View Full Version : DAC recommendation
I'm looking at dacs having just bought a Innuos Zen at a give away price. The requirements, 2 inputs USB and S/PDIF, balanced analogue out, ideally internally mains powered, budget is not inexhaustable but not really a deciding factor, and not too quirky looking. I rather like traditional hifi boxes. All thoughts warmly received.
Regards
Martin
Stryder5
11-04-2021, 18:58
Try Soncoz, very good reports.
Gary
Topping D70, 90, Soncoz, RME.
Set your budget, add take your pick. They are all pretty good.
Stranraer
11-04-2021, 19:40
I've run a MArk Levinson 390 CD player, an Oppo 95 DVD player and Audiolab 6000 CD transport through my Soncoz SGD1 DAC and it's brought them all to life. I've alao streamed songs via Amazon.
Detail, seperation, deep bass. It's all there.
A very happy listener. Listening to Van Morrison, Astral Weeks as I type. Sweet Thing........
I must confess to never having heard of Soncoz, I'll start some research.
Thanks
M
Firebottle
12-04-2021, 06:28
I have been through the usual Delta Sigma suspects and now have a Musician Pegasus R-2R dac. The detail, layering and sheer vividness is sublime.
I too use an Innuos Zen.
Stranraer
12-04-2021, 13:24
I must confess to never having heard of Soncoz, I'll start some research.
Thanks
M
Neither had I until a few months ago, Martin.
I put a very similar enquiry out to yours on here, and got several owners reply. I have no connection to Keith at Purite Audio but he's a dealer and posted one for a home trial.
Ammonite Audio
17-04-2021, 05:51
I have been completely beguiled by the Denafrips Ares II DAC, which I bought at the end of last year from Willowtree Audio. Denafrips seemingly make reasonably priced DACs for people who value tonal colour and musical expression, which for me means a really absorbing listening experience that sits happily alongside top flight vinyl. I am seriously considering upgrading to one of Denafrips' top DAC models.
So, I'd recommend placing Denafrips on the list. They are Chinese, but proudly and openly Chinese, which I respect.
Filterlab
17-04-2021, 06:33
A smaller profile than usual hi-fi, but I can't recommend enough the RME Audio ADI-2 FS, it's frickin' amazing, massively flexible and the sound goes beyond anything in its price range, and treble that too. It staved off some very stiff competition in my listening tests.
And no, you don't need to have the display on.
https://i.ibb.co/289DXz5/IMG-1857.jpg (https://ibb.co/xmkpVn3)
I too have the RME ADI-FS, and agree that it's an amazing bit of kit. Recommended!
I've been having a look around, there are many potential contenders out there. The RME looks to be a fine bit of kit and not too horribly expensive. Also the Cambridge Magic200 seems to have been well received, I haven't seen many adverse comments although I'm not overly keen on external power supplies for inexplicable reasons. I have got the Zen up and working, seems to have opened up the CDs ripped so far, destroying some of my prejudices on the way, interesting times.
Regards
Martin
I have been completely beguiled by the Denafrips Ares II DAC, which I bought at the end of last year from Willowtree Audio. Denafrips seemingly make reasonably priced DACs for people who value tonal colour and musical expression, which for me means a really absorbing listening experience that sits happily alongside top flight vinyl. I am seriously considering upgrading to one of Denafrips' top DAC models.
So, I'd recommend placing Denafrips on the list. They are Chinese, but proudly and openly Chinese, which I respect.
Strongly agree with Hugo about the Ares ii.
Got mine in mid Jan and have been delighted.
Then a couple of weeks ago I got an SOtM sms200 se (plus linear ps) to feed the Denafrips Qobuz via Roon.
Just sublime and also makes me want to explore further up the Denafrips line.
RockAddict
27-04-2021, 08:08
It's a while since I posted but this thread caught my eye.
The Denafrips Pontus II (next up from the Ares II) has been on my radar for some time but is on hold for a while.
With that in mind, I wondered if any forum members with the Ares II have previous experience with the Beresford Caiman SEG and can offer any comparisons / observations in the context of sound quality / characteristics? I'm aware there is a dedicated thread for all-things Beresford but the focus of this post is on the Ares II.
