View Full Version : Buyer / Seller protection on Art of Sound.
At what point after a sale does a faulty item sold in these classifieds cease to become the responsibility of the seller? If you purchased an item for a little under £700 and after 10 days it began to show a fault would you expect the seller to tell you to take it up with the manufacturer because the item which was sold to them ex demo making you the third owner is still under warranty.
As the seller of the item would you reimburse in full and take it up with the company you purchased from or just wash your hands of it.
We all buy and sell on this and other forums sometimes exchanging hundreds or thousands of pounds to people who don't really know because of a trust that all parties will act honourably.
in my book its as soon as you exchange money for the goods,just like real life auction houses,buyer beware etc. if the seller doesn't state it comes with a warranty or money back if not happy then don't expect one when there's a problem. its a cruel world out there.
lets turn it around,if you buy something second hand and sold as seen,how long do YOU think you can own it and not complain if something goes wrong with it?
willbewill
04-10-2020, 08:43
https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/your-rights-when-buying-second-hand-goods
Filterlab
04-10-2020, 08:48
It is in the buyer’s interest to fully check the item at the time of purchase and the seller’s responsibility to declare any faults. Once the sale has gone through (i.e. funds have been exchanged) it is in the buyer’s ownership.
Occasionally things go wrong with equipment, but rarely, and most things are cheap and easy to rectify, certainly with the level of knowledge and wealth of helpful people on here.
Buyer protection is generally a trade responsibility if a warranty is offered. The legal statutory requirement is 14 days even if an item is sold without a warranty I believe.
‘Caveat Emptor’ is the phrase that applies here. Almost every member on here is thoroughly knowledgable - whether buying or selling, we all know what equipment should sound like and how it operates.
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To reiterate AoS’s position; we are not responsible for any transactions, merely a platform to aid sellers and buyers - as is stated in our rules for posting (not that many ever read them of course :lol:)...
Under no circumstances do the administrators or moderators of this forum accept any responsibility for items or services bought, sold or traded through this forum.
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All goods are advertised at seller's risk. All goods are purchased at buyer's risk.
As it happens I bought an FM tuner from Germany on the 17th of July, and after several weeks of testing and making a better aerial, verified that the auto-scan did not stop at any stations.
The seller was very cooperative and accepted that this was so after I sent him a table of the aerial I/P levels with the new and old aerial, and stating that three other tuners found the original signal strength to be adequate to stop at stations, even with the old aerial.
He sent me a return scan label and I attached it to the re-packed tuner, my then leaving it as a DPD depot in Eastbourne. For four weeks he did not receive it, and DPD had lost it, but after much trouble with DPD it was finally located in a very wrong location, and it was then correctly sent to the seller, but I had to do days of chasing and admin work. Finally a refund on the 25th of September.
Within a day of delivery I had a Paypal refund, but there are three factors here, whether the seller is decent and honest, the often the ineffectiveness of courier services, and the inability to actually speak to someone at Paypal, three major potential obstacles.
Ok it seems I'm in the minority then silly me for thinking that this all worked on trust and the good nature of the members involved.
Everyone should really take note of this thread and never make friends and family payments on eBay.
So do we state in our sales listings that we do not accept any responsibility once cash has changed hands.
Wakefield Turntables
04-10-2020, 09:03
I've sold perfectly working goods in the past only to receive emails claiming that things were faulty only to be returned with the original gear in a state of complete disrepair. I don't sell big things now and insist on buyer pick-up where they can see the gear working. Perhaps we should get buyers and sellers to sign a disclaimer !?! Food for thought and it might stop some of the bullshit which happens.
Filterlab
04-10-2020, 09:04
...and never make friends and family payments on eBay....
So you purchased from eBay and not here? eBay has buyer protection you know.
...trust and the good nature of the members involved...
On here and TZ-UK (watch forum - item value similar territory), I've bought and sold literally hundreds of items. Never had a single problem or issue.
Perhaps we should get buyers and sellers to sign a disclaimer !?!
That would need to be a private agreement between each seller/buyer.
so this has happened on ebay then and nothing to do with the forum yes? why would you choose to make a payment on there using pay-pal F&F method? asking to have your pants pulled down doing that.
Filterlab
04-10-2020, 09:11
so this has happened on ebay then and nothing to do with the forum yes? why would you choose to make a payment on there using pay-pal F&F method? asking to have your pants pulled down doing that.
:lol:
Bought where? eBay
From Who? Seller on eBay, no problem
Paid by? Friends and Family .. oh dear, you lost all protection there I'm afraid, HOWEVER you might still be able to take the payment back IF it's funded by your credit card.
F&F IS retractable if you go about it the correct way.
Who insisted on F & F, if it was the seller then contact eBay as he's gone against eBay seller policy.
And I just love the attitude on here, all jumping on saying serves you right, jeez I've seen at least one of them crying blue murder cos they were gazumped!
Like to see if it happened to them if they'd take the 'serves you right' attitude.
Contact eBay.
Wakefield Turntables
04-10-2020, 09:21
:lol:
Yeah what he said.... :rfl:
I think the OP means PayPal and not eBay?
Buying (second hand goods) on ebay I expect them to be faulty/not as described. If it turns up and all is fine then I'm surprised and pleased. I never buy anything expensive (over £200) on ebay though so if it turns out bad I can just write it off. Can't be arsed with trawling through some 'dispute process'. Life's too short.
Bought a load of stuff on here, never had a problem so far in ten years.
I think the OP means PayPal and not eBay?Oh well, they're fucked then, although claiming back F & F might still be a possibility by contacting card company or bank. Be warned anyone who thinks F&F is non refundable, although time constraints would apply [emoji6]
Name and shame too to avoid any others on here getting caught by same seller.
