View Full Version : Were 'vintage 'components ever any good?
purite audio
18-06-2008, 17:33
Having visited a cutomer who effectively had two systems a 'vintage' system comprising Krell, Audio Research SP10 , Goldmund reference turntable, and a more modern Chord/Nagra , the sound of the vintage one was a bit too soft and fuzzy , was the Audio Research SP10 ever the pinnacle of pre-amps>or was it just marketing bull even back then? have the older products deteriorated over time or are newer products simply much better? Keith.
Wasn't the SP 11 the pinnacle ?
define better?, if you mean sharper, brighter, then modern is possibly better. The older kit could probably stand a service as well. Did you compare them on the same speakers?
I'll be flamed for this, but I never found the SP8/10/11 to be that good - they dramatically altered the signal fed them so can't be judged true HiFi can they?
Mind you, I used and very much liked an SP14 from new for a couple of years but these hybrid units aren't liked by the ARC purists - too neutral and no line valves either? A Croft Super Micro 4 "PP" sounded better than all of them IMO.........
The LS25 was a good oldie and worked well with Krell, but still gave signals passing through it a warm "tone." Kept the clarity though..
I'll be flamed for this, but I never found the SP8/10/11 to be that good - they dramatically altered the signal fed them so can't be judged true HiFi can they?
.
Gordon Holt of Stereophile about the SP11 at the time :
"This preamp sounds like nothing! The high-level section is the closest thing to a straight wire with gain that I have ever encountered"
Hi Keith,
Were vintage components ever any good?
One can only speak from experience, and whilst some vintage gear I've heard has been vastly overrated, the majority of respected stuff I've heard has been very good indeed and in many cases often superior, musically - not in a 'hi-fi' sense (this is crucial, IMO) to modern gear.
Examples?
There are many... Try listening to a well set-up, properly mounted, Technics SP-10 (or modified SL-1210) and compare it to virtually any modern T/T at anything like an affordable price and you will discover how comprehensively better both Technics decks are at reproducing music. The same can be said in many cases of Lencos, Garrards, EMTs. Even the majority of vintage belt-drive decks, if in good working order, are sonically superior to their modern counterparts.
Compare the best CDPs from the late 80s to mid 90s, particularly those using Philips TDA1541 DAC chips, to 95% of today's offerings, and once hearing the anaemic, artificially processed, sound produced in comparison you will quickly realise that out with of lossless streaming of music files via computers (done well) how digital technology in terms of pure sound quality has mainly gone backwards in the last 20-odd years.
But the best example of all is of course valves. This, what, 80+ year old technology when properly implemented into today's designs in my experience is comprehensively superior to anything I've heard so far that solid-state has to offer, again crucially in a musical sense, not in a 'hi-fi' one. Yes, if you want (truly) massive volume and sphincter-tight control of bass frequencies solid-state amps are they way to go, but in my experience it's always at the expense of tonal colour, dynamic range and harmonic detail which are fundamental in allowing music to be expressed with drama, emotive impact, and the most important thing of all: REALISM.
Given my recent experiences in this area, I will be writing a piece in a separate thread shortly on this very subject.
Marco.
jandl100
18-06-2008, 21:55
I owned a SP11 mk2 for a while. It was nothing special, tbh.
My vintage Quad 57s are rather different though - they can easily show most modern speakers the door.
My Krell KSA50 mk1 also stands up excellently to the modern competition.
So yes, some vintage stuff still compares well with today's best kit, imo.
purite audio
18-06-2008, 23:05
I owned a Technics SP10 mark II it was ok, good for the price I suppose but not state of the art! Re old digital I haven't heard enough of it, valves I agree with you, with efficient speakers valves are the way to go imho.
My vintage Quad 57s are rather different though - they can easily show most modern speakers the door.
Yes I've heard people say how depressingly little progress has been made in speaker technology when they hear a 57.
pure sound
19-06-2008, 07:08
going back even further than the Quads, for high quality midrange I'd say very little progress has been made since the Vitavox S2.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i318/murrayjohnson/Vitavox_Aluminium_Horns_5.jpg
Hi Keith,
I owned a Technics SP10 mark II it was ok, good for the price I suppose but not state of the art!
I never said it was "state of the art" but in my experience it's better than most so-called 'hi-end' T/Ts short of those at ridiculous amounts of money, which are normally hideously large high-mass belt or string-drive solutions up to £10k and beyond.
It takes something of that nature in my experience to compete with a good direct-drive like the SP10. Even my 'humble' modified SL-1210 spanks many turntables from 'audiophile manufacturers' which are considerably more expensive than it :)
As for old digital, I suggest you have a listen to some good TDA1541 machines. All that's needed to make them pretty much the best you can get is to upgrade caps, op-amps, etc, to those of today's standard and you've got something special on your hands.
