Cable Burn In

[icehockeyboy]

Assuming you acknowledge cables need burning in, and I assume it’s like asking how long is a piece of string, how long on average should speaker cables take to burn in?
As far as I can remember, I haven’t had to burn any in, possibly due to the fact that most, but not all, were pre owned, but I fancied trying some new,(to me) very reasonably priced ones, expecting something from them, a shimmering sparkly top end, which wasn’t there, so I assumed they needed burning in, although a very knowledgeable member here told me that the brand would not benefit from any burning in.
Thoughts and opinions please ladies and gentlemen.

[walpurgis]

There is nothing in cables to 'burn in'. No miraculous realignment of molecules or reconfiguration of atomic structure occurs, they remain as they were made. In my opinion of course, others may differ.

[Macca]

What Geoff said.

[CageyH]

I think that “cable burn in” is equal to the amount of time that your brain needs to get accustomed to the new sound of your system.

[walpurgis]

I think that “cable burn in” is equal to the amount of time that your brain needs to get accustomed to the new sound of your system.

Yup.

[struth]

Someone says he hears it; others feel the need to say they do too.. others, who are contrary say its bollocks.. pick your sides, draw your weapons of choice and fight it out. (but remember there is a shortage):ner:

[nonuffin]

I think that “cable burn in” is equal to the amount of time that your brain needs to get accustomed to the new sound of your system.

That is probably mostly true, but cables do burn in albeit very slightly. Signal cables less so due to their small current draw, which speaker and power cables have plenty of for the process. It isn't a "one off" process either, as a period of non-usage means they may need running in again. I had a mains power cord that did exactly that each time I used it.

What will never happen is a poor sounding cable transform into a great sounding cable like a flower bud opening up.

These days I don't obsess about it as much as I used to.

[icehockeyboy]

Thanks for the replies.
I notice that Nordost think cables do require burning in, any thoughts on why that would be? ��

[Macca]

Money?

[struth]

Money?

its true tho.. folk spent a grand of cables and they sound crap, or no better then to stop them wanting a refund, you say they need 200 hrs... by that time you have forgotten that they sounded crap as your used to them.

[walpurgis]

I had a mains power cord that did exactly that each time I used it.

:sofa:

[dave2010]

There is nothing in cables to 'burn in'. No miraculous realignment of molecules or reconfiguration of atomic structure occurs, they remain as they were made. In my opinion of course, others may differ.It all depends on whether the cables have been stroked over their thighs by Pacific Island virgins while reciting words from the Kama Sutra.

[Macca]

its true tho.. folk spent a grand of cables and they sound crap, or no better then to stop them wanting a refund, you say they need 200 hrs... by that time you have forgotten that they sounded crap as your used to them.

And don't forget the 'burn in' service - pay extra and they'll burn it in on their special burn-in machine thingy. It must all be real, why would they lie?

My favourite burn-in stories are the ones where the thing sounds terrible 'straight out the box', but then with (say) 40 hours on it, it starts to 'open up.' Then, at 100 hours, it sounds terrible again. but that only lasts 20 hours and then after that it's 'stabilised' and with a wonderful sound.

3 months later it's on eBay.

[icehockeyboy]

its true tho.. folk spent a grand of cables and they sound crap, or no better then to stop them wanting a refund, you say they need 200 hrs... by that time you have forgotten that they sounded crap as your used to them.

Great theory Grant!

[walpurgis]

I often burn my fingers making them. Does that count? :D


(if I wasn't so lazy, I'd have a bespoke cable business :))

[icehockeyboy]

The main problem I have with the cable is the fact that it’s colour means it disappears against the wall behind my speakers, so it means the wife loves it! :)

[Gazjam]

Craig,

For any new cable I put in I don't sweat nowadays, but I have heard changes with many cables I've put in my system.

Some cables seem affected more than others which is interesting.
Silver plated copper, ferinstance, seems to take a longer time than plain copper.
New solder connections, dialectric etc can change over time with varying voltage applied.
Metallurgy is a real thing, it's not voodoo or a belief system.