At what point after a sale does a faulty item sold in these classifieds cease to become the responsibility of the seller? If you purchased an item for a little under £700 and after 10 days it began to show a fault would you expect the seller to tell you to take it up with the manufacturer because the item which was sold to them ex demo making you the third owner is still under warranty.
As the seller of the item would you reimburse in full and take it up with the company you purchased from or just wash your hands of it.
We all buy and sell on this and other forums sometimes exchanging hundreds or thousands of pounds to people who don't really know because of a trust that all parties will act honourably.
if it went faulty 10 days after you got it that's not the seller's problem. He might still do something about it, but that's up to him. He's not under any obligation legally or, IMO, morally.
Stuff fails, could be ten years after you got it or ten days. It's the risk you take buying second-hand, offset by the fact that you are saving a bundle of money compared to buying it new.
Oh well, they're fucked then, although claiming back F & F might still be a possibility by contacting card company or bank. Be warned anyone who thinks F&F is non refundable, although time constraints would apply [emoji6]
Name and shame too to avoid any others on here getting caught by same seller.
Well said and yes we need to know who the seller is ?
Actually, seller sounds like Emporium HiFi methods dealing with repairs
And I just love the attitude on here, all jumping on saying serves you right, jeez I've seen at least one of them crying blue murder cos they were gazumped!
Like to see if it happened to them if they'd take the 'serves you right' attitude.
Contact eBay.
perhaps i was a bit aggressive but my mixing with brighton antique dealers has taught me well. my morals and old school thinking apply when im selling something. like i said its a cruel world out there.
perhaps i was a bit aggressive but my mixing with brighton antique dealers has taught me well. my morals and old school thinking apply when im selling something. like i said its a cruel world out there.I hear ye, that'll toughen anyone up.
I'm much the same, HOWEVER I go by treat everyone by how you'd like to be treated yourself.. just don't cross me [emoji6][emoji23][emoji23]
yep me too,a good attribute.
I have sold items i considered to be fully as described and then been told of a fault post sale. I have always gone out of my way to resolve the problem including refunding the full purchase price and return postage. I always clean. test and package items well so problems are very rate.
I have bought items that have been poorly packed and a few that had faults. A couple stick out, a pre amp that didnt work on one input, that cost hundreds to repair and took ages but the seller, aos member but transaction not through aos, was 200% supportive all the way.
Another many years ago on avforums where the power amp protection circuit was bad, seller and mods decided i had broken the amp using the wrong cables!!! If i had paid more attention to the sellers photos i would have seen the fault.
Ultimately it is buyer/seller both beware but most forum users have goid ethics and a reputation to maintain
Filterlab
04-10-2020, 09:40
yep me too,a good attribute.
Me three.
I always like to give a buyer of my goods absolutely all the info, highlighting any flaws, and a full dem if applicable prior to purchase. I sold my B&W speakers this week on eBay. Buyer drove from Kent to collect; I had them playing for him to listen to, showed him the marks, told him why I was selling them, explained how they like to be partnered, gave him all the accessories and helped him into the car with them.
He was delighted. It’s how I like to buy so it’s how I sell.
There are countless great members on here, as this searchable thread attests to:
https://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?2080-Feedback-section-for-buyers-and-sellers
No it didn’t happen on eBay I meant to put PayPal apologies for confusion The item was purchased on here and after using no more than 5 times and owning it for just over one week it now doesn’t work.
Even if I had gone to the sellers home and tested it it’s doubtful that this issue would have come up during a demo.
Filterlab
04-10-2020, 09:46
That’s darn frustrating. What was the item? If you let people know, someone may be able to help you with it.
Loads of the chaps on here have armfuls of kit laying about and literally thousands of cubic feet of combined knowledge. :)
walpurgis
04-10-2020, 09:51
I had an ebay buyer who wasn't happy, although what he'd bought was fine. I think he'd just bought something unsuitable. He messaged me saying "what are you going to do to stop me leaving negative feedback?", I pointed out that by threatening to do so he had breached ebay policy and could have his account suspended. Never heard any more! :) Had he been polite, I'd probably have refunded him. Git!
I’ve just contacted one of the manufacturers representatives to see if anything can be done regarding a warranty but I’m not sure if any warranty is transferable yet although as I’m the third owner buying it from someone who bought it ex dem I’m doubtful. I’m not at the point of naming and shaming yet let’s see what the manufacturer says.
I thought you had 180 days for a refund if you pay with Paypal (not F&F of course) and the item is faulty - rather a generous guarantee I must admit especially for second hand electronics. But if you buy on Ebay and pay with Paypal I think it's different - 30 or 45 days only? As I'm not 100% sure (and probably many others are uncertain) maybe someone in the know could clarify.
I thought you had 180 days for a refund if you pay with Paypal (not F&F of course) and the item is faulty - rather a generous guarantee I must admit especially for second hand electronics. But if you buy on Ebay and pay with Paypal I think it's different - 30 or 45 days only? As I'm not 100% sure (and probably many others are uncertain) maybe someone in the know could clarify.You do but this is a private sale
A few comments:
1. Most sellers on AoS, being enthusiasts and who have an interest in not damaging their reputation on the forum, are honest and trustworthy;
2. Second hand goods, by their very nature, can fail after sale whether one week after sale or several years - stuff happens;
3. One can't assume that if equipment fails after sale that the seller knew or ought to have known it would fail and that he was therefore acting in an untrustworthy way;
4. Vibrations from transportation of equipment whether by car or post can cause faults to occur which is not the fault of the seller or the buyer unless badly packaged by the seller;
5. in most cases equipment purchased on the forum is considerably cheaper than if purchased from a dealer (or the well known aucton site) who charges more to cover his risk of having to make a repair or make a refund, so as a buyer you make your own choice about where you buy an item with knowledge of the relative risks;
6. if despite the above a buyer still has concerns about potential problems then he should factor that concern into the price he pays for the equipment and should avoid buying expensive equipment to reduce the potential financial loss.
