A Precious moment

[Sansiiro]

Since past weekend, I have completed a full circle on system-upgrades.
The whole system downstairs now has cost me 4000 euros,
although also considering the bedroom system, gear that I have replaced, unused cables,
many tweaks and headphones, the expenses in the last three years, after I started this hobbie,
reach up to 6600 euros.

Yes, at this current moment I feel, that it is probably a good place to stop.
While conceding that often after acquiring a component there has been a pinch of disappointment, it may well have stemmed from unrealistic expectations or unsufficient surrounds. It is true, that the sq at disposal now is superior to what it was while using the old amp and speakers given me by my father and given that I now have two systems and more knowledge, I don’t feel like I have spent TOO much during these three years, even if it is my half-years pay. I feel no regrets. Good sound is a beautiful thing.

If it might not be a full-stop for me, it certainly will be a long intermediate one.
My last acqusition was a pair of speakers, Bowers & Wilkins 603. What I have found true, is that rarely does one component trash the previous one completely, as its price might suggest. While many things might be better with the new acqusition, there also probably will be something in which you lose. It could also be measured only by your preference.
I use Ares II DAC, Pro-Ject preamp and XTZ EDGE A2-300 amplification with these and my assessment at the moment is definitely incomplete. For one thing, a period of burn-in is order, and that also for myself.
And then there is this constant suspicion that I should perhaps reorganize some furniture...

What I feel now, must be no surprise to anyone: these speakers are bright and forward, some (hissing) vocals can be sharp and tiring. In a way, these speakers attack me, and I feel I need more distance. Of course, this I expected and have no problem with. What I will have a problem with is too early to tell. What I definitely have no problem with, is the clearness, detail, glitter, vigor.

The time of the chase must be over now, I feel I have it quite well balanced out.
It truly is a precious moment. A moment to relax and listen to some music.

[Puffin]

It's good to go on a journey, but where hifi and sound is concerned do you ever arrive? I have visited some lovely places in the world and some not so nice. Others may have had the opposite opinion to me?

I have found that the room your kit is installed in has the biggest influence over sound quality. Moving the speakers around would be a good start to see if you can tame them. Acoustic treatments would probably be your best best. These do not have to be expensive.

What size is the room? (HxWxD) what is in the room and what is the construction of walls, ceiling and what floor material. Are you limited as to where you can place the equipment and speakers?

[walpurgis]

What I feel now, must be no surprise to anyone: these speakers are bright and forward, some (hissing) vocals can be sharp and tiring. In a way, these speakers attack me, and I feel I need more distance. Of course, this I expected and have no problem with. What I will have a problem with is too early to tell. What I definitely have no problem with, is the clearness, detail, glitter, vigor.

That's what you get with B&W speakers, they tend to be revealing. Some like this and some don't. I like hearing every bit of information in a recording, but I do want it presented in a benevolent manner.

[Sansiiro]

I think also some tweaking with the room might be good.
But it's quite a handfull. Take a look!

I have concrete floor with parquet, concrete walls and concrete ceiling.
I have added extra wooden wall though, before I even thought of audio.
It is brown on the pic. The speakers are yellow. Room has 61.5 m2 of size.

And I can say - if I execute a bright sharp shout in that room,
it definately lingers for a short moment.

I guess I could move speakers, but due to this rooms shape, there are not many
logical options.

I would like to hear suggestions, of course!


28958

[Sansiiro]

That's what you get with B&W speakers, they tend to be revealing. Some like this and some don't. I like hearing every bit of information in a recording, but I do want it presented in a benevolent manner.


That is true. Since I had few "easy-going" speakers already, I knowingly went for this "forwardness".
They are not to watch TV that much, I do that in another room.
To get more of that benevolent attitude on the side, might be too costly at the moment though :)

[hifinutt]

i am just awaiting some of the new b&w 607 s2 anniversary . i do love B&w i have never found any of them forward , had a good many pairs over the years ranging from the 800 to the 600 series

this new 607 comes in oak finish [ wrap]

https://www.bowerswilkins.com/en-gb/home-audio/600-series-anniversary/607

[Puffin]

I think also some tweaking with the room might be good.
But it's quite a handfull. Take a look!

I have concrete floor with parquet, concrete walls and concrete ceiling.
I have added extra wooden wall though, before I even thought of audio.
It is brown on the pic. The speakers are yellow. Room has 61.5 m2 of size.

And I can say - if I execute a bright sharp shout in that room,
it definately lingers for a short moment.

I guess I could move speakers, but due to this rooms shape, there are not many
logical options.

I would like to hear suggestions, of course!


28958

Have you tried the "clap" test? Go around the room clapping your hands and see how much echo your claps have. Do you have any rugs on the floors? Are there any wall units or other stuff to break up the sound in the room?

[Pigmy Pony]

If you're getting "flutter echoes" you need to get some soft stuff on the walls, floor, even ceiling - wall-hanging rugs, curtains, anything that will absorb the high frequencies and stop them bouncing around.

