Any experience of the RME ADI-2 DAC ?

[Stranraer]

Since upgrading my preamp I've decided that my CD source, the Oppo 95, is probably a weak link in my set up so I'm looking at upgrades.
I got some great suggestions on here previously about replacing the Oppo with an Audiolab 6000 CD transport & Soncoz SDG1 DAC, and was ready to press the button.

However, I'm hoping this will be a Final Upgrade (no, really), so spent some time looking at DACs further up the chain sound quality-wise and do like the look of the RME ADI-2,but as I have so little understanding of DACs generally I'm not sure if the improvement over the Soncoz would be signinficant, if any.

If anyone would like to weigh in with thoughts/advice/opinion I'd be grateful.
A deal breaker is that the DAC will need to have volume control.

[Macca]

I wouldn't assume the RME has better sound quality - from a purely measurement point of view it's not actually as good as the Soncoz, although there's nothing much in it.

Doesn't necessarily mean they will sound identical but very unlikely to be a big difference. Although I think the RME has an NOS option that might give a slightly different take on things.

The RME more expensive because it is made in Germany instead of China and has many additional features over the Soncoz.

[Opti-cal]

Agree with Macca, when DAC's measure this well (upper end of available measurements) I doubt there would be much in it. I was in the same conundrum. As I don't need any of the additional features the RME offers it was just a case of price/value, where the Soncoz wins hands down. Also thought about offerings from Mytek/Benchmark and the Topping D90.

Now the SGD1 is in my system and I'm completely satisfied (and more) by it's performance. Some reviews have criticised ESS-Sabre DACs for being somewhat bright or thin but none of that here. It is vastly over engineered internally with quality separate power supplies for digital and analogue sections.

The "ESS hump" issue has also now been fixed on all new units.

For the performance the price is excellent.

[Filterlab]

I have an RME ADI-2 FS DAC (AK 4493) which has been in the system for a few weeks.

How do I put it? "End game DAC". That will do nicely. It comfortably destroyed my very solid and well engineered Leema, it comfortably annihilated three DACs I tested it against (all very much more expensive), and the bewildering array of features ensures it can be tailored perfectly to your system. If you have knowledge of studio DACs and DSPs this will be to your delight. If you don't then you can use a few (or none) of the features - but they ARE worth investigating, particularly the parametric EQ which can be used to remove artefacts of the room with ease. It's very subtle and remarkably flexible.

Sound wise it has an immediacy, weight and detail retrieval I've not experienced before, and I've experienced a lot of DACs. Completely focussed on the music. Not edgy, not brash, not 'digital'. I can't really say more than that.

It's a tiny unit which looks completely inoccuous, but it punches hard above its weight and that of DACs costing many times more. For the price you simply can't go wrong.

[BultyBoy]

I'm going to buy the RME very soon. From what I read the differences to the Qutest are the square root of s*d all and it doesn't seem to need a separate power supply to perform as well.

[Filterlab]

Good move. The Qutest was one I tested against it.

I chose the RME.

[struth]

the dac in the vena 2 is very good. as is the one in my current amp. not saying they cant be bettered but overall they are as good as most and better than many

[Firebottle]

I have just moved on from a Topping D90 Sigma delta dac to one of the new R-2R dacs.

It is a Musician Pegasus dac and it annihilates the D90. There is more texture and depth with the rR2R. An experienced ear gave this report:

'We put on a track i know really well, Leo Kottke - From Spink to Correctionville (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShF7yjU7Jqk)

This is a great track to test for tone and realism, and seeing as he is picking and using a slide there is a lot of transient information, leading edges and decay. It's a tougher test than you may think.

The Pegasus passed this audition with consummate ease. The guitar had oodles of tone. Realistically balanced and demonstrated texture and dimensionality. The soundstage was rather vivid with A 3D quality that lit up the ESL's, The music flowed with ease and the changes in rhythm and timing were easy to follow. I have only really experienced with the Soekris, and in stock form, the Pegasus hit the Soekris for six. HOWZAAATT!

The transients were floating in the ether and decay was easily audible via the sustain on the notes or the resonance in the guitars body. Leading edges were quick, clean and the discharge of the force used to play the note was also easily audible. That's a hard one to explain but the note is loudest at it's start and thats what we heard. sensational stuff.'

If you don't need bells and whistles I can highly recommend it as an end game dac.