Even recently, I re-terminated my Morrow speaker cable with KLEI silver z-plugs, took a couple of weeks for the sound to settle down and bloom.
JUST the connections.
These were 1K speaker cables, and due to the naff terminations I wasn't hearing what they could do.

Like anything in this game, there's usually many variables that factor in and it's never black and white.

Just put your cables in and enjoy any improvements that come over time.
Trust your own ears mate.

[nonuffin]

The main problem I have with the cable is the fact that it’s colour means it disappears against the wall behind my speakers, so it means the wife loves it! :)

That answers your query in full methinks :lol:

[CageyH]

Craig,

For any new cable I put in I don't sweat nowadays, but I have heard changes with many cables I've put in my system.

Some cables seem affected more than others which is interesting.
Silver plated copper, ferinstance, seems to take a longer time than plain copper.
New solder connections, dialectric etc can change over time with varying voltage applied.
Metallurgy is a real thing, it's not voodoo or a belief system.

Even recently, I re-terminated my Morrow speaker cable with KLEI silver z-plugs, took a couple of weeks for the sound to settle down and bloom.
JUST the connections.
These were 1K speaker cables, and due to the naff terminations I wasn't hearing what they could do.

Like anything in this game, there's usually many variables that factor in and it's never black and white.

Just put your cables in and enjoy any improvements that come over time.
Trust your own ears mate.

But how does such a low voltage cause materials to change?

[Macca]

But how does such a low voltage cause materials to change?

There's no point asking for a scientific explanation because there isn't one. It's either due to some unknown unknown or it's the mind playing tricks combined with a less than rigorous testing procedure.

Either is possible, but one is far more likely than the other.

[brucew268]

In my experience some cables do "burn in" over time and some seem not to. Years ago I borrowed four sets of expensive speaker cables to audition over a holiday weekend and see if there was any difference, one set being new (Transparent Audio) and the others used demo stock. The Transparent Audio was all over the map sound wise. For a bit it seemed to have phase issues, then that went away and the bass was bloated, etc. After about 30 hours it seemed to settle and sound right. Even once settled, my partner and I both preferred the sound of one of the other cables, which happened to be the one I liked the looks of the least.

I ordered the preferred one (MIT) which came new and changed a little over the first couple days but not nearly as much as the Transparent Audio.

I too notice that after soldering work the sound in a component sometimes takes a few minutes to sound right, so I've gotten away from any critical listening immediately after a soldered modification.

[Gazjam]

There's no point asking for a scientific explanation because there isn't one. It's either due to some unknown unknown or it's the mind playing tricks combined with a less than rigorous testing procedure.

Either is possible, but one is far more likely than the other.


Onus on you Martin to say why that statement is true.
:D

[Macca]

Onus on you Martin to say why that statement is true.
:D

It's either true, or there is a third possibility I'm unaware of.

[Gazjam]

Here's a theory to consider:
No horse in this race, in my own setup with my own ears I hear what I hear, but you mentioned a third possibility?

Not mine, but this one doesn't seem unreasonable.
As I said a lot of variables and nothings really black and white.
Agree there can be a psychological component, hifi's rife with snake oil theories and those that take advantage of that for profit.

Just throwing this out there :)

"Breaking in" a cable has everything to do with the insulation - not the wire itself. The insulation or dielectric will absorb energy from the conductor when a current is flowing (music). This energy absorption causes the dielectric's molecules to re-arrange themselves from random to uniform order. When re-arranged the dielectric will absorb less energy and consequently cause less distortion. The cable is now broken-in and sound improves. To ensure the cable stays broken-in it must remain connected and the components left on. If no signal is present in the cable the molecules will re-arrange into a random state and break-in will have to be repeated. Length of break-in varies from 100-500 hours.

the preamp doesn't usually have to be energized, but the input that you have those "cooking" cables connected to needs to be selected in order for signal current to be traveling through the cables of interest. If there's no load termination at the end of those cables, then no signal current flows & hence no breakin is occuring.

