Amplifier for everyday use to go with JMlab Spectral 913.1 recommendations

[Stony]

I am looking for recommendations for an everyday use amp to go with JMlab Spectral 913.1 speakers.
My top amp is still going to be a GM70 valves based one.
But I need something to backup it as not always it makes sense to warm it up.
Also my wife is scared to use it when I am not home.
My budget is up to about £1000, it can be less or more.
I do not have any specific requirements that has to be pre-amp+ power amp or integrated one.
So far as a backup amp I have got old nad 3020 or a younger one - nad 320bee.

Any ideas ?

Cheers
Stef

[hifinutt]

welcome stef , so if your wife is scared to use it it needs to be simple to use yes?

how about this ?

https://www.hifix.co.uk/quad-vena-ii-intergrated-amplifier?gclid=Cj0KCQiAifz-BRDjARIsAEElyGL7ppizraMoq9ynUX1n1Xa5rbKpjQdr5AetDu WBXDBku2d0SpLcPHcaAg3LEALw_wcB

[Stony]

Hi Phil.

She is scared of valves and will be fine with anything else.

Thank you for your suggestion.

It does not need to be a brand new. I was not clear about it.

[hifinutt]

Great , well plenty of brand new kit that's great value, you might even get a discount if you ask one of our dealers here !! On a vena

[hifi_dave]

Good shout and also the Rega Elex-r.

[Stony]

Thank you Dave. I will have a look. She on a special offer below £1000 :stalks:

I am listening to Nait XS 2 right now and that's the most unbalanced volume amplifier I have ever seen .
It's first day so difficult to say I like it or not how it plays but so unbalanced volume in this one :mental:
Naim really should sort out this balance at low volume. I have heard about it before but I did not expected to be so bad.

[Pigmy Pony]

Maybe not an obvious choice, but I'm really loving a Musical Fidelity A5 integrated I got recently. More welly than you could need, simple to use, and a decent phono stage. A used one would be way under your budget :)

[Stony]

Thank you Steve, that's a good suggestion. To be honest I forgot a little bit about MF gear and how good they are.

[hifi_dave]

Thank you Dave. I will have a look. She on a special offer below £1000 :stalks:

I am listening to Nait XS 2 right now and that's the most unbalanced volume amplifier I have ever seen .
It's first day so difficult to say I like it or not how it plays but so unbalanced volume in this one :mental:
Naim really should sort out this balance at low volume. I have heard about it before but I did not expected to be so bad.
They have done this for years. They will claim it improves sound quality but is just poor design IMO.

If there are any products I stock you are interested in, please contact me.

[Stony]

... Musical Fidelity A5 integrated I got recently. ....

Where did you got yours from ?
They are seem not easy to source. There is nothing around for sale.

[antonio]

I give a slightly cheaper option, a passive pre https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BTE-Designs-Passive-Preamp/224280436305?hash=item343827de51:g:vj8AAOSwjkhfmh9 X
and ICE power amp from China https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ICEPOWER-2x125W-HIFI-Amplifier-Board-ICE125ASX2-Dual-Channel-Digital-Amp-Module/274522688107?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=
or from Italy https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125-ASX2-AMPLIFIER-2-X-125W-RMS-4OHM-NUOVO-AMPLIFICATORE-ICEPOWER/174373730685

[Pigmy Pony]

Where did you got yours from ?
They are seem not easy to source. There is nothing around for sale.

