Elliptical Loudspeakers [Archive] - The Art of Sound Forum

Labarum

04-08-2010, 16:49

I haven't seen any elliptical loudspeakers used in Hi Fi in recent years. I would have thought they would have had some advantages in fashion conscious narrow fronted cabinets?

What are the issues, for and against?

DSJR

04-08-2010, 17:02

The nearest I've seen was a development of the old KEF B139 "racetrack" driver, used in fairly recent "Q" series cheapies.

Brian, it's probably cost, as good quality "round" castings and cones can be spat out by the millions in the far east. Any elliptical drivers belong as replacements for vintage radios :(

hifi_dave

04-08-2010, 19:49

Thiel use a KEF B139 shaped passive ABR unit in one of their older designs.

It's a wonder that ellipticals aren't more widely used as it would make it possible to fit a large bass driver in a narrow cabinet. I guess though, that they have fallen out of favour and it is now rare for a manufacturer to make their own drivers - so, round it is.

Labarum

04-08-2010, 21:25

It's a wonder that ellipticals aren't more widely used as it would make it possible to fit a large bass driver in a narrow cabinet.

That was my point. I also wondered if a an elliptical cone might be stiffer, stronger and have less, or less pronounced resonances - given that its dimensions are very variable.

I am old enough to remember the DIY Paraline loudspeaker - did that use an elliptical?

hifi_dave

04-08-2010, 21:42

In the early days of Hi-Fi there were many elliptical drivers. One of the first speakers I owned was the Leak Mini Sandwich (I still have a pair) and that had an elliptical bass/mid unit. EMI also made elliptical drivers as used by Decca and B&W.

I'm not sure if there are any downsides to an elliptical other than they would be more difficult to make.

Beobloke

05-08-2010, 07:51

I suspect it's all down to the difficulty of manufacture - having designed a couple of 6x9s in my days at Goodmans, they definitely present more than a few issues that simply do not arise with a circular cone.

Incidentally, one of my former design colleagues also worked at Goodmans in the day when Mordaunt Short were owned by TGI and were based at the other end of the building. This was when they introduced the 800 series that had elliptical bass and midrange drivers, and my friend spent more time along their end sorting their elliptical driver manufacturing issues out for them than he did working on his Goodmans stuff!

To this day, mention of the words "Mordaunt Short" are still enough to set him off on a swear-word frenzy (he's Glaswegian and knows quite a few...) even though he will subsequently begrudgingly admit that the resulting speakers were quite good!

Haselsh1

05-08-2010, 07:53

I would imagine that standing waves and resonances within the cone would be very different for an elliptical driver when compared to a round one. Whether that's better or not I wouldn't like to say. Let's just say it would be different.

Labarum

05-08-2010, 07:57

Location: North Yorkshire Moors National Park.

I do miss the North York Moors.

Haselsh1

05-08-2010, 08:28

I do miss the North York Moors.

Labarum, the North Yorkshire Moors are stunningly beautiful I have to admit and are superb for my photography but this place has its drawbacks. There are no jobs within thirty miles and you have to have transport to get anywhere. I am stuck working for my own business which I share with my partner Janet but which pays a pittance and there is no prospect of a better job whatsoever. Things are very tough here and I rely heavily on the internet for almost everything. I can't even buy a roll of film locally. Everything has to be ordered over the internet.

On a more positive side; there is no grafitti, there are no burnt out cars and no boarded up houses. I get to live in a very close knit community and be partly responsible for that community. I have just given a week of my time helping out with the Pickering Jazz Festival which I probably wouldn't have got to do in a large city or town. Everyone knows everyone else and everyone speaks and says "Good morning". It was strange at first as I came from North Lincolnshire but I have grown accustomed to it now after five years.

Thank you for your comment.

Labarum

05-08-2010, 08:38

Labarum, the North Yorkshire Moors are stunningly beautiful

http://www.north-york-moors.com/hutton-le-hole-05.jpg

http://www.nationalparks.gov.uk/npw-nym-rosedale.jpg

http://www.nymr.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/whitby.jpg

Makes me quite homesick!

