View Full Version : Caiman puzzle
So I've recently bought a Denon DVD2900 player - it was on 'the other forum' and going cheap, and I needed one to replace my cruddy el-cheapo DVD. For those not familiar, the 2900 is one of their high-end DVD/SACD/CD players. Cost about £800 new.
I thought I'd hook it up to the hifi to make sure it worked. Blow me it sounds good - analogue out of the Denon straight in to amp. Clearer definition. More presence.
So last night me and the SO did a blind test - DVD2900 vs Sony 303ES/Caiman. DVD won, by some margin.
Then I hooked the DVD up to the Caiman (co-axial with one of Mike's leads) and tried it, whilst simultaneously running it straight analogue in to amp. We could hear no discernable difference...:scratch:
So... I'm now trying to find out if the 2900 really is that good, the 303ES is very bad, or the Caiman isn't working at 100%.
Any thoughts?
Jason
Stratmangler
04-08-2010, 10:15
The DVD2900 was well regarded in its day - I've heard it said that the models brought out to replace it did not sound as good.
I'd suggest that your Caiman is working fine, and the Denon is a better transport than the Sony.
I'd heard the DACs in the 2900 were top-notch, and apparently it's all optimised for audio playback - there is a switch on the front panel to turn off all extraneous outputs (video and/or digital out) and switch off the associated circuitry to maximise sound quality. Must play with that soon!
What surprised me most was the lack of difference between 2900 thru Caiman and 2900 straight. I've been using the Caiman with the Sony via Toslink - does the coax input on the Caiman need burning in separately, or is it just the output that needs a few hundred hours to warm up?
Jason
Stratmangler
04-08-2010, 11:10
The coax cable itself can make a difference - what one are you using ?
I use one of Stan's myself.
Stratmangler
04-08-2010, 11:20
Do you have the Caiman PSU ?
If not that on its own would make a big difference.
I'd also recommend having a play with the passive output mod.
does the coax input on the Caiman need burning in separately
According to Stan, each input needs separate burning in, from memory... Only another 195 hours to go! ;)
Hi Chris,
I do have the proper Caiman PSU, and the co-ax is one of Mike Homar's creations. So should be fine.
Might have a look at the passive output mod...
Jason
According to Stan, each input needs separate burning in, from memory... Only another 195 hours to go! ;)
Ahh well, at least I can tell the missus it's a requirement, rather than me being bone idle!
Jason
StanleyB
04-08-2010, 13:10
What surprised me most was the lack of difference between 2900 thru Caiman and 2900 straight.
Nothing a mod or two can't fix;).
Thanks for that Stan, I thought that might be the case! Don't get me wrong, very happy with the Caiman - and I'm sure it'll get better if the coax needs burning in.
What do you reccommend as a start for the mods?
Jason
Hey Jason,
I found the Passive Output mod gave an immediate, obvious improvement.....and that was even with the Output Caps and regulators upgraded.
I'd go with the passive putput mod first..no need to upgrade opamps if you do!
Oh, for info..
http://www.sacdmods.com/DVD2900.htm
Hey Jason,
I found the Passive Output mod gave an immediate, obvious improvement.....and that was even with the Output Caps and regulators upgraded.
I'd go with the passive putput mod first..no need to upgrade opamps if you do!
Oh, for info..
http://www.sacdmods.com/DVD2900.htm
I'm curious.. has anyone tried the passive output mod Without having done the previous mods first?? I just sold my 7520 with upgraded opamps and planned on ordering the Caiman and have Stan ship it to Tirna first, but I'm trying to figure which are best mods (don't want to do the expensive regulator one). I use it as a preamp driving NAD 272 into Von Schweikert VR2s, and driving my AKG 702s. Thoughts??
Doug,
the passive output mod takes less than 5 minutes to do and is easily reversible - no soldering required.
Why not have a go and see what you think?
Gaz.
That's cool. Don't have it yet Gaz... before I have it shipped over the pond, are the other non-Murata mods Tirna does worth it. Do you like their opamp choice?
Ali Tait
05-08-2010, 07:35
I have a 7510 that I've performed part of mod21 on,apart from that it is stock.The passive mod makes a big difference as Gary says,and he has heard my dac with and without a regulated linear supply.The diference is not subtle,and I'd say a linear supply makes as great an improvement as the passive mod,so IMO the best bang for your buck is to do the passive mod and fit a linear supply.
I think some serious research needs to be done on this "burn-in" issue. It just shouldn't happen these days or NEED to happen. Someone on the naim forum was claiming NINE MONTHS for their expensive DAC to "burn in" FFS!!!!! :(
Maybe a Caiman 2 or Caiman Plus style DAC is needed now since there are now many tricks that can be done to improve it. Fully tricked out, it would still cost far less than £500 if all the things were done, especially if these things were done as much as possible at the factory.
That's cool. Don't have it yet Gaz... before I have it shipped over the pond, are the other non-Murata mods Tirna does worth it. Do you like their opamp choice?
Hey Doug,
The passive output mod was the last one I did, before that I had upgraded my Opamps, the stock output caps to Rubicon Bipolar ones, and fitted Elna SLimics to upgrade some of the caps on board.
