Klipsch KG 4.5 with upgrades

[Opti-cal]

Hi guys,

I'm expecting the arrival of a pair of Klipsch KG 4.5 speakers. They have the Bob Crites upgraded tweeter.

I bought them because:


A) I've never tried a pair of Klipsch's

B) I need a room filling speaker for my lounge area (approx 6X9m) - It has a slight bass 'suck out' around 50-100Hz so I'm kind of hoping the 10" drivers will overcome this!

and

C) If possible I would like to remove the sub from the setup (but will keep if it 'needs' it).


I know there was a thread here a while ago on them but I'm looking for impressions on them and if they are likely to fulfill the above requirements.

Apparently the tweeter upgrade smooths things out and extends frequency response and I have no issue doing a recap if required. The specs to me look good with very good frequency response (36-20khz), so much so that if possible I would like to remove the REL T3 sub I'm currently using in the setup. Although I'm happy to keep it in if necessary.

Partnering equipment can be anything from a 300b SET to a hybrid Class D 50w. I also quite fancy getting another EL34 Triode or UL amplifier at some point, possibly build one of the Chinese kits but use some superior components. I know, I'm a cheap bast***.


Thoughts and advice appreciated as always guys,

Cheers

Chris

[Macca]

Quite an old model isn't it?

Never tried Klipsch myself but been tempted a few times. How big is your room?

[Opti-cal]

Yes I believe they were manufactured from 94-97 but these seem very well looked after and have the desirable tweeter upgrade.

The room is approx 6x9m but I may try them in a smaller space too although I'm aware they are optimal in large spaces.

The consensus seems to be, control the highs (which the tweeter upgrade should do anyway) and match with the right equipment, and you should have a very big sounding speaker with good bass and some horn signature in there too. I do really appreciate a horn done correctly and can't quite stretch to the 'real deal' offerings from Altec/JBL etc, so this could be an 'enabling' speaker into that realm too.

[Macca]

Plenty of space for them, should be interesting.

[Opti-cal]

Pics and report shall duly follow....

[antonio]

Have they got lost in the post?

[Opti-cal]

Have they got lost in the post?

Haha, no David they have been setup but the rest of my lounge is currently such a state I'm rather embarrassed to show the area in which they reside! I shall indeed update once I screw a couple of storage units together to house some of my 3 year old's toys which currently populate the area, even though I'm sure I've put them elsewhere/thrown them away/convinced him they are 'broken' etc . . . . it's a losing battle.

[Haselsh1]

Had a pair of 3.5's and 4.5's back around 1997 partnered with an Audion 300B SE amp and an Audion Sterling ETSE amp. All I remember about them is that they matched the 300B extremely well but the Sterling wasn't quite so good. The 300B tamed the tweeter sting and gave a seriously good sound from vinyl. Large, huge bass, good stereo image and gorgeous midrange. Only moved on because of Audio Note AZ-2's.

Oh yeah, bloody lovely with jazz, better with modern, electric jazz. I also preferred the 3.5's due to the size of my then room.

[Colin2040]

I had a pair about 4 - 5 years ago , living room is about 8x6 maybe slightly more. I liked them I used an eastern electric with passive pre. I think I also used a witch hat with passive as well. I loved them great speaker

[Haselsh1]

And a real audio bargain at the time.

[Opti-cal]

Thanks guys, that's very encouraging to hear as I do plan on mating them with a 300b power amp. The tweeters already have the Bob Crites upgrades which apparently does tame them a little in the apparent shrillness department yet also allowing them to extend further. I've been listening to them in a less than ideal setting with some fairly basic equipment (until my 300b is 100% finished) and they do have big bass. Drum hits sound particularly life-like.

Should have the lounge up and running properly this weekend so will take some proper pics of them and finally get them up!

[Haselsh1]

Chris, would love to see what this all looks like. All the best getting this together.

[Haselsh1]

I remember playing Eddie Reader's Dear John track from CD through my old setup when I had it. It still doesn't sound as good as it did back then.

[Opti-cal]

My sincere apologies for lack of photo's that I did in fact promise!

Truth is I've only just got them sorted and properly setup in their new habitat. A word quite apt given that my lounge over lockdown etc was beginning to more closely resemble a jungle than any inhabitable space.

Anyway, I cleared the decks and fought back the undergrowth somewhat to reveal some partnering equipment for them to be tried with.

Paired with a newly rebuilt 300B SET amplifier (recently converted from AC to DC using some very nice regulators, thanks Alan). Also tried a couple of tube and SS preamps.