Touch wood I have never had any problems with sales or purchases from this great site where members are in virtually all cases helpful, informative and trustworthy without, in contrast with the rest of our nanny state, there needing to be a set of prescribed rules of behaviour to which we should adhere.
That’s all fine until your potentially almost £700 out of pocket and it’s very easy to be understanding when it’s not your money. I go out in all weathers and lay bricks to earn that money I didn’t fall from the sky.
At what point after a sale does a faulty item sold in these classifieds cease to become the responsibility of the seller? If you purchased an item for a little under £700 and after 10 days it began to show a fault would you expect the seller to tell you to take it up with the manufacturer because the item which was sold to them ex demo making you the third owner is still under warranty.
As the seller of the item would you reimburse in full and take it up with the company you purchased from or just wash your hands of it.
We all buy and sell on this and other forums sometimes exchanging hundreds or thousands of pounds to people who don't really know because of a trust that all parties will act honourably.
I'd be inclined after 10 days to have it repaired at sellers cost. or if he wants it back to return for refund.. probably pay for postage tho would be fair.
After saying that I guess there may be other factors.
StingRay
04-10-2020, 11:23
I'd be inclined after 10 days to have it repaired at sellers cost. or if he wants it back to return for refund.. probably pay for postage tho would be fair.
After saying that I guess there may be other factors.
Your contract is with the seller not the manufacturer. Many retailers try this on but it the seller that is responsible under UK law.
The issue with used goods is not so clear and proving when the fault started. Most sellers on AoS maybe honorable but not all are, I was reading a report only yesterday about one bad experience.
Mike Reed
04-10-2020, 11:45
Actually, seller sounds like Emporium HiFi methods dealing with repairs
They are just down the road from me, and although there's comment from time to time, I've not heard about a repairs problem. As I have an Italian piece distributed by them, I'm a little concerned by your comment, despite the item being quite reliable for years.
There was really no need for any of this all the seller had to do was offer to have the faulty psu part of the deck shipped back to the dealer he bought it from under warranty I would have parcelled it up and sent it for him all he had to do was handle communications. Instead his attitude was and is it's now not his problem end of.
hifinutt
04-10-2020, 12:04
A few comments:
1. Most sellers on AoS, being enthusiasts and who have an interest in not damaging their reputation on the forum, are honest and trustworthy;
2. Second hand goods, by their very nature, can fail after sale whether one week after sale or several years - stuff happens;
3. One can't assume that if equipment fails after sale that the seller knew or ought to have known it would fail and that he was therefore acting in an untrustworthy way;
4. Vibrations from transportation of equipment whether by car or post can cause faults to occur which is not the fault of the seller or the buyer unless badly packaged by the seller;
5. in most cases equipment purchased on the forum is considerably cheaper than if purchased from a dealer (or the well known aucton site) who charges more to cover his risk of having to make a repair or make a refund, so as a buyer you make your own choice about where you buy an item with knowledge of the relative risks;
6. if despite the above a buyer still has concerns about potential problems then he should factor that concern into the price he pays for the equipment and should avoid buying expensive equipment to reduce the potential financial loss.
Touch wood I have never had any problems with sales or purchases from this great site where members are in virtually all cases helpful, informative and trustworthy without, in contrast with the rest of our nanny state, there needing to be a set of prescribed rules of behaviour to which we should adhere.
agreed
StingRay
04-10-2020, 13:39
They are just down the road from me, and although there's comment from time to time, I've not heard about a repairs problem. As I have an Italian piece distributed by them, I'm a little concerned by your comment, despite the item being quite reliable for years.
Not far from me either, never had any dealings with them, their reputation is a bit mixed.
StingRay
04-10-2020, 13:43
There was really no need for any of this all the seller had to do was offer to have the faulty psu part of the deck shipped back to the dealer he bought it from under warranty I would have parcelled it up and sent it for him all he had to do was handle communications. Instead his attitude was and is it's now not his problem end of.
Which manufacturer is it?
There was really no need for any of this all the seller had to do was offer to have the faulty psu part of the deck shipped back to the dealer he bought it from under warranty I would have parcelled it up and sent it for him all he had to do was handle communications. Instead his attitude was and is it's now not his problem end of.
Strictly speaking he's right, it was working when you received it, fault later is your problem not his. On the flip side if it isn't going to cost him anything but a little time and effort you'd think he'd enter into the spirit of things and help out. But it's not for us to make other people's moral decisions for them.
Yes but the thing is I wouldn’t do that if someone gave me close to £700 for something that stopped functioning properly after just 10 days stopped working then all good conscience I couldn’t just say tuff luck I’m keeping your money and I can tell you this for sure a if you Publicly agreeing that it’s ok to do that may well struggle to sell anything on these forums I for one wouldn’t buy a £5 cable from you.
Yes but the thing is I wouldn’t do that if someone gave me close to £700 for something that stopped functioning properly after just 10 days stopped working then all good conscience I couldn’t just say tuff luck I’m keeping your money and I can tell you this for sure a if you Publicly agreeing that it’s ok to do that may well struggle to sell anything on these forums I for one wouldn’t buy a £5 cable from you.
Whether it is okay to do that or not is up to the individual. They're certainly not obliged to do anything and that is the point I was making.
What I would do is irrelevant but if you must know then I would've either have helped out with the warranty return or just refunded you.
You buy second hand you take a chance in exchange for saving 50% or more on the new price. You don't want to take a chance, pay the price for a new one.
StingRay
04-10-2020, 14:12
Well if seller won’t play ball then you could see if the manufacturer will fix it under warranty or do it yourself.
