View Full Version : Equipment racks - is the cost justifiable?
Phil Lawton
21-01-2021, 20:11
Looking around for a new rack for my gear at the moment, but am massively reluctant to pay the asking price of some of the items on offer.
Atacama, Hi-Fi Podiums and the like are asking £150-£200 per shelf; whilst I understand that quality materials are involved, they’d need to be hewn from the skeleton of a virgin unicorn to genuinely command the prices being asked.
Does anyone understand the reasoning behind the price points?
They charge what people are willing to pay.
Get a rack made by a chippie, and it would probably be cheaper.
Wakefield Turntables
21-01-2021, 20:16
Make your own. I have no experience, made my own, it looks ok. Cheaper than spending silly amounts.
Filterlab
21-01-2021, 20:25
I just use normal AV racks for mine; flat packed jobs. I’ve never heard any audible difference between normal furniture and hifi furniture (except that acrylic stuff that’s very bendy and wobbly - that made a heck of a difference!).
https://i.ibb.co/Qvh2gPc/8314-F9-B4-6249-4-F2-B-9214-6351-E142-CFE2.jpg (https://ibb.co/Jj8f1vd)
If you are happy gong it a try make your own. For example wooden shelves and legs a bit like hifi racks. Hardware available on ebay.
Sometimes decent racks come up secondhand, if wooden any ‘dings’ can be repaired or lived with.
I made mine from four larger diameter broom handles, and MDFG shelves, all polyurethaned and used spikes from Wilmslow.
Everyone laughed during the process, but now they think differently and say it looks good and is well made.
And I think commercially it has become another milking racket.
Hi
Should you fancy a bit diy then you might be interested in this
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/flexye.html
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/flexyfaq_e.html
I hope it helps
Regards
William
Phil if you knock up a rough drawing with sizes my son in law makes bespoke furniture.I have shown him some units and he laughed at the prices what they charge for them If intrested send me a pm and I will send you my email address and get a price for you
I use IKEA Lack coffee tables with legs cut to size, £17 per table [emoji6]
Ok some will say to watch the legs as they are hollow but they are pretty strong even cut down.
My power amp is 33kg and the TT is about 15kg at a guess, no issues.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210122/6e9126854994d6616c5bec04fc158360.jpg
The construction of the rack might affect - in fact almost certainly will affect - the sound of a turntable. For any other component it won't matter at all.
Lawrence001
22-01-2021, 10:21
My cd based system years ago sounded very different when I changed from a wooden shelf based Target rack to a glass based one. It had more treble and air and I realised I was listening to music more after the switch. The combination of wooden shelves and Arcam amps were just too boring.
The guy who bought the wooden shelf version was very pleased as he'd been looking out for one for the same (but opposite) reason.
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Phil Lawton
22-01-2021, 16:09
Cheers for all the feedback, chaps.
Phil Lawton
22-01-2021, 16:11
Hi
Should you fancy a bit diy then you might be interested in this
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/flexye.html
http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/flexyfaq_e.html
I hope it helps
Regards
William
Cheers, William
Unfortunately, I am profoundly unblessed with either the tools or the talent to build my own, but thanks for the pointers.
Phil Lawton
22-01-2021, 16:11
Phil if you knock up a rough drawing with sizes my son in law makes bespoke furniture.I have shown him some units and he laughed at the prices what they charge for them If intrested send me a pm and I will send you my email address and get a price for you
Cheers, Gerald - I'll do just that later tonight.
Many thanks.
Phil
I got an 'Old Charm' unit off ebay for £60. Solid as a rock, made of oak (I think). I did have to 'adjust' the back to accommodate the Luxman & in normal use I have the door open a little for ventilation. Just another option & a nice piece of furniture if you prefer things traditional.
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50462199466_015fa1821a_h.jpg
looks nice roy. ive a couple of those queen anne things you put speakers in back in day. i was going to retro fit them into speakers but illness beat me.. i like that unit. my bro had something similar that used to hold a hitachi stereo
looks nice roy. ive a couple of those queen anne things you put speakers in back in day. i was going to retro fit them into speakers but illness beat me.. i like that unit. my bro had something similar that used to hold a hitachi stereo
I think it was Dynatron who used to actually build their speakers and music centres into antique looking cabinets, I had a non-antiquey Dynatron amp and speakers, they really weren't very good.
I think it was Dynatron who used to actually build their speakers and music centres into antique looking cabinets, I had a non-antiquey Dynatron amp and speakers, they really weren't very good.
may well have been. the speakers were just inserted into the open back to make them look more like furniture. tbh they are a bit low and platforms would need done too so it became a bad idea.
I have an Ash Designs Cosmic and I would agree with you that they are expensive.
However, I have now had it for 20 years and it has never broken down or needed servicing, so I reckon it is doing quite well :D
WESTLOWER
22-01-2021, 18:02
I think it matters tremendously to the sound
But I’ll get shot down in flames for saying it
Noticed a huge difference in both analogue and digital presentations
When I purchased a ‘box furniture’ hifi cabinet.
But yup, ikea is cheaper and if you haven’t heard the difference you’ll never miss it .
It may itch a bit though
I have an Ash Designs Cosmic and I would agree with you that they are expensive.
However, I have now had it for 20 years and it has never broken down or needed servicing, so I reckon it is doing quite well :D
They look good - I like the styling, though I would prefer to avoid the use of glass shelves.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v514/pjdowns/Hifi19-02-06002.jpg
hifi_dave
23-01-2021, 16:59
Sold so many of those, back in the day and the chrome version was very popular.
Nowadays, many racks are so expensive, they make fine furniture look a bargain.
hifinutt
23-01-2021, 20:41
john at max has finite racks s/h at 5k !!!
https://www.midlandaudiox-change.co.uk/offers-used-exdem-equipment.html
john at max has finite racks s/h at 5k !!!
https://www.midlandaudiox-change.co.uk/offers-used-exdem-equipment.html
I bought the finite entry level one second hand at 400, quite a big improvement over basic a rack with more solid base etc. Wish I had kept it now.... idiot
Discopants
25-01-2021, 01:00
I think it matters tremendously to the sound
But I’ll get shot down in flames for saying it
Noticed a huge difference in both analogue and digital presentations
When I purchased a ‘box furniture’ hifi cabinet.
But yup, ikea is cheaper and if you haven’t heard the difference you’ll never miss it .
It may itch a bit though
I agree, once you get your system resolving enough it can be clearly audible even solid state amps.
Im just using an old Ikea TV unit , but I have 3 of these base units on the shelves Audio Exklusive d C d base. They really make a difference to imaging and especially bass. I also use footers between the units and these bases like Black ravioli but these were more effective (although i did add all 3 at once under my digital front end, solid state amp and isotek sigmas).
https://www.audio-exklusiv.de/en/accessory/mechanical/
I like the decoupling principle , you can do it much cheaper , bamboo chopping boards with sorbothane pods/disks on the bottom and rdc cones (or better still black ravioli pads) under you kit.