[Mikeandvan]

Have you tried the "clap" test? Go around the room clapping your hands and see how much echo your claps have. Do you have any rugs on the floors? Are there any wall units or other stuff to break up the sound in the room?

So if claps echo, is that good or bad?

[Puffin]

So if claps echo, is that good or bad?

Well that depends whether you want a "live" area where your system is sited, or less live by using sound absorbing stuff. The suggested way is to have a less live area where the speakers are, than where you sit to listen. That is the way I have mine, but others may prefer something different.

[Barry]

Well that depends whether you want a "live" area where your system is sited, or less live by using sound absorbing stuff. The suggested way is to have a less live area where the speakers are, than where you sit to listen. That is the way I have mine, but others may prefer something different.

I always thought it was recommended to situate the speakers at the 'live' end of the room, and the listener(s) at a relatively dead end. That's the way I have mine.

[Puffin]

I always thought it was recommended to situate the speakers at the 'live' end of the room, and the listener(s) at a relatively dead end. That's the way I have mine.

:eek:Oh God, you mean all the box swapping was for nothing:lol:

Well, I suppose it may depend not only on the room, but on your taste. It works for me.

https://www.russandrews.com/understanding-your-room-6-reflections-and-flutter-echoes/

"In your listening seat you hear sound from two sources. You hear the direct sound from the speakers first, followed by the reflected sound from the floor, ceiling and walls. The strength of the reflections and the time delay after the direct sound govern the 'spaciousness' of the room sound. This room sound overlays the recorded acoustic and so must be very carefully controlled. It is all too easy to overdamp a room and produce a closed-in claustrophobic sound.

You can avoid this pitfall by being very selective about the placement of absorbers and by creating a relatively 'dead' end where the speakers stand and a relatively 'live' end where you sit; though strong reflections from the walls near your seat are very distracting and uncomfortable. If the speaker end is 'live', and you sit in the 'dead' end, the sound is too distant and echoing. If the speaker end is 'dead' you hear a more forward direct sound with the room acoustic added - a much more natural and satisfying sound. Of course, this only applies to a two-channel system."

[Macca]

Speakers at live end and listen at the dead end usually works although it is going to vary depending on taste, room and the directivity of the speakers. No one size is going to fit all.

[Mikeandvan]

How do I know which is the live end? (why do I get the feeling this is all pointless).

[Light Dependant Resistor]

With any given room you need to reduce the potential for sound directly reflecting off other surfaces. Sound reflection then is changing
the ability of your loudspeakers design, and the audio it can reproduce. As far as i know the reference to the live end is where such reflections may occur, whereas the
dead end is the opposite, possibly going too far to where sound cannot radiate properly.

If we look at the design of a dome midrange and dome tweeter we can see, great effort so sound gets dispersed evenly even at extreme angles, similarly having
minimal reflections in your room assists sound to be dispersed properly. I hope that helps

[Macca]

How do I know which is the live end? (why do I get the feeling this is all pointless).

The end with the loudspeakers should be live so no clutter, no furniture etc and the end where you sit to listen should be heavily damped.

That's just one school of thought on the matter though. Some say you should heavily damp the whole room including ceiling. Others say just keep it a natural balance.

[Sansiiro]

Just today I had the pleasure of laying down this thick rug. It should help.
Also on another picture, I have made this wooden panel, I would set it up
behind me. It took me many days, but the WAF is very low at the moment.

As for speakers, I like them a lot. Still to early to try and say something negative about them.
They definitely are a big step forward from Heco Victa 702 floorstanders, which I had before,
and actually sold to compatriot just today. So a very busy day!

28973

28974


The reason I keep the grills on is that my dog practices a sport, where he throws his chewing bone around.
It is a very big conflict of our precious hobbies :).

28975

[Macca]

Looks like you have the speakers toed in a bit, try them aimed straight ahead instead of at you, will make them sound less bright and forward.

[hifinutt]

Looks like you have the speakers toed in a bit, try them aimed straight ahead instead of at you, will make them sound less bright and forward.

great advice

[hifinutt]

some nice B&w arrived today , 607s2 anniversary . not quite as big as the 603 !! certainly not forward and BIG sounding . look lovely i think in oak vinyl wrap

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50691230731_e741e6a251_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2kepNQK)P1070344 (https://flic.kr/p/2kepNQK) by [/url], on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50690484178_0474922302_z.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158267783@N02/)P1070345 (https://flic.kr/p/2kekYV9) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/158267783@N02/], on Flickr

[Sansiiro]

great advice

Yes it was.