Pigmy Pony
04-10-2020, 14:29
Well if seller won’t play ball then you could see if the manufacturer will fix it under warranty or do it yourself.
That sounds like a plan - contact the manufacturer. You could very likely find that they have a better moral compass than the turd you bought it off.
There was really no need for any of this all the seller had to do was offer to have the faulty psu part of the deck shipped back to the dealer he bought it from under warranty I would have parcelled it up and sent it for him all he had to do was handle communications. Instead his attitude was and is it's now not his problem end of.
Obviously we don't know the whole story and there is always two sides to these things but on the face of it that really is poor form mate.
I bought a tuner from a guy on here a few years ago, think it was a tuner, anyway it turned out to faulty and the guy took it back and refunded me in full and I would do exactly the same if I sell stuff that ends up faulty, I couldn't keep £700 of someone's money if something I sold turned out the be faulty after ten days, at the end of the day you take the thing back and get it repaired then resell it.
Whether it is okay to do that or not is up to the individual. They're certainly not obliged to do anything and that is the point I was making.
What I would do is irrelevant but if you must know then I would've either have helped out with the warranty return or just refunded you.
You buy second hand you take a chance in exchange for saving 50% or more on the new price. You don't want to take a chance, pay the price for a new one.
I'd be at the guy's door demanding my money back no way would I take a £700 hit on anything for anyone.
I'd be at the guy's door demanding my money back no way would I take a £700 hit on anything for anyone.
Covid restriction applying of course :whistle:
Well the faulty unit was a Rega Neo and I've spoken to Paul Darwin of Rega over on pfm and he has given me a fix to try and told me to keep him updated so that at least looks promising.
I'd be at the guy's door demanding my money back no way would I take a £700 hit on anything for anyone.
But what's your cut off? It fails after 10 days, okay, what if it fails after a month? Does he still owe you a refund? What about after a year? You're still £700 out.
StingRay
04-10-2020, 18:26
It won’t be £700 to get it fixed anyway, might even get it done under warranty.
But what's your cut off? It fails after 10 days, okay, what if it fails after a month? Does he still owe you a refund? What about after a year? You're still £700 out.
Depends on whether it was a 'known' fault.
I sold a guy on Ebay a second hand gas valve (boiler spare) for £30 and three years later he came back looking for a refund saying the valve was faulty so I told him to do one but if the guy had come back after a month or so I'd have given him his money back.
I also sold a guy in Holland an Arcam CD23T for £400 and he got in touch to say that one of the digital outs didn't work, I had no idea about that as I never used it anyway the guy had the CDP player repaired locally and i paid the repair cost which was 60euros but if I had told that guy to do one then you can bet your life he would have opened a case with ebay and PayPal.
It's really all about being reasonable isn't it?
Landloper
04-10-2020, 19:16
I'd be at the guy's door demanding my money back no way would I take a £700 hit on anything for anyone.
An understandable sentiment, but you wouldn't have any grounds for redress if you bought through the classifieds here because all private sales conducted on AoS are done entirely at the risk of the parties involved. This is set out under the PLEASE READ! Current rules for selling in private classifieds.... on the Private Exhibitions page:
'All goods are advertised at seller's risk. All goods are purchased at buyer's risk.'
Every buyer and seller is free to enter into such exchanges without consulting the terms under which the sale will proceed, but I would strongly urge anyone thinking of buying or selling to read and reflect upon the possible ramifications of buying and selling under such rules. Most buyers and sellers on AoS seem honourable and fair as far as I can tell. Sadly, that being so in no wise means that every buyer and every seller will behave as the majority do.
Depends on whether it was a 'known' fault.
If it's faulty already and the seller knows but doesn't declare it then that's just straight up dishonest.
I don't get the impression that is the situation here though. But not helping out with the warranty repair is a bit harsh IMO.
Generally speaking, all the seller can do is thoroughly test it. If he ships it working and it arrives working then he's done all he can reasonably do. Everything will fail eventually, if it's say ten years old and has had ten years of use it might blow tomorrow, or next year, or do another ten.
I don't see why the seller should be held hostage to fortune like that. You buy second hand then you accept there's no warranty and that although it is working today it might blow tomorrow and that's just the chance you take. I've bought a ton of kit used and sometimes you don't get long before it fails. I've not gone back to the previous owners and told them it's their responsibility because, frankly, it just isn't.
I agree it is about being reasonable but that cuts both ways. If the seller acted in good faith and needs the money to pay the rent (which might be a reason for sale) you can see how he might not be motivated to refund. Or even able to refund.
This has been a lesson learned I will not pay for goods through PP family friends unless I know the person involved and I will be asking for clarification as what will happen if goods become faulty I think 14 days is more than reasonable time to expect a seller to refund or at least pay for repair.
The thing that really angered me is that I already had the exact same PSU on another item so I put it up for sale and the seller I'm having the issue with later insinuated that I had sold his working unit and was passing a faulty one of as his.
I can be a bit thick sometimes but there are things called serial numbers one which clearly relates to a unit I bought 4 or 5 months ago on eBay clearly seen in the listing and another whose serial number matches the one sold to me by this seller. Then when I told him to stop digging himself a hole and to do the right thing he accused me of threatening him and stopped all contact with me.
Well the faulty unit was a Rega Neo and I've spoken to Paul Darwin of Rega over on pfm and he has given me a fix to try and told me to keep him updated so that at least looks promising.
If you try this fix yourself (and it does not rectify the fault) then that is the end of the road for any assistance by the seller...isn't it?
ianlenco
05-10-2020, 07:39
The OP said it was bought through these classifieds, hence the title of this thread. This is always a difficult one. If you sell something and the buyer tells you he received it in good order and it's working fine then you'd assume that's the end of the transaction. However, after that the buyer tells you it has developed a fault that's where the problems start. Who's to say the buyer hasn't damaged/misused the item? Awkward.
