View Full Version : Advantages of Active Speakers - Please Explain & Discuss!
I was going to post this in reply on Hamish's thread about DIY Active speakers, but with hindsight, and given the interest in the subject, I think the theory needs a whole new thread.
Can someone explain in lay-man's terms why an active configuration is so much better than passive? To my simplistic mind, you are trading one set of comprises for another - you're getting rid of speaker cables, but instead increasing the length of the interconnect considerably, and then stuffing all your electronics (amps) right where they can interfere most with (or be interfered by) the drivers and cabinets?
Given how much importance is put on here by some quarters to things like isolating components, microphony etc, to an electronic simpleton like me I can't see how active should be so much better - so what have I missed in my basic theory?
The Vinyl Adventure
01-08-2010, 11:29
I don't know a great deal about it but in my speakers the crossover comes before the amplification.
This means I have an amp per driver ... The high frequency driver is driven by an amp designed for that exact driver. Same for low frequency driver.
I have effectively got 4 power amps powering a pair of speakers with no componants inbetween amp and speaker like ther is when a passive crossover is used
I think there is a few more advantages too.
My little diy project wont be quite as elegant, as the amps arnt designed with the exact drivers in mind as in my Adams ... But it should be fun anyway
.
Can someone explain in lay-man's terms why an active configuration is so much better than passive? To my simplistic mind, you are trading one set of comprises for another - you're getting rid of speaker cables, but instead increasing the length of the interconnect considerably, and then stuffing all your electronics (amps) right where they can interfere most with (or be interfered by) the drivers and cabinets?
Given how much importance is put on here by some quarters to things like isolating components, microphony etc, to an electronic simpleton like me I can't see how active should be so much better - so what have I missed in my basic theory?
The amps don't have to be inside the cabs - that's just for convenience and in theory it will degrade sound quality a little. A friend of mine has some active Meridian stand mounters but they are not all that IMHO.
The Grand Wazoo
01-08-2010, 11:47
Because all of the signal manipulation is done straight after the preamp, the power amps are directly connected to the drive units. The active way gives much more control and grip to the sound. The biggest gains are to be had in actively driven bass.
The Vinyl Adventure
01-08-2010, 11:47
I the amps are in the speakers there is v little speaker cable... Isn't that a "pro" ... Although I would easily accept that amps inside speakers could be a "con"
I have my bass active and mid and treble passive works well for me
The Vinyl Adventure
01-08-2010, 12:33
i think my adams can be bought as semi active speakers... ...
Bass to tweeter crossovers are in the most sensitive area of our hearing and the effects of passive crossovers especially (nasty phase/impedance issues and driver overlap) are clearly measurable and audible too. Some VERY careful work has to be done in the design to mask these effects as they cannot be removed completely. In a big passive three way, the crossover is right in the middle of the vocal region most often and the driver overlap can cause smearing and phase effects. Again, VERY careful design is needed in the crossover. The amp will have a difficult time too with all the crossover components to deal with.
I'm not saying the above is a total disaster, but actively driven drivers (with properly designed powered crossovers before the amps) make it so much easier. The fact that the amps can be economically configured to drive *just* the frequency range and drivers used saves money too, the old Linn and Naim way of a stack of boxes, miles of extra wiring and £'s and £'s being spent is outrageous, inefficient and basically profit driven IMO.
Properly designed amps can easily be used inside the the speaker cabinet and in fact Spendor and ATC had separate chambers built in for their powered and active designs, which actually helped with cabinet rigidity (in the case of the ATC's anyway).
Active hasn't caught on in "domestic HiFi circles" because it's all done for you, so there's no messing around involved. I love "messing around," so I have no trouble resisting a pair of ADM9.1's or similar for now. I do feel it's the proper way forward and the increased interest in the speakers available in pro audio shops is testament to this I think, although many cheaper pro active speakers are balanced a bit too "relentless" for relaxed listening, as the amps can be nasty things and the treble set too high. Get it right though and the results on all sources can be astonishing IMO.
The Vinyl Adventure
01-08-2010, 13:16
Yeah, the Adams amps are technically on the outside of the actual cabinet
Steve Toy
01-08-2010, 13:54
so I have no trouble resisting a pair of ADM9.1's or similar for now. I
Easy to resist on account of the unremarkable sound quality.
The Vinyl Adventure
01-08-2010, 13:58
I'm getting deja vu
I'm getting deja vu
Crosby, Stiils, Nash and Young?
bolzTSDdOa8
Hypnotoad
01-08-2010, 15:36
You still need a crossover in both designs. An active one is preferred though.
In a bi-amped system for example you have an amp that handles only the lower registers and another that handles everything above that.
You can also tailor the frequency response more easily than with a passive crossover.
Reid Malenfant
01-08-2010, 17:56
Simply put an active system gets rid of one of the real problematic areas of standard loudspeakers, that is unless you happen to listen to full range drive units. It gets rid of the passive crossover which causes all sorts of nasties. You have dirty great big inductors & capacitors & both of these store energy which can & will be released into not only the drive units but also the amplifier.
Both cause problems, in the speaker it'll cause distortion, whether this is due to possible component saturation or because the stored energy is being released when it shouldn't be. In the amp a crossover makes a speaker more difficult to drive due to phase shift caused by the components & again the components storing power :rolleyes:
As has been mentioned you'd need seperate amplifiers to drive each driver which costs more, but there are massive advantages! If you listen at a loud volume & the amp driving the bass driver clips there is absolutely no effect on the amp driving the tweeter. In a normal loudspeaker the tweeter voice coil is likely to become melted slag in a very short time indeed as the clipping generates enormous power in the high frequecy spectrum.
Active crossovers generally have far less distortion than any passive crossover could ever attain. A passive may well generate 1% or more dependant on signal level, where as a decent active crossover will be way down at the same kind of level as a top flight pre amp at 0.002% if designed well.
Another benefit of active is that for the same amplifier power the active system will be capable of being driven to a much higher level. This is because most power is in the bass end of the spectrum & if you are driving a passive speaker there might not be much in the way of voltage swing that the amp can deliver to the tweeter.
Finally with an active system you can delay the signal to the tweeter (or midrange if fitted) to time align all the divers so that it sounds as if only a single driver is doing the job. This is done by delaying the signal so that all the voice coils appear to be inline sonically.
Hope that helps explain things a little better :)
Easy to resist on account of the unremarkable sound quality.
When you've weaned yourself off the squeakers you own then maybe I'll begin to take you seriously :ner: :lol:
Simply put an active system gets rid of one of the real problematic areas of standard loudspeakers, that is unless you happen to listen to full range drive units. It gets rid of the passive crossover which causes all sorts of nasties. You have dirty great big inductors & capacitors & both of these store energy which can & will be released into not only the drive units but also the amplifier.