[hifinutt]

What I feel now, must be no surprise to anyone: these speakers are bright and forward, some (hissing) vocals can be sharp and tiring. In a way, these speakers attack me, and I feel I need more distance. Of course, this I expected and have no problem with. What I will have a problem with is too early to tell. What I definitely have no problem with, is the clearness, detail, glitter, vigor.


not sure about your 603 but using an arcam power amp here with bel canto pre 3 and

got a pair of B&W 607 s2 anniversary playing here now . tiny litlle things . they are very impressive for 445 quid, playing female vocals very well . not a hint , not even a peep of forwardness . just very balanced sound and very captivating . very musical and engaging

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50691230731_e741e6a251_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2kepNQK)P1070344 (https://flic.kr/p/2kepNQK) by [/url], on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50691313087_9d98eabbea_z.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158267783@N02/)P1070341 (https://flic.kr/p/2keqejF) by , on Flickr

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50690484178_0474922302_z.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/158267783@N02/)P1070345 (https://flic.kr/p/2kekYV9) by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/158267783@N02/], on Flickr

[Sansiiro]

I truly had a problem. Listening my system around 70 db-s my hearing was compromised after about 30 minutes. So that it became pointless to evaluate anything. Then I needed rest. (I have also been taking special ear-medicine for three months now. A pill called "Tone". That was triggered in the summer, when I had two occasions when my ears really let me down. No relapse, luckily.)

And also I noticed a few things in the sound I did not like.

I thought of reorganizing the room to get some more air between myself and the speakers, but I did not get to that because beforehand I treated the wall behind me. It seemed to have a great effect. Now I can listen a long time with no problems. I also started listening laying on the couch, so directly behind my head is not the wall, but the soft couch. Great success! No damage to hearing and better sound. I suspect there were too many reflections. I plan to treat the room even more now.

[hifinutt]

wow , never knew there were pills called that !!
Ii think we have some in UK

https://www.hollandandbarrett.com/shop/product/new-nordic-ear-tone-tablets-60009071?skuid=009071&utm_campaign=shopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&&gclid=Cj0KCQiA_qD_BRDiARIsANjZ2LCG-Le_bMuGDamyhme25genamQb-bCZra9M7RFTGqft_B-L3m9DYAQaAiuDEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

[Lawrence001]

I'm wondering if the wooden wall behind the speakers is absorbing some bass and tipping the balance towards brightness. Could you swap the sofa and the TV/stereo round and see if they sound more balanced that way?

The other options are the try the speakers along the other 2 sides of the virtual square formed by your listening area. The free space side in particular would be interesting to try placing them, but you'll have the issue of one side being open and the other enclosed. This is often a problem for those that don't have symmetrical rooms but it's usually fine.

It's worth investing a day of your time to try these different locations before either changing your system again, or putting up with months or years of a bright tiring sound.

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

[Lawrence001]

wow , never knew there were pills called that !!
Ii think we have some in UK

https://www.hollandandbarrett.com/shop/product/new-nordic-ear-tone-tablets-60009071?skuid=009071&utm_campaign=shopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&&gclid=Cj0KCQiA_qD_BRDiARIsANjZ2LCG-Le_bMuGDamyhme25genamQb-bCZra9M7RFTGqft_B-L3m9DYAQaAiuDEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.dsI think I want to try them but the link doesn't work. What's the name I'll do a search myself?

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

[Sansiiro]

I think I want to try them but the link doesn't work. What's the name I'll do a search myself?

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk




29069

[Sansiiro]

I'm wondering if the wooden wall behind the speakers is absorbing some bass and tipping the balance towards brightness. Could you swap the sofa and the TV/stereo round and see if they sound more balanced that way?

The other options are the try the speakers along the other 2 sides of the virtual square formed by your listening area. The free space side in particular would be interesting to try placing them, but you'll have the issue of one side being open and the other enclosed. This is often a problem for those that don't have symmetrical rooms but it's usually fine.

It's worth investing a day of your time to try these different locations before either changing your system again, or putting up with months or years of a bright tiring sound.

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

Thanks. I will definately try some changes I believe at the coming weekend. I will rotate the speakers in front of window (left) first, that way I defeat the opposing wall (currently) and also have more distance before and after myself.

[Macca]

I think your pre-amp might be the weak spot.

[Sansiiro]

Hello!

Here is insight to the serious case of audiophilia, or atleast into what I call that way.
The original post is almost 2 years old, and was about to mark a place to stop spending on new gear.

Well, since that time I have bought (in that order):

1) new preamp
2) most new interconnects
3) second poweramp
4) new speaker cables
5) some new power-cables
6) new streamer
7) Isoacoustic Gaia speaker-feet
8) subwoofer

I also moved the whole system to a new location.
At the time of original post the cost was around 4000 euro, now is 6500.
The total is higher but I don't count the stuff that I have replaced.
I do not regret it at all. In fact I think it has been good to me, it is my main hobby.

Now it is a new precious moment :)

[Barry]

Well that depends whether you want a "live" area where your system is sited, or less live by using sound absorbing stuff. The suggested way is to have a less live area where the speakers are, than where you sit to listen. That is the way I have mine, but others may prefer something different.

I thought the recommended siuation was to have the speakers at the 'live' end of the room and the listening position at the less live, more damped end.

That is the arrangement with most concert halls.