StingRay
05-10-2020, 07:50
If you try this fix yourself (and it does not rectify the fault) then that is the end of the road for any assistance by the seller...isn't it?
Looks like that the seller has already done that. Rega are pretty good at helping out, they were on another forum I used to use.
A new Rega Neo PSU is £236, so it's not £700.
Looks like that the seller has already done that. Rega are pretty good at helping out, they were on another forum I used to use.
A new Rega Neo PSU is £236, so it's not £700.
Pretty sure i've read somewhere that there is an inherent fault with those PSU's, I'm sure there was a thread on here or on PFM about someone having issues with the PSU bought new.
The thing that really angered me is that I already had the exact same PSU on another item so I put it up for sale and the seller I'm having the issue with later insinuated that I had sold his working unit and was passing a faulty one of as his.
I can be a bit thick sometimes but there are things called serial numbers one which clearly relates to a unit I bought 4 or 5 months ago on eBay clearly seen in the listing and another whose serial number matches the one sold to me by this seller. Then when I told him to stop digging himself a hole and to do the right thing he accused me of threatening him and stopped all contact with me.
I'd definitely be at his door mate that is poor form really poor form. I think that you should contact a mod about this and if they agree you should name the guy as no doubt other people will buy stuff from him so you might save someone from similar problems.
BTW, the forums are full of dealers masquerading as private sellers and I've no doubt the mods on the various forums know who they are, there's one or two pretty blatant dealers on PFM.
I'm not saying those dealers/private sellers are dodgy BTW just that there's a few of them cutting about here, PFM, The Wam and AV forums.
I
I agree it is about being reasonable but that cuts both ways. If the seller acted in good faith and needs the money to pay the rent (which might be a reason for sale) you can see how he might not be motivated to refund. Or even able to refund.
No that's called fraud or stealing.
An understandable sentiment, but you wouldn't have any grounds for redress if you bought through the classifieds here because all private sales conducted on AoS are done entirely at the risk of the parties involved. This is set out under the PLEASE READ! Current rules for selling in private classifieds.... on the Private Exhibitions page:
'All goods are advertised at seller's risk. All goods are purchased at buyer's risk.'
Every buyer and seller is free to enter into such exchanges without consulting the terms under which the sale will proceed, but I would strongly urge anyone thinking of buying or selling to read and reflect upon the possible ramifications of buying and selling under such rules. Most buyers and sellers on AoS seem honourable and fair as far as I can tell. Sadly, that being so in no wise means that every buyer and every seller will behave as the majority do.
I've run my own business for 30 years and I know how to deal with dodgy bstards you either confront them straight up at their house place of business or you go legal, which is a waste of time in Scotland, or you forget it 'for the time being' what you don't do is let them away with ripping you off.
No that's called fraud or stealing.
No it isn't. You seem to have overlooked the 'in good faith' bit. The o/p has absolutely no recourse in Law because caveat emptor applies.
If the seller knew it was faulty and sold it anyway then that's a different matter. But that has not been established. Plus it worked fine for ten days after receipt.
If you bought a car in a private sale and drove round in it for ten days and then the gearbox went do you think you could take it back and demand a refund? No you can't. If it broke down when you'd only gone fifty feet from the house were you bought it you still have zero legal right to a refund.
'Doing the decent thing' is a different matter. If it was me I'd have just refunded but then I can afford to take the hit. Not everyone can. It's easy to do the decent thing if you can afford to. Maybe this bloke can't and given he's under no legal obligation to do so then he clearly isn't going to.
StingRay
05-10-2020, 10:42
Pretty sure i've read somewhere that there is an inherent fault with those PSU's, I'm sure there was a thread on here or on PFM about someone having issues with the PSU bought new.
If that is the case then I would expect Rega to sort it out.
StingRay
05-10-2020, 10:44
No that's called fraud or stealing.
Not if he sold the item and it was not faulty, the fault only seems to have happened 10 days later.
How can that be fraud?
Anyway it is just an external PSU, worst case is to get it repaired, probably will be less than £100.
Pretty sure i've read somewhere that there is an inherent fault with those PSU's, I'm sure there was a thread on here or on PFM about someone having issues with the PSU bought new.
https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=119913
https://forums.whathifi.com/threads/rega-6-neo-tt-psu-record-stops-playing-intermittently.112693/
https://forums.whathifi.com/threads/rega-neo-psu-problems.111191/
buying second hand from a non retail supplier(ie a private sale) has its risks. As said it worked for 10 days so the seller can be excused to have thought it was done and dusted. sold! someone elses issue if anything goes wrong. Its unfortunate it happened so early but im guessing its possible the money was respent.
Legally he has no recourse it appears.. going to his door and starting a fight will likely make matters worse.
The guy imo probably should have done his best to help get the psu repaired/replaced, but as said he is not legally obligated; only morally.
I'd definitely be at his door mate that is poor form really poor form. I think that you should contact a mod about this and if they agree you should name the guy as no doubt other people will buy stuff from him so you might save someone from similar problems.
BTW, the forums are full of dealers masquerading as private sellers and I've no doubt the mods on the various forums know who they are, there's one or two pretty blatant dealers on PFM.
I'm not saying those dealers/private sellers are dodgy BTW just that there's a few of them cutting about here, PFM, The Wam and AV forums.
It is not difficult (with all of the info now in this thread) to work out what transaction this thread is about.
If you check the consumer rights act, the seller is under no obligation to disclose any faults, but misrepresenting goods is not allowed.
If he is not willing to come to an agreement, you only have three choices.
1. Alternative dispute resolution
2. Small claims court
3. Take it on the chin and put it down to experience.
It is not difficult (with all of the info now in this thread) to work out what transaction this thread is about.