For info, I recently added a Bluesound Node 2i as part of an overhauled system and, in fairness, its internal DAC is perfectly decent. However, just because :), I couldn't resist a little experiment before pulling (hopefully) the trigger on the Pontus II. Part of that experiment includes a Caiman SEG (due this week) and that's why I'm looking for info on differences in SQ etc from anyone who has had both the Ares II and the SEG.
Some info on how the Musician-Audio Pegasus came into being can be found in an article on the Darko Audio website:
https://darko.audio/2020/06/kih-77-chinese-chimera/
If the article is accurate, the Pegasus is largely based on the Denafrips Ares - I'll leave the moral and legal debates well alone.
It's a while since I posted but this thread caught my eye.
The Denafrips Pontus II (next up from the Ares II) has been on my radar for some time but is on hold for a while.
With that in mind, I wondered if any forum members with the Ares II have previous experience with the Beresford Caiman SEG and can offer any comparisons / observations in the context of sound quality / characteristics? I'm aware there is a dedicated thread for all-things Beresford but the focus of this post is on the Ares II.
For info, I recently added a Bluesound Node 2i as part of an overhauled system and, in fairness, its internal DAC is perfectly decent. However, just because :), I couldn't resist a little experiment before pulling (hopefully) the trigger on the Pontus II. Part of that experiment includes a Caiman SEG (due this week) and that's why I'm looking for info on differences in SQ etc from anyone who has had both the Ares II and the SEG.
Some info on how the Musician-Audio Pegasus came into being can be found in an article on the Darko Audio website:
https://darko.audio/2020/06/kih-77-chinese-chimera/
If the article is accurate, the Pegasus is largely based on the Denafrips Ares - I'll leave the moral and legal debates well alone.
I wouldn't put any faith in what JD says, I don't think he actually understands what a DAC is or what it does. 'I couldn’t help but see Denafrips, from the specs.' Duh. Don't forget to put a doorstop on top of it as that improves the sound. Makes you wonder why they don't come with a doorstop built in.
If you’re not a fan of China, Aqua-make some musical r2r dacs. Just sayin...
Firebottle
27-04-2021, 14:52
For info, I recently added a Bluesound Node 2i as part of an overhauled system and, in fairness, its internal DAC is perfectly decent. However, just because :), I couldn't resist a little experiment before pulling (hopefully) the trigger on the Pontus II. Part of that experiment includes a Caiman SEG (due this week) and that's why I'm looking for info on differences in SQ etc from anyone who has had both the Ares II and the SEG.
Some info on how the Musician-Audio Pegasus came into being ...
The Aries II should slaughter the Caiman, I had a Beresford Dac a long while ago and now have the Pegasus.
I am keen to compare with the Aries II so hope to arrange something with an owner. The Pontus should be even better than the Aries.
As to how the Pegasus came into being is really of no consequence, it's how it sounds, which is excellent.
Currently I am using the DACs in the CXN which to my ears sound fine, pretty revealing especially if the source material is dodgy. Coding errors in Spotify are all too apparent. It seems that there are two basic types of DAC, Sigma Delta and R2R. Would a kind soul explain the pros and cons of each type, that would seem to a be a necessary basic fundamental understanding to be able to make a choice.
Regards
Martin
There aren't really any cons to either approach. Done properly you will get a D to A conversion that is as close to perfect as is possible.
Discrete R-2R tend to be more expensive because of the need to match the resistors in the ladder to close tolerances. And you won't get as good a measured performance but done properly it will still be transparent.
In the old days all DACs were R-2R, but using a chip rather than a discrete resistor ladder, so to some extent they are a bit of a throwback. Personally I reckon the power supply implementation is more relevant to sound quality than how the D to A conversion is done.
Would be good to hear a modern DAC that could rival my big 'ol battleship, multi-bit Sony... Sadly, it hasn't happened so far, as every time I take it to a bake-off, the rather rude old ruffian has the audacity to win!:doh:;)
Marco.
Bet this has got a decent DAC in it, and it's a CD player too, as Rotel gear traditionally punches above its weight:
https://dougbradyhifi.com/products/rotel-cd11-tribute-cd-player?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI8NTNhOuj8AIVlLxxCh1EZg8NE AEYASAAEgL0T_D_BwE
Anyone heard one?:)
Marco.
Lawrence001
29-04-2021, 22:52
There aren't really any cons to either approach. Done properly you will get a D to A conversion that is as close to perfect as is possible.
Discrete R-2R tend to be more expensive because of the need to match the resistors in the ladder to close tolerances. And you won't get as good a measured performance but done properly it will still be transparent.