[Clive197]

"Breaking in" a cable has everything to do with the insulation - not the wire itself. The insulation or dielectric will absorb energy from the conductor when a current is flowing (music)............


It’s for this reason that Audioquest attaches a battery to the dialectic of their higher range cables.

[brucew268]

Here's a theory to consider:
..."Breaking in" a cable has everything to do with the insulation - not the wire itself. The insulation or dielectric will absorb energy from the conductor when a current is flowing (music). This energy absorption causes the dielectric's molecules to re-arrange themselves from random to uniform order. When re-arranged the dielectric will absorb less energy and consequently cause less distortion. The cable is now broken-in and sound improves. To ensure the cable stays broken-in it must remain connected and the components left on. If no signal is present in the cable the molecules will re-arrange into a random state and break-in will have to be repeated. Length of break-in varies from 100-500 hours.

the preamp doesn't usually have to be energized, but the input that you have those "cooking" cables connected to needs to be selected in order for signal current to be traveling through the cables of interest. If there's no load termination at the end of those cables, then no signal current flows & hence no breakin is occuring.


For cables, I'd also heard from some no longer remembered sources that it had to do with the dielectric, though i'd not heard some of the specifics given here. I'd be curious who this quote is from... unless that would feed the cable wars.

[walpurgis]

For an insulator to 'absorb energy' it must conduct it, assuming we are talking about electrical energy. Or would this be some other sort of energy? Having a conductive insulator must surely be wrong.

[CageyH]

For an insulator to 'absorb energy' it must conduct it, assuming we are talking about electrical energy. Or would this be some other sort of energy? Having a conductive insulator must surely be wrong.

All insulators conduct. ;)

Just not very well.

[walpurgis]

All insulators conduct. ;)

Just not very well.

And all conductors insulate.

[Gazjam]

For cables, I'd also heard from some no longer remembered sources that it had to do with the dielectric, though i'd not heard some of the specifics given here. I'd be curious who this quote is from... unless that would feed the cable wars.


In this place....
Probably. :)

[brucew268]

Insulated with cotton, PVC, rubber, air, or teflon, the same wire sounds different. So we should be able to deduce even without measuring that the electrical field in the wire interacts with the dielectric and is affected by it.

[icehockeyboy]

Gazjam mentions how an inferior ( my word) connection affected the sound of his system resulting in him re-terminating with quality z plugs, anyone else been through a similar scenario?
I must admit I’d never, possibly stupidly, thought about the effect of inferior banana type plugs.

[ABCaudio]

We find that running in a cable has much to do with 1) getting used to the sound, and 2) temperature. It can be demonstrated quite well with an experiment.

Take a new cable, freeze it properly. Then dunk it into hot water. What just happened?

While frozen everything contracted, became as small as it physically could. When rapidly heated, everything will become as large as physically possible very quickly. You require a large temperature range.

Certain materials, principally the metallic core in the wire will expand most, causing some stretching of the insulators and therefore the dielectric. As everything settles back to its standard temperature, you'll have cable with air dielectric gaps in the insulation. This is broadly a run in cable.

This happens slowly over general use by virtue of electrical current, although it's unlikely to ever get wire as far electrically as it would via drastic temperature change.

A high current burn in machine gets a cable there as well, and also deals with the modest effects of electron transfer between different metals (eg copper>solder>gold), but if something sensible like gold plated plugs are used then this is a quick process even in everyday use. Other plating metals not so much.

Finally, Z plugs are a great idea. Low mass is always desirable, and the sprung plate creates a solid, large area surface contact. We suggest berrylium copper (springy and strong), with nickel then gold plated. You won't get better.

[icehockeyboy]

Thanks Colin,
A few people mentioned about getting used to the sound, but what about when you know that a certain aspect of the sound that you are used to isn’t there when you plumb in new cables, and after a week of ‘burning in’ isn’t there?
As in missing a sparkly crystal clear top end?
No amount of listening is likely to help you get used to the ‘new’ sound, if it isn’t there.