Both cause problems, in the speaker it'll cause distortion, whether this is due to possible component saturation or because the stored energy is being released when it shouldn't be. In the amp a crossover makes a speaker more difficult to drive due to phase shift caused by the components & again the components storing power :rolleyes:
As has been mentioned you'd need seperate amplifiers to drive each driver which costs more, but there are massive advantages! If you listen at a loud volume & the amp driving the bass driver clips there is absolutely no effect on the amp driving the tweeter. In a normal loudspeaker the tweeter voice coil is likely to become melted slag in a very short time indeed as the clipping generates enormous power in the high frequecy spectrum.
Active crossovers generally have far less distortion than any passive crossover could ever attain. A passive may well generate 1% or more dependant on signal level, where as a decent active crossover will be way down at the same kind of level as a top flight pre amp at 0.002% if designed well.
Another benefit of active is that for the same amplifier power the active system will be capable of being driven to a much higher level. This is because most power is in the bass end of the spectrum & if you are driving a passive speaker there might not be much in the way of voltage swing that the amp can deliver to the tweeter.
Finally with an active system you can delay the signal to the tweeter (or midrange if fitted) to time align all the divers so that it sounds as if only a single driver is doing the job. This is done by delaying the signal so that all the voice coils appear to be inline sonically.
Hope that helps explain things a little better :)
I should add that the apparent complexity of time-aligning in an active circuit is as nothing compared to the losses and phase distortion in many, if not all passive speakers.
Most decent actives tend to put the onus firmly back on the drive units and amps used, so there's still a fair way to go I think..
When you've weaned yourself off the squeakers you own then maybe I'll begin to take you seriously...
They still piss all over those diddy little toy computer speakers, active or not! :trust:
Marco.
Marco, you don't have real-world speakers and I doubt very many Lockwood Majors were made, let alone now in domestic service, although I could be wrong.
I haven't heard *them,* neither have you, and I reserve absolute judgement until I have. But then, you and Steve wouldn't like the Spendors I suspect..... :)
Anyway, how was your Techie compared to the Rubikon LP12?
Reid Malenfant
01-08-2010, 18:50
I should add that the apparent complexity of time-aligning in an active circuit is as nothing compared to the losses and phase distortion in many, if not all passive speakers.
Most decent actives tend to put the onus firmly back on the drive units and amps used, so there's still a fair way to go I think..
It's dead easy with active, nearly impossible with passive which i think is what you are implying ;)
In an active system all that would be needed to time align would be (if i remember correctly) up to 4 resistors, 1 capacitor & a single operation amplifier. No harder to design than a second order high or low pass filter :)
Hi Dave,
Marco, you don't have real-world speakers and I doubt very many Lockwood Majors were made, let alone now in domestic service, although I could be wrong.
Indeed. I don't do much "real world" in any part of my system! ;)
I haven't heard *them,* neither have you, and I reserve absolute judgement until I have.
Quite, but I don't really need to hear them to know that they'll sound pretty much like any other pair of diddy-sized little boxes, no matter how 'expertly' or otherwise they're designed. You can't defy the laws of physics.
I'm not really into tiny bookshelf-sized speakers, Dave - end of, no matter how 'good' they are. When you're used to listening to high-quality 15" Tannoy DCs in huge purpose-built cabinets, anything smaller and less capable just sounds 'indistinct' and way too compromised in the areas that matter to me most.....
In fact, I'd take what the Celestions in my lounge do with music over ADM9s, any day.... At least they use 8" drivers in half-decent sized cabinets, and only cost me £260! :eyebrows:
Steve's Hecos, despite not being quite to my taste, still possess a goodly dose of the weight and scale I demand from recorded music (along with the requisite 'musicality' I seek, on the end of his superb source and control components), which no diddy little boxes with single piddling 6.5" drivers could hope to muster. And don't bother mentioning subwoofers, as out with of AV, I hate those with a passion.
But then, you and Steve wouldn't like the Spendors I suspect.....
Why not? Steve likes some Spendors, and I used to own SP100s...... I also love BC1s, and every model in Spendor's current 'Classic' range.
Anyway, how was your Techie compared to the Rubikon LP12?
Unfortunately I couldn't make it as one of our cats (of 19 years) was seriously ill and died the day I was due to go to Andrew's, so as you will appreciate, my mind was otherwise occupied :(
Andrew and I plan to do it again though soon :cool:
Marco.
Amazing.
Apparently there are no advantages to active speakers unless they are not diddly size.
How bloody amazing.
The passion on these audio forums always amazes me.
Thanks everyone. think I get it :)
Hi Dave,
Unfortunately I couldn't make it as one of our cats (of 19 years) was seriously ill and died the day I was due to go to Andrew's, so as you will appreciate, my mind was otherwise occupied :(
Marco.
Oh crap :(
So sorry to hear this Marco. Hope the others will give you comfort and that you may have another little furry friend soon to join the "family."
Back to topic, I'm not sure I'd want another active speaker in my system, as I need to relax with my music. I'm convinced I'm getting a better sound now than I was when I owned my first pair of BC1's in 1976 :)
May not be saying much, but a Croft driven Harbeth P3ESR sounded every bit as good in the midrange as the ATC 20ASL Pro's I sold last November, the bass was better balanced despite their tiny size and the Harbeth tweeter implementation was in a different league, being sweet and delicate compared to the ATC's Vifa splatter-n-spit. I understand ATC have finally got their new, third generation tweeter sorted and about time too.
I get really mad when good and carefully designed passive speakers are so derided elsewhere *just* because they're passively driven. For now, I'm sticking to me ancient "museum piece" Spendors.
Amazing.
Apparently there are no advantages to active speakers unless they are not diddly size.
How bloody amazing.
Bugger... that was a red-wine fueled remark, for which I apologise.
The passion on these audio forums always amazes me.
Especially when people are discussing speakers they haven't actually heard!
The Grand Wazoo
01-08-2010, 22:05
Well, I think they're actually discussing a person they have heard, but have anthropomorphised that persons speakers into their creator.
Well, I think they're actually discussing a person they have heard, but have anthropomorphised that persons speakers into their creator.
.. and so we begin to understand
Guys,
At the end of the day, whether you've heard them or not, a pair of diddy-sized standmounts with teensy-weensy 6.5" drivers will always sound like a pair of diddy-sized standmounts with teensy-weensy 6.5" drivers, active or passive, no matter how 'super-duper' they are, whether sold by an arrogant and blinkered twat, or not........... ;)
And if you aren't into diddy-sized speakers with teensy-weensy drivers, then that particular dish will remain absent from your menu!
Marco.
P.S Dave, thanks for your kind remarks about our cat :)
What about teensy weensy 6.5" drivers in big 1/4 wave floorstanding boxes? My Howards have good bass.
P.S. sorry about you cat Marco, lost ours 2 years ago - mauled by a rotty.
The Vinyl Adventure
02-08-2010, 05:27
I too am sorry to hear about your cat marco!