Hi Stef, I bought mine from a fellow AoS member a couple of weeks ago, and I'm loving how it is working - doesn't sound like a tinny radio at low volumes, and is keeping its composure at high volumes. And is a handsome bugger imo, Mrs. P hasn't complained yet :)

When I first considered getting one a few years ago, there were quite a lot for sale. There will be a few about, maybe Christmas is just a quiet time for selling gear. I could also recommend their A3.2 integrated (my brother has had one for 15 years now, and it's going strong). Built like a tank, also has built-in phono, and can be had for about £400 or less.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

I give a slightly cheaper option, a passive pre https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BTE-Designs-Passive-Preamp/224280436305?hash=item343827de51:g:vj8AAOSwjkhfmh9 X
and ICE power amp from China https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ICEPOWER-2x125W-HIFI-Amplifier-Board-ICE125ASX2-Dual-Channel-Digital-Amp-Module/274522688107?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=
or from Italy https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125-ASX2-AMPLIFIER-2-X-125W-RMS-4OHM-NUOVO-AMPLIFICATORE-ICEPOWER/174373730685

Have a look at the specifications of what you are recommending first please http://sound-power.ru/files/doc/ICEpower125ASX2_datasheet.pdf as sensitivity suggests as being way off the mark with what source components actually deliver which is typically +/- 350mv see attached. You should find the Icepower amp has 3.3v sensitivity which will result in its output power being nearly 10x less than stated, which would be truly disappointing. :stalks:

Whereas sensible amplifier manufacturers always match the source output voltage to the amplifier sensitivity like Quad have been doing since 1967, in the process enabling passive preamps that carry the least change away from the source component to be used. The ideal recipe is source passive pre and sensitive power amp - it works so well. better still is removing contacts in attenuation and input switching.

[Lawrence001]

The ideal recipe is source passive pre and sensitive power amp - it works so well. better still is removing contacts in attenuation and input switching as well.

Is there any particular method of removing the contacts you would recommend [emoji23]

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

[Shovel_Knight]

what source components actually deliver which is typically +/- 350mv

Maybe this was true 50 years ago, these days most line level sources easily deliver 2V.

However, ICEpower amps are still not suitable for use with a passive pre since their input impedance is typically rather low, less than 10kOhm.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Maybe this was true 50 years ago, these days most line level sources easily deliver 2V.

However, ICEpower amps are still not suitable for use with a passive pre since their input impedance is typically rather low, less than 10kOhm.

However the media being played NEVER delivers such voltage, see attached in light blue we see the RMS voltage figure for Deep purples Smoke on the water, as usual as are all files and
streams the level is below +/- 350mv RMS. Given a player is otherwise silent without playing anything,

To see this yourself with any music you like, download Audacity, and allow it to read the CD disc, you can see the RMS level in light blue, the peak level in dark blue is much higher,

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Is there any particular method of removing the contacts you would recommend [emoji23]

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

There are two, either voltage controlled resistors using field effect transistors, refer to page 237 of Designing with Field Effect Transistors , Siliconix Second Edition , or
Light Dependent Resistors. each circuit can be arranged as a L pad to control volume without using the audio path as a contact.

As regards a switch, see page 193 of the same reference, and also Light Dependent Resistors, where the anode is switched off with the NSL32SR3 achieving over 20 mega ohms
of resistance.

[Shovel_Knight]

However the media being played NEVER delivers such voltage, see attached in light blue we see the RMS voltage figure for Deep purples Smoke on the water, as usual as are all files and
streams the level is below +/- 350mv RMS. Given a player is otherwise silent without playing anything,

To see this yourself with any music you like, download Audacity, and allow it to read the CD disc, you can see the RMS level in light blue, the peak level in dark blue is much higher,

Somehow I suspect you have no idea what you're talking about. It's obvious that peak power of an AC waveform is much higher than its average power, and you really want the average output level of your source to be lower than your amplifier's sensitivity - otherwise every musical peak will lead to severe, speaker-destroying clipping.

P. S. You should never use the term "RMS level" when it comes to music since it applies only to periodic signals such as sine waves etc.