Definitely avoid glass shelves if you can but a set up like this on top will dampen most of the glass.
This way each component is isolated from the rest of your system and room. I think you will have to get a very well engineered rack to hear the equivalent improvement.
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I agree, once you get your system resolving enough it can be clearly audible even solid state amps.
So the material that the amplifier is sat on changes the electrical signal that it outputs? How is that possible?
If we all had the piece of equipment which the BBC designed for testing we could verify whether or not items are microphonic. It was call an Amp/Det, and had a gain of up to 70dB with a monitor O/P to feed into a loudspeaker.
In using it one could use this gain to listen to hum, thermionic, or microphonic noise at normal listening level through a monitor, and tap or shake the equipment to see any correlation between movement and noise O/P.
So what were the results?
Discopants
25-01-2021, 10:43
So the material that the amplifier is sat on changes the electrical signal that it outputs? How is that possible?
It has to be down to vibrations Macca.
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It has to be down to vibrations Macca.
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I've experienced the effect myself but I reckon it is entirely psychological.
Firstly it's been tested, solid state amps and DACs have been subjected to large amounts of vibration whilst output was measured, nothing changed.
Also if you think about the levels of vibration in an aircraft, and all the solid state electronics controlling the aircraft, if their performance was affected by that vibration it might have serious consequences. Gauges reading wrong and so forth, it would be a known issue in the real world, not just in hi-fi.
Discopants
25-01-2021, 11:40
I've experienced the effect myself but I reckon it is entirely psychological.
Firstly it's been tested, solid state amps and DACs have been subjected to large amounts of vibration whilst output was measured, nothing changed.
Also if you think about the levels of vibration in an aircraft, and all the solid state electronics controlling the aircraft, if their performance was affected by that vibration it might have serious consequences. Gauges reading wrong and so forth, it would be a known issue in the real world, not just in hi-fi.
Ahhh, just because you can’t measure it doesn’t mean you can’t hear it, or some people hear it in some systems to be more precise.
I don’t buy the aircraft analogy, the vibrational noise is low enough to keep the aircraft well within its operational parameters to keep it in the air.
I do not deny psychoacoustics , but I think most people with decent hearing could hear when I swapped out those 3 bases from under my system components.
Now, I’ll never convince some people of that on an internet forum but from my experience (and lots of experimentation with vibration control products). Vibration control can make audible improvements and its not just about analogue components. You can spend a lot of money on this stuff and it may make no difference in your system. IMO then you have exceptionally well designed and engineered kit that they have designed to dampen vibrations , or you kit is just not resolving enough, or some folks may just not be sensitive to hear it. I’m not going to debate this anymore than that, this is a subjectivists forum and these things just go circular.
Let your ears be the judge , but you should be able to repeat hearing these improvements.
If you want bang for your buck FO.q dampening tape ta32 and ta102 a pack of each about £40 a pack from japan. Extremely versatile in what you can do with it, if you just want to try 1 go for the thinner one its much more versatile.
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. I’m not going to debate this anymore than that, this is a subjectivists forum and these things just go circular.
Indeed but I wouldn't want anyone reading this thread to draw the conclusion that there is in any way a consensus on the matter.
Beobloke
25-01-2021, 12:16
I was always cynical about such things, although going from a good old black ash MDF MFI rack to a cheap set of Apollo shelves didn’t half make a difference! Mainly in lack of wobble, admittedly...
Then, a few years back I reviewed an Atacama Equinox Celebration rack with the twin layer isolated glass shelves.
Let’s just say that rack never went back to Atacama and I’ve since bought two more!
Discopants
25-01-2021, 13:07
Indeed but I wouldn't want anyone reading this thread to draw the conclusion that there is in any way a consensus on the matter.
From what i read, there is very little consensus on most things In audio reproduction apart from possibly in room speaker response where measurements tell you most of the story [emoji3]
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Totally in line with my experience Discopants !
The EVP's [https://avroomservice.com/evp-2/] are the only product that provided a significant sound improvement [repeatable] to my Sony Hapz1ES...
These were kindly donated for a "warts and all" review for my facebook group " hi fi tips and tweaks" unfortunately the whims of customs and excise decided that the advice given on there website ie products for review or demonstration purposes are free of duty The Operative with whom I had a very long correspondence over several months said " just because its say so on our website does not mean I can't demand duty from whom I please ".......yes and I am still annoyed 3 years down the line. So to release the items I paid the duty ..therefore I now own them rather than being a group demonstration item ..hay ho. I only say this to put my relationship with the vendor into context.
If you then marry the EVP's with say a TNT Flexy stand [ http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/flexye.html ]
you will have an equipment stand that will rival many at 10 times the build cost.
The old "sound organisation" tables (that started it all?) can still be found on eBay for reasonable money, I have some myself and think that they look quite cool. Whether or not they improve the sound is debatable (some would say they adversely affect solid state electronics by putting all the equipment transformers in close proximity).
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Sound-Organisation-Hifi-Stand-3-Tier-Glass-And-Board-Shelves-Resprayed-Excellent/293973174017?hash=item44722aa701:g:wD8AAOSwaXJgDrC r
I've experienced the effect myself but I reckon it is entirely psychological.
Lol - do you *really* think that's why I've got my kit under about 15 levels of Mana?;)
Come on... You should know what I'm like by now, mate; I *only* use stuff that genuinely WORKS! :exactly:
And I've been using and experimenting with 'foo racks' for well over 20 years... As I've said before, one of the reasons my system sounds so good is because of the dedicated mains and what it sits on, including all other aspects of supplying the system with the correct 'infrastructure', and the huge attention to detail I've paid in that respect to those areas.
Marco.
Indeed but I wouldn't want anyone reading this thread to draw the conclusion that there is in any way a consensus on the matter.
Or I'd hope also any consensus or implication that those who, from years of experience, *know* that well-designed equipment racks make a considerable difference to the sonic performance of the partnering equipment, are somehow 'imagining' the effect;)
Marco.
My turntable sits on an extension to a brick fireplace, and the electronics sit on either a wall-mounted shelf or on a record storage unit.
https://i.postimg.cc/QCTrkCKH/002.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/L5hPhFBn/003.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/CMQ1GnXL/001.jpg
What does that Concorde 'DJ' cartridge sound like, Barry, and what on earth possessed you to buy it?:D;)
Love the Revox CDP. Looks like it was used for broadcast purposes.
Marco.
What does that Concorde 'DJ' cartridge sound like, Barry, and what on earth possessed you to buy it?:D;)
Love the Revox CDP. Looks like it was used for broadcast purposes.
Marco.
It's an Ortofon moving coil cartridge and its 'Concorde' shape was used on later Ortofon fixed coil designs, which are now marketed and sold as DJ cartridges.
