View Full Version : "Slightly Grubbily" Cheap Cartridge
Rather than ruin Shane's "Dirt Cheap Cartridge" thread, what recommendations would the assembled learned gentlemen make for a "slightly grubbily" cheap cartridge? I'm thinking say £60 - £100? I'm drawn to (and have read good things) about the Ortofon 2m Red at £80 (love the design of the 2M series...)
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31iYLnttTuL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
The Nagaoka at this price point is the MP110, at £75
http://www.musonic.co.uk/bmz_cache/a/a38d362b9594837bdeb2e732953fe362.image.150x150.jpg
...but what others? Grado never get mentioned much over here, but the new Black & Green Prestiges seem to get good reviews over in their home country? I would like to spend more, but yet again an unexpected bill has landed, so prudence is the watchword!
What are you replacing, Alex?
I fancy the Nag myself. Over the past 20 years I've had LinnK9, Arcam E77, Nagoaka MP30, Goldring Eroica (MC) and currently Ortofon 540 mkII - the Nag was the best of the lot by a margin, if that's any help.:)
I'm not sure yet! I'm picking up a 1985 Rega Planar 3 with R200 arm tomorrow night, it has an unknown cartridge, but the stylus is shot, so I will probably just replace the whole thing. I will possibly put my AT95e on the Rega, and then put whatever I buy onto the Garrard 401/SME 3009 until I can get something better, then move it on to the Rega then (I was originally going to rob the arm off the Rega for the Garrard, but don't think I have the heart to do it now, as back when it was made I was 16 and used to dribble on the window of Martins Hifi in Norwich, dreaming one day of owning a Rega...)
(Short answer - replacing an AT-95e) :)
Ah yes saw yourt thread about buying the Rega3 - It was a 'one day you will be mine' deck for me too. Bet you can't wait:)
Not wanting to wipe any snot and dribble off the dealer's window, but, surely a 1985 Rega 3 would have an RB 300 on it, wouldn't it??
Marco and I have had tons of fun regarding cartridges and although I wasn't too keen on the old MP11 (too toppy for 80's systems and highly compliant), I suspect and hope that improvements were made in the interim. You're going to have to trust him though as I don't think anyone stocks them. Today, vinyl based systems are far more neutral so the Nags won't sound toppy methinks..
Ortofon should know how to design a damned good cartridge (they do) but these days, they know how to price the bloody things as well, with loads of middle men taking their cut too. The 2M-Red should be a fine pickup if you can get one at a good price, but better as the higher models may be, all but doubling the price with each stylus upgrade is blatant rip-off to me... (apologies, but I know that better diamonds are next to nothing extra in the quantities Ortofon get through...)
SOME Grado's are delightful, thre cheapest one has the most life, but this is resonance based and as the range goes up into better tips and generators, the sound gets blander and blanderzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Some of the wooden bodied reference ones of old were lovely though, but I don't know the new ones.
Denon DL110 - safe as houses, consistent performance, Sowter make a low gain transformer especially for pickups like this one and it's still around a ton I think.
I'll suggest it again - either the Stanton 680EE/681EEE mk3 or the Pickering XV15/625 depending on which is cheapest. The 625 and 680EE are very similar I believe, differing only in stylus housings as far as I can see. Marco mentioned the availability of fancy styli for these and I'd rather get one for mine rather than yet another Shure V15 pattern stylus.....
Alex, any Rega with R200 will be pre October 1983..
As you all hopefully know now, the R200 is very capable indeed and the AT95e will be more than fine.
For your SME - If the headshell is removable, get a Sumiko one which will open up your cartridge options. heavier counterweights are available for "Improved" 3009's as well as the older 3009 I understand.
Depending on the SME, the Pickering/Stantons are a dead cert as they've been tried and tested over the decades. The Nagaoka's should also be a fine match as will the AT120e not mentioned above. To be honest, I'd see how much SoundHiFi will do you an AT440MLa for. if it's affordable, it'll LOVE an SME like its ancestor (AT20SLa) did.....
Not wanting to wipe any snot and dribble off the dealer's window, but, surely a 1985 Rega 3 would have an RB 300 on it, wouldn't it??