The Vinyl Adventure
02-08-2010, 05:59
Why does every conversation about active speakers have to turn into a convo about some chap who makes one particular pair.... My actives have absolutly nothing to do with this chap (at least as far as I know and would sencibly guess) and I imagine many actives don't!
Honestly, and I mean this with respect, this consistent return to adm9.1's comes accros as blinkered.
There are more than one brand of actives, I think it is a MASSIVE shame that this one bloke has seemingly destroyed a market place for an entire speaker solution to an entire audiophile demographic!
I'm all for thread drift, but in this instance I don't think it is in anyway productive, and it's getting really old!
Rant over :)
Evangelical mode "on"
If I think back, I have actually realised that every system I have ever really liked, or been supprised by has been active...
The naim ref active dbl system I always bang on about, left a equally priced passive system for dust on the same day, in the next room...
The first time I heard Adam speakers when I heard the alphas for the first time.... I wondered on that day if I had at last heard something that I prefered to the active dbl's (at a third of the cost)
The little dynaudio bm5a's that took me by supprise when I first heard them....
Unfortunatly it has only recently occurred to me that, this was the common link between them... The naim active system is of course very different to behold than "modern" active systems...
I'm not suggesting that the active sound is for everyone... But if I had worked out the connection sooner I would have saved my self a lot of stress! I would suggest every one gives actives a fair go.... To me they have a distinctive sound, but that sound to my ear be it from £120,000 worth of naim or £35,000 or £4,800 of Adam or indeed £700 of dynaudio, they have all sounded significantly more realistic sounding than any other solution I have yet heard at the same price point... And in terms of the Adams vastly more practical in the average home.
I told you I was going to get evangelical about it.... But to give you some perspective... I have never been satisfied with my hifi until I got Adams... I haven't had a bad day with them since I have owned them, I have literally forgotten about my main hifi and just look forward to listening to music.... I have never had that before, ever!
And now through not being able to afford to keep my valve amp and get a pair of custom built single driver speakers to go with it... I'm now trying to emulate the active system on a buget in my second system using a pair of speakers that bare a striking similarity to the bm5a's ... ...
The Vinyl Adventure
02-08-2010, 06:01
Bugger... that was a red-wine fueled remark, for which I apologise.
:lol:
Hi Hamish
I think its mostly banter between Dave Steve and Marco and yes sometimes get in the way
I agree actives can be really nice. Before I got my latest speakers I heard some big ATC actives, very dynamic indeed but I perfer the choice I made as creates a more holographic sound and is closer to the illusion of live music and I still have the dynamics plus cleaner bass, its all horses for courses no one right way....but great to see that passion you have for your speakers.
I heard Marco Lockwoods and they are pretty good too I would love to hear Alis Stats I reckon they be pretty good I heard Chris Ushers in a different system and was pretty impressed with them too.I imagine Martins system to be sublime I could go on.
I think what you got is something that really works for your system, but other approaches work well too.
The Vinyl Adventure
02-08-2010, 07:00
I'm not saying they don't ... Perhaps I should be more liberal with my "for me" and "in my system" and "IMHO" type comments... I'm not saying it is the only aproach, I'm just saying it is a shame it seems less popular based on my experience :) ... There must be others who would find the same as me, but coming on many forums would never find the advice to look into to it... I'm just doing my bit to readress the balance... In a slightly evangelical way... Like marco does for his big ass dual concentric custom tannoys ...
(marco I trust you won't take offence to my accusation of evangelism, it's not meant to be offencive in the slightest)
As for adm9.1's ... Well im just sick of hearing about the bloody things for any basis of convo about actives.... They are one pair, and in consistency with my trying to readress the balance, I don't think it's fair to taint all other actives with the same brush... Especialy when the comments are being made by such prominent members... Sorry to bitch ... But guys, let it go, no one is forcing you to buy adm9.1's ... Although I suspect in a meeting between marco and dave, dave might chuck a 9.1 at marcos head and marco might clout dave with a large dual concentric driver whilst shouting "that's not a speaker ... This is a speaker" .... And you should watch out dave, I hear on the grapevine marco has his rabbits trained like them pigs that eat dead people...
Hamish you doing you bit now and agree active are a great way to go
I could say the same about Open baffles Hamish when done well they are very special, just visit Owston next time to hear what they can do.
I love dynamics and timing but I also enjoy the fluidness of valves and for me it would be to big of a sacrifice
The Vinyl Adventure
02-08-2010, 09:37
.... Re read my posts from this morning, sorry it all sounds to preachy... I am having a bout of migraines that's putting me I a grump... Still, i stand by the content, even if the delivery is a bit off character ...
And I am really sorry to hear about the cat marco
no worries Hamish hope the migrane is gone
At least now Actives has more than one strong voice here
Haselsh1
02-08-2010, 11:19
The finest system I have ever heard was around 1982 and consisted of Mission 720's activated with Crimson Electric amplifiers and Crimson Electric custom built crossovers. The source was my Logic DM101 setup. Sound wise it was incredibly impressive and very dramatic.
Haselsh1
02-08-2010, 11:21
.... Re read my posts from this morning, sorry it all sounds to preachy... I am having a bout of migraines that's putting me I a grump... Still, i stand by the content, even if the delivery is a bit off character ...
And I am really sorry to hear about the cat marco
Hamish, I get some really bad migraines but only when I eat chocolate... so I don't anymore. I only get the jagged flashing lights and eyes that feel as though they have a cold. I don't get the awful sickness and headache. I really do sympathise with you.
Techno Commander
02-08-2010, 12:00
Sorry to hear about the loss of your cat marco. Having lost ours just over a year ago (I had to bury her on my birthday, which was a shitter), I know what you must be feeling.
The Vinyl Adventure
02-08-2010, 12:01
cheers buddy, mine is down to my back... i mostly get them when im busy with my photography, the d3 with a 70-200 is a heavy beast to hang round a neck ... i try not to hang it round my neck but even just squatting with it puts my posture in a position it doesnt like.... had a nine hour wedding job on saturday and a 5 hour one last thursday .... not a happy spine is mine....
i get the disturbed vision, followe by confusion and nausea for about 5 hours then a nagging head ache that lasts about a week... im lucky not to get the dibilitating headache that some people get... still a shitter though... especailly when it happens twice in 5 days over the time i have 2 weddings ....
i really need to get my back sorted but worcester has no nhs chiropractor so its £30 for 15 mins of spine cracking once a week for about 3 months... which i just cant afford!