The MC200 came after the MC20 and MC30 designs and received mixed reviews: Martin Colloms in HiFi Choice rated it as 'average', whereas Noel Keyword in Practical Hi Fi (?) though well of it placing it alongside the likes of other MC cartridges such as Fidelity Research, Dynavector and Audio Technica. I have always wanted to try one and prefer it to both the MC20E I once had, and to the MC25FL, but IMO it's not as good as the early Ortofon MCs, or of the later SPUs.
Beobloke
25-01-2021, 23:07
Lol - do you *really* think that's why I've got all my kit under about 15 levels of Mana?l;)
.
Have you really?
Seriously?!!
Beobloke
25-01-2021, 23:08
It's an Ortofon moving coil cartridge and its 'Concorde' shape was used on later Ortofon fixed coil designs, which are now marketed and sold as DJ cartridges.
The MC200 came after the MC20 and MC30 designs and received mixed reviews: Martin Colloms in HiFi Choice rated it as 'average', whereas Noel Keyword in Practical Hi Fi (?) though well of it placing it alongside the likes of other MC cartridges such as Fidelity Research, Dynavector and Audio Technica. I have always wanted to try one and prefer it to both the MC20E I once had, and to the MC25FL, but IMO it's not as good as the early Ortofon MCs, or of the later SPUs.
A friend of mine has just bought the p-mount version and says it’s superb. Reckons it has transformed his SL-10
Have you really?
Seriously?!!
Yes - I've seen it!
He s a manas man. Full stop
Have you really?
Seriously?!!
Lol, yup. Had it since around 2002. My first proper hi-fi rack was a Target one, in 1999, and around the same time as I started experimenting with dedicated mains for hi-fi, then a dedicated earth, using multiple earth rods, etc.
Anyway, I've just counted the Mana, and one stack (currently housing my Copper amp and Tandberg tape deck), has 15 levels, and the other stack has 14 levels, including a 6-tier non-magnetic stainless steel rack, which is rare and made not long before the company went bust, which at the time alone cost £1800.
Each other 'level', or stage in Mana Acoustic parlance, cost £200 a pop, so work it out...;) Probably more than most people's whole systems cost.
I'll take some pics tomorrow. It makes a BIG contribution to the sound of my system (blind tested many times, when I was anal enough to worry about that stuff), and one of the main reasons I can achieve such a controlled and lifelike sound in such a small room, using 'wardrobes', containing 15" Tannoys as speakers, lol.
Marco.
I'll take some pics tomorrow. It makes a BIG contribution to the sound of my system blind tested many times,
.
What was the methodology of these tests? Were they double-blind? How many correct guesses out of how many attempts? Was the source a turntable or something else?
Lol - was that tongue in cheek?:D
Do you think I'm going to get into that here, engage in a tit for tat argument with you, and turn this thread (the likes of which always do) into a pointless objectivist vs. subjectivist bun fight?
Because no matter what I say, it won't change your entrenched views, and you won't change mine, so there's simply no point. But if you're going to play the age old 'you've imagined it' card, then I'm going to come and defend myself!
Just take my word for it, Martin - it's been tested, among sceptics and non-sceptics, in various ways, countless times, in countless different situations, homes and shows, with all manner of equipment, since I discovered Mana, previously having used the 'wobbly plastic' stuff Rob referred to earlier (Quadraspire Acrylic Reference), which was part of the AoS system we demo'd at Scalford in 2009, the (night and day level) obvious sonic effect of which many people heard.
Then latterly I used Naim Fraim [if you so desire, look it up], which I swapped for Mana (causing much rancour and controversy at the time in the forum world, as previously I was a very vocal and staunch 'non-ferrous' guy), then spent the ensuing years discussing, debating (in the inth detail) and fighting on forums (before AoS was born), about my views on the matter: the infamous, and at times brutally rabid, ferrous vs. non-ferrous 'stand wars':eek: - LONG before you discovered hi-fi forums!
So.... Honestly I've been three, done that and bought the t-shirt, three times over, and learned things in this area you haven't even thought of yet!:ner: I *AM* the standmeister:lol:;)
Anyway, pics to follow - if the light is good enough later!:cool:
Marco.
I have to agree on this due to my own experiences. What you plonk you equipment on will make a difference to how that equipment sounds, especially turntables but valve equipment also benefits from either isolation or proper support/rack/furniture.
Exactly my experience too, Jim. You don't have to go daft though (or loopy-loo crazy like me:eyebrows:), but simply something that looks nice, gets the kit up off the floor, and if you really want to hear differences, preferably something that's been deigned/engineered to address the effects of vibration/microphony in audio equipment.
Btw, at the other end of the scale, and complete opposite design principles from Mana (light and non-ferrous), here's some MusicWorks Revo madness: https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?20220-FS-Musicworks-Revo-3-tier-stand
:eek::D
Also a pic of Steve Toy's TD Copper amp (largely same as mine) sat atop his MW Revo rack, from the TD website (scroll down a bit): https://tubedistinctions.co.uk/project/the-copper-amps/
Yes, serious audiophiles pay proper attention to their 'system infrastructure' - it's not just all about the gear and the speakers!!;)
Marco.
The arguments between the subjectivist and objectivists abound on many forums, they bubbling under the surface in discussions about numerous audio topics, and often rearing their head, there seeming to be a lack of clarity about the philosophical nature of these stances.
Objectivism is concerned with verifying that a phenomenon really exists outside the subject’s self; the definition of objectivity is, “perceiving that which is outside the self”.
With much research and work, tools can, and have been developed, which enable a limited verification of aspects of phenomena, the results of which can be verified by the perception of all, and many quantified.
If we all sequentially touched a mains positive and negative terminals and received a shock in so doing, the subjective sensation from the event’s nature will probably be agreed on by all to a large extent.
If we apply a voltmeter to these terminals and measure a voltage, roughly 230V, we would probably all agree on the value indicated by reading the scale on that meter. Surely we all agree that this is a useful and consistent measurement following laws of science established over centuries of work by pioneers, and further verified by others.
This latter activity is one of the many tools used by objectivists to verify the existence of, and to attempt to quantify, external phenomena, but the act of perceiving is actually a subjective event, it being done by the self through the self’s senses, so we are in a limited sense, being subjective when we are using a tool which measures, and even quantifies something external to us, using a tool to verify objectively.
This subjective experience does not invalidate the verifiability of the measured phenomenon, and assuming that the science resulting from the endeavour of numerous scientists is valid, and it should be after so many esteemed scientists have questioned and verified it by experiment, this process is an ancillary support to the process of understanding But it does not, as in the case of all science, fully encompass all there is to know about the phenomenon, it is not an entire treatise, just a limited aid and a tool. Surely it is dangerous to think that on the basis of human perception only, one can fully understand or evaluate anything external to the self without enquiry and analysis.