If you check the consumer rights act, the seller is under no obligation to disclose any faults, but misrepresenting goods is not allowed.
If he is not willing to come to an agreement, you only have three choices.
1. Alternative dispute resolution
2. Small claims court
3. Take it on the chin and put it down to experience.
It's a private sale so the Consumer Rights Act isn't applicable. Although if the seller misrepresents in a private sale then that is grounds for legal recourse. But in this situation it doesn't look like the seller misrepresented. If he didn't that rules out option 2).
Neversmileatacrocodile
05-10-2020, 11:16
Though this thread is headed up buyer seller protection, that's not really the issue. Protection is generally understood to be about protecting the buyer from a seller who fails to perform his side of the contract. Here, the seller supplied the goods, and they worked.
What the OP is asking for is breakdown cover under a warranty. Buying from a shop, even secondhand, and that's a reasonable request. But in a private sale of used goods? Not unless the seller explicitly assumes responsibility. And that would perhaps be unwise given that the seller has no control or visibility of the way in which the buyer handles the goods.
Having said that, the seller's reported behaviour seems grudging and unhelpful - something one wouldn't wish to see in an online 'community'.
willbewill
05-10-2020, 11:26
It's a private sale so the Consumer Rights Act isn't applicable. Although if the seller misrepresents in a private sale then that is grounds for legal recourse. But in this situation it doesn't look like the seller misrepresented. If he didn't that rules out option 2).
Exactly. Under the Act, a private seller is only obliged to provide goods “as described”.
So as long as the description has not been misleading, you do not have the right to ask for your money back if you are unhappy with what you have bought or if there is a problem with the item.
Having bought and sold a lot of gear online over the years I've had mostly good experiences and usually if something goes wrong the seller will try their best to help, which is what I try t do when selling. Things only tend to breakdown with when the buyer or seller's attitude is hostile.
However these are difficult days and who knows what other stress the buyer or seller may be under.
walpurgis
05-10-2020, 12:17
I regard Hi-Fi purchases from private sellers the same way as I would with buying used cars.
I regard Hi-Fi purchases from private sellers the same way as I would with buying used cars.
Very much doubt it, with a car purchase you can RPI the car for buttons which will tell you if it's been an insurance write off or has certain insurance conditions attached to it and you can also check the MOT online along with reported milage and if it's being sold on Autotrader the advert will tell you most of this information especially the insurance status of the car.
There is absolutely no comparison with buying hifi gear unless of course you are not really that bothered about the car or the hifi gear being dodgy in which case fair enough.
I suspect that the seller didn't want to refund the entire purchase of the TT and the PSU, presumably that's what the buyer wanted, a full refund, and who can blame him?
The point I'm making here is that if the seller needed the funds from the sale for 'whatever' reason ie rent or mortgage payments, debt essentially, then the motivation to get rid of something quickly and faulty is clearly fraud and stealing.
The police won't be interested clearly so the purchaser would have to go legal ie take the seller to court for a refund of the full amount which is a very simple process in England.
No it isn't. You seem to have overlooked the 'in good faith' bit. The o/p has absolutely no recourse in Law because caveat emptor applies.
If the seller knew it was faulty and sold it anyway then that's a different matter. But that has not been established. Plus it worked fine for ten days after receipt.
If you bought a car in a private sale and drove round in it for ten days and then the gearbox went do you think you could take it back and demand a refund? No you can't. If it broke down when you'd only gone fifty feet from the house were you bought it you still have zero legal right to a refund.
'Doing the decent thing' is a different matter. If it was me I'd have just refunded but then I can afford to take the hit. Not everyone can. It's easy to do the decent thing if you can afford to. Maybe this bloke can't and given he's under no legal obligation to do so then he clearly isn't going to.
BTW, I just did a forum search for a Rega Planar 6 and came across an advert for one for sale recently for £700 that seller sells an awful lot of gear on here and on PFM...
I’ve just contacted one of the manufacturers representatives to see if anything can be done regarding a warranty but I’m not sure if any warranty is transferable yet although as I’m the third owner buying it from someone who bought it ex dem I’m doubtful. I’m not at the point of naming and shaming yet let’s see what the manufacturer says.
That’s all fine until your potentially almost £700 out of pocket and it’s very easy to be understanding when it’s not your money. I go out in all weathers and lay bricks to earn that money I didn’t fall from the sky.
There was really no need for any of this all the seller had to do was offer to have the faulty psu part of the deck shipped back to the dealer he bought it from under warranty I would have parcelled it up and sent it for him all he had to do was handle communications. Instead his attitude was and is it's now not his problem end of.
Well the faulty unit was a Rega Neo and I've spoken to Paul Darwin of Rega over on pfm and he has given me a fix to try and told me to keep him updated so that at least looks promising.
Hopefully Rega will come back to you with a solution that works for you. Alternatively perhaps the dealer who sold the kit (including the Neo) may wish to help with the assistance of the original AoS member. Or perhaps try contacting the dealer direct? Sadly however many dealers only offer 3 months warranty on ex-dem items. Maybe the dealer in question here
offers more?
Seems such a shame that you are not able to use the TT system costing nearly £700 due to an item (part of the system) that only costs about £240 to replace new.
The point I'm making here is that if the seller needed the funds from the sale for 'whatever' reason ie rent or mortgage payments, debt essentially, then the motivation to get rid of something quickly and faulty is clearly fraud and stealing.
The police won't be interested clearly so the purchaser would have to go legal ie take the seller to court for a refund of the full amount which is a very simple process in England.
Except it didn't go faulty until ten days after the sale. There is absolutely no legal recourse unless it can be proven that there was a (presumably very intermittent) fault and that the seller knew about it when he put the deck up for sale. There is zero chance of proving that.