Marco.
pure sound
19-06-2008, 09:03
I owned a Technics SP10 mark II it was ok, good for the price I suppose but not state of the art!
What did you end up using it with Keith, ie plinth, mat, arm & cartridge?
Did you take any pics of it once set up?
In fact do you have an unwanted plinth left over?!!
purite audio
19-06-2008, 11:03
Guy Hi, it could have been my plinth, ply and roofers lead interweaved ( Richard at Vantage suggested the design ) I am going to keep it in case a mark III comes along, I just used the mat I had to hand a carbon millenium, it is a good tt though, and for the price very good indeed.
...and for the price very good indeed.
Keith,
How much do you think an SP10 would cost today if it were still made? Do you remember how much they were originally? And crucially, how much do you think such a direct-drive T/T would cost if it were made by one of the (small) recognised 'hi-end' T/T manufacturers (say those who currently produce T/Ts you feel are superior to the SP10) instead of a massive worldwide organisation such as National Panasonic (Technics)?
Marco.
pure sound
19-06-2008, 11:34
The only TT's I've heard that might offer something over & above would be perhaps a Voyd Reference (or whatever AudioNote's big monster is called now) or perhaps the Morsiani. None of the other heavy decks I've heard have particularly impressed. I'd like to hear one of the big Micro's properly one day. I'll get another listen to a TW AC (away from a show!) in a week or so although I gather its owner prefers the One he has. Should be interesting..
Guy, I agree. How much does a Voyd Reference or the AN T/T you refer to cost?
The point I'm making is that Keith is portraying the notion that an SP10 is inexpensive. It might be now second-hand but it wasn't when new in its day, and it certainly wouldn't be if it were made today. We've already seen the GP Monaco D/D unit that retails for £12,000, which I seriously doubt would be any better than a properly mounted SP10 with the same arm and cartridge.
Marco.
mistygreenandblue
19-06-2008, 11:50
The only TT's I've heard that might offer something over & above would be perhaps a Voyd Reference (or whatever AudioNote's big monster is called now) or perhaps the Morsiani. None of the other heavy decks I've heard have particularly impressed. I'd like to hear one of the big Micro's properly one day. I'll get another listen to a TW AC (away from a show!) in a week or so although I gather its owner prefers the One he has. Should be interesting..
In what areas, and by how much, does the Voyd Reference advance over the SP10 Guy? and how close is something like the 1210 to the SP10?
mistygreenandblue
19-06-2008, 11:52
Guy, I agree. How much does a Voyd Reference or the AN T/T you refer to cost?
The point I'm making is that Keith is portraying the notion that an SP10 is inexpensive. It might be now second-hand but it wasn't when new in its day, and it certainly wouldn't be if it were made today. We've already seen the GP Monaco D/D unit that retails for £12,000, which I seriously doubt would be any better than a properly mounted SP10 with the same arm and cartridge.
Marco.
Not sure how much they were at the end of Voyd's run before PQ ended up with the rights, or indeed how much the A/N version is/ was....but when I had mine the motor unit / ps was about £6500 dealer price...
pure sound
19-06-2008, 11:56
Both cost alot of money. The AN one is £20K + or somesuch.
I know I'm unlikely to ever be able to justify that kind of money on a TT & the SP10 does everything I want a record player to do so I don't really feel I'm missing out. Some of the new wave of beautifully engineered German TT's (Brinkmann, TW, Feickert etc) are fabulous to behold but in terms of getting more from the records, I don't know. I've yet to be convinced. Many of them sound somewhat lifeless. Maybe I need to hear them with better arms & cartridges?
pure sound
19-06-2008, 12:02
The Voyd Ref when set up & running well had an unburstable quality, a sense of energy & drive that really has to be heard at first hand. I gather the latest AN incarnation with equally if not more massive & powerful motors has a similar sense of purpose. These probably do offer the raw power that the bigger DD's and the very heavy TT designs have but without having a big lump of metal next to the record smearing the picture. But it also has the advantage of the very good isolation a suspended design can give. Its a difficult design to implement well but if done accurately it can be extremely good.
mistygreenandblue
19-06-2008, 12:15
The Voyd Ref when set up & running well had an unburstable quality, a sense of energy & drive that really has to be heard at first hand. I gather the latest AN incarnation with equally if not more massive & powerful motors has a similar sense of purpose. These probably do offer the raw power that the bigger DD's and the very heavy TT designs have but without having a big lump of metal next to the record smearing the picture. But it also has the advantage of the very good isolation a suspended design can give. Its a difficult design to implement well but if done accurately it can be extremely good.