The real danger in presuming this latter comes from our being very complexed animals, top heavy with a great deal of psychology, much of which is not associated with the particular isolated situation under investigation, and we are therefore subject to potential crosstalk contamination of our perceptions by this enormous database and currency of activity, all of which is influenced by our needs for self esteem, and social pressures.
DBT is a good tool, but the real problem is that subjects become tense and anxious when they know they are under scrutiny in a test situation, again the psychology being a potential result contamination problem.
It is very much these problems with 'the divide', which excite me, because they are applicable to much of human existence.
Some good observations there (as usual from you when the discussion revolves around psychology/human behaviourism), a subject that also fascinates me, and which I agree manifests itself in seemingly unpredictable/unusual areas, such as what we're discussing here. If I get time, I'll touch upon some of the points you made:)
In the meantime, for Adam and anyone else interested in 'Marco's Mana Madness', here are some pics of the current state of play. 29 'levels' in total:
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/ZHr0xy.jpg
Not only Mana madness lol, but 'mains madness':eyebrows::
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/Qk074P.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/kY6shd.jpg
Pics include (at the forefront) a Tube Distinctions 'digital noise'/mains filter, which feeds my Sony transport and DAC, cleans up the mains and reduces the effects of 'digital glare' from CD replay [what sometimes can cause a slightly fatiguing or 'hard' sound], connected with a Schuko plug and socket to the incoming dedicated mains, plus very heavy-duty solid-core pure copper mains cables, all hardwired directly to the same mains supply, via a series of 100A junction boxes. supplying power to all equipment, at the other end fitted mainly with Furutech FI-50 carbon-fibre IECs.
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/923/R2JPWz.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1024x768q90/924/bWTbH5.jpg
And a 'wee speaker' at the back, shown from the listening position... So there you go!:D:eyebrows:
Equipment racks - is the cost justifiable? Possibly....:lol:
Marco.
Beobloke
26-01-2021, 12:45
But....but.....why?
The Mana stuff was before my time but whenever I’ve asked people to explain what the theory was behind it, the threads descend into warfare before anyone manages to answer.
It looks crazy and I will admit that my first thought is that’s it’s very possibly daft, but I’m genuinely interested to know what the thinking was behind it.
That is some serious equipment rackage!:)
Lol - was that tongue in cheek?:D
Do you think I'm going to get into that here, engage in a tit for tat argument with you, and turn this thread (the likes of which always do) into a pointless objectivist vs. subjectivist bun fight?
Because no matter what I say, it won't change your entrenched views, and you won't change mine, so there's simply no point. But if you're going to play the age old 'you've imagined it' card, then I'm going to come and defend myself!
Just take my word for it, Martin -
I know what I think about this and no amount of talking to me about it is going to change my mind, however a success in a blind test would.
You were the one who claimed you had passed a blind test with the Mana so I am interested to know the details of how the test was constructed, to see how credible it was.
I'm surprise that I have not heard of this before as there is still a fair bit of debate regarding the efficacy of Mana on various forums from time to time and this test never gets brought up as proof that it does make a difference.
Off course if a turntable was the source then that would explain everything as no-one disputes that anything a turntable sits on can potentially change how it sounds, sometimes quite a large change.
But if the source was a CD player or tape deck that's a different ballgame as there is no known mechanism by which the output of such devices could be changed by the material they are sat on. So a successful blind test there would indeed be of interest, and not just to me.
I know what I think about this and no amount of talking to me about it is going to change my mind...
Indeed, which is why any discussion about it is pointless, as even if I outlined how the blind testing was done, it won't have been good enough:eyebrows: The above does show a significant element of closedmindedness on your part though, but at least you're honest!:D
Marco.
But....but.....why?
The Mana stuff was before my time but whenever I’ve asked people to explain what the theory was behind it, the threads descend into warfare before anyone manages to answer.
It looks crazy and I will admit that my first thought is that’s it’s very possibly daft, but I’m genuinely interested to know what the thinking was behind it.
Lol - if I can be arsed I'll throw out some theories later. As to "why", I've already explained that (scroll back) - and of course the 'crazy look' is why it's housed in a room dedicated for the purpose, no bullshit WAF to worry about!!:D
Marco.
That is some serious equipment rackage!:)
Lol - just like the wife told you last night?:D;)
Marco.
Indeed, which is why any discussion about it is pointless, as even if I outlined how the blind testing was done, it won't have been good enough:eyebrows: Does show a significant element of closedmindedness on your part though, but at least you're honest!:D
Marco.
I think what you mean by a blind test is not what I mean, or indeed the accepted meaning. Otherwise you'd be happy to give the full details, maybe even a link to the experimental write-up.
I'm happy that you are happy with your Mana and that you perceive it as making a real difference. No issue with that. As Discopants quite rightly pointed out the other day this is a subjectivist forum, so I was happy to leave it there.
I do think though, that if you are going to walk on the objective side and claim that there is scientific evidence of the Mana effect, which is what you did, then you should back that up with the evidence.
I think what you mean by a blind test is not what I mean, or indeed the accepted meaning. Otherwise you'd be happy to give the full details, maybe even a link to the experimental write-up.
Pretty much yes it is, but I can't be arsed going there, as that's not what this thread is or should be about.
It should be about discussing the use of equipment racks, by people with relevant knowledge and experience, not simply an excuse for naysayers to pooh-pooh anything that doesn't fit with their (rather blinkered) scientific belief system;)
Therefore, I will NOT allow this thread to go the way of countless thousands of others, over the years on different forums, where discussions descend into acrimony between one side and the other, so unless you have some relevant knowledge to impart, as someone who's experimented in depth with equipment supports, or anything else of constructive use to the OP, then I suggest you refrain from further commenting.
I do think though, that if you are going to walk on the objective side and claim that there is scientific evidence of the Mana effect, which is what you did, then you should back that up with the evidence.
And unless you're a qualified psychologist, the same also applies to YOU, when making rather rude and unsubstantiated claims about people (including me) 'imagining' things!!:ner:
That's why you got this response (red flag to a bull), as it's typical of those with objectivist leanings when it comes to these types of discussions. Quite simply, just because on the surface, the 'laws of physics' don't *appear* to confirm something, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
Now let's leave it there. From now on, this thread will be about people's genuine experiences with equipment supports, positive or negative - NOTHING else. Ta.
Marco.
Phil Lawton
26-01-2021, 14:27
What have I started?
Lol - worry not, Phil. These types of threads often get a little 'heated', but the difference here is that I won't allow things to get out of control or turn into a bun fight, lasting for countless pages, before giving up trying to moderate it, and end up binning the lot:doh: as indeed frequently happens elsewhere;)
I would ask everyone to remember that AoS is (and always will be) a staunchly pro-subjectivist. 'ears first' forum, and so whilst you can disagree with someone's subjectivist views, and challenge them accordingly, robustly if necessary, but politely, it is totally unacceptable to imply that someone has 'imagined' something, simply because what they're saying is seemingly at odds with 'the science'.