[Stranraer]

[QUOTE=Firebottle;1256248]I have just moved on from a Topping D90 Sigma delta dac to one of the new R-2R dacs.

It is a Musician Pegasus dac and it annihilates the D90.

Just taken a browse and it looks like a lovely piece of kit Alan, but no volume control from what I'm seeing and that's one of the requirements I have.
Many thanks for the heads up though, and enjoy......

[Stranraer]

the dac in the vena 2 is very good. as is the one in my current amp. not saying they cant be bettered but overall they are as good as most and better than many

Thanks Grant. My understanding of DACs is virtually non-existent but I think I'm looking for a dedicated DAC (if this makes sense) where your Vena seems to me to be an amp with a DAC ?
If this is correct and as I have a pre and mono amps, maybe not quite what I'm after.

[BultyBoy]

I just read some.reviews yes that Pegasus looks a great buy as I don't want any bells and whistles

[Stranraer]

Very helpful advice all, many thanks again.
More than one of you has been very clear that, all being equal, I should be perfectly satisfied with the sound of the Soncoz, and looking at the more expensive RME it looks like it has many features I'll almost certainly never use.

However, it can't just be me that gets the nagging feeling that if something is more expensive there HAS to be a reason, right ???
And this from the guy that's had more fun in a £3k car than the 25 grand motor it replaced. Will I EVER learn ?

That said, if it's going to serve for a decade or more maybe build and components explain and justify the extra dollars ?

It feels from your words that at least I've identified two worthy contenders, so that's appreciated.

Thimk I'll have a chat with Keith at Purite Audio as I think he stocks both.

If this is of interest I'll let you know the outcome.

Enjoy your Sunday evening, I've got The Good, The Bad and The Ugly waiting in the Oppo............

[CageyH]

Thimk I'll have a chat with Keith at Purite Audio as I think he stocks both.

Is he not the person that believe all DACs sound the same?

[Macca]

I don't think he believes all of them sound the same. Just those that measure really well. Which does make some sense.

[CageyH]

Surely the sound will depend on the analogue output stage?

[mikeyb]

I just read some.reviews yes that Pegasus looks a great buy as I don't want any bells and whistlesHave a look at the Denafrips Ares II from Willowtreeaudio, cheaper than the Pegasus [emoji6]

[Macca]

Surely the sound will depend on the analogue output stage?

I suspect that too but I don't know that I'd be sure about it. I haven't done the comparisons, he reckons he has.

[walpurgis]

Surely the sound will depend on the analogue output stage?

Yes and even cable choices will affect things.

[Filterlab]

Is it me, or is it a bit odd that the OP has taken the advice of those who've never heard the DAC but ignores the post of someone who owns one and has it playing all day long?

Forums are bizarre. :D

[Ali Tait]

I have a Mytek which is great, but I do like the AK chips I've heard in the past, would be my choice if I was looking now.

[Opti-cal]

Forums are bizarre. :D

Can't disagree with you there!

The RME does have an incredible array of features especially for the price, and it looks cool as f***. I very much doubt anyone would be less than thrilled with the sound (from what others report as I haven't actually heard one). The room correction/parametric EQ features are not something found in many (any?) other DAC's either. It's got a lot of strings to its bow. Like I said before though, my personal goal was max sound quality for the budget (around £500) and the Soncoz hit a home run there.

[Stranraer]

Hi Rob, to be fair I made that point myself. It 's the way my mind works that if there's a price difference surely it must be justified somehow, particularly when we're looking at one product being twice the price of the other. Anyway,old ground, China v Germany etc.

[Stranraer]

With thanks for all the input, I've just ordered the Audiolab 6000CDT and Soncoz SDG1 DAC.
Apparently the DAC's in the middle of an unnamed ocean, hopefully in watertight wrapping, so not sure when it'll be with me.
I'll be sure to post the result of swapping out the Oppo.

Excited........

[Opti-cal]

With thanks for all the input, I've just ordered the Audiolab 6000CDT and Soncoz SDG1 DAC.
Apparently the DAC's in the middle of an unnamed ocean, hopefully in watertight wrapping, so not sure when it'll be with me.
I'll be sure to post the result of swapping out the Oppo.

Excited........

Nice, I've had my Soncoz a few weeks now and I'm really enjoying it. One of those bits of kit which stops you looking at other kit (at least for a while . . . ).