Would you place the SP10 in the bracket of "bigger DD"? and if so, how close is the 1210 to the SP10?
*Given my previous problems with questions being misunderstood in the other thread, I'm being a tad more 'blunt' with my questions....In short, I'm trying to see how much of the VR quality one can get from the 1210....I still have around 1200 pieces of vinyl, and the 1210 seems pretty much foolproof...*
pure sound
19-06-2008, 12:58
Yes I would put the SP10 in the bigger DD camp along with models like Pioneer's Exclusive P3 and P10, the Trio LO7D, the Denon DP100, EMT 948/950, and the biggest Sony (can't remember the number.
I can't give an opinion on the SP10 vs 1210 as I haven't had the two side by side with the same arm & cartridge on both. I did listen to a fairly new 1200 with an SME IV arm fitted quite recently and that seemed good. Perhaps not quite the gravitas or power of the SP10 but the SP10 is very plinth dependent and in turn won't sound great if not mounted suitably. It also needs a better mat than the stock rubber one imho.
I'd suggest that doing what Marco has done with his 1210 will result in a pretty solid, reliable and (most important) newly built machine that should last a long time & which represents great value for money. While I've not had any problems with my SP10, any piece of 20 year old electronics might give problems (passive components don't last for ever) and that needs to be borne in mind if you are considering one. I'd also steer clear of ex-broadcast units too if you can. The Mk3 is perhaps the one to have but they are quite rare & expensive.
Gromit is apparently enjoying extremely good results with a loaned old Pioneer PL71 at the moment, so the Technics models aren't the only ones to think about either.
Misty,
I agree with Guy's observations. Modifying a stock 1210 is a much safer option. Also, having heard both decks on various occasions there isn't much difference in performance, IMO, between a fully KAB modified SL-1210 and an SP10. Perhaps an SP10 has slightly more weight but that's about it - given the same arm and cartridge their musical presentation is virtually identical.
Marco.
mistygreenandblue
19-06-2008, 23:16
Yes I would put the SP10 in the bigger DD camp along with models like Pioneer's Exclusive P3 and P10, the Trio LO7D, the Denon DP100, EMT 948/950, and the biggest Sony (can't remember the number.
I can't give an opinion on the SP10 vs 1210 as I haven't had the two side by side with the same arm & cartridge on both. I did listen to a fairly new 1200 with an SME IV arm fitted quite recently and that seemed good. Perhaps not quite the gravitas or power of the SP10 but the SP10 is very plinth dependent and in turn won't sound great if not mounted suitably. It also needs a better mat than the stock rubber one imho.
I'd suggest that doing what Marco has done with his 1210 will result in a pretty solid, reliable and (most important) newly built machine that should last a long time & which represents great value for money. While I've not had any problems with my SP10, any piece of 20 year old electronics might give problems (passive components don't last for ever) and that needs to be borne in mind if you are considering one. I'd also steer clear of ex-broadcast units too if you can. The Mk3 is perhaps the one to have but they are quite rare & expensive.
Gromit is apparently enjoying extremely good results with a loaned old Pioneer PL71 at the moment, so the Technics models aren't the only ones to think about either.
Hi Guy,
I know precious little about DD TT's, in fact TT's full stop....aside from the ones I've owned and can take some kind of reference point as to their sound quality, I'm mostly trying to piece together bits of info from users on the various forums. The SP10, Garrard 301 and 401 seem to be highly regarded, but as to their absolute standards, I have no idea, hence my questions re the VR - SP10 and the 'fit and forget (almost) 1210'.
I'm not a tweaker, I just want to have a deck and play records, makes no difference if it's a 1210 or Voyd or whatever, so it's unlikely I would travel down the road of SP10's or 301/401's....but as a point of reference, they need to be in the picture.....and when you mentioned the VR did some things better, well then that was my point of reference....I just hoped you could fill in a few more of the missing pieces of the jigsaw for me...Building a plinth doesn't scare me though - buggering around with tonearms and cartridges does to a degree...
The comment about the SME on the 1200 does interest me, I've always liked the aesthetics of the last built SME arms...a 309 on a 1210 starts a few brain cells sparking...
I'd prefer a deck with a lot of drive, slam and grip in the lower registers...I can put up with it sounding perhaps a tad less refined than some, but it needs to reproduce bass guitars and drum kits with some vengeance...
I wonder what the 1210 with a clonking great ps on it would do to the sound quality?
Misty,
I'm just about to hit the sack but will come back to you in detail tomorrow :)
:goodnight:
Marco.
mistygreenandblue
21-06-2008, 22:34
Misty,
I'm just about to hit the sack but will come back to you in detail tomorrow :)
:goodnight:
Marco.