'Proof' of anything works both ways, and that includes proving that a person has been 'fooled' into believing that something exists, but which isn't genuine. That simply can't be done unless you can get inside their heads.....!
There are many genuine things we can hear in audio, but as yet remain unproven. However, that doesn't automatically mean they don't exist - and so I won't have these types of discussions essentially shut down by naysayers intent only on 'winning' an argument!
It stifles discussion, and worse scares off folk who may have bought some form of, what's often ignorantly and discourteously referred to as 'foo', and who simply want to discuss their experiences of it with other likeminded people, without essentially being made to feel like a fool!:rolleyes:
That does not serve the subjectivist ethos this site was founded upon, which some folks might like to familiarise themselves with again, by reading the 'Our Ethos' section, or subsequently allow the relating of subjective experiences among the membership, with a view to promoting new learning.
Anyway, I just wanted to nail that one on the head. When I get the chance later, I'll comment on your opening post and offer some constructive advice, based on my not inconsiderable experience in this area:cool:
Marco.
Lol - just like the wife told you last night?:D;)
Marco.
:lol::lol:
It is interesting that equipment racks have been manufactured from just about every material going, glass, plastic, metal wood, stone,laminate etc and sometimes a combination of materials. Each material has differing levels of acoustic vibration , knock on a piece of wood and then a sheet of glass and you can simply hear it never mind feel it and therefore will also effect whatever is sitting on it.
The clever bit is to fashion the materials into an effective support that does not add vibration back into your equipment or unduly affect its performance hence why some serious manufacturers have investigated this and invested product development to find effective solutions. I don't believe one solution fits all and indeed difference equipment responds to different materials in either a negative or positive way.
Obvious pieces of kit like a turntable are highly susceptible to vibration and the materials upon which they sit but so are DACs or anything with a crystal oscillator as are indeed valve amps. I have found that everything in a system does respond to where and on what it is placed and so equipment racks are a key part of a systems performance.
In an ideal world you would keep trying different racks made from different materials to find which one suited your equipment best but this is both very time consuming and expensive but as i found with a very substantial piece of new furniture gains in sound quality can be quite profound.
:lol::lol:
Tee-hee... Or not, as they case may be!:D
Btw, on another note, I should add that the only remaining genuine bit of Mana, from the stacks I posted pics of earlier, is the 6-tier tack, which I kept a) because it works really well, and b) because it's one of about only 6 made, shortly before the company went bust, and would command a considerable price on ebay, from aficionados.
The rest are replicas I had made at a local ironworks, to the same spec as the originals, which I sold for a tidy sum. The replicas perform exactly the same function at a fraction of the price. For example, an official Mana Soundstage or 'level' used to sell for £200. I had the same things made for £45...;)
As they say, ching, ching, that's ASDA price!:eyebrows:
Marco.
Are the manas not being made again? Thought I read something
Not that I'm aware of, mate. I was friends with the owner (John Watson), indeed we still exchange Xmas cards, and haven't heard anything. He must be 70 now and doesn't need the money, so unless he's sold the rights to someone else who's making the stands, which of course is possible:)
Marco.
It is interesting that equipment racks have been manufactured from just about every material going, glass, plastic, metal wood, stone,laminate etc and sometimes a combination of materials. Each material has differing levels of acoustic vibration , knock on a piece of wood and then a sheet of glass and you can simply hear it never mind feel it and therefore will also effect whatever is sitting on it.
The clever bit is to fashion the materials into an effective support that does not add vibration back into your equipment or unduly affect its performance hence why some serious manufacturers have investigated this and invested product development to find effective solutions. I don't believe one solution fits all and indeed difference equipment responds to different materials in either a negative or positive way.
Obvious pieces of kit like a turntable are highly susceptible to vibration and the materials upon which they sit but so are DACs or anything with a crystal oscillator as are indeed valve amps. I have found that everything in a system does respond to where and on what it is placed and so equipment racks are a key part of a systems performance.
In an ideal world you would keep trying different racks made from different materials to find which one suited your equipment best but this is both very time consuming and expensive but as i found with a very substantial piece of new furniture gains in sound quality can be quite profound.
Good post, Jim - exactly my experience. You're also spot on with the bits in bold, although for me it's more about which 'solution' best addresses the conditions present in a specific environment, with regards to vibration, than the equipment itself necessarily responding to different materials, although there could be a bit of both:)
TBH, in all the years I've been into hi-fi, it's no coincidence that the best sounding systems I've heard have always been those where the owner has paid proper attention to set up, and getting what I call the 'infrastructure' right.
Therefore, if I was advising a newbie to this game on how best to build a system that would provide long term sonic and musical satisfaction and/or create a platform that would ably highlight what the electronics were doing (therefore reducing the likelihood of making mistakes, simply through writing off kit that in reality hasn't been heard properly), it would be to spend 30% of their budget on decent stands and cables, and which in the long term would provide dividends.
Too many people fixate far too much on simply the boxes and speakers, and as a result end up with no more than a mediocre sound, compared with what the same gear could be capable of, if set up more carefully or differently - and I have demonstrated that effect many times, not only with visitors to my home, or at shows, but also when I worked in hi-fi retail.
Consequently, more often than not, I'm able to visit people, listen to their systems, and if they're willing, notably improve the sound for FREE, simply by applying a few well-known tweaks, never mind anything else... You simply can't put a price on experience:cool:
Marco.
Lol - do you *really* think that's why I've got my kit under about 15 levels of Mana?;)
Come on... You should know what I'm like by now, mate; I *only* use stuff that genuinely WORKS! :exactly:
And I've been using and experimenting with 'foo racks' for well over 20 years... As I've said before, one of the reasons my system sounds so good is because of the dedicated mains and what it sits on, including all other aspects of supplying the system with the correct 'infrastructure', and the huge attention to detail I've paid in that respect to those areas.
Marco.
Surely if it worked, you would only need one layer? ;)
well if 1 layer is 90%, 2 is 98.1% etc.. or is it 99..:scratch:
Surely if it worked, you would only need one layer?
Lol, erm no... Simply because one 'layer' only isolates the equipment to a certain degree. Therefore, the effect is increased cumulatively by additional 'layers', simply because the issue of vibrational energy, adversely affecting equipment performance, is always present to a certain extent, thus never fully eradicated.
