DIY Equipment Rack Build [Archive] - The Art of Sound Forum

DarrenHW

08-10-2020, 16:29

Introduction A.K.A. “The boring bit” – Photos start in post #2.

Having talked about this for long enough the time has eventually come to put the plan into action. The design of the rack is very simple, in favour of attempting to create a rack that can effectively isolate the equipment, I’ve gone done the road of mass damping. I’ve achieved good results with Constraint Layer Damping, using a sandwich of Slate, Cork and Bamboo under each piece of equipment, the rack is intended to be the final layer on top of which the Slate will sit. With this is mind I wanted the rack to act as much as possible as one very large piece of timber free of voids and mechanical fixings.

My choice of material for the rack is Beech, which is an unusual selection for a timber rack and more at home in the Kitchen. The majority of commercial timber racks seem to be of a modular design and constructed of Oak. Despite the fact that I really like the look of Oak and have a plentiful supply in my timber pile, this really would be my last choice of material. I’ve experimented with a number of materials as equipment supports and Oak is one of my least favourite choices. To my ears Oak has imparted a very sharp ring and a “grungy” effect on virtually every piece of equipment I’ve placed on it. I appreciate many people use Oak products as equipment support and are very happy with them, I’m not saying every support constructed from Oak is the same, but purely expressing my opinion :).

In researching different timbers for the construction of the rack I remembered reading a brief article on TAS (https://theaudiostandard.net/thread/773/structural-properties-wood-implications-audio) regarding the structural properties of timber. This breaks hardwoods into 2 categories, Ring Porous and Diffuse Porous. Oak falls into the Ring Porous category as does Cherry, another timber I don’t get on with in this application. So I turned my attention to the Diffuse Porous timbers which include both Maple and Birch, timbers renowned for their acoustic properties not only with the audio enthusiast, but for the construction of musical instruments. One of these timbers would then seem the obvious choice, but I have two major issues with these timbers:

First and foremost, I don’t like the look of either of them, I see them as bland white timber, especially Birch which makes me think of Ikea furniture. I’m not slagging off Ikea’s furniture or its patrons, I have some Ikea furniture and I’m actually sitting on an Ikea Birch Ply chair as I type this. However, the rack will be as much a piece of furniture as an equipment rack, so as the son of a Cabinet Maker, the look of the timber is almost as important to me as it’s acoustic properties.

Secondly, cost and availability. Maple would have nearly doubled my materials bill. Birch is so hard to source in the dimensions I wanted I gave up trying to get a price on it.

I therefore chose Beech. To my eyes an interesting and attractive timber. Falling within the same Diffuse Porous category, so hopefully similar acoustic properties to Maple or Birch whilst being relatively cheap and available. I went for a “Farmhouse Beech” worktop for the shelves. It’s a relatively low grade White Beech with lots of grain differentiation and knots. Aesthetically this is exactly what I wanted as I find it far more visually appealing then Prime Beech and I’ll be using Steamed Beech (a more pinky/brown colour) for the legs as I wanted to create something of a contrast with the hope that it will tie in to the darker timber in the blockboard.

DarrenHW

08-10-2020, 16:32

4 weeks ago, this little lot arrived in the form of one 3m long worktop. I roughly cut it into 3 x 1m lengths to make storage easier whilst allowing it time to acclimatise in the house.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50436727793_d8e5b27c68_c.jpg

Utilising a dry day, meant I could get to work squaring up and ripping down each shelf and allow the wind to take away the majority of the dust. Hardly luxury working conditions, but at least I only had 3 shelves to work on.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50436727653_f4102b829b_c.jpg

3 shelves squared up and ripped down. I’ll joint the 2 offcuts on the left hand side and experiment with them as Speaker Stands. The offcut on the right hand side has been ripped down to use as a lateral brace. Probably unnecessary, but I had no other use for it and it will add a little more mass.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50437419611_158f3c5b02_c.jpg

Off my knees onto the legs, thankfully! That’s the finest tooth blade I have (70 on a 260mm blade) and it’s relatively fresh, but I still had to take my time to avoid burning the timber.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50437592132_2b01f6ab28_c.jpg

4 Legs cut. Holes drilled for dowels to overcome any ideas the top shelf may have to lift. 2 x trenches / dados and 1 x rebate marked up.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50436727123_21cd9861a2_c.jpg

Test fitting along the way as much as anything else to relive the monotony of all the passes with the saw.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50437591877_3e0d7bb46d_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50437593147_306a7c3f58_c.jpg

Dry fitted with a sigh of relief that i, all my cuts were good, ii, my hands get a break, I’ve been off the tools full time for 2 years and they’ve got weak!

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50437592982_06cc6beeab_c.jpg

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50436728068_30fe5182e7_c.jpg

The lines on the tops of the legs were transferred to the top shelf to line up the dowel jig for a reciprocal hole

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50437420046_25cbe678b8_c.jpg

Running out of daylight and quite happy to call it a day it was time to pack up and tidy up. Next up will be a final clean up and finesse of the trenches, drill out for the threaded inserts for the feet and then give everything a good sand prior to gluing.

I'm happy with how it's all coming together and the look with the Steamed Beech legs, although how this will change when it's oiled remains to be seen. It does look like it would be more at home in the Kitchen than the Living Room, hopefully stuffing it full of black electronics will change that?!?

Marco

08-10-2020, 17:17

Looking good, Dazza! And excellent workmanship, which I'd expect nothing less from with you.

I haven't really experimented with different materials of wood for racks, as you've done, so I can't disagree with your observations in that respect on oak. However, visually the beech looks excellent, so if you reckon it sounds better, then you're onto a winner:)

What I would say from the (considerable) experience I've had over the years experimenting with equipment racks/supports and damping/reducing vibration, etc, is that it's almost always beneficial to introduce a form of secondary isolation on the shelves of racks themselves.

Therefore, consider installing a 'spike and cup' arrangement, in conjunction with another piece of timber, cut to the size of the gear its supporting (allowing for some overhang), which will be supported on said spikes, as I'm virtually certain that will sound better than simply placing your equipment directly onto the bare shelves.

I'd also seriously consider doing the same with a plinth, which the rack itself sits on top of, thus offering another layer of isolation/decoupling from floor-borne vibrations, as in my experience the sonic benefits will be similar and eminently worthwhile.

Furthermore, by introducing a plinth, particularly if you implement it properly, will allow the rack to sit higher up from the ground, thereby reducing the necessity to crawl on your hands and knees on the floor, when lifting equipment in or out, or whenever you have to access your gear.

