the construction of the drive units, to allow them to handle more power, when the move from valve to SS happened?:)
My Tannoys Marco spoke of above were DMT System 215 clones-sadly just too big and too ugly to keep.
Yeah I get that, but with the right music they were a fucking riot!!:fingers::D I don't think I've heard bass like that since!! At least from a home system. My car system could probably replicate it, which I need to let you hear next time, as I think you'd like it - maybe almost as much as the car, which seemed to meet with your approval, lol?
I heard some 'new' Canterburys recently and they left me cold, not a patch on Ian Walkers 'old prestige ' ones, it was as if they'd had all their character boiled out of them, zero Tannoy warmth, gone the seductive sound signature that reels you in and envelopes you. I'd take Marco's Lockwoods or Ian Walkers (ex) Canterburys over them in a heartbeat.
Even more interesting... What on earth was going on, I wonder - why the reason for the inferior sound? What have they changed then, in order to have effected such a downgrade, oh I mean 'improvement'?:doh::rolleyes:
Marco.
fatmarley
20-05-2021, 03:46
Even more interesting... What on earth was going on, I wonder - why the reason for the inferior sound? What have they changed then, in order to have effected such a downgrade, oh I mean 'improvement'?:doh::rolleyes:
It's not just Tannoy, It seems quite a few well known speaker manufacturers started life producing excellent products, and then went downhill. I believe it's because speaker design is partly black art, and partly science. The founder of Tannoy Guy R fountain retired in 1974. I don't believe for one minute that you can just chuck money at a loudspeaker and produce something innovative, to achieve what he did takes passion.
Certain aspects like cabinet design have improved, so you'd expect the lower frequencies to be tighter and more controlled, but from the measurements I've seen, the modern Legacy Tannoys (https://www.hifitest.de/test/lautsprecher_stereo/tannoy_legacy_eaton-tannoy_legacy_cheviot-tannoy_legacy_arden_15338) look like they've gone downhill. Off-axis response look messy in the measurements I've seen compared to the ones Troels took of the Monitor Gold 15 (http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/tannoyMG15.htm) (In case you missed it, the large dip at 2khz is caused by a wonky voice coil). Also, on-axis has the peaks and dips in the wrong places IMO (the Legacy Eaton doesn't look bad on-axis though). IIRC Hifitest.de take their measurements way off the ground using a cherry picker, and a high quality measurement microphone, so the measurements should be even more accurate down to low frequencies than what you see in Stereophile measurements.
I know that some people are very happy with the Legacy series, but that doesn't mean they couldn't be even happier.
The Black Adder
20-05-2021, 06:38
As a side note to this thread and a bit of history.
To anyone who is looking in to the golds or reds. These days, they do need some work to get them sounding as intended. But once you have them correctly set up, you will simply fall in love with them.
So, one thing to note is that Golds come under criticism for the so-called 'Honk' but this phenomenon can be reduced to a massive degree by updating the crossovers.
The (so called) original schematic for the gold crossover which some on the net construct new crossovers with is actually flawed and have (at some point in the past) been altered to suit a certain need which is very unclear.
It's a shame because that schematic seems to be held as gospel by some, which it really isn't.
In addition to that, some people who listen to Golds have only listened to them in their original state with scratchy treble controls, incorrect settings and sometimes in cabinets which simply don't allow the drivers to do their best.
Not only that, the original crossovers have a tenancy of being totally out of kilter in regards to cap value drift over 40+ years.
With that in addition to when Tannoy originally made the golds, they were in huge demand and so they had to fit what they could get in to the crossovers. I've taken apart many original crossovers and found caps and some resistors which have the incorrect values printed on them and also measure incorrectly.
In those busy times for Tannoy, only the units that went to studios were apparently tested and quality controlled.
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They tend to be an acquired taste, due to how differently they present music, compared with conventional speakers. I've heard them sound good and also bad. Good, always with Naim gear (sources and amps), and bad = almost anything else!
However, I have heard them sound quite superb with ECS amps (and also their monoblock counterparts): https://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/ea2_e.html
'Briks' are rather power-hungry, being fairly inefficient and not a particularly easy load, and also need to paired with amps with plenty of 'grip' to control the prodigious bass that they're capable of, which can sound rather overblown otherwise, but when they work well, in a room that suits them, they can fill the room with a very musically satisfying sound and be rather addictive!:)
Marco.