Of course, like anything else, the improvement gained is subject to the laws of diminishing returns, and so rather like wine, once you get past the £20 a bottle mark, further improvements become much more subtle... From experience, I'd say that the sweet spot is 'Phase 4' - i.e one rack and three additional'layers', but the difference, sonically, between that and, say 'Phase 15', such as I have, is significant and worthwhile, somewhat like upgrading from a 10 year-old single malt, to a notably superior 15-year old;)
However, an indisputable advantage, with 'tall stacks', such as mine, is that all your gear is at a convenient height to work with (unless you're a midget, lol), so there's none of that getting down on your hands and knees to change kit or cables, which I detest, plus I've also ensured that there's similarly plenty of room at the back to facilitate neat 'cable dressing', rather than jumbles of cables looking like the usual out of control 'spaghetti'!:eek:
All my cables, both mains and signal, are well up from the floor and away from side walls, fully separated, and hanging neatly in free space, which not only sounds better, but makes it a damn sight easier to work with:cool:
In any case, it's pretty pointless (unless there's anything in what Grant said) discussing a defunct and long-discontinued product, unless anyone here was sufficiently motivated to go down the route of fabricating the design, and making copies, as I did, and in which case I'd be more than willing to help:)
Marco.
A genuine question. What stops the glass shelves (sat on all those isolation platforms) from vibrating due to the sound waves?
You must have felt the vibration in the shelves at some point when the volume is up a little?
Nope. There's no vibration felt anywhere on the rack itself, even when music is pumping out at very loud levels in that small room with those huge speakers, and with the R/H one only about 3ft away from the first stack!!;)
There are two strips, stuck onto each piece of glass, which help 'tune' the shelf to a certain frequency, and which in turn is supported evenly on each corner by four stainless steel spikes, which you adjust so that when fitted and tapped with no equipment on, the shelves make a 'bong' sound, rather than an unpleasant sounding 'clang', caused if the tip of one spike has either been very slightly overextended or not extended enough up towards the glass.
Then of course you have the weight of the equipment itself on top, to dampen any vibrations... You really need to see the arrangement in place to understand properly how it all works. The key is in how each piece of material used combines to help dissipate energy from the equipment, and the more 'layers' you have, the more successful the effect is.
Therefore, in that respect, from the ground up, with each 'layer', there is floor > 4 spikes > metal > 4 spikes > laminated MDF board > 4 spikes, and so forth for each 'layer', until you get to a rack housing the equipment, when then on the last MDF board, sat atop you have the four downward spikes of the rack itself, then a layer of metal and four upwards facing spikes, which support the first glass shelf (fitted with the aforementioned 'tuning strips'), with the former arrangement repeated on each available glass shelf, until you reach the top.
It's entirely modular, and ultimately only restricted by the height of your ceiling, or depth of your pockets!:D
Marco.
What I find a little disappointing in general on forums is the lack of forbearance by members when facing a little adversity. We will all, if we develop, find our own paths, and they will be different from those of others, but this does not have to result in rancour.
Maybe many here would not like the sound of my system and would change many things in it if it were theirs, but expression of that in an aggressive or offensive way is unnecessary, and serves to sabotage progress in understanding by all.
I hope that anyone would just humbly and sensitively offer suggestions about the sound, and how it may be improved. This is what used to happen many years ago when I was an apprentice in a hostel in which many people were building systems and comparing them, and with excitement and cooperation helping each other.
We have to learn to live with the tensions involved in unresolved issues as a part of life, and deal with that whilst trying to resolve things.
I acquired a book, Contrary Imaginations which deals particularly with the personality types able to deal with the intensity of a lack of resolution in situations, and the author argues that developing this ability gives great advantages.
I haven't placed much importance on equipment racks, initially because of the heavy investment and my relative poverty, and they may indeed be significant, but ABing and DB tests can be very expensive, this also applying to all of the equipment.
What I find a little disappointing in general on forums is the lack of forbearance by members when facing a little adversity. We will all, if we develop, find our own paths, and they will be different from those of others, but this does not have to result in rancour.
I totally agree, Dennis. The problem is, when challenging someone's observations on subjective matters, such as on this thread, the efficacy of equipment supports, it's never going to be well received when without any real experience/knowledge of the subject in question, you rather lazily imply that the user in question has imagined hearing differences, simply in the absence of 'scientific proof' to the contrary. And I'm not just talking about my argument here yesterday with Martin - it's an age-old problem on forums, caused largely by stubborn intransigence, but also a reluctance to investigate or accept the unknown.
In my view, too many of us crave certainty and desire for everything in life either to be black or white (ignoring the shades of grey in between) and for our learning experiences/facts we've formed to be neatly pigeonholed into boxes marked as 'done and dusted', never to be challenged. It's not only craving certainty that's the problem, but fearing what we've always believed as true being proven wrong.
Now I'm not saying for one second that things aren't imagined, as we all have the potential to succumb to expectation bias or other psychological effects that can make things appear as real when they're not, but the point is there is no way of proving that conclusively, and certainly simply because whatever is being suggested *appears on the surface* not to comply with 'the science', doesn't qualify as conclusive proof that whatever is being claimed is false. It may be that a new phenomenon has been successfully identified, or an area that hitherto hasn't yet been properly explored, now requires further investigation.
However, I doubt that anyone posting on a hi-fi forum has the wherewithal or ability to conduct such an exercise properly, in order to arrive at a truly meaningful conclusion, so in order to PROMOTE discussion of these matters, rather than them simply being shut down by people saying 'bollox, you've just imagined it because the science says so', we should be putting our own biases aside and giving people the benefit of the doubt, even if it means challenging our own belief system (scientific or otherwise) and allowing users of items such as stands, cables, mains accessories, and other such products, the claimed effects of which are subjective, to be properly discussed, rather than dismissed, as that way we might actually learn something new!
That's the approach I want to see here, and the display of genuine open-mindedness and a willingness to LEARN and embrace the unknown (on both sides of the divide), rather than when subjects like this come up, them simply being shot down in flames by the entrenched views of those who mistakenly think that all there is to know about such matters is already known, which instead displays more pigheaded intransigence than anything else, and also which does a gross disservice to the true meaning of the scientific process.
Real scientists have the most enquiring of minds and an insatiable thirst for knowledge, and also accept that life is a constant learning curve; they're not so arrogant as to assume that they already know the answers to everything, including the complexities of the subject of audio!:)
Marco.
Blake said; "A man convinced against is will is of the same opinion still".
And often he makes a fool of himself by so doing.
Look at how Copernicus was regarded, and how Galileo was treated, ten years in prison for expressing his views, that were eventually proven to be true.
Indeed, so why do people so fear their 'truths' being challenged, and historically fight against, so-called heretics, who dare challenge them? What's the big deal?
Surely, knowing the REAL truth, i.e. reality, is far better than living in a blinkered fantasy world, simply because it's become the accepted norm? I don't get it...:hmm: What if 'the science', driving the prevailing orthodoxy is wrong, or simply being misinterpreted? If so, surely it deserves to be challenged?
My brain simply isn't wired that way, and would far rather know the truth, than hide behind the safety of my preconceptions. Free-thinkers, unhindered by dogma, and those able to think outside the box/apply lateral thinking, should be lauded, not lambasted!
Marco.
Lawrence001
27-01-2021, 20:43
The issue is that in many areas there is no truth, just opinion. Good Vs bad sounding racks is one area. (Notice I don't say lively Vs dead racks as this would be measurable).