All of these made a good improvement, but not as much as fitting the Mutara Regs.
As the passive output mod basically removes the output board (with any upgraded opamps, caps etc) any upgrades apart from the Mutara regs and Slimic II's will be unnecessary.
If it were me, I'd get your Caiman fitted with Mutara regs (big difference) and Elna Slimic caps on the main board, then do the passive output mod. Then get a linear supply at 15v in there.
To my ears the passive mod had an obviously greater effect than tweaking opamps and upgrading the output caps in my opinion, especially with the Mutara regs in place.
Hope this helps!
I have a 7510 that I've performed part of mod21 on,apart from that it is stock.The passive mod makes a big difference as Gary says,and he has heard my dac with and without a regulated linear supply.The diference is not subtle,and I'd say a linear supply makes as great an improvement as the passive mod,so IMO the best bang for your buck is to do the passive mod and fit a linear supply.
Yup, Ali's 7510 with the passive mod got close to the sound of my Caiman...so I think this mod is a bit of a "leveller" between the two Dacs?
I was shocked frankly at the level of difference between his 7510 with and without a linear supply...BUT how much of this improvement would be offset by having the mutara regs in place I dont know...possibly not as much?
I'm going to get a linear supply (the one suggested by Stan) and will report back on how (if indeed it does) improve my dac, with passive output mod, mutara regs and Elna Slimics.
One interesting thing, is that someone else has reported a custom DIY supply with quality components brings about SUBTLE improvements with a Mutara'd Dac...so I'd not feel Im missing out getting the cheaper Maplin based supply.
I agree 100% with Ali, passive mod with linear supply, but get the Muara's and Elna Slimic's in there too!
Then sit back and enjoy. :)
Stratmangler
05-08-2010, 10:30
The only messing around I've done with my Caiman to date is to try the passive mod - I've pulled out the opamp board and done a bit of capacitor rolling.
Favourite caps so far ?
It's a toss up between Nichicon NKZ and Nichicon NFG.
StanleyB
05-08-2010, 12:10
Maybe a Caiman 2 or Caiman Plus style DAC is needed now since there are now many tricks that can be done to improve it. .
There is a Caiman+ already out ;). It's the one without the USB PCB, which has been replaced with an extra TOSLINK input instead.
I have been often been accused of releasing a new DAC every other week. They were in fact the TC-7510 with the latest mods fitted, but it caused a lot of negative publicity for me. So now I make only one version of each DAC, and publish details of any mods I find useful in my own set up. That has helped me avoid being accused of releasing a new Caiman every other week :).
Ali Tait
05-08-2010, 12:44
Stan,I reckon a valve output Caiman with all the current mods would be a good seller.
StanleyB
05-08-2010, 12:54
You think it would gain me more 'glowing' reports?
You think it would gain me more 'glowing' reports?
NOT as a comedian!!:lol:
HighFidelityGuy
05-08-2010, 15:16
I'd say the passive output mod gave me the biggest improvement and it's also the cheapest mod by far as long as you don't use boutique capacitors. I'd say the Nichicon Muse and Rubycon NA bi-polar caps are both fantastic value. If you do the mod by inserting the caps in the socket where the opamp board goes then you can easily undo it any time. You do loose the headphone output though. You can read through the thread HERE (http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6910)
There is a Caiman+ already out ;). It's the one without the USB PCB, which has been replaced with an extra TOSLINK input instead.
I have been often been accused of releasing a new DAC every other week. They were in fact the TC-7510 with the latest mods fitted, but it caused a lot of negative publicity for me. So now I make only one version of each DAC, and publish details of any mods I find useful in my own set up. That has helped me avoid being accused of releasing a new Caiman every other week :).
Actually Stan, I'm waiting eagerly for your next DAC which you have indicated for release by year end. Is there any news you can share with us on this?
Ali Tait
05-08-2010, 18:01
You think it would gain me more 'glowing' reports?
Arf! I do think it would be a good idea though.When Gary came round,we compared his modded Caiman to my modded 7510 and AN dac zero.The AN was better,with a more 3d soundstage and better vocals,which I reckon were down to the valve output stage (and the SCR teflon output caps...) so I think it may be a worthwhile upgade for the Caiman.
Quick read tells me that the passive mod isn't for me as I use mine as a pre-amp (variable out) and headphone amp. Correct? Then I'll look at the others. Do others agree that the regulator mod is the most important (fairly expensive compared to the rest).
StanleyB
06-08-2010, 10:12
There are several versions of the passive mod. The one with the wires inserted into the holes of the line out IC socket will maintain the headphone output and the variable output. The variable output will however be about 3dB lower.
Tripmaster
06-08-2010, 22:03
Someone on the naim forum was claiming NINE MONTHS for their expensive DAC to "burn in" FFS!!!!! :(
.
Hi Dave
This is not directed to you, but what a load of c..p! :)
Could someone please help point me to any links explaining how to suss out the passive mods and what not for the 7510 & Caiman (I got both)
Cheers !
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