Well, no need for a sub with these. Definitely getting down to the low 30Hz area. Drums sound very realistic indeed. Also there is a lot of top end sparkle thanks to the 'Bob Crites' tweeter upgrade. These can sound a bit shrill with some kit (as most Klipsch's can) but no need for new fillings with these yet.

They're nice speakers, they go very loud and have very good bass. Their primary use will be background music in the living room as well as some AV duties for films and general telly watching. For this they are pretty much spot on.

As you can see from the pics they are somewhat imposing but foot-print wise they only take up a bit more room than the average speaker stand . . . . at least that's my argument. To be honest the 300B amplifier is slightly wasted in that setup as i won't be doing a huge amount of critical listening so I decided to try my class D power amp in combination with just a volume relay in front (a very good one though). I was a bit hesitant as I had assumed a fully SS front end might sound a bit shrill and harsh with them, none of it. The combo actually sounds really nice. Very sweet and forgiving sound, like I say I was quite surprised. The amplifier does have a single tube on the input side of both channels which gives some extra harmonics and possibly softens the sound a bit but it just works really well.

Horses for courses as ever. As you can see from the photo's with the grills on and some carefully placed toys in attendance it comes to some kind of compromise between an AV system and a domestic living area . . . . maybe. A couple of colourful pics on the wall and maybe a couple of plants in the mix and I'll be there . . . after over a year since moving in . . . . .

https://i.ibb.co/8DWR5XG/IMG-20210724-105549-247.jpg (https://ibb.co/KjMQqmB)

https://i.ibb.co/4mJLbNh/IMG-20210724-121400-303.jpg (https://ibb.co/Fxn1Q7R)

https://i.ibb.co/z77Qpck/IMG-20210724-105534-098.jpg (https://ibb.co/4YYKzyQ)

https://i.ibb.co/182vgps/IMG-20210724-105628-326.jpg (https://ibb.co/hD876nX)

[Haselsh1]

Looking seriously good :thumbsup:

I remember back around 1997 at a hi-fi show in Buxton in the Klipsch room. I asked the guy who was the UK importer if he would play one of my CD tracks. He did. It was Dear John by Eddie Reader. We were all stunned by the beauty of the sound. 300B SET amplifiers producing an absolutely stunning sound through 4.5's.

[Opti-cal]

Looking seriously good :thumbsup:

I remember back around 1997 at a hi-fi show in Buxton in the Klipsch room. I asked the guy who was the UK importer if he would play one of my CD tracks. He did. It was Dear John by Eddie Reader. We were all stunned by the beauty of the sound. 300B SET amplifiers producing an absolutely stunning sound through 4.5's.

Yes there is an undeniable synergy between them. This particular 300B amp actually does terrific bass so it's already on high marks before you factor in that 'inner' 300B magic. Thing about these speakers is that there isn't a huge amount of natural midrange. Being a 10" (relatively stiff) main driver and a tweeter which is crossed fairly high, it's barely even a two-way, More like a 1.7 way haha.

Hence the slight lack of midrange. This might be where the 300B fills in the gaps a little bit compared to other amps and enables the main driver to really stretch it's legs.

At no point does it sound 'tubey/slow' etc or any other criticisms of some tube amps. It's just rich harmonics, sparking top end and (with this amp) coupled with massive bass slam, it's certainly making some lovely sounds.

That said however, I've got nearly all that (possibly just lacking some inner detail) with my tube hybrid Class D amp, so they must have good response with most amplifiers. I think if Klipsch had a bit more UK availability these (and ones made around the same time and of similar design) would be a lot more popular, they certainly deserve to be.

Perhaps more suited to the US market though, they do need a large(ish) room to really strut their stuff, I can't get much past 1/3 volume or stuff is gonna break!

[Haselsh1]

I gave up on the Klipsch's purely for Audio Note AZ-2's with an immense midrange realism and breathiness. Both were powered by an Audion 300B SET amplifier. Lovely stuff that excelled greatly with female vocals and acoustic guitar.

[Pepperamip]

I loved my KG4.5s. Mine had both the tweeters and new crossover caps and sounded sublime the amtastix mini 1 running off a 12v sla battery.

How are you finding them?


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[Opti-cal]

I gave up on the Klipsch's purely for Audio Note AZ-2's with an immense midrange realism and breathiness. Both were powered by an Audion 300B SET amplifier. Lovely stuff that excelled greatly with female vocals and acoustic guitar.