I've found in many contexts that reducing distorting effects towards zero can often deaden the sound to boringness. Eg. Mass loading speaker stands/bases. Zero distortion is not always the best distortion. (I include the effects of vibration in this.) Otherwise why do people like valves?
Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk
Indeed, Lawrence, but if you've read my last post, you'll see that I wasn't talking about racks, but HUMAN NATURE:)
Marco.
Science is as prone to error as any other thinking, but it does attempt to test its theories and verify them, whereas some belief systems are purely dogma with no reference to verifying any realities.
Lawrence001
28-01-2021, 14:50
Indeed, Lawrence, but if you've read my last post, you'll see that I wasn't talking about racks, but HUMAN NATURE:)
Marco.Ha serves me right for scanning the thread to quickly before replying!
Btw some vintage Koss headphones just arrived must post some pics later...
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Lol - always a bad habit mate, which I've sometimes been guilty of myself! Enjoy the Koss - which ones are they, and were you influenced by my comments on mine?:)
Marco.
Lawrence001
28-01-2021, 23:37
ESP6a's I've been after a pair for a while but your thread reminded me to look again.
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When I see photos of peoples systems in forums, they always look better in my opinion, in a well made cabinet rather than a rack. If you must get a rack here's one that might suit https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/pro-audio-bono-pab-3-tier-equipment-stand.248742/
Sorry I haven't read all 9 pages of this thread. :)
Sure, David, if the aim is simply for things to look 'pretty', and of course if you like black ash look (or whatever wood the rack shown is made from), and personally I'm not a fan. I prefer lighter woods, such as oak or ash.
However, the design principles of some racks are about more than just looks....;)
Marco.
When I see photos of peoples systems in forums, they always look better in my opinion, in a well made cabinet rather than a rack. If you must get a rack here's one that might suit https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/pro-audio-bono-pab-3-tier-equipment-stand.248742/
Sorry I haven't read all 9 pages of this thread. :)
RRP is £2650! sorry but thats ridiculous.
RRP is £2650! sorry but thats ridiculous.
:eek:
Sure, David, if the aim is simply for things to look 'pretty', and of course if you like black ash look (or whatever wood the rack shown is made from), and personally I'm not a fan. I prefer lighter woods, such as oak or ash.
However, the design principles of some racks are about more than just looks....;)
Marco.
Luckily it wasn't you that was asking for advice on a rack Marco. For many looks are important, and would be prepared to forgo that last 1% in sq for a less industrial look. It is also possible to isolate individual components which may be a little more discreet.
RRP is £2650! sorry but thats ridiculous.
That's why my link would be a good buy, and would probably make a noticeable difference in sq. I did recommend this rack to my brother since it would be capable of housing his Humboldt amp, not an easy task due to size and weight.
Luckily it wasn't you that was asking for advice on a rack Marco. For many looks are important, and would be prepared to forgo that last 1% in sq for a less industrial look. It is also possible to isolate individual components which may be a little more discreet.
Oh I don't disagree. Just pointing out that for some, racks are about more than just looks (indeed those that simply look 'pretty' often do little or nothing to improve SQ, save getting the kit up off the floor), and of course that 'looks nice' is entirely subjective!:)
IME, it's more often than not the 'ugly bastard' racks, which clearly have been designed or engineered [with considerable thought] to have some sort of purpose, other than simply acting as furniture, which usually provide the biggest gains in SQ....;)
Plus, if you have a dedicated room for your system (count me in), which you can do what you want in, you don't need to worry about 'looks', just sound!:hairmetal:
Marco.
:eek:
Couldn't agree more, but the link I showed was for a used stand at less than half price. Here's a nice sideboard, there are many to choose from and this was the first one that took my eye https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Mid-Century-G-Plan-Fresco-Teak-Danish-Style-Sideboard-on-Hairpin-Legs/333880238831?hash=item4dbcd022ef:g:hU4AAOSwmsdgHbf r
One could add individual isolation for each component, I would like to try these https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001395614190.html?spm=a2g0s.8937460.0.0.70be2e 0ej2Cl9H
although they may not even be needed. Compare the price of my suggestions against the very popular HiFi Racks solution (which I also think look good) and would you really be able to tell the difference in sound quality?
Pigmy Pony
06-02-2021, 18:14
Somebody help me out here... surely racks/shelves will only affect airborne and footfall vibrations coming up through the components' feet, so what about when you have a full-range speaker beaming God-knows-what directly at the sides/fronts of your sources and amplification? I would have thought getting that stuff out of the "firing line" would yield the biggest benefits.
Problem is usually the unit vibrating at a frequency. Stopping that usually does the trick. Sure you can go further but most just want to stop sympathetic resonance. Glass can cause this with mechanical things and transformers etc. I'm no expert but when I lifted the psu of my MF A1000 off glass it was surprisingly different. Obvious y I cd an only talk re my experiences.. That was one
Pigmy Pony
06-02-2021, 19:45
Interesting... so benefits will be heard even when listening through headphones... I have no intention of changing my glass-shelved Atacama rack, but perhaps then using some sort of isolation for specific components could be well worthwhile. not really considered it before. My amp is a fairly chunky MF jobbie - might be a good place to start :)
And does anyone have any thoughts on glass shelves with Technics SL1200- based decks, or is it a case of trying things and see what happens?
Discopants
07-02-2021, 01:49
Try some things Steve, blu tack or similar might be able to dampen glass which you may hear. Felt backed bamboo chopping board under your kit is touted about and if you don’t hear anything at least you have a chopping board.
Springs (some guys using auto springs to good effect) of the right stiffness for the weight of your kit, the more you can float of your system the better. Speakers benefit well decoupled , this sends less vibrations through your floor and can help your other components in the system
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I think Struth has nailed it there with 'vibrating at the frequency'.
I believe tt's are most affected by vibration so getting your tt isolated is important Steve. I use a butchers block with 4 sorbothane domes underneath, one at each corner and my tt has pointy feet which then sits on the butchers block, on the top shelf of my rack. You can also look on You Tube for more ideas
Pigmy Pony
07-02-2021, 08:39
Thanks guys, for some interesting and helpful suggestions. And apologies for the thread hijack. I think I will start with "butchers block" under the amp (as that would potentially benefit CD and vinyl replay). If I can find one big enough. And some kind of isolation feet for the tts psu.
I did get some kind of foam slab material to go under the speakers last year (as suggested by Adrian (AJSki2fly) but can't for the life of me remember what it was called. I'll pm him later.
Great idea, Ikea had some large size butchers blocks, can't remember the name of it but it began with the letter A. I got mine from Argos, but they no longer stock it. The Ikea ones are made from Bamboo and so is mine.