Trust me, it's far better having your gear, at least at waist height from the ground, than at floor level, for that very reason! Most commercially made racks sit too near the floor to realistically be practical, and accessing your gear, from the front or rear, as easily [and painlessly!] as possible, is an important and often not properly considered factor.

So have a think about that aspect of the rack's design, in terms of where you'd like your gear situated for easy access - and in that respect, when placing it in your room, allow plenty of space from it and the back wall, so you can get at all the cables and connections easily.

Anyway, just a few thoughts mate - it's going to turn out well and look really nice in your room, as well as sounding good:cool:

Marco.

P.S I've tied up your pics and removed some unnecessary img tags, containing your name on your flickr account, so it looks better.

RobbieGong

08-10-2020, 17:18

Nuff respect Darren and looking good.

Racks can cost big bucks so I've only admiration for anyone who has the skill and mind to build his own :thumbsup:

DarrenHW

08-10-2020, 17:35

Looking good, Dazza! And excellent workmanship, which I'd expect nothing less from with you.

I haven't really experimented with different materials of wood for racks, as you've done, so I can't disagree with your observations in that respect on oak. However, visually the beech looks excellent, so if you reckon it sounds better, then you're onto a winner:)

Thank you very much.

What I would say from the (considerable) experience I've had with experiment with equipment racks/supports and damping/reducing vibration, etc, is that it's almost always beneficial to introduce a form of secondary isolation on the shelves of racks themselves.

Therefore, consider introducing a 'spike and cup' arrangement, in conjunction with another piece of timber, cut to the size of the gear its supporting (allowing for some overhang), which will be supported on said spikes, as I'm virtually certain that will sound better than simply placing your equipment directly onto the bare shelves.

We're on the same page. This will be for the AV gear so the only thing I'm really concerned with optimising will be the BDP which I intend to cite on a Mana Sound Frame clone. This will also have the aesthetic advantage of giving it a bit of height so it doesn't look so tiny sat next to the incoming Denon.

I'd also seriously consider doing the same with a plinth, which the rack itself sits on top of, thus offering another layer of isolation from vibrations introduced from the floor, as in my experience the sonic benefits will be similar and eminently worthwhile. Furthermore, introducing a plinth, particularly if you implement it properly, will allow the rack to sit higher up from the ground, thereby reducing the necessity to crawl on your hands and knees on the floor, when lifting equipment in or out, or whenever you have to access your gear.

I have thought about that and if I drop on a suitably sized and priced piece of slate that's exactly what I'll do, although I doubt anyone's back will be happy about getting that set in place!

Trust me, it's far better having your gear, at least at waist height from the ground, than at floor level, for that very reason! So have a think about that aspect of the rack's design, in terms of where you'd like your gear situated for easy access - and in that respect, when placing it in your room, allow plenty of space from it and the back wall, so you can get at all the cables and connections easily.

I'll do that with the TT etc in the listening room, but I want this to be a low rider. Popping in the occassional UHDBD is the only time I intend to go near it once everything's finalised.

P.S I've tied up your pics and removed some unnecessary img tags, containing your name on your flickr account, so it looks better.

Thank you, I'm still getting used to the shift to Flickr.

DarrenHW

08-10-2020, 17:40

Nuff respect Darren and looking good.

Racks can cost big bucks so I've only admiration for anyone who has the skill and mind to build his own :thumbsup:

Thanks Robbie, to be honest it's all in the tools. I enjoy both the planning and execution so that and the big cost saving is all the motivation I need, it's just time I've been short on.

InThe Sticks

08-10-2020, 18:22

Is that an E34 M5 in one of your pics?

bosa

08-10-2020, 18:24

Having made a small rack myself for my second system and my son last week making a custom rack for his kit, I can vouch that there is a huge amount of satisfaction especially if you like working with wood. I agree the planning is a key part.

A great looking rack. Enjoy!

DarrenHW

08-10-2020, 18:47

Is that an E34 M5 in one of your pics?

Good eye! Unfortunately it's not an M5, just the wheel from one. It's a 1993 E34 520i Touring, so couldn't be further away really. I bought it as a "Practical Classic" i.e. one I could chuck timber in the back of, or strap my MTB to the top off without having a guilt complex. I had one as my first real car back in the early 00's and loved it, so thought I'd pick up another before they disappear into a pile of oxidised steel and degraded plastic.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50437395768_d3fd895475_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jQYQxS)

DarrenHW

08-10-2020, 18:52

Marco

08-10-2020, 19:09

We're on the same page. This will be for the AV gear so the only thing I'm really concerned with optimising will be the BDP which I intend to cite on a Mana Sound Frame clone. This will also have the aesthetic advantage of giving it a bit of height so it doesn't look so tiny sat next to the incoming Denon.

Ah I see... Makes sense, and I think will work well:)

I have thought about that and if I drop on a suitably sized and priced piece of slate that's exactly what I'll do, although I doubt anyone's back will be happy about getting that set in place!

I may be able to help there... Years ago, when I playing around with slate, I discovered a small business/private seller, based in Blaenau Ffestiniog. They sell 'Slate Chippings' online in various quantities, which they can deliver: https://celticslateandstone.co.uk/decorative-stone-slate-chippings/

However, the interesting thing is that if you go along there, essentially to his quarry, you can pick up 'off-cuts' cheaply, in various sizes, big bits too [which they can finish off for you], and take them back home. So if you fancy it, we could go once the Covid restrictions have eased, as I know where it is, and there's a cracking pub near it too (which hopefully will still be open) where we could have a spot of lunch - be a decent day out!:cool:

Marco.

Wakefield Turntables

08-10-2020, 19:09

Looking good. Funnily enough I made a hi-fi rack last week, nowhere as good as those yours.

DarrenHW

08-10-2020, 19:18

Ah I see... Makes sense, and I think will work well:)

I may be able to help there... Years ago, when I playing around with slate, I discovered a small business/private seller, based in Blaenau Ffestiniog. They sell 'Slate Chippings' online in various quantities, which they can deliver: https://celticslateandstone.co.uk/decorative-stone-slate-chippings/

However, the interesting thing is that if you go along there, essentially to his quarry, you can pick up 'off-cuts' cheaply, in various sizes, big bits too [which they can finish off for you], and take them back home. So if you fancy it, we could go once the Covid restrictions have eased, as I know where it is, and there's a cracking pub near it too (which hopefully will still be open) where we could have a spot of lunch - be a decent day out!:cool:

Marco.

