Mission 774 Arm; can it run a moving coil cartridge.

[Infinitely Baffled]

I'm currently listening to my records played through a Shure V15 III cartridge, carried on a Mission 774 arm (original type). Sounds fabulous, as you might expect. I'm curious, though, to know how the setup might cope with a typical low-output moving coil. The Mission arm, you might know, has a very low effective mass - somewhere around 5 or 6 grammes. On paper its a very poor match for a stiffly suspended LOMC, but we have all read stories of people getting good results from improbable arm/cartridge combinations. Does anyone here have any experience or insight as to how this might work out?
IB

[mikeyb]

I used mostly MC cartridges on my one, that's what makes the 774 so versatile. You have the damping trough to help if needed for certain cartridges. If I still had my one when I bought my SP10 deck I would have fitted it to as I'm sure it would have been great.

[walpurgis]

It works extremely well with low compliance MC's and Deccas. Just adjust the fluid damping to suit.

[Ali Tait]

As above. Have used mine with a Benz Gullwing SLR. Great sounding combination.

[topoxforddoc]

Yes it can. Back ok the day the combo of the 774 and Entre MC1 was a reviewer’s favourite.

[Frinpaul]

Agreed - I still use an Entre cartridge in a '774! I find it to be an excellent combination, using just light damping. I am sure that many other LOMCs would work well too - I've always found the 774 to be very versatile in terms of cartridge matching. Mine has the optional solid counterweight, but I don't think that impacts on cartridge matching....

[Infinitely Baffled]

Thanks to all of you for these contributions. It makes very interesting reading. Of course I am now completely confused, since the collective experience of users appears to trash the received wisdom of ages about arm and cartridge matching. But I did ask ... !
Cheers
IB

[walpurgis]

the collective experience of users appears to trash the received wisdom of ages about arm and cartridge matchingIB

Not really. Instead of the cartridge just using the mass of the arm for the cantilever suspension to articulate properly (work against), the 774 also has fluid damping to 'load' the cartridge cantilever movement, so less mass is needed. It's simple dynamics.

[worrasf]

FWIW I'm currently using a Decca Supergold in one of my Mission 774's on a Thorens TD150 and a Paradoxpulse Denon DL103R on a modded 1210 in another. With the latter I'm using a custom heavy counterweight from XTC - they both sound superb and way better than in the Jelco TK850s I was previously using. The Mission is truly superb and as others have commented very versatile by dint of the fluid damping (3 paddles for various cartridge compliance). XTC also sell the paddles and damping fluid. The 774 manual notes the correct paddle size to use for a range of cartridge compliances

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[walpurgis]

It should be pointed out that the damping can also be varied by using different viscosity silicone fluid (handy if you only have one paddle :)). Possibly the best way to experiment is starting with thick fluid and adding thin silicone oil accordingly.

[Jac Hawk]

I've always wanted a one of these arms, a bit of an ugly duckling in my opinion, but everyone that's owned one rates them very highly indeed, luckily i found one on ebay attached to a TD160 Super, the deck and arm seem to be in very good condition and i think if the seller had split them up and tried to sell them individually he would have had greater success, however he put quite a high starting offer for the sale which obviously put people off, but luckily for me he also was open to offers, anyway 2 days before the end of the sale there was no bids so i sent a very cheeky offer thinking i was either going to be told to go away or not get a response at all, to my surprise i'm now the proud owner of another TD160, an Audio Technica AT120eb cartridge, a Mission 774 arm complete with paddles and an amplifier of unknown manufacture.

So my questions are:

Is the arm worth a rewire and with what?
Is the arm easy to rewire as i've not done one yet but i'm quite handy
what cartridges suite it? i was thinking of putting my Dynavector 10x5 on it.

Thanks in advance for any help, and here are some pictures from ebay.