A private sale is not covered by the same laws as a commercial sale. If it were a commercial sale then it would be covered by the Consumer Rights Act 2015 and it would be up to the seller to prove it wasn't faulty when he sold it.
the loaf
05-10-2020, 15:03
Nightmare - well it looks like that now private sellers may have to state whether they are providing some sort of guarantee despite not being a shop . In 30 yrs of occasional buying/selling hifi it only happened once that an item (preamp) stopped working and the buyer came to me inferring this was 'my fault' in some way . I put down a boundary that this was used, He had checked it over/ had it demmed , I was not a shop and I did not hear from Him again.
walpurgis
05-10-2020, 15:21
There is absolutely no comparison with buying hifi gear
And I said I thought there was. You still part with money and take a chance.
gerlando
05-10-2020, 15:36
BTW, I just did a forum search for a Rega Planar 6 and came across an advert for one for sale recently for £700 that seller sells an awful lot of gear on here and on PFM...
There is no need to do a witch hunt.
I am the seller.
And I don't like your insinuations.
You don't know anything of the whole story.
I have been silent so far not to fuel controversy, but now that's enough.
I have been on this forum for ten years, I have sold dozens of item, never a problem, whoever bought from me knows that I have always sold quality and perfectly functional objects.
I have also bought several devices and have never complained.
I have always found quality and fairness.
The Planar 6 was purchased in July 2020 from Orange & Lemons in London (ex-demo with receipt and full warranty) and was obviously fully functional.
Price was £675 including fully insured shipment by UPS (£25)
After 10 days, Natara wrote to me saying that the NEO power supply had problems and that he wanted to return the deck to me and be refunded.
I explained to him that I could not accept returns after 10 days of use, and that the problem was quite common and can be solved by contacting Paul Darwin of Rega customer service.
See the following thread:
https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/rega-neo-problem.243390/
Note that Natara didn't seem interested in solving the problem, or having the item fixed, but in returning the object and be refunded.
Maybe he wasn't satisfied with the purchase, in fact after few days after receiving the Planar 6 he posted this thread on PFM:
https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/rega-planar-6-for-planar-8.246378/
StingRay
05-10-2020, 15:37
The police won't be interested clearly so the purchaser would have to go legal ie take the seller to court for a refund of the full amount which is a very simple process in England.
If the item was faulty when sold and can be proved then he has a case, otherwise it would not worth pursuing and the costs and expenses are just not worth it over a £236 new item and if he lost the case then even more money lost. I would put it down to experience and move on.
The item wasnt faulty when sold tho
The item wasnt faulty when sold tho
Really Grant? The guy posted a thread on PFM in which at least four people have faulty Neo PSUs one guy on that thread had two out of three faulty and the seller advised the buyer that it was an 'easy fix' ie switch the thing on and off for about twenty times.
Total nonsense, someone buys a nearly new TT and PSU for £700 and the seller tells him to do one and advises the buyer that he does the above then posts a thread in which intermittent faults with the PSU are being discussed, seriously?
At least Rega, reading that thread, are looking after their customers....
mad-moon
05-10-2020, 16:25
There is no need to do a witch hunt.
I am the seller.
And I don't like your insinuations.
You don't know anything of the whole story.
I have been silent so far not to fuel controversy, but now that's enough.
I have been on this forum for ten years, I have sold dozens of item, never a problem, whoever bought from me knows that I have always sold quality and perfectly functional objects.
I have also bought several devices and have never complained.
I have always found quality and fairness.
The Planar 6 was purchased in July 2020 from Orange & Lemons in London (ex-demo with receipt and full warranty) and was obviously fully functional.
Price was £675 including fully insured shipment by UPS (£25)
After 10 days, Natara wrote to me saying that the NEO power supply had problems and that he wanted to return the deck to me and be refunded.
I explained to him that I could not accept returns after 10 days of use, and that the problem was quite common and can be solved by contacting Paul Darwin of Rega customer service.
See the following thread:
https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/rega-neo-problem.243390/
Note that Natara didn't seem interested in solving the problem, or having the item fixed, but in returning the object and be refunded.
Maybe he wasn't satisfied with the purchase, in fact after few days after receiving the Planar 6 he posted this thread on PFM:
https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/rega-planar-6-for-planar-8.246378/
I've dealt with Mauro several times and have always found him to be honest, fair and a gentleman. I do not believe for one second, that Mauro would knowingly sell anything that had a fault... The problem lies in the fact that, this is a common fault with this particular unit, which Rega should be looking at, imho...Once the psu issue is sorted, which I'm pretty sure will be very soon..end of story..
I'm sure I would be pretty pissed off too, after ten days of owning a recently bought used item that went wrong, but hey..you pay your money and take your chance.. There is no wrong doing involved here...
Really Grant? The guy posted a thread on PFM in which at least four people have faulty Neo PSUs one guy on that thread had two out of three faulty and the seller advised the buyer that it was an 'easy fix' ie switch the thing on and off for about twenty times.
Total nonsense, someone buys a nearly new TT and PSU for £700 and the seller tells him to do one and advises the buyer that he does the above then posts a thread in which intermittent faults with the PSU are being discussed, seriously?
At least Rega, reading that thread, are looking after their customers....
this will not turn into a slanging match. people are entitled to there opinions on this and as you see there are a few different views. ive made some personal thoughts, but in doing that i have said that in my experience there are 2 sides to almost every story like this.
this thread will be getting moved soon as it should not really be in PE. i left it here so it got some viewings only and hence some opinions
StingRay
05-10-2020, 16:34
Really Grant? The guy posted a thread on PFM in which at least four people have faulty Neo PSUs one guy on that thread had two out of three faulty and the seller advised the buyer that it was an 'easy fix' ie switch the thing on and off for about twenty times.