Berwyn Quarrie's closer and you can do the same there, that's where I got my first lot of slate from, for essentially give away prices. I've got a cache of Cumbrian Slate for this rack which being Green, will either work, or look terrible?

To be honest though, since having the second layer of the plinth for my TT cut, I've become rather fond of Italian Slate so may look at a reclaimed snooker table bed, or two...

P.S. I love your new avatar, just the right amount of cheese!

DarrenHW

08-10-2020, 19:20

Looking good. Funnily enough I made a hi-fi rack last week, nowhere as good as those yours.

Thanks Andy, I didn't realise there were so many budding wood workers on here. Why's no one putting up photos?

Marco

08-10-2020, 20:03

Berwyn Quarrie's closer and you can do the same there, that's where I got my first lot of slate from, for essentially give away prices. I've got a cache of Cumbrian Slate for this rack which being Green, will either work, or look terrible?

To be honest though, since having the second layer of the plinth for my TT cut, I've become rather fond of Italian Slate so may look at a reclaimed snooker table bed, or two...

P.S. I love your new avatar, just the right amount of cheese!

No worries, dude. Didn't know about those other places. If I'd known you'd have this project on the go last year when I was in Italy, I'd have brought you some back in the car!:D

Cheers, on that avatar. Just a bit of fun:)

Marco.

Wakefield Turntables

08-10-2020, 20:10

Thanks Andy, I didn't realise there were so many budding wood workers on here. Why's no one putting up photos?

Because my work dosen't hold a candle to some of the very talented people on here. Mines functional, hasn't fallen to pieces yet and looks reasonably neat.

Marco

08-10-2020, 20:28

How about a sticky thread then, entitled: 'Showz yer wood!':eek::D

Marco.

DarrenHW

09-10-2020, 06:35

Because my work dosen't hold a candle to some of the very talented people on here. Mines functional, hasn't fallen to pieces yet and looks reasonably neat.

Fair enough, I know what you're saying.

It occurred to me last night that you may have been the inspiration for this rack. I'm sure it was a thread you started on here that introduced me to the Ikea Aptitlig chopping board, which I now use under everything. This, through various thread hops, lead me to reading up on CLD and experimenting with the use of Slate and Cork, a sandwich which on the Mana rack I preferred to any other medium. It was through further reading as to why the Bamboo boards were so effective that influenced my choice to use blockboard for the shelves of the rack.

Fair warning, if the rack is a failure I'll hold you responsible, but if it's a success, obviously I'll take all the credit :D

DarrenHW

09-10-2020, 06:51

How about a sticky thread then, entitled: 'Showz yer wood!':eek::D

Marco.

:lol:

We could then run a few poles:

"Is your wood hard or soft?"

a. Hard, b, Soft, c, It depends.

"How often do you polish your wood?"

a, Week, b, Monthly, c, I can't remember the last time, d, I've got blisters!

"What does your partner think of your wood?"

a, She won't leave it alone, b, She accepts it for what it is, c, She hasn't even looked at it in years :wah:

struth

09-10-2020, 07:25

wax on, wax off;)

bosa

09-10-2020, 08:46

Wot no build thread?? :D

What was your timber of choice?

For mine I picked up a slab of beech locally which had been stored for a couple of years so nice and dry. Just the right size for 3 shelves. The legs are oak from a local timber merchant, £10 for sawn offcuts. Oiled with Danish oil. Spiked shelves.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201009/446a1c481dd90f18bf62619b1a2c37d7.jpg

My son’s rack is sepele shelves and oak legs, again using offcuts from the timber merchant. Danish oil. Fixed shelves.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201009/efd6922a2c340e63b923c01e9f342772.jpg

Bksabath

09-10-2020, 09:13

Why 4 legs ?
3 legs would have sorted the wobbly table problem
Still love it

Marco

09-10-2020, 09:36

:lol:

We could then run a few poles:

"Is your wood hard or soft?"

a. Hard, b, Soft, c, It depends.

"How often do you polish your wood?"

a, Week, b, Monthly, c, I can't remember the last time, d, I've got blisters!

"What does your partner think of your wood?"

a, She won't leave it alone, b, She accepts it for what it is, c, She hasn't even looked at it in years :wah:

:lolsign:

Love it!:D

Marco.

Marco

09-10-2020, 09:38

Nice, Jonathan! Dazza, that's the 'spike and cup' arrangement I was talking about... For me, sonically, it's always a winner:)

Marco.

bosa

09-10-2020, 11:55

I have to admit I have a HiFi Racks stand for my main system and I copied the design using M8 inserts in the shelves and legs with bolts so the legs are easy to change. I made a longer set as a spare. The spike cups are inserted flush into the shelves. All hardware from ebay or Amazon.

DarrenHW

09-10-2020, 13:43

For mine I picked up a slab of beech locally which had been stored for a couple of years so nice and dry. Just the right size for 3 shelves. The legs are oak from a local timber merchant, £10 for sawn offcuts. Oiled with Danish oil. Spiked shelves.

Looking good! That's an interesting colour on the Beech, did you dye it, or is that it's natural colour?

My son’s rack is sepele shelves and oak legs, again using offcuts from the timber merchant. Danish oil. Fixed shelves.

I really like the look of that! I was tempted to use Sepele for the legs on mine, but I just wasn't brave enough so settled on Steamed Beech.

DarrenHW

09-10-2020, 13:48

Why 4 legs ?
3 legs would have sorted the wobbly table problem
Still love it

Whilst I was temped to rock the tripod, I was concerned about shelves sagging. My Power Amps weigh 35kg each and that's before adding 25mm Slate. I'm actually going to install a fifth leg in the centre of the bottom shelf just in case.

DarrenHW

09-10-2020, 14:12

Nice, Jonathan! Dazza, that's the 'spike and cup' arrangement I was talking about... For me, sonically, it's always a winner:)

Marco.

Yes, I'm familiar with the concept, that's what I was referring to in my OP:

The majority of commercial timber racks seem to be of a modular design and constructed of Oak.

The idea behind my rack is to experiment with mass loading and take CLD as far as I care to. Plus (no offence meant to anyone, beauty is in the eye of the beholder) I don't really like the look.

I have no idea what the result will be, but the only way to find out was to take a leap of faith and build one. As this is for the AV it's not as critical as supporting a TT or Valve Phono Stage etc.. so not much to lose. And as you have previously eluded to, I still have the option of isolating equipment individually on the shelves, to this end, I'm far more interested in pursuing a ball and cup arrangement.