[Shovel_Knight]

However the media being played NEVER delivers such voltage, see attached in light blue we see the RMS voltage figure for Deep purples Smoke on the water, as usual as are all files and
streams the level is below +/- 350mv RMS. Given a player is otherwise silent without playing anything,

To see this yourself with any music you like, download Audacity, and allow it to read the CD disc, you can see the RMS level in light blue, the peak level in dark blue is much higher,

Somehow I suspect you have no idea what you're talking about. It's obvious that peak power of an AC waveform is much higher than its average power, and you really want the average output level of your source to be lower than your amplifier's sensitivity - otherwise every musical peak will lead to severe, speaker-destroying clipping.

P. S. You should never use the term "RMS level" when it comes to music since it applies only to periodic signals such as sine waves etc. Also the idea that CDs and files will deliver a set voltage is preposterous, the correct way to say it is "-x dB relative to rated output".

[Light Dependant Resistor]

Somehow I suspect you have no idea what you're talking about. It's obvious that peak power of an AC waveform is much higher than its average power, and you really want the average output level of your source to be lower than your amplifier's sensitivity - otherwise every musical peak will lead to severe, speaker-destroying clipping.

P. S. You should never use the term "RMS level" when it comes to music since it applies only to periodic signals such as sine waves etc. Also the idea that CDs and files will deliver a set voltage is preposterous, the correct way to say it is "-x dB relative to rated output".

RMS happens to be used for sensitivity when stating input level to achieve full output with amplifiers. It therefore is good to similarly know the RMS level with music media we enjoy. When we match the two together
we can see any given amplifier as long as its sensitivity is higher than the media as you correctly state, is what is really wanted. For passives this figure ideally needs to be closer to each other.

In so saying it dissolves the nonsensical measurements that are all too common, that attribute to measure at 2v RMS or higher, that bear no resemblance at all to the RMS voltage measurement of the media we enjoy. It can be seen in the nonsensical measurements that they simply refuse to use music to measure equipment, and instead turn the RMS level up to make us think that is representing the peak levels in music, which it never will..... as the peak in music is not a sine wave, some may argue that a sine wave can always be divided into a music wave form peak, but in so dividing still fails to register as music, and asks firmly, why not just use music in the first place.

A good amplifier like the attached which is a Quad 405 states its RMS level 0.5v ( 500mv) for full output, and at the same time easily handles music waveforms.

[Shovel_Knight]

"They" use sine waves to measure output levels because engineering is a science, and rated parameters should be easily verified. With sine waves, you have a known ratio of peak to average (or in this case, RMS) values: Vpeak = Vrms x sqrt(2).

If you start using music material to measure output voltage and power, you quickly run into a problem: the crest factor differs wildly for different pieces of music. If we take, say, Shake It Off by Taylor Swift and String Quartet No. 8 by Shostakovich, we will arrive at very different average output levels even if the peak value is the same.

When it comes to the Quad you mention, if its sensitivity is 0.5V RMS to full power, this means it can take 0.7V peak without clipping. You need to attenuate its input by a factor of 4 to avoid clipping with modern DACs that will output 2.83V peak. Why would you throw away signal from the source to make up for it by higher gain further down the chain (which will inevitably lead to higher noise etc.)? It's no wonder many Quad owners modify them to reduce their input sensitivity to better suit modern sources that are much "hotter" than tape decks and FM tuners of yesteryear.

[Stony]

.... I'm loving how it is working - doesn't sound like a tinny radio at low volumes, and is keeping its composure at high volumes. And is a handsome bugger imo, Mrs. P hasn't complained yet :)


It sounds good. My Mrs listens to her gently music at low volume most of the time. She would be happy with that.
To be honest I was looking for something smaller like 30-50 Watt. Focal speakers are really efficient.
My valves amp gives no more than 20 Wats. That's enough.

Anyway I have been listening to Naim XS2 today and I was not really happy with this amp.
But in desperation I took out of my storage speaker cables IXOS 6004. What a difference ! Now she is talking ! But still I need to seat almost in front one of the speakers. So irritating.

Steve, what are other elements of your A5 setup ?