Try a Cranial Osteopath they work wonders
No back cracking and slightly drunk feeling afterwards
As for adm9.1's ... Well im just sick of hearing about the bloody things for any basis of convo about actives.... They are one pair, and in consistency with my trying to readress the balance, I don't think it's fair to taint all other actives with the same brush... Especialy when the comments are being made by such prominent members... Sorry to bitch ... But guys, let it go, no one is forcing you to buy adm9.1's ... Although I suspect in a meeting between marco and dave, dave might chuck a 9.1 at marcos head and marco might clout dave with a large dual concentric driver whilst shouting "that's not a speaker ... This is a speaker" .... And you should watch out dave, I hear on the grapevine marco has his rabbits trained like them pigs that eat dead people...
:lolsign:
Marco and I have discussed this by phone and we both know what's what regarding these speakers and the company individuals that designed and marketed them.
The little Harbeths I refer to have 5" bass units and modern design has ensured that despite losing efficiency to get some bass extension in line with the laws of physics, that bass unit in that design goes surprisingly loud before "doubling" takes place and the midrange at normal levels is truly sublime, absolutely trashing what the LS3/5A could do thirty odd years ago.
The trouble with actives on the domestic market is how to price them. Apparently, Adam were thrilled to bits 'cos they can increase everyone's margins with "domestic" versions. Dynaudio seem to do the same, as the active model used by the BBC these days is around £1500pr unless I'm mistaken.
The thing is, far eastern made drive units can be very good and only cost a tenner each (or less) when bought in bulk - same for the cabs and the amps are cheap enough if sourced there ("that" active uses far eastern boxes and drivers and UK made electronics, the final assembly being done here in the UK). As a result, speakers like the £250 Behringers (for example) could be really good and far better than, say, a pair of B&W601/KEF IQ whatever driven by a NAD or Arcam amp, the total being several hundred. No "hifi" dealer would wish to sell a £250pr active setup that was at least as good and with negligible margins of probably 25% tops when the traditional audio dealer margin (not markup) has been 37 - 45% for cheaper mass-market stuff.
Excuse the jumbled paragraphs above. No speaker can defy the laws of physics, but as techniques have improved, it's amazing what small speakers can appear to do - up to a point (those Harbeths, despite being passive, have been VERY carefully researched and designed by someone with superb understanding IMO).. Using smaller cabinets/drivers in active mode does increase the efficiency and abilities of the speaker system further and for smaller domestic living rooms like mine, would be an obvious choice these days. Humungous speakers like Marco's are probably being used in giant headphone mode most of the time, the huge wall of sound wrapping itself around the listener in a way that only huge speakers can. Sadly, that isn't an option for most of us I reckon, much as I'd like a pair of ton-up "Ard-ons" to deafen myself with one last time...... :lol:
The Vinyl Adventure
02-08-2010, 16:29
adam s2x £2000 aprox pair
http://www.hhb.co.uk/hhb/uk/products/product_images_large/Adam_S2X.jpg
adam tensor epsilon £4800 pair
http://www.triplemaudioshop.nl/data/articles/images/b_2559.jpg
there are obvious differences - sand filled cab wall etc.... but £2800 worth of different :scratch:
it makes a lot of sense what you say dave, i have to admit...
i take the point on not overcoming the laws of phisics... and i havent yet heard marcos speakers... but
the huge wall of sound wrapping itself around the listener
is a very appropriate description of what i get
Big drivers give you realistic scale but room interaction is more important IMHO
Next time get yourself to Owston; some really good sounds and you get a better handle of what big drivers do. SPS speakers are pretty special but to be honest the standard is very high
Excuse the jumbled paragraphs above. No speaker can defy the laws of physics, but as techniques have improved, it's amazing what small speakers can appear to do - up to a point . . .
But not at all confused or confusing. Thank you, Dave, for such a balanced and fair minded contribution.
I have always had big speakers in the house, but now have to downsize and to consider the active - passive issue.
As far as I can see:
1. Active speakers (of whatever size) have a theoretical advantage, but in the real world of engineering compromises that advantage may be overtaken by competent passive design and construction.
2. Some manufactures take production engineered drivers and with line level crossovers wrap them in powerful amplification to tame them. The very best is delivered from the drivers, and the approach is cost effective for a short life product; other manufacturers concentrate on producing finely engineered long life drivers which behave extremely well even when passively driven.
2. The choice of domestically acceptable small and large active speakers is woefully limited.
3. The life of a mass produced active speaker is likely to be a good deal less than that of a passive which could be working well after 20 years daily service. A good passive could be the better investment, even if it has sacrificed the last edge of its own performance potential.
Reid Malenfant
02-08-2010, 17:48
Like Hamish i'm not going to linger on this for too long.
A competantly designed active speaker using the same drive units as a passive loudspeaker of equally competant design will out perform the passive ;) Not just in theory but in practise :eyebrows:
Small active speakers can & often do seriously out perform passives of similar size by quite a big margin. Not everyone likes the thought of sticking something in the audio chain to increase performance. They like the sacred cow of flat speaker response. Take the KEF Cube that was designed to complement the Ref 105/3, this gave the 105 a response in room down to 20Hz.
A small active speaker like the pictures that Hamish posted could extend the bass response & as well as that protect the driver from overload due to subharmonics quite simply by using a peaking high pass filter at a low frequency just below system cutoff. It's not rocket science, it's available to anyone who cares to take a look & do a little studying :)
I was messing about with WinISD & the bass driver used in the Yamaha NS1000M. Yes the high quality 12" job that does bass mid quite well. You want a small speaker that performs? How about -3DB @ 30Hz in a 30Litre ported box & having the driver impossible to overload due to subharmonics. All i needed to do to get this was add a high pass filter with a slight peak in the response, a peak of just 4DB to get the thing flat to 30Hz :lol: That is a box of 1.3L over 1ft3 - tiny for such performance when total output could be 110Db in the passband for one enclosure..
I'm guessing by now that you realise you have another fan of active systems here :doh:
The Vinyl Adventure
02-08-2010, 18:32
But not at all confused or confusing. Thank you, Dave, for such a balanced and fair minded contribution.
I have always had big speakers in the house, but now have to downsize and to consider the active - passive issue.
As far as I can see:
1. Active speakers (of whatever size) have a theoretical advantage, but in the real world of engineering compromises that advantage may be overtaken by competent passive design and construction.
2. Some manufactures take production engineered drivers and with line level crossovers wrap them in powerful amplification to tame them. The very best is delivered from the drivers, and the approach is cost effective for a short life product; other manufacturers concentrate on producing finely engineered long life drivers which behave extremely well even when passively driven.
2. The choice of domestically acceptable small and large active speakers is woefully limited.
3. The life of a mass produced active speaker is likely to be a good deal less than that of a passive which could be working well after 20 years daily service. A good passive could be the better investment, even if it has sacrificed the last edge of its own performance potential.
You are welcome to come sit in my happy seat and check out the Adams
http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww282/hamish_gill/cf3188ad.jpg
Longevety isn't something I had concidored ... The Adams have 5 year g'tees .... But I'd hope they would last a lot longer than that!!