I have no intention of permanently housing equipment on the top shelf so this will act as an easily accessible test shelf. A piece of equipment can be placed on the top shelf, evaluated and then moved over to another rack e.g. the Mana, for comparison. Which ever solution is deemed most effective will form the basis for the equipment support in the listening room and you can bet your arse you'll be invited/dragged round for that :).

bosa

09-10-2020, 14:39

Looking good! That's an interesting colour on the Beech, did you dye it, or is that it's natural colour?

I really like the look of that! I was tempted to use Sepele for the legs on mine, but I just wasn't brave enough so settled on Steamed Beech.

This was the natural colour. The Danish oil brings out the colour and grain rather than dying it.

bosa

09-10-2020, 14:42

Whilst I was temped to rock the tripod, I was concerned about shelves sagging. My Power Amps weigh 35kg each and that's before adding 25mm Slate. I'm actually going to install a fifth leg in the centre of the bottom shelf just in case.

I used this to calculate the potential sag in some shelves...

https://www.woodbin.com/calcs/sagulator/

DarrenHW

09-10-2020, 14:58

This was the natural colour. The Danish oil brings out the colour and grain rather than dying it.

I see. Did you use sanding sealer?

I used this to calculate the potential sag in some shelves...

https://www.woodbin.com/calcs/sagulator/

Now that's a handy link, thank you. As far as I could see it doesn't cover block board, which I imagine is more susceptible to sagging due to the lack of continuous grain.

Where abouts are you Jonathan, are you in Lockdown Lite too? (no worries if you'd rather not say, there's all kind of weirdos on the net :flasher:)

Marco

09-10-2020, 16:18

The idea behind my rack is to experiment with mass loading and take CLD as far as I care to. Plus (no offence meant to anyone, beauty is in the eye of the beholder) I don't really like the look.

What's CLD?:hmm:

I have no idea what the result will be, but the only way to find out was to take a leap of faith and build one. As this is for the AV it's not as critical as supporting a TT or Valve Phono Stage etc.. so not much to lose. And as you have previously eluded to, I still have the option of isolating equipment individually on the shelves, to this end, I'm far more interested in pursuing a ball and cup arrangement.

Cool beans... Time constraints aside, I wouldn't skimp on the design of your rack, in terms of its isolation/decoupling effect and ability in minimising the effects of resonance. Even though it's 'just for AV', ALL forms of audio equipment benefit from such an approach, hence why I even have the PSUs for my Croft and Paul Hynes MC head amp on 13 levels of Mana!:eyebrows:;)

Plus... You don't know what the future will bring, and therefore what the rack may be used to support in a year, 2 years or 3 years time, so while you're 'on the job', as it were, I'd make it as GOOD as you possibly can, and in that respect tick every box!:)

Therefore, I would go for the ball and cup arrangement, in conjunction with additional shelf isolation. This one doesn't use a ball and cup arrangement, but I have a lot of respect for the design principles behind the Finite Elemente Pagode, see here: https://positive-feedback.com/interviews/luis-fernandes-finite-elemente/

After Mana, it's the finest equipment support I've experienced and really does allow any piece of equipment placed upon it to shine!

I have no intention of permanently housing equipment on the top shelf so this will act as an easily accessible test shelf. A piece of equipment can be placed on the top shelf, evaluated and then moved over to another rack e.g. the Mana, for comparison. Which ever solution is deemed most effective will form the basis for the equipment support in the listening room and you can bet your arse you'll be invited/dragged round for that :).

Smart move, and you know I'll be there to help in any way if you need me:cool:

Marco.

P.S Don't forget to PM me later about that thing we discussed.

bosa

09-10-2020, 16:22

I see. Did you use sanding sealer?

Now that's a handy link, thank you. As far as I could see it doesn't cover block board, which I imagine is more susceptible to sagging due to the lack of continuous grain.

Where abouts are you Jonathan, are you in Lockdown Lite too? (no worries if you'd rather not say, there's all kind of weirdos on the net :flasher:)

No, just 3 coats of oil.

In West Wales here. Luckily one of the least affected areas and just subject to the general Welsh guidelines.

Wakefield Turntables

09-10-2020, 16:52

Fair enough, I know what you're saying.

It occurred to me last night that you may have been the inspiration for this rack. I'm sure it was a thread you started on here that introduced me to the Ikea Aptitlig chopping board, which I now use under everything. This, through various thread hops, lead me to reading up on CLD and experimenting with the use of Slate and Cork, a sandwich which on the Mana rack I preferred to any other medium. It was through further reading as to why the Bamboo boards were so effective that influenced my choice to use blockboard for the shelves of the rack.

Fair warning, if the rack is a failure I'll hold you responsible, but if it's a success, obviously I'll take all the credit :D

Thanks, nice to know my ideas sometimes work. I don't think I would do a complete shelf using CLD, too costly. I'd probably end up modding the Aptitlig chopping boards I use with a CLD design. I'd thought maybe bamboo-sorbothane-aluminium? It's been a while since I experimented TBH. I usually like to find the "nuclear" option which usually means find the most cost effective method of employing the best known strategies/components to get a problem solved. A typical example being to order a Martin Bastin Panzerholz construction plinth for my Garrard 401, this design has a decoupled motor but Panzerholz as a material has a high damping factor. I'd probably sit this on a Bamboo chopping board or a modified CLD bamboo chopping board. You could then house that on whatever you want and it would be pretty immune to most extrinsic vibrational factors. Just saying....

Wakefield Turntables

09-10-2020, 16:54

What's CLD?:hmm:

Constrained Layer Damping. A very good and cheap way of improving your TT. Here, have a read..

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=constrained+layer+damping

DarrenHW

09-10-2020, 17:13

What's CLD?:hmm:

Constrained Layer Damping.

The design of the rack is very simple, in favour of attempting to create a rack that can effectively isolate the equipment, I’ve gone done the road of mass damping. I’ve achieved good results with Constraint Layer Damping, using a sandwich of Slate, Cork and Bamboo under each piece of equipment, the rack is intended to be the final layer on top of which the Slate will sit. With this is mind I wanted the rack to act as much as possible as one very large piece of timber free of voids and mechanical fixings.