Interesting, given that Naim amps aren't anything out of the ordinary in terms of wattage or current delivery.
never heard any Isobariks but the upward firing additional mid and tweeter idea puts me off them. A bit gimmicky in my book.
The Black Adder
20-05-2021, 07:52
Interesting, given that Naim amps aren't anything out of the ordinary in terms of wattage or current delivery.
never heard any Isobariks but the upward firing additional mid and tweeter idea puts me off them. A bit gimmicky in my book.The last time I heard any was around 2009. For the brief (and naive) time I listened they sounded good but can't remember what was powering them. I'd imagine it was Naim amps. I'd imagine Naim would have suited them best.
I remember Ians tannoys, though... They were very nice.
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Hi Marco,
I think there is a real synergy between 'Copper' amps and Tannoy DC's.
The K series drivers from the 80's and in fact any HPD and onwards cone kits use the Kurt Mueller blue cones, the Golds are black-the pulp formulations could well be a point of difference.
The HPD's got high(er) temp voice-coils, the HF horn/dia and the AlNiCo mags are the same as Gold's-if you have knackered Golds and cant source recone kits you can drop HPD kits in and bingo a HPD is born. The later short horn ceramic mag K's got aluminium voicecoil formers to increase power handling further(there is a theoretical limit to how much power a 2" voice coil will handle with about 175w continuous a realistic figure).
I've no idea whats gone wrong re the latest Canterbury but I was expecting to be blown away as all the ancillary gear was pretty top notch(big Schitter amps/SME deck etc) super new audiophile crossovers, new cone formulation, M roll surrounds etc etc but was left utterly disappointed.
I've no idea whats gone wrong re the latest Canterbury but I was expecting to be blown away as all the ancillary gear was pretty top notch(big Schitter amps/SME deck etc) super new audiophile crossovers, new cone formulation, M roll surrounds etc etc but was left utterly disappointed.
Dis you hear them tested with a digital source too? There's a million things that could be wrong with a turntable set up. Last Linn demo I attended there was audible HF distortion either from a poorly set up cartridge or the stylus was worn or damaged. Not the fault of the speakers or amps, they just reproduce it. The dealer didn't seem to notice it.
Interesting, given that Naim amps aren't anything out of the ordinary in terms of wattage or current delivery.
never heard any Isobariks but the upward firing additional mid and tweeter idea puts me off them. A bit gimmicky in my book.
Just sonic synergy, mate, I guess... But they can work very well together. The effect of the upwards firing drivers is interesting, and can take a little getting used to, but in the right room, and presuming the right amps are used with them, it can make for a rather addictive room-filling sound:)
Defo not accurate though, which is why Linn Isobariks could never be studio monitors!
Marco.
Hi Marco,I think there is a real synergy between 'Copper' amps and Tannoy DC's.
Yes, I fully agree, but probably only because the Copper amp (or indeed anything made my Anthony) is done RIGHT - there's no 'special magic';)
However I would say, that Tannoy DCs do respond particularly well when partnered with a really good valve amp, such as the Copper amp, or indeed anything else of a similar ilk that's built right, a Radford, perhaps?
IMO, more so than anything SS. That's certainly my current opinion, until I hear an SS amp in that context that forces me to changes my mind.
Think about it...
Ian's Canterburys + Copper amp. Tick!
My Lockies + Copper amp. Tick!
Jo's Lockies + Copper amp. Tick!
Anthony's Kensington SEs + Copper amp (or his single-ended Soul Amp hybrids). Tick!
Steve Toy's Kensington GRs + Copper amp. Tick!
A 'happy accident'? Don't think so!!
The K series drivers from the 80's and in fact any HPD and onwards cone kits use the Kurt Mueller blue cones, the Golds are black-the pulp formulations could well be a point of difference.
Ah, I see.. I knew they were somehow different! Could that, even in a small way, be responsible for a difference in sound?