Hard to imagine digital decoding being done much better, although I'm sure it can be. BUT, not for anywhere near my price range.

[Bonky]

My RME DAC arrived this morning. Initial impressions: The case looks little DIY on the top; I like the front panel. Wow! What a host of features!

It's taken me a few hours of fiddling with the (somewhat non-intuitive) buttons and knobs to get to where I wanted. I've yet to adjust the individual settings for the headphones. The manual is a translation from the German and isn't the easiest manual I've ever read.

However, it's SQ that matters eh? So far I'm impressed. I won't go into 'audiophile sophistry' but it seem to have better clarity and instrument spacing. I'm comparing this to an excellent Beresford SEG + Dorado 1 (soon to be sold I hope). The SEG has the advantage of an extra optical input. However, it's bettered (to my ears and expectation bias) by the RME. Is the RME worth 4x the price. NO (in the sense that there's not a 4x subjective improvement).

Buying the RME also means I can sell my Schiit pre-amp and a headphone amp. So the difference in price (cf the SEG & RME) isn't as great as it first seems.

So, if you need a great DAC, preamp and headphone amp all in one (with a plethora of adjustments (inc -'loudness' (don't laugh)) then I can recommend the RME.

Edit: I should have mentioned that the biggest jump -to my ears- in SQ was the jump to using my MacBookPro to the DAC using USB, (this was both for the SEG and RME) rather than Airplay/Squeezebox Touch etc.

[Stranraer]

Good to hear your itch has been scratched, for now at least.
By coincidence my Audiolab CDT arrived today. Unfortunately Captain Pugwash is still riding the high seas with me Soncoz.

[Bonky]

Good to hear your itch has been scratched, for now at least.
By coincidence my Audiolab CDT arrived today. Unfortunately Captain Pugwash is still riding the high seas with me Soncoz.

The itchy bit has healed. I can't see myself buying another DAC. After a certain point (?) all relatively high-end DACs sound the same - and you're just paying extra for the 'extras'.

[Stranraer]

The itchy bit has healed. I can't see myself buying another DAC. After a certain point (?) all relatively high-end DACs sound the same - and you're just paying extra for the 'extras'.

Agreed. I had a wobble over the RME but knew deep down that I wouldn't have the patience to experiment with sound correction and with that out of the equation I'm thinking the Soncoz should be up to the job required.
And to think this only started because I wanted to remotely control volume levels, which my Croft pre doesn't do.
Now I'm thinking about it I wonder if the Dac element of the Soncoz will control the volume or am I running the Soncoz as a preamp into the Croft preamp.
Starting to sound complicated.........

[Macca]

Just try both see which you prefer.

I found it varied depending on the power amp.

[Stranraer]

Just try both see which you prefer.

I found it varied depending on the power amp.

If the Soncoz is a better sound than the Croft as a preamp replacement I'm gonna cry.

[Macca]

I think it will be quite a different presentation.

[Jimbo]

I would also be very suprised if the Soncoz preamp sounds better than the Croft. My experience of DAC Preamps has not been good but I know of folk who run their DAC Preamp straight into the power amp and have very good results.

[Stranraer]

Thanks all. I'm still unclear though whether the croft Pre will "see" the Soncoz as a DAC or as a preamp, or will it not make a difference either way. Does this make sense ?

[Opti-cal]

Thanks all. I'm still unclear though whether the croft Pre will "see" the Soncoz as a DAC or as a preamp, or will it not make a difference either way. Does this make sense ?

Soncoz DAC mode (no digital volume attenuation) is engaged when DAC is set to full volume (indicated by the orange LED's around jog wheel) using either the remote or jog wheel on front. Hope that makes sense. There are no different output/settings to worry about. As soon as you notch one volume step back digital volume attenuation is re-engaged. Definately sounds better to me in full DAC mode (full volume).

Cheers

[Opti-cal]

Experiment by all means but I would suspect full DAC mode into the Croft will sound best. The Croft is a proper preamp, the Soncoz is just digital attenuation. The other configuration to try is Soncoz in 'pre-amp' mode straight into power amp (cutting out the Croft). Just make sure the volume is low on the Soncoz before hand. The remaining setup is using the Soncoz in pre-amp mode with volume attenuation into the Croft and finding a balance of volumes between both. In my experience this would not sound best but you never know, might be worth a try as others have suggested.

[Jimbo]

I would agree, if the Soncoz has a preamp built in I would run this straight into a power amp and try this first. I have used a number of DACs like this with OK results.