Hi Marco,
That's cool. Thank you. I've been awol for a day or so myself, and will likely be MIA for most of the week....
I had some other questions rattling around in my head, but I've forgotten them now as I sit in front of the pc...:doh: No doubt they'll come back to me sometime over the next few days...I know one was about SME arm boards for the 1210....but anyway...Catch you all sometime later in the coming week...Have a good weekend :)
Neil McCauley
23-06-2008, 08:15
Have the older products deteriorated over time or are newer products simply much better? Keith.
Prompted by this thread I decided to dig out some vintage gear. In fact 2 pairs of 1970s JBL L100 century Studio Monitors. You can see them here: http://blog.listencarefully.co.uk/?p=2945
In some respects, the sound quality in terms of detail, the ability to convey (or perhaps create) visceral excitement and bass attack is quite simply astonishing and superior to any of the modern combinations I sell.
This I guess is a function of fashion in that modern equipment has a different tonal balance compared to 30 years ago. Moreover, bearing in mind these really were studio monitors (the Beach Boys did the final mix down on the ‘Holland’ album using these) they present detail in a way that would be unacceptable to some domestic listeners.
Note that I haven’t said that this system (yet) is pleasant to listen to. Currently, it isn’t. It is exciting and powerful and a lot more. But currently I couldn’t listen for an entire afternoon. I'm working on it though.
More on this in due course.
---//---
jandl100
26-06-2008, 09:37
Interesting comments about the vintage JBL L100, Howard.
I had a pair of re-foamed JBL L110 speakers I picked up from eBay for a £100 or so on a whim. At the time I had £5k's worth of Kharma Ceramique 3, ultra-trendy modern ceramic mid/bass driver and Revelator tweeter etc - and hadn't expected much from the JBLs at all - I was just mildly curious. 'Nuff said if I mention that, to my utter astonishment, I kept the JBLs and sold the Kharmas! Much, much more fun to listen to, and not too agressive, to my ears at any rate.
Here's one of them, in situ ...
http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii114/jandl100/JBLL110-1.jpg
While I've not had any problems with my SP10, any piece of 20 year old electronics might give problems (passive components don't last for ever) and that needs to be borne in mind if you are considering one. I'd also steer clear of ex-broadcast units too if you can. The Mk3 is perhaps the one to have but they are quite rare & expensive.
Just to add to that, in terms of servicibility the MkII SP10 is about the best, there are no parts in the electronics that could not be replaced by new standad equivilants. I don't think you can say that about most vintage (and new for that matter) direct drive tables.
I kept the JBLs and sold the Kharmas! Much, much more fun to listen to, and not too agressive, to my ears at any rate.
Theres a lot to be said for paper cones.
...
I wonder what the 1210 with a clonking great ps on it would do to the sound quality?
I think that's Marco's point with the KAB modified 1210, they improve the PSU adding more authority to the sound, although it still won't have the torque of the SP10 or the rotational inertia (lighter platter) I should imagine the KAB1210 sounds very good indeed.
I picked a pair of 1979 vintage AR speakers today.
Paper drivers in a squat sealed cabinet and I'm quite shocked at how good they sound.
Foottappinglyfunkadelicalymouthdrippingly...... groovy.
I'm of to Wembley Loudspeakers tomorrow to get the drivers re-foamed.
There are those who say that paper cones are the only material which has no audible coloration
combwork
26-06-2008, 20:39
I think the above can be said of some vintage speakers. Not just ones that were particularly expensive when new, some speakers seem to mature with age in a way that would be difficult, if not impossible to replicate in a new speaker. I wonder though how much perceived build quality alters our perception of what we hear. If you've ever looked inside a Pioneer SX-1250 or 1980 from the late 70's/early 80's, the sight of a f***ing great toroidal transformer flanked by 4 capacitors (each the size of a coke can) tends to make you think "this thing must sound good". OK, it does sound good but in blind testing at normal listening levels, a lot of 'lesser' equipment sounds equally good. Enjoyment isn't just judged by your ears though. I'm convinced that the tactile quality and looks of some of the stuff we drool over plays a major part in what we 'hear'. Reviewers know this. Sometimes you have to wade through columns and columns about "the silky smooth CD transport", the "warm glow from the valves" and the fact that the panel lights can be dimmed by remote control before you read anything about what the thing actually sounds like:steam:
jimdgoulding
27-06-2008, 06:05
I've missed this thread for these many months. There are positive things to be said for a lot of things vintage. Used to own a house built in 1923. Have owned a couple houses since that were built in the 70's. Fugetaboutit! That old house was was built like a castle. Rather like vintage wine, too. I know, I know, we're talking audio and I'm farting around. I don't think tube technology has been surpassed musically by solid state, but for efficiency and high power, hell yeah. There may be exceptions, musically, in some situations. I wouldn't kick some Spectral electronics out of bed with some Quads, I don't imagine. I don't think this is a subject with definitive answers. So, WTF am I doing on this topic? Dunno, really.
juju_hound
13-07-2008, 22:05
Yes!