I dunno, couldn't see past the green smears! :) To be honest, when I was 16, all I cared about was the glass platter - wow! You're right, though, the RB300 was '83, so maybe the one I bought is a bit older than '85? Iwas specifically after an R200 though, so wasn't initially bothered about the turntable. I'll see how it pans out - if it really is in "beautiful condition" it would be a shame to butcher it for it's arm (if they are the same vintage.) You can never have too much hifi, can you? (Not asking the wife that question though! :lol:)
At the moment I'm thinking it will go into guest bedroom #2 with an 80s amp andspeakers, and carefully selected vinyl set out for whoever is visiting - that would be a nice touch. 2nd system (guest bedroom #1) is turning into my 70s system - Garrard 401 into 1977 Sony TA-F4A Amp, currently looking for 70's "chest wig" speakers! (Would love a pair of NS1000Ms) And then a 70's tuner. Anyway, I digress. Back to the topic. :)
Dave - you're a diamond as usual - thanks for taking the time to post. I'll explore those a bit further. Might wait another few weeks and see if I can stretch to a bit more.
Alex, please remember my recommendations for souping up the Rega. I hope the main bearing oil hasn't solidified to the extent that there is a nasty dimple on the spindle bottom (a running mark is fine, but not a crater ;) )
What SME do you have on the 401 Alex? Please can you post a piccie as you did before and the others and I can make better recommendations.
As for NS1000's, they're rather coloured you know, despite setting monitor-grade standards in the mid 70's. I never liked the upper mid sound, no matter what I did with the controls (mid at 10 o'clock, tweet at 11 0'clock) and they need huge power to open the bass up properly. get some Ditton 44's or 66's or KEF Concerto's instead and be pleasantly surprised....... :lolsign:
Yep, your "service guide" will be implemented when I get the Rega, hopefully over the weekend.
The NS1000Ms was a joke really for Mike (he of the baboon-arsed red versions) - I should have said medallion-wearing-hairy-chested, shouldn't I? :eyebrows: What I should also have said is that I want to pay 1977 prices, so 66s are out of the question (£750 B.I.N.!) maybe 44s, but we shall see (narrowly missed out on a pair of Concertos last week.) No rush, all just a bit of fun really.
The SME arm is a 3009 II Improved, detachable head-shell. I thought it was bust, ('cos you can move it on it's bearing) but appears all that is wrong with it is it is owned by a numpty... :rolleyes:
The S2 shell (either with SME's black gunk or a piece of green card-table baize which works well for pennies) will take the Stantons, Pickerings and Nagaoka's, although the Sumiko shell may stand you in good stead for the future ;)
The SME internal wiring can be fairly easily replaced I gather and SME themselves have a comprehensive list of parts on their website. If you want to have a go yourself, the Terminator arm chap on ebay sells some fine wire which would be a great alternative (the cardas stuff is a bit thick I understand) and I have some ready myself.
As you know, the vertical bearings are knife edge types and as long as the Nylon isn't damaged, they should be fine. An F200 damper with baby-oil or similar is great for stabilising them (the standard SME fluid is too heavy, even with the reducing fluid IMO). The horizontal bearings can be adjusted but not as finely as the "un-improved" arm I found for some reason. The weight of the arm-tube, counterweights etc should load the horizontal races anyway and prevent them "chattering."
flapland
22-07-2010, 17:39
Hi ALEX_UK
If you can stretch a little a AT440MLa is a very good cartridge. I believe SoundHifi can do them for £125 or you can get one from the US for similar $ plus carridge. I picked mine up new three ago off UK fleabay so you might have luck there as well. Due to its Microline stylus its made some very crackly lp's bearable. Its never going to turn them into CD level silence but they are also not CD :eyebrows:
Flapland
flapland
22-07-2010, 17:40
Alex
Forgot to say the 2M Red is very good but the AT440Mla is much better.
Flapland
Hi Alex,
I would concur with Dave's sound cartidge advice. One thing though to remember is that all the options given have very different sonic signatures!
Therefore, the question I'd ask is what type of sound do you like from a cartridge and how is your system balanced, sonically... Towards the bright or warm side of neutral?
Once I know this I can then recommend which option I think is best, given how it will likely behave on the R200, either on the P3 or your Garrard :)
Marco.
Thanks Marco. Slightly tricky, as not sure where it will end up, and with what components, but let's assume it will go into my main setup - this is very neutral, if anything a tad brighter than Neutral, but I don't mind a little warmer with vinyl, certainly nothing too bright, as my ears are getting sensitive to "shrieks" and harsh & fizzy cymbals these days.
In that case, I'd be more inclined towards the Nagaoka, as it's very clean and detailed but without any excess emphasis at the top end, which both the Ortofon Red and Blue suffer from (the Black doesn't, though, but that's much more expensive).