The Vinyl Adventure
02-08-2010, 18:36
I'm guessing by now that you realise you have another fan of active systems here :doh:
That's 5 of us ;)
The Grand Wazoo
02-08-2010, 18:42
6
Longevety isn't something I had considered ... The Adams have 5 year g'tees .... But I'd hope they would last a lot longer than that!!
You are very kind, but Worcester is quite a way.
I listened to some cheaper Adams and the treble coming out of those tweeters was pretty fierce. I found the Dynaudios easier.
But I would not want any of them in my lounge - maybe in a secondary room.
Longevity? I'm 60. If I buy the right small passives I may never buy another pair of speakers.
The Vinyl Adventure
02-08-2010, 18:47
These-uns sound sweet as a nut to me ... But I think we have had this convo else were the little dyns are nicer than the little Adams ....
I guess it's down to a more cheaply implemented ribbon tweeter on the little Adam
.... Well your welcome if you pass though...
I guess it's down to a more cheaply implemented ribbon tweeter on the little Adam
I guess so - you get what you pay for.
But it's not as if I am not used to fairly bright speakers. Look at the spec of my MB Quarts in my sig. Titanium domes tweeter and aluminium dome mid range. I have lived with those 20 years and more.
Needs a Quad or Sugden to calm them! :)
WOW
Now this really is thread drift. I see German eBay has a pair for €350 with €59 shipping to UK
Anyone want some award winning German vintage speakers?
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140434441786
The Vinyl Adventure
02-08-2010, 18:59
Perhaps it was the within the system... They sounded ok when I heard them!?
I certainly wouldn't quibble the trebble that comes out of mine by any stretch, seems perfectly balanced to me ... Listing 'no suprises' the radiohead song at the mo ... That little bell sounds like it's sat about a meter in front of the left hand speaker.... And it's by no means shrill etc.
Longevity? I'm 60. If I buy the right small passives I may never buy another pair of speakers.
Best I heard are the MAD My Claptons well worth a listen
Easy to drive dynamic and very good soundstage they use full range drivers so coherant too
Reid Malenfant
02-08-2010, 19:36
But it's not as if I am not used to fairly bright speakers. Look at the spec of my MB Quarts in my sig. Titanium domes tweeter and aluminium dome mid range. I have lived with those 20 years and more.
Needs a Quad or Sugden to calm them! :)
Ahhh, you see you aren't thinking 'out of the box' so to speak :lol: I'm used to Beryllium mid & treble domes this way, much better for breakup, i think the tweeter starts at something like 40KHz :eyebrows:
You can combine the very best of all worlds with an active system. You need sweet mid & treble then use valve or class A amps, you need death grip bass, get yourself a hefty high damping factor transistorised amp be it class A or B..
When you go active the world is your oyster :eyebrows: It can be you that picks & chooses what amplification you use, as long as you don't buy a ready made system that is. Quality active crossovers are pretty cheap. I recently bought a pair of Behringers because i need a 4 way crossover, the total THD is 0.002%...Try & find a passive that does that :lolsign: Outputs are variable for gain & frequency so amp matching isn't a problem & they give nice linlwitz/riley 24Db per octave crossovers which are phase coherent.
All i need to do is add relevant time delays to each output & i'll be laughing, i might invalidate the warranty but i bet i can fix the thing faster than sending it away to be fixed if it goes wrong. Frankly that's not likely as op amps are reliable & there won't be much of anything else in there to go wrong either.
DIY active is actually easier than passive speakers, i kid you not..
That's 5 of us ;)
Nah...6 :)
But because they are Linn ones, I keep quiet or get smacked by the big boys.:lol:
I've had these for 8 years now, and every time I improve the source my little Tukans shine through.
Yes, I'm probably going to replace them, but only because I will be able to throw an awful lot of dosh at replacements.
However..like Hamish. I am just SO pushed for space, and I'll give them all a fair shot..but actives of some sort may well win out again. I"m looking forward to finding out.
When you go active the world is your oyster
Yes, I know. Very flexible. But I don't want the fuss, and I don't want dozens of boxes and yards of cables. I just want something to listen to music.
It's sad that HiFi manufacturers are not thinking out of the box - a DAC-Control Amp with the crossovers in and a six channel AV amp could work well. Dial in the crossover settings specified by the speaker manufacturer, make minor changes to taste and to suite the room and off you go.
But you end up chasing the moonlight rather than listening to the sonata . . .
Reid Malenfant
02-08-2010, 20:05
Yes, I know. Very flexible. But I don't want the fuss, and I don't want dozens of boxes and yards of cables. I just want something to listen to music.
It's sad that HiFi manufacturers are not thinking out of the box - a DAC-Control Amp with the crossovers in and a six channel AV amp could work well. Dial in the crossover settings specified by the speaker manufacturer, make minor changes to taste and to suite the room and off you go.
But you end up chasing the moonlight rather than listening to the sonata . . .
If every sound engineer said that then there would never ever be any concerts or the likes of Glastonbury etc. Once it's set up correctly then you leave it alone ;)
How many tries do you think it'd take you to design a great passive crossover for a DIY set of speakers? Probably years, active system will have you there much much faster as it's adjustable! Just tweak a potentiometer, no rewinding inductors or fitting different capacitors :doh:
How many tries do you think it'd take you to design a great passive crossover for a DIY set of speakers?
I didn't say anything about DIY. I just want to listen to the music.
Ali Tait
02-08-2010, 20:41
I guess you could add me to the list,if you count direct-coupled amps driving electrostatics.The protoype,despite being compromised in some ways,due to being made with what Nick had to hand,in some ways was the best sound I've ever heard.The proper articles should be nothing short of stunning.
kininigin
02-08-2010, 21:00
you can add me to the active camp.I don't have the room or money for lots of boxes and big ass speakers (i have 8" drivers,i wonder if i can get away with 10").
My speakers are at the budget end of things and look ugly as fook but they punch well above there weight imo.
I remember when i first joined about a year ago and asked about using actives but didn't get many replys as not many were/are using them.I wanted to buy some actives from a traditional hi fi maker but had few options (almost got some avi neutrons with amp paks but they sold out before i could get them).
So turned to the pro market and was a bit dubious as i got the imppression that in the main they would sound in your face and tiring.
Im glad i took a punt as what i have is a detailed expansive soundstage with deep controlled bass for their size and a sweet treble.
kininigin
02-08-2010, 21:06
I guess you could add me to the list,if you count direct-coupled amps driving electrostatics.The protoype,despite being compromised in some ways,due to being made with what Nick had to hand,in some ways was the best sound I've ever heard.The proper articles should be nothing short of stunning.
the more the merrier Viva la Revolution
The Grand Wazoo
02-08-2010, 21:21
Active operation has always been a part of my (very) long term plan.
A note to Brian regarding reliability...