Yes, superb speakers on the couple of occasions I've had the pleasure. Did seem like quite a 'specialist' speaker though (which personally I'm fine with) regarding the genres it is most sympathetic towards. Do they work best with some room boundary reinforcement (from memory)? As you say the realism and midrange is quite something. They remind me of my little Loth X BS1's actually, a very fast paper cone driver provides those special moments. Don't like being pushed that hard though, but with their preferred material, why would you.

[Opti-cal]

I loved my KG4.5s. Mine had both the tweeters and new crossover caps and sounded sublime the amtastix mini 1 running off a 12v sla battery.

How are you finding them?


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Big.

Big sound, big fun to be honest. I may look into doing the crossover caps and a rewire in addition but they're sounding more than fine in their current guise. They are perfect for a lounge (if you have the space) occasional listening/AV system. However they would not be out of place what so ever in a main listening system.

It's got me looking at the 5.5's and also the Forte II's now . . . just out of curiosity of course . . . .

Some Forte II's just went on Emporium and there are some very good restorers in the USA among other places.

I could really get into some restored and modified ones . . .

https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/181648-klipsch-restorations/

One day Klipschorns . . . . one day.

[hornucopia]

'One day Klipschorns . . . . one day.'
I had Ks for 17 years......go for it!

[Opti-cal]

'One day Klipschorns . . . . one day.'
I had Ks for 17 years......go for it!

I mean if anybody has any taking up their precious lounge space I'd be ok with relieving you of them....

They're not even that good anyway are they.....

[sailor]

Hi Chris, those Klipsch must sound very different to your Loth speakers. How is your cap and rewire coming along, keen to hear your thoughts after installing the Jantzen caps, that is if you haven't been too busy with the new toys. :)

Due to the directivity of those horns you might consider trying severe toe-in. If you cross the axes in front of your listening position it is possible to achieve a really wide sweet spot instead of being glued to just one 'best'

The proximity effect is responsible for this. As you move to one side you will moving off-axis from the furthest speaker less than the other speaker which is now much closer to you and is falling in SPL (a more extreme angle to the main axis) but since you are much nearer to it the sound will remain balanced. A polar response of the tractrix horn would illustrate this better than my explanation.

Also the detail in the higher frequencies will be less smeared due to the damage strong early reflections cause. The severe toe-in guides the sound essentially parallel to the near side wall. It will of course be reflected off the opposite wall but delayed long enough to not confuse the arrival of the direct sound. This depends on the size of your room.

If for example you sit well to the left, say in front of the left speaker, you will hear the direct sound and a delayed sound that has bounced off the opposite wall. If it is delayed by more than 6ms. it will not interfere with the direct sound and will add to the sensation of space. If it arrives sooner it will obscure detail and results in a congested sound. Room treatment can address these issues.

Enjoy

[Opti-cal]

Hi Chris, those Klipsch must sound very different to your Loth speakers. How is your cap and rewire coming along, keen to hear your thoughts after installing the Jantzen caps, that is if you haven't been too busy with the new toys. :)

Due to the directivity of those horns you might consider trying severe toe-in. If you cross the axes in front of your listening position it is possible to achieve a really wide sweet spot instead of being glued to just one 'best'

The proximity effect is responsible for this. As you move to one side you will moving off-axis from the furthest speaker less than the other speaker which is now much closer to you and is falling in SPL (a more extreme angle to the main axis) but since you are much nearer to it the sound will remain balanced. A polar response of the tractrix horn would illustrate this better than my explanation.

Also the detail in the higher frequencies will be less smeared due to the damage strong early reflections cause. The severe toe-in guides the sound essentially parallel to the near side wall. It will of course be reflected off the opposite wall but delayed long enough to not confuse the arrival of the direct sound. This depends on the size of your room.

If for example you sit well to the left, say in front of the left speaker, you will hear the direct sound and a delayed sound that has bounced off the opposite wall. If it is delayed by more than 6ms. it will not interfere with the direct sound and will add to the sensation of space. If it arrives sooner it will obscure detail and results in a congested sound. Room treatment can address these issues.

Enjoy

Hi Charles,

that's some interesting advice. They are currently toe'd in a little, crossing probably a meter or so behind my listening position.

From experience I prefer less rather than more toe-in, but I've never used Tractrix horn tweeters before so I'll certainly be experimenting. Thanks.