Most AT cartridges are also similar in that respect, i.e. they sound very detailed but also somewhat 'brightly lit'. This likely wouldn't be a problem on the Garrard, but on the Rega or Pro-Ject, it might. However, the Stanton/Pickering and Grado options, though, would be fine :)
The best currently available Pickering is the XV15 625E, shown here for £99.90: http://www.pickeringuk.com/hifi.html
More info here: http://www.pickeringuk.com/625E.html
Personally, I'd have one of those before I would any of the Ortofons, ATs or Grados.
However, I can't stress enough just how good the current range of Nagaokas are... They really are stunners, and short of a Pickering XLZ-4500-S (or 7500-S), with one of the new line contact styli, they're liable to outperform anything else that's been recommended, especially if you go for an MP150 upwards! I reckon, though, that only an MP-300 or 500 would topple one of the 'hi-end' Pickerings.
Incidentally, I note that the 100 and 110 are back in stock: http://www.musonic.co.uk/cartridges-nagaoka-c-4_22.html, which is good news for those interested in the budget models.
Marco.
A shame that proper technical and audible tests are no longer done on "popular priced" cartridges these days, as many people are getting back into LP reproduction but don't have thousands to spend on it..
I haven't had the chance to listen to the latest Rega offerings, although the Bias, Super Bias and Elys mk1 (I have a mint Elys1) sounded a bit bass-heavy. This was measurable too, but the upper-mid to treble was flat...
The Pickering XV15/625 is a safe-as-houses kind of cartridge for all sorts of turntable and the more refined 681EEE mk3 makes £100 Grado's sound sludgy and dull IMO.
I'm afraid I have absolutely no knowledge of the current Nagaoka's at all and referring to my first paragraph means that they'll stay relatively unkown I reckon :( I can't totally agree on Marco's choice of SPU (:ner:) but his recommendations of the MM's he's mentioned entirely concur with my experiences and tbh Alex, I reckon the Nagaoka's might just be the perfect choice for the R200 if they're basically neutral (not too different in *balance* from a well mastered CD of the same album) and have traditionally tracked well as I remember. I really ought to get the MP15 I have out and give it a spin.
Alex, I have an idea - PM sent...
Thanks Marco, I think you've convinced me to go with the Nagaoka, will just hold back and make sure all goes ok picking up the Rega deck later this evening. Sumiko Headshell too I think which will be fine for either arm. Cheers again everyone.
Dave,
I can't totally agree on Marco's choice of SPU () but his recommendations of the MM's he's mentioned entirely concur with my experiences...
That's because I know what I'm talking about in this area, muchacho!
Try a modern SPU and you'll discover the same thing as you did with my MM reccos! :ner:
Btw, I'll have the Decca Barry's sending me on Tuedsay, so I'm looking forward to seeing how it shapes up compared to my lurvely "plump 'n' syrupy" ol' nail! :eyebrows:
Marco.
Thanks Marco, I think you've convinced me to go with the Nagaoka, will just hold back and make sure all goes ok picking up the Rega deck later this evening. Sumiko Headshell too I think which will be fine for either arm.
A very wise choice indeed, sir! Let us know how you get on :cool:
Marco.
I really ought to get the MP15 I have out and give it a spin.
Alex, I have an idea - PM sent...
Well, what Dave really meant yesterday was "I really ought to put the MP15 in the post and lend it to Alex" - which is exactly what he did, and Postman Pat duly delivered it first thing this morning, though I didn't get a chance to install and set it up until this evening, and only now spinning some tunes. I've also taken the opportunity to do a (temporary) deal with Mrs Alex, so the Garrard is now installed in the main living room in my main system. Only temporarily, while I setup & test the Nagaoka, but of course "possession is nine-tenths of the law" and now it is in the main system I hope she can learn to live with the "bloody horrible" looks because I'm not sure it is going anywhere in a hurry now I finally have sneaked it in...
It's late, and both my girls are in bed, so can't go too loud, and really it would be silly to make any sweeping statements after playing 4 tracks, but let's just say this could be "interesting" :)
Well, to start with, amazingly clear, and separation like I've never experienced from this seat. But, the sound on further listening is a little closed in, with limited width to the soundstage (though deeper 3d than anything I've ever heard in my system.) Also, much reduced surface noise compared to the loveable but ultimately much lower-class AT95E. Not sure about the bass either, lots of information but not as deep as I'd like, but then I am playing it too quietly really.