The HPD's got high(er) temp voice-coils, the HF horn/dia and the AlNiCo mags are the same as Gold's-if you have knackered Golds and cant source recone kits you can drop HPD kits in and bingo a HPD is born. The later short horn ceramic mag K's got aluminium voicecoil formers to increase power handling further(there is a theoretical limit to how much power a 2" voice coil will handle with about 175w continuous a realistic figure).
Thanks. That's interesting and noted:)
I've no idea whats gone wrong re the latest Canterbury but I was expecting to be blown away as all the ancillary gear was pretty top notch(big Schitter amps/SME deck etc) super new audiophile crossovers, new cone formulation, M roll surrounds etc etc but was left utterly disappointed.
No worries. A few years ago, I heard the top-of-the-range Kingdom Royals at a show.. My overriding reaction was 'meh' - and for speakers that cost a whopping SIXTY THOUSAND POUNDS, that simply isn't good enough!
They should've blown my mind and had me writing a cheque on the spot!! Would I retire my Lockies for them, even if they were gifted to me? No fooking chance..... So what does that tell you?:rolleyes:
Problem is, the monied old farts, posing as 'audiophiles', buying these things, simply aren't discerning enough to any know better (or care)!
Marco.
If you had them on the end of your system would that still be your verdict though?
That's the trouble with judging crap-sounding systems at shows, it could be any part of the system that is letting it down, it ain't necessarily the loudspeakers.
The better the loudspeaker the more likely it is to highlight a problem upstream.
It's not just Tannoy, It seems quite a few well known speaker manufacturers started life producing excellent products, and then went downhill. I believe it's because speaker design is partly black art, and partly science. The founder of Tannoy Guy R fountain retired in 1974. I don't believe for one minute that you can just chuck money at a loudspeaker and produce something innovative, to achieve what he did takes passion.
Hi Matt,
Good point, and I think you're spot on. I suspect also because ears were used in the design process more than computers in those days!;)
And that's where the 'black art' comes in..
Marco.
If you had them on the end of your system would that still be your verdict though?
That's the trouble with judging crap-sounding systems at shows, it could be any part of the system that is letting it down, it ain't necessarily the loudspeakers.
The better the loudspeaker the more likely it is to highlight a problem upstream.
Yup, I completely agree.
However, if you're going to demonstrate your flagship loudspeakers at a show, where a percentage of the audience (like me) a) will be experienced and discerning, and therefore *know* what a good sound is, and b) will be intrinsically familiar with the Tannoy DC sound, and who's own Tannoy DC benchmark at home will therefore be of a very high sonic standard, then make bloody sure that they sound ***utterly stunning*** (and are a MASSIVE upgrade from what they're using), as indeed they should be.
And if you think what others and I attending heard represented that, but who considered it as no more than mediocre, then hire someone in the first place with better ears and greater ability to demonstrate them to their full potential!!;)
In short, set your goals to impress experienced and discerning enthusiasts, not idiot 'key-janglers' with more money than sense!
Marco.
Yup, I completely agree.
However, if you're going to demonstrate your flagship speaker at a show, where a percentage of the audience (like me) a) will be experienced and discerning, and therefore *know* what a good sound is, and b) will be intrinsically familiar with the Tannoy DC sound, and who's own Tannoy benchmark at home will be of a very high sonic standard, then make bloody sure that they sound UTTERLY STUNNING, as indeed they should do.
And if you think what others and I attending heard represented that, but who considered it as no more than mediocre, then hire someone with better ears to set the system up in the first place!!;)
In short, set your goals to impress experienced and discerning enthusiasts, not idiots with more money than sense!
Marco.
Absolutely. Better to just close the room until you've got it sorted because just one brief listen to a crap sound is enough to put people off ever buying or even considering your product.
But for some reason they don't ever seem to do that.
Mate, it's a classic case of 'cobble it together, ASAP, and fuck off the bar' syndrome.. I've seen (heard) it happen all too often at shows!:rolleyes:
Jeez, when we used to demo AoS systems at Scalford, I was up until 3am (in our demo room) fastidiously getting the system, and particularly turntable and speaker positioning, set-up 'just so', for folks coming in at 10am - and I had nowt to gain from it, apart from hopefully visitors enjoying the sound produced and demonstrating that we knew how to do things RIGHT, even within the limitations of a hotel room.