Total nonsense, someone buys a nearly new TT and PSU for £700 and the seller tells him to do one and advises the buyer that he does the above then posts a thread in which intermittent faults with the PSU are being discussed, seriously?
At least Rega, reading that thread, are looking after their customers....
I would expect Rega to sort it out then. Rega are usually pretty good as I said earlier.
mad-moon
05-10-2020, 16:40
I would expect Rega to sort it out then. Rega are usually pretty good as I said earlier.
Well said Ray..It is a problem for REGA to sort out...
I would expect Rega to sort it out then. Rega are usually pretty good as I said earlier.
Just as well for the buyer then that Rega seem to be a really good company to deal with and look after their customers although their £236 PSUs do seem to be poor quality.
mad-moon
05-10-2020, 16:46
Really Grant? The guy posted a thread on PFM in which at least four people have faulty Neo PSUs one guy on that thread had two out of three faulty and the seller advised the buyer that it was an 'easy fix' ie switch the thing on and off for about twenty times.
Total nonsense, someone buys a nearly new TT and PSU for £700 and the seller tells him to do one and advises the buyer that he does the above then posts a thread in which intermittent faults with the PSU are being discussed, seriously?
At least Rega, reading that thread, are looking after their customers....
That thread wasn't posted by Mauro...and the guy who said switch it of and on a dozen times, not twenty , was Mr Darwin (Rega) himself''
"Phil, please be assured that we are looking into the issue that you have reported, which occurs in a very few NEO units in our experience.
It appears to be due to a build up of static in the switch if it has not been used for a period time.
Prior to a long term production solution a quick and simple fix is to activate the switch(s) vigorously about a dozen times to clean the contacts.
Please PM me with your experiences, best, PD."
The link to the thread was posted by the seller presumably to cover himself but all he's done is to confirm that there are ongoing problems with the Rega PSUs, per the thread, and his advice to the seller was to sort it himself re the advice in the thread however ultimately the OP in that thread had to have a new PSU from Rega ie the 'fix' didn't work.
Don't know about anyone else but I'd be effin ragin if someone sold me something for £700 and then told me to fix it myself by switching it on an off multiple times and no I'm not taking it back.
The seller might not have known the that 'his' PSU was faulty but he's clearly aware that there are issues with the PSUs.
I know you're a mate mate but c'mon that really isn't in good faith is it?
That thread wasn't posted by Mauro...and the guy who said switch it of and on a dozen times, not twenty , was Mr Darwin (Rega) himself''
"Phil, please be assured that we are looking into the issue that you have reported, which occurs in a very few NEO units in our experience.
It appears to be due to a build up of static in the switch if it has not been used for a period time.
Prior to a long term production solution a quick and simple fix is to activate the switch(s) vigorously about a dozen times to clean the contacts.
Please PM me with your experiences, best, PD."
mad-moon
05-10-2020, 17:23
The link to the thread was posted by the seller presumably to cover himself but all he's done is to confirm that there are ongoing problems with the Rega PSUs, per the thread, and his advice to the seller was to sort it himself re the advice in the thread however ultimately the OP in that thread had to have a new PSU from Rega ie the 'fix' didn't work.
Don't know about anyone else but I'd be effin ragin if someone sold me something for £700 and then told me to fix it myself by switching it on an off multiple times and no I'm not taking it back.
The seller might not have known the that 'his' PSU was faulty but he's clearly aware that there are issues with the PSUs.
I know you're a mate mate but c'mon that really isn't in good faith is it?
Yes he did get a new psu, but you fail to mention, that Rega fixed the faulty unit for him. The buyer of Mauros Rega TT has been steered towards Rega..and rightfully so.
You make a lot of assumptions Tony.... I only know Mauro as someone I've purchased gear from, and he from me and he is not my mate, as you put it...You also state, he knew about the issue with this psu, maybe he did, but does that mean the unit he was selling, had an issue, he knew about it and purposely withheld that information..I think not, I believe the guy has integrity... As it happens, it does have the issue which has been highlighted and I'm sure the problem is being dealt with now, if it isn't already sorted...If only Rega had used quality components, in the manufacture of the psu from the off.
You should never assume anything, nor make accusations, until you have heard both sides of a discussion.
Seriously, your saying that a person buys a nearly new TT & PSU and pays £700 for it by PPG and the PSU conks out or starts acting up with ten days of purchase and the buyer has to go and have the issues sorted by himself, are you seriously saying that is fine?
That is pish totally pish.
The buyer is entitled to his money back end of story.
The seller should have refunded the buyer in full then sorted the warranty issues out himself then, if he wanted to, re-sell the TT with a new PSU from Rega either purchased from them or from a warranty claim.
That above really is the crux of the matter, the buyer bought an almost new TT and it was faulty within ten days of purchase, the buyer shouldn't have to deal with this issue.
BTW, I've made no assumptions or accused anyone here but I'll tell you something I'd never buy anything from your pal.
Yes he did get a new psu, but you fail to mention, that Rega fixed the faulty unit for him. The buyer of Mauros Rega TT has been steered towards Rega..and rightfully so.
You make a lot of assumptions Tony.... I only know Mauro as someone I've purchased gear from, and he from me and he is not my mate, as you put it...You also state, he knew about the issue with this psu, maybe he did, but does that mean the unit he was selling, had an issue, he knew about it and purposely withheld that information..I think not, I believe the guy has integrity... As it happens, it does have the issue which has been highlighted and I'm sure the problem is being dealt with now, if it isn't already sorted...If only Rega had used quality components, in the manufacture of the psu from the off.
You should never assume anything, nor make accusations, until you have heard both sides of a discussion.
Filterlab
05-10-2020, 18:19
Thread is now closed, locked and moved to Critics Corner.
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