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/iMcAAOSwcNlio0JU/s-l1600.jpg



https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/3PUAAOSw5bFiZq2t/s-l1600.jpg

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/yOkAAOSwfcRiZq2m/s-l1600.jpg







https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/mdkAAOSwulViZq2g/s-l1600.jpg

[struth]

general litrature says its difficult but ive seen it used with lowish compliance mc's.. a change in the damping paddle/fluid will be needed i think tho.
geoff(walpurgis) knows these well so will have the best gen

[hifi_dave]

Needs more mass at the headshell end if used with a low compliance, high energy MC.

[shane]

Simple solution, add a bit of mass! This is my Denon 103 mounted in an ally case (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/274420997858?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=AErr8O3RQEi&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=0CocNkIOSFW&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY )which adds about 3g to the cartridge and stiffens it up nicely. I don’t use any damping but the arm resonance is around 6Hz, so well out of the audio band. Bass is deep and fulsome.

https://i.postimg.cc/44cYLPdz/2-BDB2-DE9-E649-4-D41-AAEC-B9-D93057447-E.jpg (https://postimg.cc/qgkBg82R)

[Jac Hawk]

general litrature says its difficult but ive seen it used with lowish compliance mc's.. a change in the damping paddle/fluid will be needed i think tho.
geoff(walpurgis) knows these well so will have the best gen


You're right Grant, I've looked at the instructions and I need to use the thickest paddle with the standard fluid to make the 10x5 work, seems to work with just about anything all you need to do is fit the correct paddle.

So what about a rewire? would it make a difference and if so what's the best wire to get for the arm?

[hifi_dave]

Well, at the time, Mission claimed it used the finest wire money could buy. So....

[Patrick Dixon]

I've used mine with a Decca C4e. About as uncompliant as you can get.

Not too hard to re-wire if you wanted, but the red plug and sockets are hard/expensive to get.

[Ali Tait]

I sent mine to Jonny who rewired with Ikemi silver which I thought a real step up. Not cheap though..

[Jac Hawk]

i was thinking about maybe using this https://www.hificollective.co.uk/wire/audio-note-silver-internal-tone-arm-wire.html

[Ali Tait]

That should be good mate.

[Jac Hawk]

I’m just about ready to do the rewire, but instead of tagging the ground wire to on of the negative cartridge wires I want to run a separate cable to earth the tonearm, my idea would be to replace one of the hex screws holding the cable connector in place with one about 5mm longer, run the earth cable from the arm to it and mount the screw upside down, on the other side attach the outgoing earth to the same longer screw holding it in place with a nut and washer, my question is does anyone know the origin screw size?

[worrasf]

I’m just about ready to do the rewire, but instead of tagging the ground wire to on of the negative cartridge wires I want to run a separate cable to earth the tonearm, my idea would be to replace one of the hex screws holding the cable connector in place with one about 5mm longer, run the earth cable from the arm to it and mount the screw upside down, on the other side attach the outgoing earth to the same longer screw holding it in place with a nut and washer, my question is does anyone know the origin screw size?I've rewired four 774's. It's pretty straight forward as long as you use a "pull through" on the existing cables. I've found Cardas to be very forgiving and it takes up the requisite bend from tonearm to red plug nicely without interfering with the bias. I've always used the existing tag at the front of the arm for grounding and never had any issues - even my Decca Supergold is hum free. The original grounding works very well especially if you remove a small area of black paint on the undersurface of the arm tube where it's clamped to the pillar/bearing assembly.

I'd be a little wary of adding a separate earth wire from the arm to that hex bolt in case it interferes with the bias. The tonearm wires need to be totally passive between arm tube and red connector. Just my two penneth of course.


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[Enossification]

It certainly used to back in the early eighties. I remember it being a first class arm.

[Jac Hawk]

I'd be a little wary of adding a separate earth wire from the arm to that hex bolt in case it interferes with the bias. The tonearm wires need to be totally passive between arm tube and red connector. Just my two penneth of course.


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I thought about that too, however I’m using a piece of the old loom as the earth it’s very thin and if I loosely coil it around the 4 cartridge wires it shouldn’t cause a problem

[Qwin]

Hi Mike
The arm tube does not have a good ground path to the base plate.
Painted tube/clamp and greased bearings don't help.