DSJR

05-08-2010, 09:57

Back to ellipticals. I'm sure I read that that the famous EMI units were very well thought of in their day.

The first time I heard a proper hifi playing "prog" was in HMV's Bond St branch. They used a Thorens 150, Quad 33/303 and B&W DM1's for many years and it was a superb system for the well recorded early Yes LP's.

Labarum

05-08-2010, 10:51

Back to ellipticals.

OK. Knuckles rapped by Uncle Dave. :)

HighFidelityGuy

05-08-2010, 15:09

A friend of mine has some Mordaunt Short bookshelf speakers with elliptical drivers. They sounded pretty good running off a Cambridge audio A1 mk3 and had a suprising amount of bass authority for such a small speaker. I guess they must have been the 800 series that Adam mentioned.

spendorman

05-08-2010, 22:17

That was my point. I also wondered if a an elliptical cone might be stiffer, stronger and have less, or less pronounced resonances - given that its dimensions are very variable.

I am old enough to remember the DIY Paraline loudspeaker - did that use an elliptical?

Recommended units were Elac 8N148 (which was superseded by the 8N185), both of which were nice sounding paper cone 8" (round) units. The only other recommended unit was the Lowther PM6.

A few watts into Paralines was equivalent to many more watts into the more conventional speaker.

Ali Tait

08-08-2010, 10:31

If they are more difficult to make,why are they so common in car audio then?

hifi_dave

08-08-2010, 10:45

Err....:doh:

Good point

Ali Tait

08-08-2010, 10:50

What was that speaker they chucked a cheap 6 by 9 in,gave it a nice veneer,called it a full range driver and charged thousands for?

hifi_dave

08-08-2010, 10:56

Give us a clue ???

As for ellipticals, I still believe they are seldom seen because very few speaker manufacturers have the wherewithal to produce their own drivers. They buy in drivers from the likes of Peerless, Audax etc and stuff them in a box. Naturally, if these speaker driver manufacturers don't produce ellipticals, we are unlikely to see them in production speakers.

Ali Tait

08-08-2010, 11:04

Can't remember the maker.I remember thinking at the time what a rip-off.They did get found out.

Stratmangler

08-08-2010, 11:14

Can't remember the maker.I remember thinking at the time what a rip-off.They did get found out.

Thing is Ali, put summat in a nice bling box and chuck it out in the marketplace and you can get away with murder in the realms of "High End Audio".

How many amps have you heard that look a total bag o' shite but make wonderful sounds ?
Plenty on breadboard I'd have thought ;)

Reid Malenfant

08-08-2010, 16:02

What was that speaker they chucked a cheap 6 by 9 in,gave it a nice veneer,called it a full range driver and charged thousands for?
Could it be this you are thinking of? (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Resolution-SUHTL-X-Loudspeakers-Mahogany-/300375425265?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_HiFiSpea kers&hash=item45efc540f1) :lolsign: :lol:

Cheap car driver :ner:

Not exactly normal use for a car audio speaker either, i'm sure he hasn't sold any to date & these have been on ebay for well over a year ;)

Ali Tait

08-08-2010, 16:47

Thing is Ali, put summat in a nice bling box and chuck it out in the marketplace and you can get away with murder in the realms of "High End Audio".

How many amps have you heard that look a total bag o' shite but make wonderful sounds ?
Plenty on breadboard I'd have thought ;)

Well you just have to look at some of Nick's creations.Look like something off a rubbish dump,but sound sublime.. :lol:

Ali Tait

08-08-2010, 16:49

Could it be this you are thinking of? (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Resolution-SUHTL-X-Loudspeakers-Mahogany-/300375425265?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_HiFiSpea kers&hash=item45efc540f1) :lolsign: :lol:

Cheap & nasty car driver :ner:

Piece of cr*p, i'm fairly sure he hasn't sold any to date & these have been on ebay for well over a year ;)

Dat's dem!

aquapiranha

08-08-2010, 17:47

While i agree with the sentiments expressed, the chap in question who markets the suhtl speakers has in the past threatened action against forum owners who have had them mentioned in a bad light on the forum, my advice? tread carefully. :rolleyes:

Reid Malenfant

08-08-2010, 17:53

aquapiranha

08-08-2010, 17:56

Ali Tait

08-08-2010, 18:00

If I state clearly that it's just my opinion,there's bugger all he can do.

