Is It Time For A Pre Amp? [Archive] - The Art of Sound Forum

Moko

22-07-2010, 09:47

At the moment I am using my Beresford Caiman as a pre amp into an EL34 power amp & since upgrading my speakers to a pair of Tannoy Eatons the sound has improved greatly.

My question is would I see another improvement in sound quality by using a dedicated pre amp? Connections wise all my sources are digital (Squeezebox, DVD) and hopefully sometime in the future a SACD player. No real space for a vinyl setup so no need for a phono section.

Budget wise I like to buy 2nd hand so I was looking up to £350 and was considering something like a Croft Micro.

Any advice would be greatful received.

kininigin

22-07-2010, 10:19

hi moko,

I also used to run a beresford (TC 7520) as a pre and was happy with the sound,then i bought a croft ahh now we are talking.

When i bought the croft basic i ordered one with a phono stage but was sent one with out,so i spent a couple of weeks listening to it till a replacement came.

And my advice would be get one if you can,now i dont know your power amp or speakers so dont know if it's a good match for them but adding the croft made everthing sound more real and 3-d and just musical.

When waiting for my replacement pre i packed away the wrong one sent and put the beresford back in and i couldn't listen to it even though before it was really good for what it is but it cannot compare to the croft imo.

hifi_dave

22-07-2010, 10:54

Strange but true - adding more circuitry in the shape of a Croft Micro Basic, will improve your sound. It's something to do with matching and driving the amp better.

The Micro Basic has gone up in price because Glenn was making so little it wasn't worth him doing it. The price is now £400....:cool:

Ian Walker

22-07-2010, 11:23

DSJR

22-07-2010, 11:32

I'd also echo the Croft recommendation (with bells and brass knobs on). It'll be the best £400 you've ever spent (assuming you get the phono equipped one) :gig:

One other option (which will desperately need souping up if mine is anything to go by - but well worth it - ) is to get an MF X10-D of whatever vintage, put this between the Caiman and power amp and use the Caiman as a volume control. Again, impedance matching and proper output current seems to be where it's at.

Moko

22-07-2010, 11:48

Do any of the older Crofts come up for sale, I don't need a phono so would that make the basic version any cheaper?

DSJR

22-07-2010, 11:51

Ask HiFi Dave if he knows if the Micro Basic can still come as line only...

All older Crofts have phono stages and do come up for £200 or more. TBH, they (pre's like mine) should be returned to Glenn for fettling, as he's slightly altered the way the circuit works. You won't NEED to do this (I haven't as yet), but it would be a good idea I reckon.

Ali Tait

22-07-2010, 17:13

Another option could be a WAD Pre 2 or 3.One of these would remove any impedance mismatch issues.Very good preamps IMO.

DSJR

22-07-2010, 17:40

+1 :)

Moko

24-07-2010, 14:22

Thanks for the replies so far, it does seem that everyone agrees a preamp would show a big step up in performance.

I have been looking at The Bottlehead site and this simple pre seems to have good reports
http://www.bottlehead.com/store.php?crn=220&rn=438&action=show_detail does anyone here have any experience with "The Quickie"?

I have never done any electronics before but it doesn't look too complicated & there are no mains issues to worry about so little chance of injuring myself!

Ali Tait

24-07-2010, 14:35

Not heard any of their kit,but I've never read anything bad about it.Got to be worth a punt at that price!

DSJR

24-07-2010, 14:55

This one is more professional as it can be used in full balanced mode or single ended depending on the interconnects used (they are available in custom or ready made XLR to phono configurations on fleabay)

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/Vol2.jpg

I think it's well under £300 and apparently sounds exactly like the source fed it, so in other words, totally transparent to the signal fed it...

amdismal

26-07-2010, 12:05

I would look at modding the Caiman to make it passive (essentially, removing the op-amp output stage) and getting a nice valve pre - the Croft and Quickie should be fine.

You could also consider a (valve?) buffer stage, but I have never used these in anger. In principle they should do the same thing, but tbh I'd go for the Quickie - looks excellent value.

Moko

26-07-2010, 15:53

I had that in the back of my mind that once I had a pre amp I would do the caiman mod.

What's a valve buffer? Surely with a valve pre connected into a valve power amp that's enough valves for anyone, or is the more valves the better!

Marco

26-07-2010, 16:04

Hi Moko,

Just a quick one..... What's your proper first name? We like first names here :)

Marco.

Ali Tait

26-07-2010, 16:48

A buffer,valve or otherwise,is used when there is an impedance mismatch between two components in a system.

DSJR

26-07-2010, 16:55

Valve hear often has a high imput impedance (good) but many ss amps don't (bad if you want to mix old and new). Modern ss sources *should* have a low output impedance (good) but old valve era sources (tuners etc) don't, so can sound soft and soggy into modern amps.

Decent line stages/buffers shouldn't affect the sound at all if impedances are properly matched. The MF X10-D was one of the first "popular" ones and when updated with modern components/valves it can do the job fine.

That "quickie looks amazing for $99. Can anyone suggest a cost-effective mains power supply for it?

Ali Tait

26-07-2010, 17:35

Why would you want to? The batteries will give a clean supply

Moko

26-07-2010, 17:45

My name is David

Sorry about that Marco...I did the intro thing ages ago...but mostly I just follow the forum unless I have a question. My knowledge of the subject just seems so small against the posters on this great site.

Jonboy

26-07-2010, 17:48

I can offer you a choice of Audionote Zero pre amps to suit your budget starting with a basic non remote, then a remote and finally a M one remote,
i will beat any price on Ebay like for like,
I had a Croft line pre amp for comaprison recently and the Audionotes were much better in my opionion.
All of the above can also be upgraded with better caps and factory fitted

if you are interested i can give you a demo at my house near Brighton in the next couple of days but i will be away until mid August after that

Ali Tait

26-07-2010, 18:12

If the Dac Zero I have is anything to go by,the pre will be excellent.

Marco

26-07-2010, 18:40

Hi David,

My name is David

Sorry about that Marco...I did the intro thing ages ago...but mostly I just follow the forum unless I have a question. My knowledge of the subject just seems so small against the posters on this great site.

Thanks for that, and also for the your kind comments. Everyone has something to offer here though, no matter the level of one's knowledge! :)

Marco.

PRYML

10-08-2010, 09:54

Hmmm... Does all this imply that a pre-amp basically optimises the signal for reception by the amp? Even if the signal prior to the pre-amp left a volume control, resulting in better overall sound?

Regards,

Malek