[ABCaudio]

Thanks Colin,
A few people mentioned about getting used to the sound, but what about when you know that a certain aspect of the sound that you are used to isn’t there when you plumb in new cables, and after a week of ‘burning in’ isn’t there?
As in missing a sparkly crystal clear top end?
No amount of listening is likely to help you get used to the ‘new’ sound, if it isn’t there.

We haven't ever made a cable where something is missing in that way... But in my personal experience things don't go missing. They hide in the mix, are presented differently, uplit or in shadow. In other words it is a matter of presentation and balance, rather than being there or not. Adjusting to that new balance does take some time and perception.

Best regards,

Alan

[icehockeyboy]

Sorry!
Thanks Alan!
Just mentioning a Colin Wonfor product, I remember getting some TQ blue from a member here, obviously run in, and they ‘sparkled’
A set of TQ Black replaced them, and I wasn’t that impressed, nothing wrong with them, they just didn’t do it for me.
Another set of Blues came my way, but they just didn’t ‘sparkle’ up top like the first set.
Why on earth would that be?

[ABCaudio]

Sorry!
Thanks Alan!
Just mentioning a Colin Wonfor product, I remember getting some TQ blue from a member here, obviously run in, and they ‘sparkled’
A set of TQ Black replaced them, and I wasn’t that impressed, nothing wrong with them, they just didn’t do it for me.
Another set of Blues came my way, but they just didn’t ‘sparkle’ up top like the first set.
Why on earth would that be?

I haven't any idea! It's either the product or your perception, can't be anything else.

As I remember the story, Blue was intended as a test, a proof of concept to run the extrusion tooling and insulation materials through their paces. It wasn't 'designed' in that sense, unlike the Black. I can't speak for material consistency throughout production.

[icehockeyboy]

Others on here echoed the sentiments about the Blue and Black in a similar way to me, so I’m thinking it’s not just my perception.

[Swann36]

Interesting thread

....i've today received my 1m Custom Lynx Neutrik 6.35mm TRS (stereo) Jack to 2x male XLR, which came in timely fashion for my MrSpeakers Ethers as the original cable has worn badly so i got Oidio cables to make me replacements which i had terminted with XLRs to go into the back of a BenchMark HP amp, but then i found that i wanted to use them with other amps hence the "adapter" ...

back to the thread ...with the 'new' adapter cable i can hear a difference from the direct XLR outs using the same BM amp but of course the 6.35mm out ....in that the sound is much "brighter" sounds like i've put the trebble up ... so i'm thinking does this new adapter cable need burning in or is it just the different outs i'm using ? then i come across this thread and the answer is probably ..... well i'm going to watch some movies through this set up before any critical music listening and by then my ears will of adjusted of course so i won't be able to tell the difference ..........or will i ??

[icehockeyboy]

I’ve removed the banana plugs I was using from the equation.

[Colin Wonfor]

All insulators cause electron drag, for a want of a different description.
This effects the high frequency and there edges and thus the rise and fall time, we see this as skin effect.
Air is best or space, Teflon is great, silk is great (long chain molecules) cotton and rubber not so good.
It also seems to be related to temperature i.e. melting or rapid electron movement.
These effect are very small and in theory we should not notice them, but I can't hear a dog whistle but I am aware it there.
I tried a experiment a long time ago using 40KHz .
Two transmitters/transducer were pointed at folk walking in a shopping mall. One fixed at 40KHz and the other FM at 40KHz and audio limited to 5KHz BW.
Aiming the cone the heads people, some heard on some occasion's the voice of Prof Bill saying "This is the voice of God" the reactions we got was very funny.
So to me that says we can hear the effect of higher than audio frequencies on some humans.
That was 20 yrs ago, now the mobile phone has destroyed humans to hear anything. I hate digital.:lol:

[icehockeyboy]

The top end is reappearing, burning in? Who knows.
Removal of cheap banana plugs? Who knows again.
What I do know is that it isn’t just me getting used to the sound, otherwise where has the top end come from that was missing when I first plumbed the cable in?