I think that's Marco's point with the KAB modified 1210, they improve the PSU adding more authority to the sound, although it still won't have the torque of the SP10 or the rotational inertia (lighter platter) I should imagine the KAB1210 sounds very good indeed.
Well if you're coming to the Chesterfest you'll find out. Nick is bringing his SP10 :)
I still think the SP10 will 'win', but it'll be interesting to see just how close the KAB modified 1210 gets to it. I'll fit the 103R (this is what Nick is using) so that the cartridges will be the same.
The other little device that'll be interesting is the Auditorium A23 step-up transformer. It'll be interesting to see what the D.I.Y guys think of this in comparison to their own designs, and what it does to Nick's 103R on his SP10 instead of what he normally uses.
Marco.
Well if you're coming to the Chesterfest you'll find out. Nick is bringing his SP10
As it happens, its time for a new cartridge. I was waiting for reports from a chum who had a 103 rebuilt with a new cantalever and tip, and the reports don't make me want to go that way (or him as it happens), so the obvious choice is a new 103r. But Marco, what would the pro bring to the table?
Then there are SPU's which I have heard and they have been to die for (after drinking lots of beer, connected to 7 foot tall electrostatics, in a dance hall, but still stunning).
Then there are all the other carts...
Nick,
I'm not surprised that your mate isn't big on the rebuild. There are a few examples now of people 'upgrading' (pay particular attention to the inverted commas!) 103s. In most cases the sound becomes 'sharper' and more hi-fi like but the 103's addictive way of music making is lost in the process.
The only worthy example of this I've heard so far is the ZU-modified version, which retains the 103s natural 'musicality' (valve-like highly communicative midrange and solid, deep, bass) whilst adding some more 'air' and 'sparkle' to the top end. Tracking also appears to be better, which helps ameliorate the end of side distortion resulting from the use of a conical stylus.
However, IMO, the best 'tweaked' 103 is the Highphonic version - the 103 Pro. The difference here is that the people involved are ex-Denon employees and so have a proper handle on what the 103 is about; as such the modifications are 100% sympathetic to the 103's traditional sound but with some genuine easily heard improvements, namely the extended high frequency response up to 55,000 Hz, instead of the 45,000 Hz of the standard model.
This manifests itself quite significantly on the music giving much more 'control', sweetness, and clarity at the top end that serves to unravel layers of more musical information, which also has a beneficial knock-on effect further down the frequency range. Basically, it's a no-brainer. Mine is currently with a friend but if he’s finished with it in time for Chester I'll bring it along and we can do the comparison :)
I'm with you on SPUs but how are you going to fit one to a Hadcock? ;)
Unless you go for a Royal N.
Marco.
Neil McCauley
14-07-2008, 12:58
I had thought that I'd never have the inclination nor desire to use the word NAIM here. However in the context of this thread, during the 1980s, my demo Meridian 105s were regularly pitted against NAIM 250 power amps at Subjective Audio.
In the early days of that period, and despite the fact I was not a NAIM dealer (Linn having told them that unfortunately, I was able to think for myself) the 250 came off best. Not just for the visitor, but me too. I was VERY pleased when the Krell KSA 50 came along!
However as the years moved on, the NAIM seemed anaemic during the duels with the Meridians. One could perhaps conclude that true vintage 250 amps were the very best, or that Meridian refined their design and production expertise - or both.
---//---
Nick is bringing his SP10 :)
There's a nice looking one for sale on ebay ATM. Won't be cheap though!
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TECHNICS-SP10-MK2-WITH-SH-10B3-OBSIDIAN-BASE-PLUS-PSU_W0QQitemZ160260543032QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item1 60260543032&_trksid=p3286.m14.l1318
Yes, it may well be expensive Mike but it would be worth it!
Shame I can't get to the Chesterfest. My SP10 is now up and running and mounted in one of Darren's superb slate plinths.
I'm using an SME309 on it, my GH242 is still on the Lenco. The SME really does not like the 103R, at the weekend I swapped it for a Rondo Bronze and the difference was night and day.