I'm starting to think you didn't read "The Boring Bit" :)

Cool beans... Time constraints aside, I wouldn't skimp on the design of your rack, in terms of its isolation/decoupling effect and ability in minimising the effects of resonance. Even though it's 'just for AV', ALL forms of audio equipment benefit from such an approach, hence why I even have the PSUs for my Croft and Paul Hynes MC head amp on 13 levels of Mana!:eyebrows:;)

Plus... You don't know what the future will bring, and therefore what the rack may be used to support in a year, 2 years or 3 years time, so while you're 'on the job', as it were, I'd make it as GOOD as you possibly can, and in that respect tick every box!:)

I'm not skimping, it is the design. The only areas I've skimped on, are using Beech instead of Maple and the feet, but as previously mentioned, it's experimental.

Therefore, I would go for the ball and cup arrangement, in conjunction with additional shelf isolation. This one doesn't use a ball and cup arrangement, but I have a lot of respect for the design principles behind the Finite Elemente Pagode, see here: https://positive-feedback.com/interviews/luis-fernandes-finite-elemente/

After Mana, it's the finest equipment support I've experienced and really does allow any piece of equipment placed upon it to shine!

Smart move, and you know I'll be there to help in any way if you need me:cool:

Marco.

P.S Don't forget to PM me later about that thing we discussed.

Incoming...

DarrenHW

09-10-2020, 17:31

Thanks, nice to know my ideas sometimes work. I don't think I would do a complete shelf using CLD, too costly. I'd probably end up modding the Aptitlig chopping boards I use with a CLD design. I'd thought maybe bamboo-sorbothane-aluminium?

I've gone Bamboo - Cork - Slate - TBC - Beech Block Board. I've tried Delrin, Sorbathane and Aluminium in the mix but didn't get on with them, however they will be tried in the TBC layer(s) and I plan to bring Brass and maybe Copper into the mix.

It's been a while since I experimented TBH. I usually like to find the "nuclear" option which usually means find the most cost effective method of employing the best known strategies/components to get a problem solved. A typical example being to order a Martin Bastin Panzerholz construction plinth for my Garrard 401, this design has a decoupled motor but Panzerholz as a material has a high damping factor. I'd probably sit this on a Bamboo chopping board or a modified CLD bamboo chopping board. You could then house that on whatever you want and it would be pretty immune to most extrinsic vibrational factors. Just saying....

Panzerholz is definitely a material I'd like to try and may do if the results from this are encouraging. This rack is for my AV gear.

Marco

09-10-2020, 18:40

Constrained Layer Damping.

I'm starting to think you didn't read "The Boring Bit" :)

Quite possibly lol, as I ain't no DIY-er, so would've glossed over dat bit! Suitably educated now:D

I'm not skimping, it is the design. The only areas I've skimped on, are using Beech instead of Maple and the feet, but as previously mentioned, it's experimental.

Yups, just meant that while it's easiest to do stuff, i.e. when the rack's not in your room full of kit, and you have it naked in your hands [oo-er], do everything that needs done in one hit:)

Marco.

DarrenHW

13-10-2020, 17:41

Not much progress, but I got everything cleaned up, sanded and glued together at the weekend. You really can't have too many Sash Cramps...

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50471128053_381c4abc2a_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jTXHYZ)

I'll give it another final sand, some sanding sealer, then on to the oil.

Marco

13-10-2020, 20:48

Looking good, mate:)

Marco.

Pigmy Pony

14-10-2020, 19:13

How about a sticky thread then, entitled: 'Showz yer wood!':eek::D

Marco.

My erections don't last very long :(

Wakefield Turntables

14-10-2020, 19:56

DarrenHW

18-10-2020, 17:54

Not much in terms of visual progress, but it's getting close to completion.

I started by sanded down to 240g and then applied 2 coats of sanding sealer denibbing with 240g between coats. I like using sanding sealer as it seals the timber and fills the pores. This means that not only do you get a more even finish, but the finishing process is quicker as it only needs ~1 hour between coats as opposed to Danish Oil which is 24 hours. This has (in this application) the benefit that the timber will retain more of it's natural finish as it's not being darkened by more coats of Oil.

Once the sanding sealer had completely dried I hit it again with a final sanding at 600g and gave it a good coat of Danish Oil.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50501930546_f69ec51b91_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jWFAus)

It's not as yellow as it looks in the photo, this is down to the lighting in the garage, if you look at the shaded sections on the lower 2 shelves that gives a better impression. I'm pretty pleased with the way it's turning out, there was more glue bleed into the end grain of the shelves than I'd realised and this can be seen in the finish. I'm disappointed in myself for that one, I did considered masking either side of the glue joints, or even masking the glue joints and applying sanding sealer first, but decided against it and now wish I hadn't chanced it :(

I spent a couple of hours yesterday chopping up the Cumbrian slate I have from a reclaimed hearth and I think it's going to be a nice look, or at least I hope it will, as I've now got the painstaking task of polishing all the cut edges!

Time willing, I'll hit the rack with a couple more coats of Oil (applied with wire wool to to effectively denib at the same time) and get the slate finished this week, ready to fill it up at the weekend.

karma67

18-10-2020, 18:03

looking good! have you used oil on top of sanding sealer before?

DarrenHW

18-10-2020, 18:50

looking good! have you used oil on top of sanding sealer before?

Thanks mate. Good to see you again. Are you still making Mana'esq Sound platforms?

Yes, I've used it pre oil before, I guess I know why you're asking. Due to sanding between coats I don't have any issues with penetration and it's to avoid excessive (to my requirements on this project) coats of oil that I've used it in this situation. Had this been intended for an area of heavy use / moisture content I wouldn't have, but as it's to house my equipment in the lounge I've sealed to achieve a desired finish.

Marco

18-10-2020, 20:15

Yeah, defo looking good, Dazza... That last treatment has really brought out the grain! Noice:)

Marco.

jasonC

19-10-2020, 13:59

it looks lovely, i wish i had your skill set.
i can make painting a wall look hard.

DarrenHW

19-10-2020, 16:16

Yeah, defo looking good, Dazza... That last treatment has really brought out the grain! Noice:)

Marco.

Thanks mate. I've just had a peak at it now the first coat of oil's dried and I'm really happy with the finish.

DarrenHW

19-10-2020, 16:20

it looks lovely, i wish i had your skill set.
i can make painting a wall look hard.

Thank you very much.

Andy Weston

19-10-2020, 19:41

Looks great & when the slate goes on I think even better, wish I had your talents 👏

Marco

19-10-2020, 22:27

Thanks mate. I've just had a peak at it now the first coat of oil's dried and I'm really happy with the finish.

Quality... It'll defo look 'purposeful' when it's been populated!:eyebrows:

Marco.