Using Madonna's first album (which I know intimately, so a great reference) and comparing to CD, bass not as bad as I had thought, but definitely the sound is more closed in. I'd set VTF to 1.7 which I think is what Dave suggested, and seems to be about right in the middle of the recommended looking on the web. Tried a little heavier - 1.8 - not much difference, but not really expecting 0.1g to work miracles. OK, let's trying backing off a bit - 1.5g... Yep, that's much better, opened up the soundstage and improved the bass a little. Still hard to tell at respectable volumes, but will leave it there for now. Certainly, the best I've ever had from vinyl in respect of background noise and clicks and pops which are virtually non-existent - couple of times I've had to check I haven't left it on CD by accident!
Looking forward to cranking it up a bit tomorrow, but so far looking very promising. :)
Sounds interesting, Alex! Keep us posted :)
Marco.
The tracking weight I suggested was what 'Choice suggested, but highly compliant cartridges will be more sensitive to this because of the varying VTA changes with mechanical loading on the cantilever suspension, if you see where I am...
Well I have played a few more LPs this afternoon, and I am still very much struck by the lack of surface noise, crackles, pops etc. But, was still not sure about the bass - definitely felt that the bottom end is lacking. Played some CDs whilst we had dinner and nattered as the sun went down (perfect end to a weekend over a nice Bordeaux ;)) and was sure the bass was stronger. Now back on the vinyl, and I think maybe the issue is that I am actually getting bass as a series of different notes, instead of a load of low-end "muddle"? The Japan album currently coming to an end doesn't feel bass light at all, I think I just need to adjust to this new found detail and separation? :scratch: I should be able to turn it up a bit tomorrow, which will help, but things are still sounding very good.
(The newly acquired Planar might get a look in tomorrow too. Though Mrs Alex said this evening after looking at the Garrard "maybe we should redecorate in a retro style, it would look really good" - so maybe she already knows I am going to fight to keep it in situ!)
(The newly acquired Planar might get a look in tomorrow too. Though Mrs Alex said this evening after looking at the Garrard "maybe we should redecorate in a retro style, it would look really good" - so maybe she already knows I am going to fight to keep it in situ!)
Wise woman! ;) The décor of my listening room is '70s to match the '60s and '70s equipment I use. I believe the system sounds better with this synergy! :lol:
Regards
Well I have played a few more LPs this afternoon, and I am still very much struck by the lack of surface noise, crackles, pops etc. But, was still not sure about the bass - definitely felt that the bottom end is lacking. Played some CDs whilst we had dinner and nattered as the sun went down (perfect end to a weekend over a nice Bordeaux ;)) and was sure the bass was stronger. Now back on the vinyl, and I think maybe the issue is that I am actually getting bass as a series of different notes, instead of a load of low-end "muddle"? The Japan album currently coming to an end doesn't feel bass light at all, I think I just need to adjust to this new found detail and separation? :scratch: I should be able to turn it up a bit tomorrow, which will help, but things are still sounding very good.
Alex just a thought but I always think that if it sounds bass-light to begin with it always will and will always bug you. Play something you know has real deep bass, ideally somethign with 5 string bass guitar and then re-evaluate - will soon show up if it can't do that 5th string - just a suggestion maybe you already did this:)
Regards
The Japan album currently coming to an end doesn't feel bass light at all,
What's the Japan album,Alex?
What's the Japan album,Alex?
Tin Drum :)
"Just when I think I'm winning, when I've broken every door,
The ghosts of my life blow wilder than before..."
OK, well I am officially a tw@t... (I think my new title should be "Chilled-Out Wino & Vinyl Numpty" please Marco when you read this :))
So, been not sure all the time about the bass in particular, but it was definitely fine last night with the Japan LP. Able to turn it up a bit today, when I got close up to the right speaker, WAY down on volume, and was sometimes making a really weird noise, and also I'm getting a nasty "thwack" through the speakers if I touch the headshell, or when placing the arm on it's rest. Hmmm... put the AT95e back on, and everything is fine, (albeit it has shown me what a massive step up the Nagaoka is, when working properly as the AT is tinny and a bit nasal in comparison...)
Then the penny drops - in my haste to install the cartridge on Saturday afternoon I hadn't finished the job... I noticed the tags where quite loose on the Nagaoka compared to the AT - very loose, in fact, like they could easily slip on and off... I remember coming down stairs to get my needle-nose pliers... and, ummmm :doh:
OK, so let's just say that after the first bar of Love Resurrection from Alf by Alison Moyet I've found where my bass and right channel had gone, and thankfully no nasty thumps when I touch the arm... "Rodney you plonker" springs to mind... Still, I think it is all sorted now, and I can start listening consistently and stop fretting! :)
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