And that's why we got rave reviews and feedback from many who attended and heard the sound our system made - and our room throughout the day was packed full of other demonstrators (not just punters), because they couldn't tear themselves away!:eyebrows:
WHERE is that kind of passion and enthusiasm/striving for perfection at shows from professional traders, selling their products, who are supposed be 'experts' running successful businesses??
Marco.
I listened to Kensington Royals at an audio show (can't remember where or when). The room was empty, but regardless of where I sat, I too thought they were a bit 'meh', despite being powered from a good amp and fed from a good source.
I was about to leave, stood up and walked to the back of the room, behind the chairs - and then everything 'clicked', and they sounded a whole lot better. 'Better' mind you, not 'wow', nor anywhere near good enough to think about buying them.
I was about to leave, stood up and walked to the back of the room, behind the chairs - and then everything 'clicked', and they sounded a whole lot better. 'Better' mind you, not 'wow', nor anywhere near good enough to think about buying them.
Lol - good news, but somewhat surprising, as Tannoy DCs are known for generally sounding best when listened to near-field, so the opposite should've applied! But then, KRs are not true DCs (as in have only one main driver), and therefore don't deliver that classic 'point-source' thing.. They have separate bass drivers, plus a DC mid/bass unit and super-tweeter.
Anyway, what you've said should give hope to Macca when he (eventually - hopefully before Xmas 2025:eyebrows:) gets his 'ardons, and listens to them 'long-field'!
Marco.
Well anyway I strongly suspect the Kingdom Royal sound superb with the right equipment and properly sited. There's really no reason why they wouldn't.
Preference over other Tannoy variants is a different issue.
Well anyway I strongly suspect the Kingdom Royal sound superb with the right equipment and properly sited. There's really no reason why they wouldn't.
Yes, apart from all the (valid) reasons mentioned;)
I'm not closedminded to the possibility, but as you say, when you've heard something make a bad (or not particularly great) sound, it puts you completely off.
I suspect, as Matt and I alluded to earlier, and this doesn't just apply to Tannoy (far from it), there are too many computers involved in loudspeaker design today. instead of good old-fashioned ears - and also too much measuring and not enough listening, resulting in stuff having a rather 'bland' and uninspiring sound [IMO, it requires a significant level of human intervention to voice speakers for greatness], which I suspect is why so few modern ones do it for me.
As I said before: many of today's designs are simply triumphs of technology over musicality - and in some cases - hugely overpriced ones, too!
Marco.
Steve Toy's system with Copper amp and Tannoy Kensignton GRs:
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/922/jnv7FS.jpg
Marco.
The speakers I heard looked like these:
https://30.cdn.ekm.net/ekmps/shops/audioemotion/images/tannoy-westminster-royal-gr-ow-loudspeakers-459-p.png
Somewhat larger and equally 'Edwardian' in styling.
They're not Kingdom Royals, Barry, these are: https://www.audioaffair.co.uk/tannoy-kingdom-royal-speakers-pair?gclid=Cj0KCQjwkZiFBhD9ARIsAGxFX8CEw7ctA4QdDLK 6X2z9c4jkfjhe7b6XGSVNGXk2XtXFUAb1yOg2N4AaApoSEALw_ wcB
What you've posted is a pic of a Westminster Royal GR: https://www.audioaffair.co.uk/tannoy-prestige-westminster-royal-se-speakers-pair?gclid=Cj0KCQjwkZiFBhD9ARIsAGxFX8DUvdf-FGwpM3oqq7kZnmnefHGXdX-AqBBJuYaysJ5G1naQCp4DDIQaAnJsEALw_wcB
In the right system and room, I'd expect the latter to sound better that the former (at least to my tastes), as it's a true (sole) dual-concentric:)
For me, as soon as you start augmenting the design with a separate bass driver, it's no longer a proper DC - and won't reproduce the revered (among enthusiasts) 'point source effect' like one either.