Pigmy Pony

20-10-2020, 06:48

DarrenHW

20-10-2020, 16:00

Quality... It'll defo look 'purposeful' when it's been populated!:eyebrows:

Marco.

I think so too. I've just given it a final coat of oil and applied the first coat of sealer to the now polished slate, it really is starting to look like the image I had in my head and I'm really looking forward to getting everything sited. The question of how it performs as a rack will then be answered...

DarrenHW

20-10-2020, 16:01

Looks great & when the slate goes on I think even better, wish I had your talents 👏

Thank you Andy, I think so too, come the weekend we'll find out...

DarrenHW

20-10-2020, 17:35

That looks great Darren, and easily 'shop bought' quality. Don't know how old you are, but come retirement time it could become a hobby that pays - I'm sure plenty of folk would happily pay good money for shelving made to that standard, myself included :)

Thank you for the very kind comments Steve. It's funny you mention making it a hobby that pays, that's sort of my intention.

I've just entered my forties, ten years ago my father died rather prematurely and before reaching retirement, at the time I had a pretty well paid, but otherwise unrewarding career in IT. When my father died I made a vow that I would never waste another day of my life doing something I didn't enjoy in the name of chasing paper I may never get the chance to kick back and enjoy. I was just finishing the renovation of my first house, which was a project that at times I'd regretted taking on (£££££), but I really enjoyed and excelled at. Some friends of mine had recently bought an Old Barn (https://www.caemadogbarn.co.uk/) which they were in the process of renovating and struggling to find good trades. They'd asked me to work on it, but I wanted to get my place finished off and didn't have the free time. When my father died, I said f@ck it, gave them a call and handed in my notice the following morning. For the next 8 years I went from job to job purely on referral and being very particular about the property and standard of work required (as Marco will attest). I wasn't making the same sort of money (and due to a relationship breakdown, lost the house I'd dedicated 5 years of my life to) but I was truly happy, I bounced out of bed in the morning and couldn't wait to get to work!

Just over 2 years ago, I had all my eggs in one basket and the rug was pulled out from under me. I was about to take on the biggest job of my building career, which being in a historic and prosperous area of Wrexham would really have launched my business. However, the client's situation changed dramatically overnight, the project was put on hold and still is. With few options and the wolf dangerously close to my door, I took a job with a national house builder. My heart wasn't in the work being quantity over quality, but having worked essentially on my own for 8 years it was nice to be part of a team again and also nice to have a regular pay cheque. Had it not been for Covid, I'd now be second in command on a 70+ plot development, but due to the uncertain future (and the fact that the company has a large portfolio in North Sea Oil) the project was mothballed. I'm jobbing again now, and due to making a number of contacts over the last couple of years, the majority of this is in the new build sector.

My plan for the last few years has been to buy some land out in the sticks with enough space to build a nice house and a nicer workshop, that I can use to financially support myself in a manner that's sustainable as the back gets weaker and the hair gets greyer. Due to my age, having had a somewhat colourful past and a wildly fluctuating income, buying the land outright is the only option really available to me. I'm 2 years of saving away from that, but I've been 2 years away for the last 4 years and in the current environment it's impossible to say when I'll return to an income that affords me that kind of disposable income. None the less that is the plan/dream I'm working towards.

It was my fathers death that got me into this hobby too. One of the few things I got from my fathers estate (he immigrated to New Zealand and started a new life with his second wife) was a mix tape he'd made which was a road trip favourite when we were kids. My brother and I set out to create a digital version which is when we found out, i, it contained 12" Singles, ii, what 12" Singles were! We started buying turntables and after graduating to a Technics 1210 I ended up here. Funny how one moment can change the course of your life.

bosa

20-10-2020, 18:16

What a story. You deserve money, happiness and more. And a great sound system!

I took an enforced early retirement from an IT role 5 years ago and moved to Wales. I hope you find what you need in this country.

I love getting my ‘hands dirty’ but not the confidence to try the big stuff. However working with wood is very rewarding.

DarrenHW

20-10-2020, 18:33

Thanks Jonathan. I've lived in Wales since I was 5. My parents moved from Windsor to sleepy Mid Wales and I used to hate it, especially after trips to visit family in the Old Country. I left when I went to University and swore I'd never return! Family matters brought me back 4 years later, I left again, then work brought me to Wrexham with some resentment. It was only when I got back in Mountain Biking a few years ago that I realised how much I feel at home in the Welsh Countryside.

Marco

20-10-2020, 21:35

For the next 8 years I went from job to job purely on referral and being very particular about the property and standard of work required (as Marco will attest)...

Indeed, lol... The man's a perfectionist. Same attitude as me, when it comes to the things I'm good at (contrary to common belief, there is a few:eyebrows:), although woodwork isn't one, in that you either do a job RIGHT or not at all! 'Bodges' simply don't exist in our vocabulary...

Aside from that mate, nice synopsis of your life's adventures, some of which I was unaware of. Aye, there's only one Dazza....thank fuck!:lol:

Only kidding... If only there were more folks like you (and Luke) populating this earth, it would be a better place. Oh, and more cats. You can never have too many pussies with attitude in your life;)

Marco.

Pharos

20-10-2020, 22:20

DarrenHW

21-10-2020, 17:39

Indeed, lol... The man's a perfectionist. Same attitude as me, when it comes to the things I'm good at (contrary to common belief, there is a few:eyebrows:), although woodwork isn't one, in that you either do a job RIGHT or not at all! 'Bodges' simply don't exist in our vocabulary...

Aside from that mate, nice synopsis of your life's adventures, some of which I was unaware of. Aye, there's only one Dazza....thank fuck!:lol:

Only kidding... If only there were more folks like you (and Luke) populating this earth, it would be a better place. Oh, and more cats. You can never have too many pussies with attitude in your life;)

Marco.

Many would agree with you, including Luke, who, for those that don't know me, is the aforementioned brother I began this audio adventure with.

I think it's our shared attitude that if a jobs worth doing, it's worth doing properly and the fact that we're not afraid to fly in the face of convention, that's kept our friendship alive all these years :cool:

DarrenHW

21-10-2020, 19:22

That is a very interesting autobiography Darren, showing some of your trials and tribulations.

You seem much more willing than I to take risks, but I have spent much of my adult life trying to overcome the imprinted insecurities resulting from my upbringing, the result of which was to seek security in large corporations, and with my greater understanding and reformed attitudes, I think they are dreadful.

There are real downsides; little scope for progression because of politics, never really being given the chance to see how well one can do, and IME the resentment of those who callously just 'try to get by'.