I don't think it matters about speaker "life," comparing active and passive... There's no reason why electronics in an active model can't be serviced in twenty years time. It's the mechanicals as in drive units that may not be around, and that is irrespective of technology used.
kininigin
02-08-2010, 21:32
actives in the red corner,passives in the blue but which one is better
there's only one way to find out
FIGHT :fence:
Techno Commander
02-08-2010, 23:43
actives in the red corner,passives in the blue
http://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg116/sillystuff99/Animations/handbags.gif
There's no reason why electronics in an active model can't be serviced in twenty years time. It's the mechanicals as in drive units that may not be around, and that is irrespective of technology used.
Doesn't depend on whose name is on the electronics, Dave, where it was made and what components were used? Well made boards will indeed be serviceable for many years, but there is a lot of here today gone tomorrow electronics.
ATC will have a long life - passive or active. Much stuff made to a price in the Far East will not.
I wasn't thinking of the cheapo stuff I must admit.
"My" ATC100A's are in daily use and despite replacement SL drivers (a not cheap upgrade done in 1997 on my old pair) and a checkover in the mid noughties, they're now seventeen years old... Obviously, the big PMC's and similar will last decades too and old, well thrashed big studio Tannoys and JBL's can be rebuilt and restored.
My BC2's needed replacement bass drivers as the originals shook apart and are un-servicable these days. The "man at Spendor" was able and willing to cannibalise a good but unloved pair of SA2's for some matched drivers which happened to be the same sensitivity as my old ones and benefitted by an improved spec (the BC2 drivers were used in SA2, BC3 mid and Preludes).
I was going to post this in reply on Hamish's thread about DIY Active speakers, but with hindsight, and given the interest in the subject, I think the theory needs a whole new thread.
Can someone explain in lay-man's terms why an active configuration is so much better than passive? To my simplistic mind, you are trading one set of comprises for another - you're getting rid of speaker cables, but instead increasing the length of the interconnect considerably, and then stuffing all your electronics (amps) right where they can interfere most with (or be interfered by) the drivers and cabinets?
Given how much importance is put on here by some quarters to things like isolating components, microphony etc, to an electronic simpleton like me I can't see how active should be so much better - so what have I missed in my basic theory?
i think your basic questions have been answered, i too was always mistified by why people should rave about actives
it been summed up nicely, the output of the amp can be matched to the responce of the drivers used.. no driver has a flat responce.. but if you tailor the output from the amp to make the overall output flat.. you have a flat response
.. you could not sell the amp seperately as it is matched for a particular set of drivers.. from a makers point you could put any driver in and make it level
in the world of hi fi shop speakers you get a more balanced but an 'engineered' sound
not always a better sound compared to what is possible.. but you can see the advantages of why it could sound better in the hi fi shop
the drawbacks are that all that engineering can restrict the sound from a 'what is possible' aspect, but its probably better than many passive set ups
the other complaint i've heard is when one turns up the wick the speaker may at some frequencies have alot more watts been pumped in than one would expect.. particually in the bass.. and distortion can set in early
now diy is a very different ball game .. you can select high quality drivers and make your high quality amp match them for a level output
its nothing new.. just think radiogram,there were some good ones
all speakers have their drawbacks.. or is it .. no speaker is perfect
trouble with speakers is that one can not imagine a better sound until you actually hear it in your room next to what you think is a perfect sound..
and even then its not always obvious what is better
the real question is, what constitutes a better sound or high fi system?
the answer clearly is 'opinion'... or is it.. ?
I don't think that's totally correct sir and most active monitors don't go anywhere NEAR a hifi shop, but I don't have time to answer more fully.
Many modern drivers have a wider and better response than ever, so response tailoring isn't always required and of it is, it's gentle. Distortion in modern drivers is still to high, but lower than in the 70's and 80's and, sadly, it seems that far eastern sourced units are amongst the best, as the European makers (now under one umbrella I believe) seem to have lost their inspiration I understand.
I'm waiting until I can bring in some SN10 passives for £100 under the radar. They look to be a huge bargain and IMO would see off Ditton 15XR's for £260 :peace: :D
I don't think that's totally correct sir and most active monitors don't go anywhere NEAR a hifi shop, but I don't have time to answer more fully.
Many modern drivers have a wider and better response than ever, so response tailoring isn't always required and of it is, it's gentle. Distortion in modern drivers is still to high, but lower than in the 70's and 80's and, sadly, it seems that far eastern sourced units are amongst the best, as the European makers (now under one umbrella I believe) seem to have lost their inspiration I understand.
I'm waiting until I can bring in some SN10 passives for £100 under the radar. They look to be a huge bargain and IMO would see off Ditton 15XR's for £260 :peace: :D
well just my opinion ..in layman's terms...
my local hi fi shop had some active speakers in, that was a couple of years ago though... and they where not cheap
modern speakers tend to much flatter but also lowish efficiency generally .. i (wrongly ?) tend to think of hi fi shop speakers as being low efficiency types
quite a wild assumption..?
you see i would see ditton 15xr as being very low-fi and beating them not being worth the effort.. i want my cd's to sound like live music.. i can dream?
and if live music can sound so much different to hi fi.. whats wrong with hi fi
the problems it seems to me, start with the speakers..
the trouble is there is more to it than that.. and most will sacrifice what they have never heard, for small living room friendly kit..
and thats where the hi fi shop (and that type of kit) comes into its own..
i do know my views are not the normal take...
cheers
steve
The Vinyl Adventure
03-08-2010, 13:01
i got my actives from a hifi shop where they have most active adams (classics and tensors on dem) as well as naim and linn active setups.... 1 of the shops in town stocks both adam and dynaudio actives and the other can get adams in for demo... ...
I'm waiting until I can bring in some SN10 passives for £100 under the radar. They look to be a huge bargain
You still hankering after those Studiospares boxes, Dave :)
Yeah, but SWMBO would kill me (I'm sailing too close to the wind as it is..... :eek:)
Yeah, but SWMBO would kill me (I'm sailing too close to the wind as it is..... :eek:)
I'm just waiting for the right moment!
(She got the wardrobe she wanted yesterday :) )
They're not exactly "stealthy" looking either, are they?! My new PD-S904 CD player was slotted into the rack yesterday (very prominently, I may add) and she hasn't noticed yet... I'm always mucking about with kit in and out of various places so I don't think she has a clue what I've got in the loft, garage, study etc. anyway. Come to think of it, I'm not sure I've got a clue! :lol:
The bias guide for the SME arrived whilst she was out this morning, so that was sneakily installed very quickly... Just ordered a Sumiko headshell, so if I get that from the postie before she does I might get away with it... Won't be able to do that with a new plinth though! :)
Back to the thread, thanks everyone for the input, I think I understand it a bit more now, though I guess the one disadvantage no-one has mentioned is the flexibility you lose going active - for manic box-swappers I guess they are not as appealing, though I understand why for some this is a good thing.