The rewiring of the speakers is happening however due to the terminals on the drivers being cheap spades (likely nickel or some other cheap metal) I have decided to bypass them also and solder the OCC wire straight onto the lead in wires of the drivers themselves whilst being careful not to cause any extra strain on said wires. I have achieved this by securing the wire with enough tension to support the lead in wires, whilst remaining slack enough to allow them to flex a little when the driver is at it's extremes of throw/recoil movement.

A picture will paint a thousand words so I will be updating the thread in due course although I need a little more wire to finish so they should be done soon.

I've doubled up the gauge just to be on the safe side too.

Cheers

Chris

[sailor]

Hi Chris, did you build the Neurochrome amp or buy it ready made? I am running the 286 and find it extremely clean and detailed. Tom's specs for these units shows vanishingly low distortion. Your 686 on the Klipsch should entertain your neighbours :lol:

[Opti-cal]

Hi Chris, did you build the Neurochrome amp or buy it ready made? I am running the 286 and find it extremely clean and detailed. Tom's specs for these units shows vanishingly low distortion. Your 686 on the Klipsch should entertain your neighbours :lol:

Hi Charles, I was in fact one of the very lucky (2) people whom received an amp hand built by Tom himself. Having followed a few builds myself the scope for improvement is there (upgrading to OCC wiring/better transformers etc), however it does it's job so well currently that it's not hit the top of my priorities list yet . . . it's rising though.

I actually did try the combination when I was playing around with them in a different room. It was indeed quite worrying even at low volumes.

Ironically my preferred pairing with the 686 currently are actually a pair of speakers which are around the 102db efficiency level, so even more efficient than the 4.5's! Luckily my preamp has adjustable gain settings so I can still have the volume pot up to around 11 o'clock before windows start to shake.

286 is a stunning amp too. I think the distortion figures are even better than the 686 however at the time I was running Quads so needed the extra power.

[Pepperamip]

Dont know why but I’ve got a feeling these might be my old ones.

Unscrew the speaker terminals and if you see sonicaps on the crossovers I’d lay money these were my old ones. Regretted selling them ever since.

I wouldn’t bother doing the bracing upgrades.last thing you want to do with these speakers is make them less sensitive.


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[Opti-cal]

Dont know why but I’ve got a feeling these might be my old ones.

Unscrew the speaker terminals and if you see sonicaps on the crossovers I’d lay money these were my old ones. Regretted selling them ever since.

I wouldn’t bother doing the bracing upgrades.last thing you want to do with these speakers is make them less sensitive.


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Will have to check this out Paul!

Sounds like it could well be the case, firstly not many in the UK as it is, and also it definitely has the tweeter upgrade and sound better than I had expected.

Did you use them with the OTL in your sig? Would imagine that was quite nice . . .

[Pepperamip]

Yes I did have them with the OTL for a while and it sounded good but I kept going back to the mini 1 t class.

Something special happened between them two so I would urge you to give it a go. I had the mini 1 but you could try any t amp as experiment.


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[Opti-cal]

Yes I did have them with the OTL for a while and it sounded good but I kept going back to the mini 1 t class.

Something special happened between them two so I would urge you to give it a go. I had the mini 1 but you could try any t amp as experiment.


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Hmmmm . . . interesting Paul,

they have come up on my radar before actually but never heard one. I like the fact the volume can be bypassed and the unit used in "poweramp" mode. I couldn't have it in the lounge system without a remote you see (lazy AF) so I have a very nice remote controlled volume attenuation preamp which should actually make it sound even better. Great price for performance it seems.

Have to say though they're already sounding wonderful with my 'converted' Musical Paradise MP-303 power amp. If there's another amp to touch it under £500 I know not of it . . .

[Pepperamip]

Hmmmm . . . interesting Paul,

they have come up on my radar before actually but never heard one. I like the fact the volume can be bypassed and the unit used in "poweramp" mode. I couldn't have it in the lounge system without a remote you see (lazy AF) so I have a very nice remote controlled volume attenuation preamp which should actually make it sound even better. Great price for performance it seems.

Have to say though they're already sounding wonderful with my 'converted' Musical Paradise MP-303 power amp. If there's another amp to touch it under £500 I know not of it . . .

I know what you mean about remote volume. I had it with a couple of stepped attenuator preamps in power amp mode initially and the constant getting up and down from my listening position got on my wick eventually.

I’d love to hear your thoughts if you do decide to get one. To me it’s been the best amp I’ve owned on the proviso you have big sensitive speakers. Not bad for £130!


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