Bet the SP10 is sounding pretty shexy in that plinth, Neal :)
Yep, forget the 309 for the 103R - it won't work. You need something more high-mass. This would be ideal:
http://www.ortofon.jp/english/product/tonearms/index.html
I'm thinking of trying one on the SL-1210 to see how it compares with the Technics arm.
Marco.
SolidState
14-07-2008, 17:13
One of my SP10's was in an obsidian plinth and all i can say is the sound is 'gagged'. I ended up taking the SP10 out and putting it away in storage.
Nice avatar, Mo :)
Are you coming to Chester?
Marco.
SolidState
14-07-2008, 17:24
Hey Marco, I don't know yet, i've been kindly offered lifts, but it all depends on work, i'm quite busy at the moment. I will know nearer the date if I will be able to come for definate.
No worries, dude. It would be good to see you there :smoking:
It might help lower the average age of the folk coming. Don't leave me with all the old fogies and their mad music! :lolsign:
Marco.
Yes I've heard people say how depressingly little progress has been made in speaker technology when they hear a 57.
Not so sure about that;)
There is a Dutch company that is doing very innovative things with electrostatics. They have inverted the Quad model!!
Must try and get a listen to them some time
http://www.final.nl/
Ali Tait
16-07-2008, 18:36
OI! I'm going,and though I just turned 40,I'm not ready for the scrap heap yet! :)
Not yet he isn't ;)
Marco.
You're still near the big five-o than me, granddad! :lol:
Marco.
Yup... by a huge, err, 2 years! :eyebrows:
2 years is two years, daddy-o.
Besides your grey hair and beard adds another 5 ;)
:ner:
Marco.
Beard?.. sort of. Grey hairs?...dream on!
Only when yer hair dye fades... :lol:
Marco.
I fitted my SP10 to a Slatedeck this weekend (sorry about the naff picture).
I am rather shocked, I thought my nice plywood plinth was doing a good job, I was wrong, the slate plinth is so much better on just about every front. Ali and Mo are coming over at the weekend to play with DAC's and 845's so I will see what they think. Unfortunatly my 103r is a bit tired, but its still much better than it ever was (new 013r on order now, can't wait to hear it with a new cart)
I know its a shameless plug for Darrens products, but anyone with a SP10 should hear this.
Neal, try the Hadcock, it works very very well...
http://www.lurcher.org/nick/images/sp10-sd.jpg
StanleyB
22-07-2008, 10:39
You should try one of those new counter weights from John (thru ). He demonstrated one a few months back and since then I heard a lot of people have been falling over themselves to praise him with the results of their own listening tests. I have one on order myself for my Micro Seiki MA-505 arm. 1st darn sensible arm tweak to show up in a long time. And just imagine he only came up with it by accident.
You should try one of those new counter weights from John (thru ). He demonstrated one a few months back and since then I heard a lot of people have been falling over themselves to praise him with the results of their own listening tests. I have one on order myself for my Micro Seiki MA-505 arm. 1st darn sensible arm tweak to show up in a long time. And just imagine he only came up with it by accident.
Good call, John's counterweights were my most significant turntable upgrade by quite a margin. The headshell & mat were more subtle, but the C/W has really tightened things up from top to bottom. When I cranked up Massive Attack - Mezzanine, I was pretty blown away by the vastly improved bass depth and tightness!
Prince of Darkness
22-07-2008, 18:10
I fitted my SP10 to a Slatedeck this weekend .
I am rather shocked, I thought my nice plywood plinth was doing a good job, I was wrong, the slate plinth is so much better on just about every front.
This seems to have been the view of just about everyone who has moved to Slatedeck (mainly Garrard 301/401, Lenco L75 or Thorens TD124). Wish I could afford one!:(
Mike Reed
22-07-2008, 18:54
This seems to have been the view of just about everyone who has moved to Slatedeck (mainly Garrard 301/401,Lenco L75 or Thorens TD124). Wish I could afford one!:(
I cannot believe that anyone would still consider the likes of Goldring Lenco L75 or 88 decks.
The former's arm was pretty dire (even then !), and the 88 was only the turntable, so better.
Yes, the Garrards and TD124 (and 125, 126 later) were in a different league. Even the original belt-drive Thorens TD150 was excellent (and better than its successors), esp. with a Decca unipivot arm.
But the Goldrings......had both in the mid sixties, which was a long time ago, so I hope I've got the right model numbers, because I also remember a G58 (???)
Hi Nick and Kevin,
Nice one. Your experience is the same as mine moving from a thick hardwood plinth to the 30mm Slatedeck for my Garrard 401. I'd expect this kind of result for just about all decks. Kevin, Slatedeck may appear expensive when considered in isolation but, in terms of sound per pound on the High Street, they're an upgrade bargain.