What I did........
The alloy cartridge mounting block has a ground wire attached to it. This wire attaches to one of the cartridge tags/pins then on through the arm.
I disconnected the grounds from the tag/pin and soldered a new length of wire to the short length from the mounting block, adding fine heat shrink sleeving to the joint.
I then used the old leads, to pull this and the new signal wires through the arm, connecting the ground to a banana grounding post I attached to the rear of my TT.
If you wanted to, you could also fix a wire from the base plate to the grounding post, to fully ground all the metalwork.
To be honest, I've never had to use the grounding post, my decks plinth is Bamboo, with no electrical connection between the arm and anything else.
And as you have heard, using several Phono stages, its silent.

What cartridge are you thinking of using?

[shane]

I bought one of these kits which replaces the red plug and socket with a dual in-line 10 pin plug and socket. I paralleled adjacent pins to halve the contact resistance which gave me a five way plug, one for each cartridge pin and one for the extended arm tube earth wire from the head block. I rewired the whole thing with Satcure litz wire which sadly seems to be no longer available.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/114890920763?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=HEJAoztMQqG&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=0CocNkIOSFW&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY


Having the five way plug means I can wire the arm to my step-up tx for the Denon 103 fully balanced. I’ve tried to get the bugger to hum but it absolutely refuses!

[Jac Hawk]

Hi Mike
The arm tube does not have a good ground path to the base plate.
Painted tube/clamp and greased bearings don't help.

What I did........
The alloy cartridge mounting block has a ground wire attached to it. This wire attaches to one of the cartridge tags/pins then on through the arm.
I disconnected the grounds from the tag/pin and soldered a new length of wire to the short length from the mounting block, adding fine heat shrink sleeving to the joint.
I then used the old leads, to pull this and the new signal wires through the arm, connecting the ground to a banana grounding post I attached to the rear of my TT.
If you wanted to, you could also fix a wire from the base plate to the grounding post, to fully ground all the metalwork.
To be honest, I've never had to use the grounding post, my decks plinth is Bamboo, with no electrical connection between the arm and anything else.
And as you have heard, using several Phono stages, its silent.

What cartridge are you thinking of using?

Hi Ken,

What i've done is solder a cable to the earth tag in the head of the arm tube, run it through and out following the same route as the cartridge wiring, drilled the thread out of one of the cable block screw holes, crimped and soldered small circular connector to the end of the earth wire, then attach the cable with a cartridge screw and nut to the base plate with the reverse of the wiring on the other side terminating at 2 x female RCA's and an earth terminal, it works a treat. I've got my Dynavector 10x5 on it at the moment.

[Qwin]

Hi Ken,

What i've done is solder a cable to the earth tag in the head of the arm tube, run it through and out following the same route as the cartridge wiring, drilled the thread out of one of the cable block screw holes, crimped and soldered small circular connector to the end of the earth wire, then attach the cable with a cartridge screw and nut to the base plate with the reverse of the wiring on the other side terminating at 2 x female RCA's and an earth terminal, it works a treat. I've got my Dynavector 10x5 on it at the moment.

Great news, electrically what you did is the same as what I did, I just tried to use some of the original wire and reduce soldering in tight spots, but good you managed it ok.
Looking forward to hearing it.

[Jac Hawk]

Well the next NEBO isn't a million miles away, i'll be bringing this deck with the Mission arm on it and the Pioneer SA7800 amp that I got for free, which has really surprised me at how good it is, so I'm hoping it works well with the gear available on the day and it shines as well as it's done in my set ups, I'll fill the boot of the car so probably bring some other stuff too.

[Qwin]

:thumbsup:

I'm looking forward to it already Mike.
I'll bring my new LDA phono stage and the Freya+ Pre Amp, which I recently treated to some fancy output caps.
Will work out what else closer to the time.
Going to stay over this time, got a motorhome now, so will be sleeping in that.
Ha ha, just realized this isn't the NEBO thread.