EDIT: Let's just hope she doesn't read this! :doh:
hifi_dave
03-08-2010, 16:00
Can I just add my tuppence worth ?
I have used and sold many active speakers over the years from the likes of Meridian, Linn, ARC, PMC, ProAc, JBL, ATC and others. Some were good and some were naff but I would suggest that you couldn't sit in front of a pair of speakers with eyes closed and reliably pick out the actives and the passives.
I fully realise the theoretical advantages of active but I also know the hands on reality. There are good and bad actives and good and bad passives.
Until a few years ago we kept in the shop, two pairs of speakers from a well known and respected manufacturer of active monitors. These were active or if you disconnected the mains were passive. With a good amp driving them passively, we could produce better sounds than using them actively.
What I would say is that in their active form they were very good value indeed and were trouble free plus the box count is less.
Active is not the panacea for all speaker ills and yes, I have heard a certain active computer speaker and can confirm that there is no 'magic', just a competent little box, no more, no less.
Reid Malenfant
03-08-2010, 16:55
Until a few years ago we kept in the shop, two pairs of speakers from a well known and respected manufacturer of active monitors. These were active or if you disconnected the mains were passive. With a good amp driving them passively, we could produce better sounds than using them actively.
Hi Dave, i'm a little puzzled by the above :scratch:
Could you please attempt to explain what you wrote a little better if & when you have the time, cheers :) Only reason i ask is i can't see how you did what you stated & i'd rather you clear things up before i follow up ;)
jimdgoulding
03-08-2010, 17:13
I use Meridian M20's but on aftermarket stands for added height. In my size room, they are pretty awesome. Had them since the late 80's. They are an MTM design with twin 5" mid/bass drivers but go deeper with more weight (-3db @ 37Hz) than the lot of two way standmounts I've auditioned in house with 6.5" mid/woofers. They have active crossovers and their balance may therefore be tuned somewhat with DIP switches on the back.
hifi_dave
03-08-2010, 19:22
Hi Dave, i'm a little puzzled by the above :scratch:
Could you please attempt to explain what you wrote a little better if & when you have the time, cheers :) Only reason i ask is i can't see how you did what you stated & i'd rather you clear things up before i follow up ;)
Easy, peasy.
We had two pairs of different model speakers from the same manufacturer. Each pair were active with the mains applied or passive with the mains disconnected. The mains fired up the amps and crossovers.
They sounded very good indeed used actively or passively and very similar. Using them passively and with a high quality amp, they could sound better than active. Of course, using an inferior amp to those inside the speakers would yield an inferior sound.
What I'm saying is that active or passive they sounded very similar and using a good external amp they could produce better results than with the internal amps. The active operation wasn't always better than the passive.
Now, it's very rare that such a comparison can be made as speakers are usually active or passive and so you listen to the speaker as it was designed. Listening to say, a Meridian M2 and saying it sounds good because it is active, isn't strictly true IMO, as you haven't and can't, hear how it sounds passive with good amps.
Reid Malenfant
03-08-2010, 19:37
Hi Dave, cheers for the reply :) I'm assuming then that the drive units were totally disconnected from the 'active internal amps' when powered down (relay to disconnect). If not then there would be problems :lol:
One thing that is bugging me though, were these speakers one way as in a single driver? Or did you have to connect two external amplifiers per speaker (or more) with an electronic crossover?
Because simply put if there was more than a single driver in the box then they would need two external power amps (more if 3 way) per speaker & an electronic crossover. If there was only provision for a single amp to be connected & they were 2 way or greater this would indicate the speaker was actually passive but with a built in amplifier & passive crossover.
This is why i'm kind of confused & wanted you to reply a little more in depth so to speak :)
M2's and possibly M20's ONLY work because they're active, as certainly in the M2 there was some active bass eq going on. I thought the M20's were rather better (more lively) when I heard them.
Dave, you had ATC20 Towers didn't you - special custom ones with active amp packs in as well as passive crossovers?
The three way ATC's (although I don't know the 35's and 40's) need the active setup because of the tight matching needed on their mid dome - the dome has no safety area outside either of the crossover points and steep filters have to be used as I remember.
The thing is, the ONLY thing that the best passives give way on is perhaps a touch of "immediacy," and this can be counteracted to a degree. All too many cheaper actives are rough and ready as the passive crossover isn't there to smother the roughness in the cheap amps often used..
To answer another post, the reason I haven't returned to the "active" path (and sold my active ATC 20 ASL Pro's last November) is because I LIKE to tweak. I don't feel I've lost much either..
To answer another post, the reason I haven't returned to the "active" path (and sold my active ATC 20 ASL Pro's last November) is because I LIKE to tweak. I don't feel I've lost much either..
And you like tone controls?
I have gone back to passive coz my Ashly XR2001 has developed a fault I dont feel as if I am missing anything.There was a thread on the Gearslutz forum where passive studio monitors of the same series with a decent amp(MC2) bettered their active cousins that used class D amps.
hifi_dave
03-08-2010, 20:49
Hi Dave, cheers for the reply :) I'm assuming then that the drive units were totally disconnected from the 'active internal amps' when powered down (relay to disconnect). If not then there would be problems :lol:
One thing that is bugging me though, were these speakers one way as in a single driver? Or did you have to connect two external amplifiers per speaker (or more) with an electronic crossover?
Because simply put if there was more than a single driver in the box then they would need two external power amps (more if 3 way) per speaker & an electronic crossover. If there was only provision for a single amp to be connected & they were 2 way or greater this would indicate the speaker was actually passive but with a built in amplifier & passive crossover.
This is why i'm kind of confused & wanted you to reply a little more in depth so to speak :)
One pair was two way the other, three way. They had a relay operated by the mains which switched in the internal crossovers and amps. In passive mode with mains disconnected, the internal amps and associated crossovers were removed from circuit and the passive crossovers were connected. In this way, it was a matter of seconds to compare active with passive.
As I said, it's rare to be able to directly compare passive with active. You either listen to a dedicated passive or a dedicated active speaker and IMO, active is different, not necessarily better.
And you like tone controls?
I use them for the Sennheiser headphones via the Quad 33, but don't need them on the speakers fortunately.
The Vinyl Adventure
03-08-2010, 22:23
Hmm. Thats just one pair though dave, is it likely that all speakers would be the same.
Surely there is a possibility that the amps in that speaker were tuned in some way to some similar to when using the passive crossover?
hifi_dave
04-08-2010, 10:11
It was two pairs of different model speakers from the same manufacturer and it gave a good insight into active v passive. IMO.
As I see it, active speakers have certain theoretical advantages but in reality, a good passive can be better than a good active. The 'advantages' are small and won't make any and every active speaker better than a passive. In fact, a lot of active speakers I have heard haven't been very good at all.