Personally I would not use the preamp in a DAC as they are not usually great unless you buy top end gear where some attention has been made to get the preamp to sound good.

However you maybe lucky and the Soncox preamp could be great!:)

[Macca]

There is no built in pre-amp in the Soncoz. Instead it offers the option of varying the level in the digital domain, before the signal goes into the DAC.

[Stranraer]

There is no built in pre-amp in the Soncoz. Instead it offers the option of varying the level in the digital domain, before the signal goes into the DAC.

Great news ! That's the answer I was hoping for. So I've got a well regarded CD transport and DAC with the ability to control volume remotely into my much loved Croft preamp which I run at a fixed, relatively high "volume" (7 O'Clock on the dials) where it sounds at it's best.
Should surely be a step up from the Oppo 95 into the Croft.

The obvious thing would be to experiment of course, but the thought of the Croft being surplus to requirements would be a real heartbreaker.

All I need is for the Soncoz to wash ashore now.

Many thanks for the suggestions and reassurance, all. I really should have researched this better before purchase.

[Stranraer]

Pugwash has docked and is negotiating Brexit import duty at The Harbour Cafe , me hearties.
I'm hoping to be unpacking boxes on Saturday.

Yarrrrrrrr.......

[Stranraer]

With many thanks again for all the input, recommendations and PMs I received, I've had the Audiolab 6000 CD Transport and SGD1 in place of the Oppo 95 (it might actually be a 105) DVD player, since Monday.
They're running into the Croft 25RS preamp.

It took over two hours to complete the swap as, due to cable lengths, I had to dis- and re-connect all the boxes, moving amps up a shelf and sources/pre down. Quite frustrating as I had limited, unsighted access to most of the cables and plugs.

Got it all hooked up and................. total silence !!

Pressed all the buttons LOTS, had a ponder and with a heavy heart decided to dismantle it all and start again.
I gave the Soncoz one last go using the volume knob and hey presto. Sound.
Turns out it needs more revolutions than an oil tanker steering wheel to adjust the noise which in hindsight is quite a benefit as, unlike the quite insensitive remote control, fine tuning the volume via the knob is easily do-able. Maybe somewhere between the two would be better, but not too much of an aggravation and certainly preferable to the twin pot Croft palava.

I've probably gone a bit early with my opinions here as it still seems to be running in, but the changes are all improvements so hopefully this will be of interest.

My go to soundcheck playlist is Spiritualized, Ladies And Gentlemen We Are Floating In Space (if anyone here likes Dr. John he plays some mean keyboards on a coupla tracks) / LCD Soundsystem, Sound Of Silver / Miles Davis, On The Corner / You Will Know Us By The Trail Of Dead / 70s Bowie and various funk n soul and electronica.

I don't have the vocabulary or knowledge of many others on here, all I can say is that this is a huge upgrade.
Several layers of transparency have been added. Each and every instrument can be tracked, the beat of the bass drum, previously unheard backing vocals and guitar lines are revealed.
Separation and soundstage (biggies for me) are improved and impressive.

The instruments seem to have a physical weight to them, too. I can't really explain this any better, but I've not experienced it before. This really is different gravy.

For the first time I'm streaming music too, and am more than impressed.
I signed up to Amazon and experimented with Donna Summer, I Feel Love / Orange Juice, Rip It Up / Miles Davis (as I'm typing) and The Clash and I'm amazed at the sound quality.

After 20 years of up (and the occasional accidental down) grades I've got the sound I've been chasing.
I genuinely believe this will be my system for a good few years to come.

Cheers again for the assistance and guidance. The Audiolab/SGD1 combo is every bit as good as I was led to believe and with hindsight, a no-brainer.

[Macca]

Everything you are saying sounds familiar to me. Glad it has worked out for you.

[Stranraer]

Everything you are saying sounds familiar to me. Glad it has worked out for you.

Cheers Macca,

I had a bit of a wobble re running the DAC into the Croft pre but you set me straight on that.
I was running the pre at a fixed 7 O'Clock using the Oppo's variable volume but the sound improves when reduced to 5 O'Clock with the Soncoz. Maybe the running in will change that again.

Have you played much with the filters ? I'm struggling to differentiate between any of them but wouldn't complain if I could dial back the bass just a little.

Was gonna have an evening watching Marvelous Marvin Hagler fights but I just can't switch off the music.

