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Hi, I’m based in London, have been intermittently into audio diy since early secondary school and I am preparing for another upgrade round as my music taste has moved towards classical, so higher requirements for the system.
Current main system:
Musiland MD10 Dac
Hyped UCD400HG based diy amp
Von Schweikert VR-1 speakers
Cables mix of diy and Nordost
Second system:
Raspberry4-based streamer
Eve-Audio SC203 active speakers
Upgrade path will be:
1. All sources
2. Decide on main speakers
3. Build class a amps
Greetings Max.
You are making me think here. Does a liking for Classical music require a different sort of loudspeaker?
The great expert on that topic is Mr. Lynn Olson:
http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/
His notion is that Classical music is spectrally dense. Hence requires steep crossovers and drivers that avoid breakup.
Possibly the Harbeth or Spendor approach. Which is derived from the BBC monitor idea. Hope it helps.
walpurgis
12-11-2020, 07:28
Hello Max. Welcome to AOS.
Join in the chat and get to know the members, there's a lot going on here.
Enjoy the forum,
Geoff.
Greetings Max.
You are making me think here. Does a liking for Classical music require a different sort of loudspeaker?
The great expert on that topic is Mr. Lynn Olson:
http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/
His notion is that Classical music is spectrally dense. Hence requires steep crossovers and drivers that avoid breakup.
Possibly the Harbeth or Spendor approach. Which is derived from the BBC monitor idea. Hope it helps.
Not sure yet about speakers, I was focussing on the sources first, but complex classical with its massed strings and the importance of transients, holographic presentation etc requires a lot from every part of the chain.
My thoughts so far on speakers for complex acoustic music:
-three way speakers can resolve more details than two way speakers which is what I currently have, all else being equal.
-AMT or RAAL type highs appear very capable for this type of music. It certainly works in my small eve audios.
I generally stay away from speakers that are poor off-axis, are difficult to place or only perform decent enough at raised volumes. The listening space for my main system is ~14x12’, although it is part of an L-shaped room twice that long. So the max speaker size is small floorstanders, all else is overkill. Speakers have to be placed close to the wall.
Two designs that look interesting to me on paper are:
-Philharmonic Audio’s BMR Monitors, e.g. https://salksound.com/model.php?model=BMR+Monitors
-Selah Audio’s Ceramicas http://www.selahaudio.com/ceramica-kit
I obviously haven’t heard either, I hope to visit a couple of audio events to listen to all sorts of gear once circumstances permit.
Those are two excellent companies that I follow.
No expense spared on scanspeak drivers and ribbons. :)
Very nice indeed. I have heard some wallmounted MTM 6" scan plus ribbons with a bass subwoofer, and it's as good as it gets. LR4 electronic filters. Doubling up the mids makes for that lovely PA sound.
A lot of dream speakers at Troels Gravesen's site too:
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Loudspeaker_Projects.htm
Some of his 3 ways look excellent.
Hello Max, welcome to the forum.
I can recommend Wharfedale Evo 4.4s. I run a pair in a slightly smaller room than yours. They are 3 way with AMT tweeter and 2” domed midrange and have superb drive unit integration. They are wonderful with classical, very refined yet expressive and in my room go down to 34hz in the bass.
Great value for money speaker that work well with all genres in my experience.
Greetings Max.
Does a liking for Classical music require a different sort of loudspeaker?
The great expert on that topic is Mr. Lynn Olson:
http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/
His notion is that Classical music is spectrally dense. Hence requires steep crossovers and drivers that avoid breakup.
Possibly the Harbeth or Spendor approach. Which is derived from the BBC monitor idea. Hope it helps.
The Quad 57 electrostatic is often considered to be very good for Classical music. The crossover network consists purely of resistors which combine with the inherent capacitance of the 'drivers', so are single order, that is 6dB/octave.
That said speakers designed by and for the BBC major on the faithful replay of speech as well as music. The later BBC designs were made to allow monitoring at high SPLs, so are possibly better at reproducing the full dynamic range of orchestral music than can the Quad 57s.
Welcome to AoS Max,
Enjoy the Forum
Barry
I've heard those Quads. Beautiful sound. Piano was exquisite.
This is unusual and interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja9BJn0lMxI
Alan Shaw probably builds the best mid basses in the world. Plastic.
Uses his daughter's voice as a reference for accuracy.
Thanks all for the warm welcome.