I know exactly what you're saying Dennis. I lived in the shadow of my parents expectations pretty much until my Father died. It's not that my Father was overbearing, but his death was liberating in that it scared me into doing what was right for me and not what I thought would make them "proud". I have subsequently engineered my life to give me the freedom to allow me to take risks, this has meant making sacrifices, but as I look at it, all I've sacrificed is potential mediocrity.

Having worked for BT and the Welsh Assembly Government, I completely agree with your opinion of large organisation. IMO they are usually controlled by the inept, who are generally only in the position they are due to their contacts and will do anything to retain that paycheque, including extinguishing any bright flames that may shine light on their woeful incompetence. I have had the pleasure of meeting and working with some truly exceptional people but in my admittedly limited experience, they are the exception rather than the rule.

Because of self doubt it has only been at the age of 54 that I had the confidence to even try to seriously work at speaker design, and after this the result was praised by an industry professional who said he could sell it for £4k.

I also love to do things as well as possible, and this does cause some to react negatively for a variety of reasons. girl friends say it is obsessive, and people say that it is irrelevant to do so, when in fact much of it does contribute directly to a better product.

I'm not a picture of self confidence either (a trait shared with my Father). I used to believe I was, until I made the realisation it was just a defensive wall of misplaced arrogance. This was a bitter pill to swallow, but when I see this in others, I am grateful I had my eyes opened. Moving to rural Wales as a child, I grew up as an outsider, so doing my own thing has been part of my life and I am relieved that I've (apart from a brief period in my mid teens :rolleyes:) never really been bothered about anyone else's opinion.

Not many of my friends, colleagues or even customers can understand why I pursue my own personal quest for excellence either. But one of the strengths I've learnt I posses in the last 2 years of site work, is the ability to bring out the best in others and it's really nice to see the pride they have in themselves when performing at their best. Not many people will push themselves to the limit, but when encouraged to do so, most achieve a level of satisfaction beyond expectation and begin to understand why I/we do the things we do.

So maybe it's taken you a while, but I do hope the speaker project has spurred you on with the confidence to march to the beat of your own drum, as appears to have good rhythm :)

Pharos

21-10-2020, 22:42

Seven years with BT was the worst experience of my life job wise.

I am not a graduate, but was the most qualified out of 34 people, and despised for it. Those experiences showed me that very intellectually incompetent people can thrive in large organisations, and blatantly so, and will do all they can to sabotage any aspiration one has to progress.

Finding oneself, and becoming inner directed (directing oneself), as opposed to outer directed (accepting the dictums of others), is a force majore, and ultimately very liberating after the fear has gone.

Yes, it's taken a while, and I am at peace with myself as opposed to self loathing and low self esteem, but the loss of what I could have been, and maybe achieved is hard.

Arrogance can be a pre-emptive defence mechanism, as my Father taught me in childhood, it thus destroying all my confidence. I now realise that he is a weak man, and he used that to cope.

Having not seen him for 26 years he appeared at my front door in Oct '17, and proceeded to denigrate and deride me for two hours, and then say to me; "Of course you could have done a PhD"

I've always been an outsider, and had to read in depth on group psychology, particularly ontological security, largely because of group ridicule; the group will outcast an individual whom they feel is a threat.

DarrenHW

26-10-2020, 19:08

Pharos

26-10-2020, 23:13

I know where you’re coming from, I can’t remember a time when I didn’t have self image issues, but in all probability, this is most likely what makes us strive for perfection. Ignoring all advice from Johnny Mercer, I seem to have an uncanny ability to accentuate the negative. Whenever I experience something new, I’m inexorably drawn to its flaws. I guess this is because it’s the way I evaluate my own actions, constantly focusing on my mistakes whilst reluctantly accepting the successes.

Our origins and formative years are awash with competitive pressures; we can feel it all the way from very early on, though we may not recognise the pressure at the time.

It is also a fact of human existence that we tend to take for granted that which is OK, satisfactory or functioning correctly, and concentrate on the aspect which is causing problems - that is what needs to be altered or corrected, and we focus on that, not on what is working.

The whole of the measurement of me in jobs has been on being adequate, up to the accepted standard, and no attention given to anything better than required. In an Amway lecture they said "You get what your job's worth, not what you're worth".

In all honesty, I’ve never been 100% satisfied with anything I’ve done. Sometimes this is though a stupid mistake on my behalf, which I find very hard to forgive, but when I’ve performed to the best of my ability and as long as I’ve improved upon my last effort, I find solace in the adage that practice makes perfect, and hope that one day I will reach the targets I set for myself.

We can go on forever making things better, but the context of any aspect is vital. I once measure the diameter of a bolt on my BMW motorbike which was holding a cantilever cable operating the clutch, and it was within one micron.
Lovely, but not needed to be so good.

Making a move to construction was probably the best thing I’ve ever done for my emotional wellbeing. Having something real and tangible to show for my efforts at the end of a day gives me a greater sense of achievement than I ever felt in IT. Working in IT, you will (generally) receive the gratitude of your client for resolving a problem / creating a solution, with construction you’re helping someone fulfil their dreams and 99% of the time they’re so pleased with the bigger picture they place little value on the bumps in the road along the way, which does help keep things in perspective.

My personal view is that IT is generally not of high intellectual rigour, but any failings can cause chaos, and so a customer will be very relieved when a glitch is corrected. On the other hand producing a complete item for which one is fully responsible allows the possibility to create a high quality fully working product.

Pharos

26-10-2020, 23:14

SorryI haven't mastered correctly inserting my comments, there are more in the quote.

DarrenHW

27-10-2020, 18:19

Here it is in situ and fully loaded!

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50537271216_5d7d45a8b2_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jZNJ3m)

It comprises of ~70kg Beech, 60kg Slate and ~10kg Bamboo.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50537420312_da8cb1d81e_c.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2jZPumY)

I’m really happy with the look, especially how well the green of the slate works. I’m not sure how the lower left slate has come out lighter and I only realised once everything was hooked up, so now I’ve got to drag it out again, but it will give me something to do one quiet weekend afternoon. The only explanation I can think of, is that I missed that one with a coat of sealer, so hopefully hitting it again will bring it inline with the others.

The components on the middle shelf look a bit awkward. This is not helped by the placement of the slimmer Xbox beneath the Panny, but it had to go somewhere. The Oppo will be replaced by a Denon AVC-X3700H (if it ever arrives!) which will stand approximately 65mm taller, so hopefully (as this is what the shelf was designed around) this will be a more appropriate visual coupling.