It's a bit like the SS versus tube or the Class-A versus the rest - there are good and bad of each and different sounds produced. All you can do is listen to the various speakers, ignoring the design principles and buy whichever gives you the best sound.
The Vinyl Adventure
04-08-2010, 10:16
Right on! Buy what's right for your ears, and walet not design principles ...
All you can do is listen to the various speakers, ignoring the design principles and buy whichever gives you the best sound.
Sounds like very good (sound) advice!
Yes Dave advice sums it up well
As our site owner extraordinaire always puts it "Like all things hi-fi, choose your compromises" I guess.
Yes but its human nature to want it all:lolsign:
Yes but its human nature to want it all:lolsign:
You've been talking to my wife again! :lol:
These threads in very different places should both be read carefully and calmly:
http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/showthread.php?791-Active-Domestic-Speakers&highlight=
http://hddaudio.net/viewtopic.php?id=65
That's a lot of words! Any chance you could nutshell it for us?
That's a lot of words! Any chance you could nutshell it for us?
It's a touchy subject. I would rather not, but I will refer back to an earlier post of mine.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=142032&postcount=47
I think it means that if you are very careful and really know what you are dealing with, one can make a superb sounding speaker that fools the ear into "disappearing" well.
Active is undeniably better in a pro environment where we want to hear *everything* in the mix, but from personal experience, I'd suggest that this kind of listening is a little too "tense" sometimes for domestic listening pleasure unless the speakers are incredibly well sorted.
There's a link to the Stereophile review of my favourite baby Harbeths.
http://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/1293harbeth/index7.html
Passive or not, those measurements, especially those of the metal-dome tweeter, are really good I think and the cabinet "waterfall" plot is also excellent, showing that the drivers aren't resonating in the audio band and neither is the cabinet to any severe extent :) Despite being passive, that bass "bump" just makes the speaker sound bigger than it really is, rather than sounding thick and clogged or thumpy/one-note as it may have done if designed forty years ago as the 3/5A was...
Reid Malenfant
04-08-2010, 18:46
It's a touchy subject. I would rather not, but I will refer back to an earlier post of mine.
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showpost.php?p=142032&postcount=47
Very touchy :lol:
Honestly, try telling that to a Linn Komri or ATC 50/100/200A owner :scratch: Ok, so maybe only the bass end of the Komri is active, yet it gets worse as it uses motional feedback.
You aren't trying to suggest that the above speakers won't last as long as a decent amp & passive speakers are you? ;) Thinking about it i'd imagine that most subwoofers for AV cinema systems are also active, relying on the .1 output to feed the amp in the sub. These often tend to be rather high powered & for the life of me i can't remember the last time i saw a REL sub (or any other reasonable make) that was blown or the driver destroyed through mis-use for sale :eyebrows:
What i have seen with passives though is a heck of a lot of dead tweeters due to amplifier clipping (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Tweeter-protector-Yamaha-NS1000-NS-1000m-NS1000m-/250674100067?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Speakers_Subwoofers&hash=item3a5d573763). Just one example for you :eek: That's what happens to any passive speaker when the only amplifier driving it clips due to most of the power being consumed by the bass driver.
Active, it can't happen unless the amp driving the tweeter clips & i'd suggest that the volume would have been backed off due to distortion in bass & mid before this would ever occur.
hifi_dave
04-08-2010, 19:43
I believe that the main reason active speakers are sometimes used in a studio is because it is relatively easy for the user to tweak them to sound 'flat' or to tailor the sound as he/she prefers. With a passive design this isn't so easily accomplished.
As for damaged tweeters - I have been selling Hi-Fi speakers for nearly 40 years - thousands and thousands of them and the number of damaged tweeters I have replaced in all this time are probably no more than 20 or so. Maybe this is because I only sell quality equipment....:trust:
Reid Malenfant
04-08-2010, 19:56
As for damaged tweeters - I have been selling Hi-Fi speakers for nearly 40 years - thousands and thousands of them and the number of damaged tweeters I have replaced in all this time are probably no more than 20 or so. Maybe this is because I only sell quality equipment....:trust:
I'd suggest that the purchasers are the type of people that are happy to listen at a more moderate listening level. It's not about quality, clip any amplifier & the tweeter will ultimately die before any other driver ;) Unless the tweeter happens to be protected that is, though quite how any protection detects a square wave is another story.
You aren't being serious in suggesting that the tweeter in the Yamaha NS1000 is low quality are you? :lolsign: Heck, it's only been in the last decade that other manufacturers have cottoned on to beryllium domes, Focal JM lab springs to mind as well as Paradigm.
Not only that but the Yamaha tweeters & for that matter the mids & bass units all use rectangular wire copper voicecoils with no formers. No need for them as long as they aren't fed electricity from clipped amps ;) Bye bye formers & an increase in efficiency as well as improved cooling.
hifi_dave
04-08-2010, 20:08
So, I've been fortunate then ?
All my thousands of customers, including the hundreds of record shops I equipped, only listen at 'moderate' levels. Lucky me...:rolleyes:
Also, thinking about it, I have replaced far more bass drivers than tweeters. Even so, considering the numbers in question, faulty drivers are a tiny fraction of 1%. IE, nothing to worry about.
Who mentioned Yamaha ?
Reid Malenfant
04-08-2010, 20:15
Who mentioned Yamaha ?
Sorry, i thought you might have noticed i put a link in my last post that showed a rather large number of expensive dead Yamaha tweeters ;)
What tends to happen is people start cranking things rather loud when they hear things clearly & unfortunately they don't recognise the distressed tweeter because it's masked by the overall volume.
I stick by what i say, seperate amps will result in less tweeter deaths. Maybe the tweeter won't like 50 or 100W RMS of clean power on peaks, but it'll like a clipped amp much less even if it has a 40W rating ;)
hifi_dave
04-08-2010, 20:42
I didn't notice but I'm glad I don't sell Yamaha speakers in that case...:eek:
What I'm saying is, that in practical terms, having sold thousands of speakers, over many years, from dozens of companies to all manner of users, the number of damaged tweeters has been miniscule - right off the bottom of the scale - totally irrelevant.
As I said, I have replaced more bass drivers than tweeters but even so, the numbers are tiny in relation to the thousands of speakers in use. Even the record shops I supplied for many years only managed to burn out a handful of bass drivers - no tweeters as I recall.
Speakers are, generally, reliable and robust. IMO
Reid Malenfant
05-08-2010, 16:47
<snip> Speakers are, generally, reliable and robust. IMO
I fully agree with that ;) I think i have only ever managed to kill one driver in my whole life & that was a bass driver, a very old early type B139. I just don't think it liked 90W RMS :eyebrows:
I guess some people just aren't sensitive to the sound of a clipping amplifier :mental:
Techno Commander
05-08-2010, 17:32
Thats one of the things I like about using a pro power amp. The room starts to fall apart long before you reach the point where the amplifier starts to clip. :)
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