Best wishes,
Greg
I cannot believe that anyone would still consider the likes of Goldring Lenco L75 or 88 decks.
You'd be surprised by what they can do in the right setup, the 99 in particular.
Especially with a 'Slatedeck'! ;)
Ali Tait
22-07-2008, 19:32
Will's Lenco,which I've heard at several of our get-togethers,is superb.He uses his with his own home-made arms,which also are excellent.The latest one is made using an ebony knitting needle!
Nick,
That's great news. I've always rated Darren's plinths. Pricey, yes, but worth every penny, sonically and aesthetically! I intend to have one made for my 1210 sometime before the end of the year.
So, are you going to lug that fine specimen of an SP10 to the Chester fest? :)
Marco.
Prince of Darkness
22-07-2008, 19:39
Kevin, Slatedeck may appear expensive when considered in isolation but, in terms of sound per pound on the High Street, they're an upgrade bargain.
Best wishes,
Greg
All reports I have seen bear this out. I shall probably put it on my long term upgrade list, after I get around to building my new amp.:)
So, are you going to lug that fine specimen of an SP10 to the Chester fest?
I hope to, but I buggered my back fitting the sp10 over the weekend, so it depends on how strong I feel :-)
LOL. Well, if it manages to get to Chester, you can sit it on my Mana rack (which I'll be bringing). It sounds like it might need a solid support ;)
Marco.
LOL. Well, if it manages to get to Chester, you can sit it on my Mana rack (which I'll be bringing). It sounds like it might need a solid support ;)
Marco.
I think the total weight is in the order of 30kg
Wow, that's heavy! However, the two-tier 'turntable' rack I'm bringing normally houses my Sony transport and the Yaqin with a combined weight of 50kg - so there should be no problems :)
Marco.
pure sound
22-07-2008, 22:08
I meant to pick up a 2 layers of 2" slate plinth for my 2nd 'experimental' SP10 today. However, it needed more commitment than I could muster this afternoon (also a bigger car) I'll take the estate down tomorrow. This is a 2 arm plinth so deeper at the rear. God only knows what its going to weigh altogether. The trick will be finding which combination of points & compliance affords it all the best isolation. I'll post some pics up when I get it together. It'll be interesting to see whether it can be better than the Stirling Corian plinth.
Hi Guy,
Welcome back :) How was America?
Marco.
pure sound
22-07-2008, 22:32
great fun. A few days in NY, some time in Washington, a road trip down the Appalachians/Shenandoah into North Carolina, across to the coast & Kitty Hawk/Kill Devil Hills & back up to DC.
Nice food, weather & people. Even in NY everyone was alarmingly friendly. In some ways we have alot to learn from how they live & how they treat each other and visitors. It doesn't excuse some of the things their government gets up to but I've the highest regard for much about the country and the people who live there.
How did you get on today?
Steve Toy
22-07-2008, 22:43
Guy,
Your Heco 500s are boxed up ready for the swap tomorrow. I've patched the
boxes up with black tape where previous courier journeys have damaged them.
I just hope they don't turn up too early.
I'm looking forward to the bigger ones arriving.
After today though I'm looking for a valve pre like that Croft of Marco's. Awesome synergy with the power amp taking it well into the Big League. :)
pure sound
22-07-2008, 22:54
the 700's are on their way with the instruction to deliver/collect the 500's.
re the Pre. Its interesting. An active pre done well definitely can offer something that a TVC (despite its apparent simplicity) can't, or at least not one I've yet heard. A simple valve circuit well executed is the best solution. However, its less easy than it would seem to make a nice, transparent sounding valve line stage with a sensibly low gain that makes it user friendly with a 2V source into a typical power amp. I can probably count the 'good enough' usable Pre's I've heard on the fingers of one hand.
Steve Toy
23-07-2008, 00:08
The Croft pre is incredibly simple going by what I saw inside it (pics will follow) but what obviously makes it is the hefty transformer box hard-wired by an umbilical cord to it. It was a bitch to set up and isolate on a QS Ref mains block stand (a leftover from when a previous mains block sat thereupon) and feed through the other shelves of the main rack.
pure sound
23-07-2008, 16:59
It'll be interesting to see how well this works.
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i318/murrayjohnson/P1010184.jpg
61 Kgs including the motor unit.
Ali Tait
23-07-2008, 18:37
Nick,I know how you feel,having lugged the Mr Liang around several times at 41kg.It would be no problem to come over the weekend of the fest and give you a hand if you wish.
I might take you up on that Ali :-). You can see what you are letting yourself into at the weekend.
great fun. A few days in NY, some time in Washington, a road trip down the Appalachians/Shenandoah into North Carolina, across to the coast & Kitty Hawk/Kill Devil Hills & back up to DC.