Here's one on ebay, not very thick and I guess you would have to saw of the end with the lip, but you could buy 2 and add an extra layer of isolation https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Ikea-Lamplig-Wooden-chopping-Serving-board-bamboo-Use-Both-Sides-2-size/293888239757?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item446d1aa88d:
Her's another one but unsure if 33cms wouldm be deep enough for you, https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FAME-Bamboo-Wooden-Food-Cutting-Chopping-Board-Serving-Platter-4-SELECT-SIZE/173404526098?hash=item285fb71612:g:sJIAAOSwic5bRQx 4
Here's the one from Ikea https://www.ikea.com/us/en/p/aptitlig-butcher-block-bamboo-00233429/
Someone on YouTube purchased two of these and used 4 ball bearings and placed them in the groove on top and the turned the other one upside down and lined up the grooves so the ball bearings were separating the two boards and they were in the grooves. Just another idea.
And does anyone have any thoughts on glass shelves with Technics SL1200- based decks, or is it a case of trying things and see what happens?
Steve, I don't know if you're able to accommodate a wall shelf for your T/T, but IME good ones (not necessarily expensive either) improve the sound of turntables more than racks, generally due to improved isolation, as walls are usually less susceptible to vibration than floors:)
I use a double-layered HiFi Racks Podium Platform, for my Techy: https://www.hifiracks.co.uk/collections/wall-mounts/products/podium-platform
Highly recommended!:cool:
Marco.
Pigmy Pony
08-02-2021, 06:45
Steve, I don't know if you're able to accommodate a wall shelf for your T/T, but IME good ones (not necessarily expensive either) improve the sound of turntables more than racks, generally due to improved isolation, as walls are usually less susceptible to vibration than floors:)
I use a double-layered HiFi Racks Podium Platform, for my Techy: https://www.hifiracks.co.uk/collections/wall-mounts/products/podium-platform
Highly recommended!:cool:
Marco.
Cheers Marco, a wall shelf is something I have considered, as my rack sits on carpeted floorboards. I've no doubt I would hear some real benefit :)
That is a very good looking shelf! But it would have to be black, or it would stick out like a sore thumb. Remember this is our lounge, not a listening room, unfortunately, And the deck (with its cover) has a very large footprint, and those two requirements combined effectively double the cost. But you've planted the seed now, and i can't unsee it, damn you! :D
Cheers Marco, a wall shelf is something I have considered, as my rack sits on carpeted floorboards. I've no doubt I would hear some real benefit :)
That is a very good looking shelf! But it would have to be black, or it would stick out like a sore thumb. Remember this is our lounge, not a listening room, unfortunately, And the deck (with its cover) has a very large footprint, and those two requirements combined effectively double the cost. But you've planted the seed now, and i can't unsee it, damn you! :D
Yeah, he s got me thinking as well ?, would have to be on me 1 solid wall though otherwise could see it all going nipples up :eyebrows:
walpurgis
08-02-2021, 08:35
It may go against the grain for many, but the cheap, clip together plastic shelving units have their place. They are usually made from an ABS type material and have the unique benefit of ultra low energy storage. I use a sturdy wall mounted shelf for the TT and a steel stand for amplifiers etc., but find a plastic shelving unit works fine for CD players and DACs. I do put meaty Sorbothane pads under the component feet though. It works!
(and I don't care about the looks :D)
Cheers Marco, a wall shelf is something I have considered, as my rack sits on carpeted floorboards. I've no doubt I would hear some real benefit :)
That is a very good looking shelf! But it would have to be black, or it would stick out like a sore thumb. Remember this is our lounge, not a listening room, unfortunately, And the deck (with its cover) has a very large footprint, and those two requirements combined effectively double the cost. But you've planted the seed now, and i can't unsee it, damn you! :D
make sure its a sound, solid wall tho. if the wall has, say an internal staircase attached it might not be suitable as well.
Pigmy Pony
08-02-2021, 21:03
It may go against the grain for many, but the cheap, clip together plastic shelving units have their place. They are usually made from an ABS type material and have the unique benefit of ultra low energy storage. I use a sturdy wall mounted shelf for the TT and a steel stand for amplifiers etc., but find a plastic shelving unit works fine for CD players and DACs. I do put meaty Sorbothane pads under the component feet though. It works!
(and I don't care about the looks :D)
No, me neither, but you know what women can be like. Don't mind it sounding shit as long as it looks good. Bit like me and my singing. I'd have been out on my ear long ago if I weren't so damned good looking :)
No, me neither, but you know what women can be like. Don't mind it sounding shit as long as it looks good. Bit like me and my singing. I'd have been out on my ear long ago if I weren't so damned good looking :)Lucky you, I had to get by with my singing[emoji16]
Cheers Marco, a wall shelf is something I have considered, as my rack sits on carpeted floorboards. I've no doubt I would hear some real benefit :)
That is a very good looking shelf! But it would have to be black, or it would stick out like a sore thumb. Remember this is our lounge, not a listening room, unfortunately, And the deck (with its cover) has a very large footprint, and those two requirements combined effectively double the cost. But you've planted the seed now, and i can't unsee it, damn you! :D
Apologies for the late reply... Well, I think they also do them in black, but best to check:)
And yes, you really need a solid wall and for it to be fixed super-securely. I got DarrenHW (of this parish) to fit mine, as he's a builder and did a superb job of it, far better than the dog's dinner I'd have made of it! You're handy though, so I'm sure you'd be fine.
Follow the thread here (post 10 is particularly useful):https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?40615-New-turntable-wall-shelf-chez-Marco&highlight=marco%27s+turntable+wall+shelf ] and you'll be able to read what he secured it with (Thunderbolt fasteners). However, in terms of isolating any turntable from the effects of its surrounding environment, and maximising sonics, a well-designed and solid wall shelf, IME, has no equals:cool:
Marco.
Pigmy Pony
09-02-2021, 20:43
Apologies for the late reply... Well, I think they also do them in black, but best to check:)
And yes, you really need a solid wall and for it to be fixed super-securely. I got DarrenHW (of this parish) to fit mine, as he's a builder and did a superb job of it, far better than the dog's dinner I'd have made of it! You're handy though, so I'm sure you'd be fine.
Follow the thread here (post 10 is particularly useful):https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?40615-New-turntable-wall-shelf-chez-Marco&highlight=marco%27s+turntable+wall+shelf ] and you'll be able to read what he secured it with (Thunderbolt fasteners). However, in terms of isolating any turntable from the effects of its surrounding environment, and maximising sonics, a well-designed and solid wall shelf, IME, has no equals:cool:
Marco.
Yes they do them in black, I'd checked. But it is all a bit pricey by the time you select the largest size (my deck is a big heavy lump) which makes it £273. The black option then bumps the price to £383. But it's so good looking it's ruined other shelfs for me. So I'll look out for a used one and paint it meself if it's the wrong colour :)
And yeah I could fit it myself, I'm the thunderbolt master (according to all the women). Get through dozens every week (thunderbolts, not women) :D
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