Reid Malenfant

08-08-2010, 18:02

I have no idea. Suffice to say I know of one forum where it is forbidden to even mention them at all. As I said, I personally find that hard to swallow, after all they have been proven use a JVC car speaker in a nice box...
I'd have been much more impressed if they happened to use something like a Tannoy 8" dual concentric rather than what you mentioned.

We all know, or should that an 8" in a transmission line can give superb results - PMC speakers spring to mind :) I'm not too sure of the model number but they manage a fairly flat response to 20Hz (& at a decent volume level) in room ;)

aquapiranha

08-08-2010, 18:03

Quite. Having owned PMC myself I am inclined to agree, allbeit the TB2S+ with the smaller driver

Labarum

08-08-2010, 18:08

Are there not many examples of DIY designs using "full range" drivers in transmission line enclosures?

And some made by small manufacturers.

The driver being round, of course.

Reid Malenfant

08-08-2010, 18:15

Are there not many examples of DIY designs using "full range" drivers in transmission line enclosures?

And some made by small manufacturers.

The driver being round, of course.
I think you'll find far more that are loaded into rear horns, off hand i can't think of a single driver transmission line. I have seen loads of rear horns using Lowther & Fostex units though & other more exotic drivers :)

aquapiranha

08-08-2010, 18:57

I know IPL (?) make TL kits at least.

Ali Tait

08-08-2010, 19:32

Are there not many examples of DIY designs using "full range" drivers in transmission line enclosures?

And some made by small manufacturers.

The driver being round, of course.

Yes quite a few.I have a pair of MLTL's with a Fostex Fe167e,used with a Fostex FT17H supertweeter.Very nice they sound too,and incidentally they used to belong to the designer.

Labarum

08-08-2010, 19:34

And the Fostex drivers are very cheap!

aquapiranha

08-08-2010, 19:35

And the Fostex drivers are very cheap!

Yes, but VERY good VFM.

Labarum

08-08-2010, 19:37

Yes, but VERY good VFM.

So I have read.

Ali Tait

08-08-2010, 20:12

Cheap compared to the likes of Lowther say,but still not chicken feed!

Tripmaster

09-08-2010, 16:46

Ahem...Bob Brines FT-1600 Mk2 Speakers (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3648) :eek:

Reid Malenfant

09-08-2010, 16:57

Cheap compared to the likes of Lowther say,but still not chicken feed!
That depends on the drivers, some of the limited edition drivers are nearly as rare as hens teeth & cost just about the same as expensive Lowthers :)

I remember being asked by a chap in the US to keep an eye open for a certain pair he was after, he was willing to pay what seemed to me an astronomical price of around $1000 secondhand :eek:

Just looked in my email, they were/are FE208ES-R drivers ;)

Ali Tait

09-08-2010, 17:12

You could get AER's for that kind of money.

Macca

10-08-2010, 22:22

I have no idea. Suffice to say I know of one forum where it is forbidden to even mention them at all. As I said, I personally find that hard to swallow, after all they appear to use a JVC car speaker in a nice box...

http://carview-img02.bmcdn.jp/minkara/parts/000/002/698/062/2698062/p1.jpg

and...

http://i11.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/79/d2/e43b_3.JPG

Reminds me of the V Capel transmission line speaker that used an elliptical full range driver ( I forget what but no doubt no longer available). I considered this many years ago using elliptical JBL 3 way drivers - never got round to it.

The JBLs were not cheap - about £150 per driver this is in 1994 - just becasue they are marketed for use in vehicles does not mean they are rubbish

aquapiranha

10-08-2010, 23:00

Hi Martin. The JVC drivers used in that one are (were) £29.99. Doesn't mean they are crap but doesn't go anywhere near explaining the value of the finished product either!

I used to work in car audio so I know what kind of quality can be had, (KEF KAR, Canton, Boston, Rainbow etc)

Macca

13-08-2010, 20:45