-Troels Gravensen... there is a bit of a barrier to entry with his designs: the woodwork tends to be complex and the crossovers are pricy. I’m reluctant to go along without having heard such a design, as the built cost is comparable to good used speakers, or even new ones, and resale values of diy products rarely meet costs.
-I will aim to demo some wharfedales but I’m surprised that this speaker works for you in such a modestly sized room.
-Electrostats - I have thought of those but never heard them. Must audition. The size of most models puts me off though. Do electrostats wear/decay over time? I mean, those quads are not exactly new...
-the best mid-woofers in the world... I thought Purifi currently holds this claim to fame. Must audition those, as well as the harbeth P3.
I am quite well connected in the loudspeaker World.
Have hung around with Troels Gravesen, Lynn Olson, Joachim Gerhard and a few others. Can't say I always agree with everything they do or say, but it's ongoing.
Am sufficiently well versed in Physics and Mathematics to know what a Linkwitz-Riley LR4 and a Butterworth BW3 is.
Time alignment, impulse response, distortion and dispersion hold few mysteries for me. It's how it works.
My best recommendation is to hang round with people who are trying to put something back, along with making a living.
One of my favourite good people is someone you may not know:
https://ampslab.com/blog/why-build-speakers/
Michael Chua is an absolute gentleman. He has sent me details of his designs by email. And they are top class. We have talked about things. He gives it away for nothing. As do I.
Thanks, I will check Michael Chua out. Had another look at Troels website, he does actually have a good number of sub-2k kits. I must have looked only at his bigger models when making the mental note that he is expensive. I can’t focus on the speaker yet though, have to clear my plate here first...
Your Von Schweikert Audio VR-1 look very competent in the 6.5" plus 1" category.
Woofer: 6.5-inch resin impregnated mica/cellulose composite cone, cast frame, high temperature voice coil, and large shielded magnet. VSA Low Distortion Motor system.
Tweeter: 1-inch composite silk dome VSA tweeter with resin impregnation, large shielded magnet and high-temp voice coil. VSA Low Distortion Motor system.
Mike Chua has fiddled around with this concept:
https://ampslab.com/starling.htm
I think he has updated it recently to tidy up the 5kHz resonance that you tend to get on the bass.
It would be interesting to see if a bit of crossover work might help your existing speakers. A thorough inspection.
I always enjoy doing stuff with older speakers.
It's the hobby.
I’m not unhappy with the VR-1s, but a decent three way should have a better midrange. Since I haven’t sorted out the transports yet I can’t be sure but I suspect that the AMT tweeters of my eve audios are more resolving/have more air than my VE-1s, which is another reason why I am considering new speakers.
Re modding the VR-1s, I’m sure something can be done, but I don’t want to go down that path as I want to move beyond a small 2-way.
Those AudioTechnology-3WC by Troels look the part... if v pricy.
6" bass plus tweeter is my most hated project in the World.
And I have had a go at it. Terrible time-alignment problems.
Thin vocals. Disappointing bass. Top end is the same with any speaker.
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/AT-3WC.htm
Looks alright. Vented polepieces get my approval. Horrible crossover to build.
Troels is on a bit of a thing with time-aligned designs. But it's all about the midrange IMO.
I always liked the 3 way Wharfedale E70. Double up the mids and wire them in series and you are on a roll with vocals.
And it's all about the vocals. Bass and treble just add a bit of boom and tizz.
Thanks all for the warm welcome.
Electrostats - I have thought of those but never heard them. Must audition. The size of most models puts me off though.
Do electrostats wear/decay over time? I mean, those quads are not exactly new...
Virtually all electrostatic speakers have a dipole polar pattern, which means almost as much sound radiates from the rear as it does from the front. Thus dipole speakers need to positioned about 2m from a rear wall. That, coupled with the large radiating surface area, means they are not especially room friendly.
Quad 57 electrostatic speakers are remarkably reliable. The power supply will use components that can be 50 or 60 years old, which means that the polarising voltage level can fall with time, reducing sensitivity. Other problems can occur if the protective covering plastic splits (either through rough handling or continual exposure to sunlight), allowing dust to accumulate on the stators which will affect performance. Otherwise they 'wear' very well - I've had mine for over 45 years without problems.
Thanks Barry, that’s good to know. I will thus have to rule out electrostats and open baffle speakers because I simply don’t have the space and flexibility. My speakers have to live around one foot off the front wall which is not ideal for any speaker. My VR-1s are designed for near wall placement, and the model by Troels mentioned above also seems to work near walls, but I suspect that only few speakers are worth their cost when placed like this.
orchardaudio
30-11-2020, 18:07
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