[walpurgis]

Your hearing varies and eventually you forget exactly what the previous set-up sounded like anyway,

[Macca]

The top end is reappearing, burning in? Who knows.
Removal of cheap banana plugs? Who knows again.
What I do know is that it isn’t just me getting used to the sound, otherwise where has the top end come from that was missing when I first plumbed the cable in?

Some recordings have more top end than others. Or are you just playing the same record over and over again? This is what gets me about evaluating this sort of thing by listening. The differences between recordings are usually greater than the differences between any two bits of kit except possibly speakers.

Without proper controls it's impossible to be certain if anything is really changing in objective reality or not.

I don't worry about it anymore. I'm either happy with the sound quality or I'm not. If I'm happy I listen, if I'm not I cock about with the system.

[icehockeyboy]

I always play the same few tracks, one being Dire Straits ‘Your Latest Trick’
There’s a hi hat about 75 seconds or so in.
When I first plumbed in the new cable, it just wasn’t there, despite turning my head to line up my better ear in line with the speakers.

It’s now reappearing.

[Stratmangler]

I always play the same few tracks, one being Dire Straits ‘Your Latest Trick’
There’s a hi hat about 75 seconds or so in.
When I first plumbed in the new cable, it just wasn’t there, despite turning my head to line up my better ear in line with the speakers.

It’s now reappearing.
What about the ride cymbal that's present prior to the hi-hat strike?

[Macca]

There's no way it can't have been there at all unless the cable was cutting off all frequencies above about 1KHz. If it was you'd notice a lot more missing than just the hi-hat.

Could it not be that having noticed that as the sound was dull in general the first time out, you are now just listening more intently for those higher frequency cues in the hope that they are coming through more clearly now?

My guess is this is nothing to do with the speaker cable but some more fundamental problem with one or more of the main components, either some sort of incompatibility or just poor quality.

[walpurgis]

The occasional ear syringing can work wonders, but I understand that's frowned upon now. Probably NHS trying to save money I reckon.

[icehockeyboy]

What about the ride cymbal that's present prior to the hi-hat strike?

Absolutely M
But that’s not the bit I listen for.

[icehockeyboy]

There's no way it can't have been there at all unless the cable was cutting off all frequencies above about 1KHz. If it was you'd notice a lot more missing than just the hi-hat.

Could it not be that having noticed that as the sound was dull in general the first time out, you are now just listening more intently for those higher frequency cues in the hope that they are coming through more clearly now?



My guess is this is nothing to do with the speaker cable but some more fundamental problem with one or more of the main components, either some sort of incompatibility or just poor quality.

So how come the higher frequencies were audible prior to the cable swap?

[Macca]

So how come the higher frequencies were audible prior to the cable swap?

I'm not suggesting that speaker cables don't ever make any difference to the sound, just that they don't change with time. So if it was all good with the other cable why swap to this one that's obviously dulling the sound in comparison?

[icehockeyboy]

I'm not suggesting that speaker cables don't ever make any difference to the sound, just that they don't change with time. So if it was all good with the other cable why swap to this one that's obviously dulling the sound in comparison?

Don’t tell me you’ve never swapped out something in the quest for a minuscule improvement? :)

[Macca]

Don’t tell me you’ve never swapped out something in the quest for a minuscule improvement? :)

Normally I'm swapping stuff out just trying to get an acceptable sound. :)

Honestly, I don't recall ever being happy but trying to eke out a bit more. When I'm happy I just leave it alone until something fails. Which doesn't usually take long.

[icehockeyboy]

Well it’s taken a fortnight, but I’m back to hearing some sweet crisp top end again.

I suppose the point is why did I bother when I just got back to the position I was in with my other cable? ����