[Light Dependant Resistor]

"They" use sine waves to measure output levels because engineering is a science, and rated parameters should be easily verified. With sine waves, you have a known ratio of peak to average (or in this case, RMS) values: Vpeak = Vrms x sqrt(2).

If you start using music material to measure output voltage and power, you quickly run into a problem: the crest factor differs wildly for different pieces of music. If we take, say, Shake It Off by Taylor Swift and String Quartet No. 8 by Shostakovich, we will arrive at very different average output levels even if the peak value is the same.

When it comes to the Quad you mention, if its sensitivity is 0.5V RMS to full power, this means it can take 0.7V peak without clipping. You need to attenuate its input by a factor of 4 to avoid clipping with modern DACs that will output 2.83V peak. Why would you throw away signal from the source to make up for it by higher gain further down the chain (which will inevitably lead to higher noise etc.)? It's no wonder many Quad owners modify them to reduce their input sensitivity to better suit modern sources that are much "hotter" than tape decks and FM tuners of yesteryear.

Yes totally agree, keep the source signal as pure as possible during attenuation, toward the arranged adequately sensitive power amp.

[Light Dependant Resistor]

"They" use sine waves to measure output levels because engineering is a science, and rated parameters should be easily verified..

Listening though is not a science, using listening to verify a amplifier or any component for audio- takes lots of time, but the result is IMO, far better based on listening.

[Pigmy Pony]

It sounds good. My Mrs listens to her gently music at low volume most of the time. She would be happy with that.
To be honest I was looking for something smaller like 30-50 Watt. Focal speakers are really efficient.
My valves amp gives no more than 20 Wats. That's enough.

Anyway I have been listening to Naim XS2 today and I was not really happy with this amp.
But in desperation I took out of my storage speaker cables IXOS 6004. What a difference ! Now she is talking ! But still I need to seat almost in front one of the speakers. So irritating.

Steve, what are other elements of your A5 setup ?

Monarch turntable, Ortofon 2M Black, very sensitive Zu Omen Definition speakers. Although I'm recommending MF kit based on what I'm currently enjoying, some members (who know a lot more about this stuff than me, and whose advice I would trust) think Quad would serve you well. It's a shame these are bad times to get out and hear stuff. Bake-offs would be great for that, and I would highly recommend the next Kegworth show (when that eventually happens).

[Stony]

Thank you Steve.

I was thinking as well about one of Sugdens a21 amps as I never had one before.
They are saying that's the one you have to have before you die :lol:

Now I'am trying to figure out all differences between a21, a21ai, a 21aL, a21SE, a21 Signature, A21ai Series 2 - plenty of mess with it

[Pigmy Pony]

There are some Sugden fans here who no doubt will along shortly. Yorkshire firm with a reputation for great customer care I believe. A21 is highly regarded, but I thought it might be a bit outside your budget.

[antonio]

I did not realise that the input sensitivity was so low on these ICE amps, I have read on a forums of a member using a well known brand with a passive to good effect, I was going to buy one to use with a spare passive I have My apologies to the OP for any confusing and thanks to LDR for pointing out my error

[enrae8]

Hi Stef, I bought mine from a fellow AoS member a couple of weeks ago, and I'm loving how it is working - doesn't sound like a tinny radio at low volumes, and is keeping its composure at high volumes. And is a handsome bugger imo, Mrs. P hasn't complained yet :)

Nice to hear it’s working well for you - and keeping the other half happy too:)

[Pigmy Pony]

Nice to hear it’s working well for you - and keeping the other half happy too:)

Absolutely Neil, thank you. I'm already thinking about the upgrades that JS Audio can do - this amp is a keeper! Although the amp it is currently replacing (my Audion Silver Night 300b) was a lot more expensive and ought to be better, the MF has put FUN back into my listening, and maybe it is simply a better match for my Zu speakers, regardless of price :)

Sorry about the thread drift Stef, as you were :)