What has completely surprised me, is that my equipment has never looked or sounded better than it does now. There has always been a muddiness to the sound of the Celestions which I have accepted as inherent to the speakers, as there are plenty of threads that describe them as so. I’m not for one moment suggesting I’ve resolved a 40 year old design flaw with this rack, but what I am saying is that a lot of what I’d assumed was the muddiness was purely down to poor component placement. There has been a massive improvement in clarity across the range, bass is cleaner, if a little lighter, vocals have less distortion/echo/glare and more accent/annunciation and the 3d effect of the soundstage has increased dramatically. These improvements are also obvious in the image sent from the Oppo/Panny/Xbox. The picture is more focused, resulting in better detail retrieval and a far greater sense of depth.

I should point out that all of this is in comparison to the makeshift way I’ve been housing my equipment, I do have Mana racks, but haven’t used them in the prescribed way for many years.

There are however some negatives:

The “twinkly bits” in some songs are not as obvious as they were. In the song “The News” by Carbon/Sliicon, there is a repetitive dinging of a bell that I’m used to being at the forefront of the mix, where as now it takes more of a back seat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QdAppzmnGsE&feature=youtu.be

The bass does seem to have taken on the timbre of timber. This is something I’ve experienced before when experimenting with the placement of timber in the system, most notably with the turn table. It’s not unpleasant, but it’s also not neutral. I had hoped the slate would overcome this, but it hasn’t and makes me wonder if I would have had a better, more neutral result if I’d used a harder timber such as Maple.

I’m also on the fence as to whether I’ve lost a bit of PRAT. I haven’t had a huge amount of time to spend listening to music since everything was setup and I was quite tired when I did so I’m holding judgement, but there didn’t seem to be the same urgency I’m used to hearing in some tracks. My system never really gets powered down and it had been powered off for a significant amount of time in the migration. I’d let everything warm up for a couple of hours, but maybe this offers some explanation. I feel I’m clutching at straws here and I should get a bit of time to better evaluate this weekend so I’ll report back.

Overall I am really happy with how this has turned out and I’ve enjoyed the project. The rack looks as I’d imagined it, but it is its efficacy as a rack that has exceeded my expectations. As previously mentioned, I’ve been messing around with CLD platforms for a while, but this has spurred me on to take it further. I'm really interested to find out if the Panny performs better directly on the rack or it's current platform, although if it does I'm going to have to get creative about what I do with it and the Xbox...

Marco

27-10-2020, 22:42

Looks good, mate! But may I ask an obvious question... Why is there nothing on top and everything crammed together on the first shelf?:hmm:

Furthermore, you say you're pleased with it (as indeed you should be in terms of how good it looks), yet you seem pretty critical of it, sonically... So it it doing it for you in that area, as you'd hoped, or not? Your review doesn't make that point entirely clear.

Personally, I think there's more to come with a spike and cup arrangement, as we discussed earlier, which from experience I'm confident will restore the "twinkly bits" you're missing, and add some more 'attack' and PRaT.

What will also help is using your Mana support, which the Panny is sat on, in the conventional way with some glass, or taking it out the equation completely, as it was never intended to be used that way, mate. Anyway, looking good, but defo more to come with some tweaks and finishing touches:cool:

Btw, I'd be interested in your thoughts on my Lentek thread (thought you might've commented already): https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?71174-Rebuilding-and-modifying-my-Lentek-head-amp

Marco.

Pharos

27-10-2020, 23:46

Firstly your penetration of the verticals by the horizontals is very much similar to my choice - one third in.

I am not at all sure about the design intent with regard to the relative masses and implementation of them for sound quality.

DarrenHW

28-10-2020, 17:30

Looks good, mate! But may I ask an obvious question... Why is there nothing on top and everything crammed together on the first shelf?:hmm:

Thank you. I've crammed everything onto the first shelf because I don't want anything on the top shelf. I want to clean up the aesthetics of the whole AV system and make it a less dominant feature of the room. If I had something pretty to display I would have considered placing it on top, but the half depth Panny or the Xbox would just look silly and I don't want to see all the cables that will eventually be spewing out the back of the Denon.

Furthermore, you say you're pleased with it (as indeed you should be in terms of how good it looks), yet you seem pretty critical of it, sonically... So it it doing it for you in that area, as you'd hoped, or not? Your review doesn't make that point entirely clear.

Personally, I think there's more to come with a spike and cup arrangement, as we discussed earlier, which from experience I'm confident will restore the "twinkly bits" you're missing, and add some more 'attack' and PRaT.

I'm still in two minds about it. It's an improvement in some respects but a downgrade in others. Attack (thank you, I think that's what I really meant by PRAT) for example does seem to have diminished and I'm not really sure that is a sacrifice I'm willing to make. On the other hand the removal of grunge around both audio and visual signals is a very welcome improvement.

The "twinkly bits" are something that have given me more pause for thought. The difference reminds me of moving from the Techie to the Garrard. As you know I primarily went for the Garrard because I favoured it's "drive" over the Techie, but in doing so it was at the expense of (amongst other things) the "twinkly bits". Reading up, the online consensus was that the high end was some what muted with the majority of idlers, so I put it down to this. However, when the Garrard was brought into play in was on the Target wall shelf, whereas the Techie was sited on the Mana which at the time was used conventionally (MDF & Glass). This makes me wonder how much of the loss was actually down to the Target. At the same time, it raises the question of whether in using the Mana the way I was (https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?70876-Fade-Away-and-Radiate visible in the third photo) whether I have been artificially drawing attention to the "twinkly bits" (there's surely got to be proper HiFi lingo for "twinkly bits")?

I've only had a brief listen, and as mentioned I was tired and the system wasn't at it's usual operating temperature, I'll spend some more time with it this weekend and will hopefully come up with a more concrete conclusion.

What will also help is using your Mana support, which the Panny is sat on, in the conventional way with some glass, or taking it out the equation completely, as it was never intended to be used that way, mate. Anyway, looking good, but defo more to come with some tweaks and finishing touches:cool:

The support is there to give the Panny some height and provide somewhere to hide the Xbox, this area will be subject to change and is where experimentation with coupling, isolation and further CLD will take place.

Btw, I'd be interested in your thoughts on my Lentek thread (thought you might've commented already): https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?71174-Rebuilding-and-modifying-my-Lentek-head-amp

Marco.

I did see it, then I saw Post #3 and just like seeing a floater in a swimming pool decided I'd give it some time to let the water clear.