Marco.
hifinutt
21-05-2021, 12:28
Would not mind hearing some Kensington but for now the tannoy Eaton legacy are staying put . 3 years now and they just sound so 'right ' . Balanced, superb imaging and just a lovely non fatiguing musical sound
They're not Kingdom Royals, Barry, these are: https://www.audioaffair.co.uk/tannoy-kingdom-royal-speakers-pair?gclid=Cj0KCQjwkZiFBhD9ARIsAGxFX8CEw7ctA4QdDLK 6X2z9c4jkfjhe7b6XGSVNGXk2XtXFUAb1yOg2N4AaApoSEALw_ wcB
What you've posted is a pic of a Westminster Royal GR: https://www.audioaffair.co.uk/tannoy-prestige-westminster-royal-se-speakers-pair?gclid=Cj0KCQjwkZiFBhD9ARIsAGxFX8DUvdf-FGwpM3oqq7kZnmnefHGXdX-AqBBJuYaysJ5G1naQCp4DDIQaAnJsEALw_wcB
In the right system and room, I'd expect the latter to sound better that the former (at least to my tastes), as it's a true (sole) dual-concentric:)
For me, as soon as you start augmenting the design with a separate bass driver, it's no longer a proper DC - and won't reproduce the revered (among enthusiasts) 'point source effect' like one either.
Marco.
OK - I didn't take much notice of the name, only of their appearance, which were I assume were as shown, but with the grills fitted.
Not sure I would want to pay £52K for either of them.
Apropos Tannoy DCs being driven via valve vs ss. Coincidentally I switch over last week from a Radford 25 to a Neurochrome 686 driving the Berkeleys. Both front ended by a 6SN7GT valve preamp. Difficult to verbalise the difference. Both highly detailed, huge soundstage, textual richness and tons of dynamic range. Both very fast with transients etc. I guess the difference would be that the Raddy has a slightly more appealing midtone whilst the 686 has a greater sense of reserve power. But honestly not big night/day differences. Other people's mileage may vary of course. :)
The 686 is exceptionally good though. Plenty of clunker solid states you could swap in and be horrified :)
The Black Adder
23-05-2021, 15:11
I've had my Golds hooked up to my Quad 306 for the last few months... What can I say. Very pleased with the sound.
I'd like to know what Quad use that others don't.
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Nothing wrong with a 306, Jo. It's a superb little amp - the epitome of 'neutral': seems to add nothing nor take anything away, but not in a boring or soulless way. It just sounds 'right', and at a bargain price! I love mine:)
Ok, it doesn't have the 'open and airy intimacy', timbral resolution, seductive tonality/timing accuracy, or draws you into the music quite so addictively as the Copper amp, but you only get that (or something approaching it) with amps that truly come into the 'special' category, and usually glowing bottles are involved..
But for the money, the 306 is a really capable little thing and has no annoying or overt character/sonic signature. It just seems to reproduce the signal it's given very faithfully. Only thing, as you've found, is when you use it with the Croft, you've only got a few clicks on the volume control before you're blowing the house down, especially with 95db 15" MGs!
So did you land that Tisbury I recommended, or what other passive device did you settle on for using with the 306?:cool:
Marco.
The Black Adder
24-05-2021, 04:20
Nothing wrong with a 306, Jo. It's a superb little amp - the epitome of 'neutral': seems to add nothing nor take anything away, but not in a boring or soulless way. It just sounds 'right', and at a bargain price! I love mine:)
Ok, it doesn't have the 'open and airy intimacy', timbral resolution, seductive tonality/timing accuracy, or draws you into the music quite so addictively as the Copper amp, but you only get that (or something approaching it) with amps that truly come into the 'special' category, and usually glowing bottles are involved..
But for the money, the 306 is a really capable little thing and has no annoying or overt character/sonic signature. It just seems to reproduce the signal it's given very faithfully. Only thing, as you've found, is when you use it with the Croft, you've only got a few clicks on the volume control before you're blowing the house down, especially with 95db 15" MGs!
So did you land that Tisbury I recommended, or what other passive device did you settle on for using with the 306?:cool:
Marco.Hi Marco.
Totally agree. It's a great little amp.
Yes, I've had the tisbury for a while now. Great little thing. Wouldn't mind trying other passive amps with it too.
Might give it a go with the copper too! Need to get the copper serviced though.
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