In the old days all DACs were R-2R, but using a chip rather than a discrete resistor ladder, so to some extent they are a bit of a throwback. Personally I reckon the power supply implementation is more relevant to sound quality than how the D to A conversion is done.I was wondering why the old TDA1541 CDPs didn't have resistor ladders, which chip provides the voltage "summation", is it the SA something or other?
Would be good to hear a modern DAC that could rival my big 'ol battleship, multi-bit Sony... Sadly, it hasn't happened so far, as every time I take it to a bake-off, the rather rude old ruffian has the audacity to win!:doh:;)
Marco.
Always wanted to hear your Dac Marco,
Maybe when normality's back again and your up in the old Country, bring it up and pop in for a visit?
Be interesting to compare it to my Directstream.
Lawrence001
30-04-2021, 11:19
Just listed a cheap R2R DAC in the classifieds, you can't really go wrong with it.
Always wanted to hear your Dac Marco,
Maybe when normality's back again and your up in the old Country, bring it up and pop in for a visit?
Be interesting to compare it to my Directstream.
Hi Gaz,
Apologies for the late reply - thought I had done, but hadn't!:doh:
Yeah, defo will do that. It would be great to see you again, too. Will be popping up to see Grant, so could kill two birds:cool:
Does your CD transport have a coaxial output? The Sony doesn't have an optical one. 1987 tech, lol...
Marco.
Firebottle
02-05-2021, 17:35
Would be good to hear a modern DAC that could rival my big 'ol battleship, multi-bit Sony... Sadly, it hasn't happened so far, as every time I take it to a bake-off, the rather rude old ruffian has the audacity to win!:doh:;)
Marco.
It would be great to bring my Pegasus R-2R up to yours for a comparison, if you are up for it?
It would be great to bring my Pegasus R-2R up to yours for a comparison, if you are up for it?
Hey Alan,
How you doing fella?
Yeah, more (jabbed n masked) the merryier!
Your Dac sounds intriguing actually, I know you don't wax lyrical about anything unless your confident in its sound (and you have an EE trained set of ears) so aye, very welcome Sir. :)
Yup,
coax output. :)
Quality... In that case it'd be a goer. Maybe sometime late August? We've got some refurbishments to do around the house before then and we want to try and fit in a break to Pembroke-shire:cool:
Marco.
It would be great to bring my Pegasus R-2R up to yours for a comparison, if you are up for it?
Defo mate, always up for that, and would be great to see you again:)
As I've just said to Gaz though, probably wouldn't be able to do anything until end Aug/Sept, if that's cool? :cool:
What's the Pegasus about then - something you've designed yourself or bought? Soz, I'm rather out of touch these days with new gear,
Marco.
Defo mate, always up for that, and would be great to see you again:)
As I've just said to Gaz though, probably wouldn't be able to do anything until end Aug/Sept, if that's cool? :cool:
What's the Pegasus about then - something you've designed yourself or bought? Soz, I'm rather out of touch these days with new gear,
Marco.
It is a commercial R-2R DAC. I am not sure if Alan has used any magic EE fairy dust on this one though.
Ah, ok. Thanks for that. I'd defo like to hear it:)
Marco.
Floyddroid
21-06-2021, 09:41
Interesting, not a mention of Chord electronics.
I have been using a Topping D90 for a while now and can recommend it.
Sorry just noticed your requirement the Topping only has 1 usb input.
A quick update, after much thought, and having got the Innuos where I want it, the choice of a DAC to replace the CXN became more important. I would like to thank everyone who contributed their thoughts, in the end I decided on the RME DAC2, as well as the basic converter it has a lot of additional facilities and all the reviews are outstandingly positive, I hope I haven't made an expensive mistake but I think not. Should be arriving on Monday so once I've had a play I'll post some thoughts.
Martin
It's a wonderful DAC!
A quick update, after much thought, and having got the Innuos where I want it, the choice of a DAC to replace the CXN became more important. I would like to thank everyone who contributed their thoughts, in the end I decided on the RME DAC2, as well as the basic converter it has a lot of additional facilities and all the reviews are outstandingly positive, I hope I haven't made an expensive mistake but I think not. Should be arriving on Monday so once I've had a play I'll post some thoughts.