[Macca]

I can't hear any difference between the filters, I think you would have to be very young with very acute hearing to be able to.

The bass is pretty powerful on these modern dacs, doesn't hold anything back does it? You could try bringing the speakers further out from the wall, or using a higher gauge of speaker wire. Or both.

[BultyBoy]

Just for interest are you just testing the water with streaming as that's quite an inexpensive dac for a system with those speakers? I'm just pondering an external doc but it seems the jury is out on here...

[Stranraer]

You could try bringing the speakers further out from the wall, or using a higher gauge of speaker wire. Or both.[/QUOTE]

Speaker position is pretty unnegotiable unfortunately. I'm in a two up / two down and with the stair situation I have one speaker 20ish inches out from the back wall and a cavernous 5 foot behind the other.
Any further out and I could rest my beer on the speaker, pretty much.
Wire guage is a foreign language, I'm afraid. I have Chord Epic, if that means anything to you ?

[Stranraer]

[QUOTE=BultyBoy;1261010]Just for interest are you just testing the water with streaming

Hi. I'm pretty unsophisticated here. Big CD collection, so sticking with them but now I've got the Soncoz DAC I've been exploring streaming via Amazon and pretty impressed by the unlimited access and decent sound quality.

I got plenty of recommendations for the Audiolab/SGD1 combo on here after asking the question about upgrading my CD and it's performing admirably. The speakers have never sounded so good and previously I had a Mark Levinson 390 CD which was beautifully made and oozed quality but soundwise there's no comparison. To be fair the 390 must've been 15 to 20 years old and I loved it, but it would be irrational to say it was on par with this far cheaper combo to my ears.

[BultyBoy]

Thanks, I'm.amazed how good my pimped node 2i is, things move on from what we thought was great at the time...

[Filterlab]

Turns out it needs more revolutions than an oil tanker steering wheel to adjust the noise which in hindsight is quite a benefit as, unlike the quite insensitive remote control, fine tuning the volume via the knob is easily do-able.

The RME ADI-2 is the same. Volume runs from something like -112dB up to +6dB. On my system I don't hear anything at all until around -45dB. That's a lot of dB of nothing. :lol:

But it is ultra-fine in its adjustability, subtle as a gnat brushing a baby with a feather.

In fact my girlfriend said the other day "I think I've broken the system". I just turned it up a long way. :D

[Stranraer]

The RME ADI-2 is the same. Volume runs from something like -112dB up to +6dB. On my system I don't hear anything at all until around -45dB. That's a lot of dB of nothing. :lol:

But it is ultra-fine in its adjustability, subtle as a gnat brushing a baby with a feather.

In fact my girlfriend said the other day "I think I've broken the system". I just turned it up a long way. :D

Your girlfriend would tell you if she thought she'd broken the system ? The same scenario in this house would definitely be my fault, regardless of circumstance.

[Macca]

Letting any non-enthusiast use your system is a mistake unless you have given them a one hour training course followed by practical and written examinations with a 90% score required to pass :D

I had a lodger's brother staying one time, I got home from work and stuck a record on 'This don't sound right.'

Went to investigate, deck was set on '45', the tracking weight was way off, the anti-skate way off. Turned out the bloke had tried to play a record but didn't realise that to make the platter turn you had to lift the arm. So he'd twiddled every single knob and adjustment possible, got no result and then just left it without saying a word to anyone.

[BultyBoy]

Same page Macca, there's nothing worse than someone you don't know showing initiative ....

[Filterlab]

Letting any non-enthusiast use your system is a mistake unless you have given them a one hour training course followed by practical and written examinations with a 90% score required to pass :D

I had a lodger's brother staying one time, I got home from work and stuck a record on 'This don't sound right.'

Went to investigate, deck was set on '45', the tracking weight was way off, the anti-skate way off. Turned out the bloke had tried to play a record but didn't realise that to make the platter turn you had to lift the arm. So he'd twiddled every single knob and adjustment possible, got no result and then just left it without saying a word to anyone.

:lol:


The same scenario in this house would definitely be my fault, regardless of circumstance.

I don't take any nonsense. :D

[Stranraer]

Yep, one of the big downsides of a cherished hifi is other bloody people in the vicinity, or even suggesting a visit.
Mine's in the living room where visitors crash if they're staying over, and I need mucho booze to sleep well in those circumstances.