Martin
The RME arrived at 4.30 on Monday afternoon having been ordered around 9 on Saturday evening, staggeringly good service. It replaces a Cambridge CXNv2, which I have absolutely no complaints about. It works very well and had I not felt that using it's DAC stage for the Innuos Zen could be bettered, I would have gone no further.
Well to say I'm staggered by the improvement doesn't begin to express my delight. Everything has got much bigger but at the same time more detailed as well. Vocals are now in front, there is a real distance between them and the band, strings sound as natural as you would want, the tonal balance across the frequency spectrum is spot on, and I suspect the exceptionally low noise floor has improved the bottom end, I can certainly hear the bass much clearer, and possibly a bit lower. Some might find the sound a bit too analytical, it certainly isn't warm and fuzzy and I'm feeding a pair of big valve mono blocks.
There are a load of features that I haven't begun to explore, and of course in the rarified world of high end hifi, dsp might be seen as heresy, I don't. At the end of the day I think it's brilliant and I would highly recommend it. I guess it's only rivals might be Chord or Benchmark but at under a grand won't look at either of those. Quite possibly the best hifi purchase I've ever made.
Martin
BultyBoy
10-10-2021, 14:52
Where did you buy it from please?
I bought it online from Scan, they offered the best price at £840 and are also an authorised dealer so when the purchase is registered with Synthax there is a 5 year warranty. There are units on Ebay however I don't think that for a secondhand item without warranty the discount is adequate, so caveat emptor, as they say.
Martin
BultyBoy
10-10-2021, 18:15
Thanks, think I will get one, been debating it for too long...
The RME arrived at 4.30 on Monday afternoon having been ordered around 9 on Saturday evening, staggeringly good service. It replaces a Cambridge CXNv2, which I have absolutely no complaints about. It works very well and had I not felt that using it's DAC stage for the Innuos Zen could be bettered, I would have gone no further.
Well to say I'm staggered by the improvement doesn't begin to express my delight. Everything has got much bigger but at the same time more detailed as well. Vocals are now in front, there is a real distance between them and the band, strings sound as natural as you would want, the tonal balance across the frequency spectrum is spot on, and I suspect the exceptionally low noise floor has improved the bottom end, I can certainly hear the bass much clearer, and possibly a bit lower. Some might find the sound a bit too analytical, it certainly isn't warm and fuzzy and I'm feeding a pair of big valve mono blocks.
There are a load of features that I haven't begun to explore, and of course in the rarified world of high end hifi, dsp might be seen as heresy, I don't. At the end of the day I think it's brilliant and I would highly recommend it. I guess it's only rivals might be Chord or Benchmark but at under a grand won't look at either of those. Quite possibly the best hifi purchase I've ever made.
Martin
Interesting. How have you done your audio path? Did you use the RME as a preamp as well or just output to a preamp? Did you go balanced or unbalanced?
I heard a demo of the v1 of the RME adi-2 Dac at Syntax some years ago and was very impressed. For various reasons I did not get one then, maybe I should think again.
I'll try and give the skeleton of the whole system. Internet is BT, ADSL over copper into the router from which there is a wired ethernet connection looped through the Innuos Zen into a Cambridge CXNv2. Digital output from the Zen is USB into the RME, digits from the CXNv2 are S/PDIF also into the RME. Note the RME has three digital inputs, USB B, S/PDIF Coax, S/PDIF Optical. It has two analogue line outputs, the unbalanced feed an Icon Audio HP8 headphone amp, the balanced feed the balanced inputs of a Quad Artera Pre whose own balanced outputs feed the unbalanced inputs of Icon Audio MB90 mono blocks. These drive PMC 25.23i speakers. You might think that I have one too many amp stages, you would be correct, the RME will function quite happily as a preamp but the current arrangements are such so that mains to the monblocks is easily controlled as they don't have front panel on/off switches. I'm way past crawling around on my hands and knees to use the hifi. The hardest part was working out the where gain should or shouldn't occur, in essence it's all at 0dBu until the power amps which is the right way to do it if you can. Any questions please ask.
Martin
Thanks Martin. Excellent. Sounds like your system is very well optimised. I imagine the monos driving the PMCs must have massive scale whilst still having a delicacy.
BultyBoy
11-10-2021, 11:59
Mine's arriving tomorrow 🙂
BultyBoy
12-10-2021, 19:45
My RME arrived today and up and running. Amazing, so resolving..I had hung back as a dealer told me a dac made no difference..
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