Nice food, weather & people. Even in NY everyone was alarmingly friendly. In some ways we have alot to learn from how they live & how they treat each other and visitors. It doesn't excuse some of the things their government gets up to but I've the highest regard for much about the country and the people who live there.
How did you get on today?
Nice one, Guy. Looks like you had fun! I must visit the States one day. We've done most of Europe, but places like the US, Africa, Australia, China and India have eluded us. That will hopefully be sorted though in the near future.
Full report on my experience at the Toyster's to follow tomorrow. I've written half of it, but I've had a bit of a stomach bug which has held me up a bit, so hopefully I should get the rest written tomorrow. I'm sure you'll find it interesting reading! :)
Marco.
pure sound
23-07-2008, 21:30
re the travelling. It helps having a sister who keeps getting posted to nice places around the world. We were able to do Tanzania properly a few years ago. Makes a big difference if you don't have to worry about the costs of accommodation & indeed car hire especially if there are 4 of you going.
look forward to reading about your day out!
great fun. A few days in NY, some time in Washington, a road trip down the Appalachians/Shenandoah into North Carolina, across to the coast & Kitty Hawk/Kill Devil Hills & back up to DC.
Nice food, weather & people. Even in NY everyone was alarmingly friendly. In some ways we have alot to learn from how they live & how they treat each other and visitors. It doesn't excuse some of the things their government gets up to but I've the highest regard for much about the country and the people who live there.
How did you get on today?
Many of us don't find the things our government gets up to at all excusable. Instead, we anxiously await the opportunity to throw the bums out.
Tim
pure sound
25-07-2008, 13:02
like last time?
Whats the % split between democrats & republicans in congress?
Will anything really change this next time? What will Obama really be able to do even if he does get elected?
Neil McCauley
25-07-2008, 17:57
like last time?
Whats the % split between democrats & republicans in congress?
Will anything really change this next time? What will Obama really be able to do even if he does get elected?
Seems to me that Mr. O is being touted as a cross between Princess Diana and Nelson Mandela. Walking in the steps of President Kennedy seems a bit too obvious to me too. What next, a re-run of the “I am a donut” speech in Berlin?
Meanwhile, where's Fox Mulder when we most need him?
--//--
Beechwoods
25-07-2008, 19:29
Can you blame him?
matodono1
13-08-2008, 02:23
Keith,
How much do you think an SP10 would cost today if it were still made? Do you remember how much they were originally? And crucially, how much do you think such a direct-drive T/T would cost if it were made by one of the (small) recognised 'hi-end' T/T manufacturers (say those who currently produce T/Ts you feel are superior to the SP10) instead of a massive worldwide organisation such as National Panasonic (Technics)?
Marco.
Hi Marco,
The original Sp10 was not very good because of it's poorer speed regulation. The most popular is the SP10 MkII. As a complete turntable it is known as the Technics SL 1000 (Sp10 MkII, Obsidian plinth, SH 10B3 power supply, EPA 100 tonearm and separate wired remote control). In 1971 the Technics SL1000 cost the same as a Ford Granada Ghia, so you can surmise that would equate to between ten to fifteen grand of todays dosh.
My Sl1000 was a little bit bashed and had problems with the bearings in the EPA 100 tonearm, I still sold it three years ago for £700 and immediately regretted letting it go. I would like to get another one and found an excellent example here http://www.hificlassic.dk/?t=gallery&f=gallery&id=13 I would buy it in a heartbeat if I had 2999 euro to spare.
The best was the technics SP10 MkIII but they were only made for the Asian audio nutters in the eastern market and I have never seen one. Apparenly they still command nutty prices today.
And........ if you want to get super nutty in the Japanese completely OTT overengineering stakes check out the Nakamichi TX1000 self centering turntable which finds and corrects the absolute center of the record before playing it. See here http://de.geocities.com/bc1a69/nakamichi_eng.html Released in the late seventies it cost over one million yen (no idea what that would be today but bloody expensive is a good assumption).
It is sad to think that we will never see dedication like this again in big companies like National Panasonic. Now they sell us Mp3 players? I worry about the future of music.
PS..... Did you ever do that writeup on the CX pre?
Regards, Matt.
Mr. Yamada (Zanden) uses one
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e151/hansiglock/Yamada.jpg
purite audio
13-08-2008, 09:45
He used a Monaco direct drive at this years CES, with Cessaro Alpha's rather than Avalon speakers.
pure sound
13-08-2008, 13:31
the speakers I can understand ;) but I'm not surprised that he didn't bother shipping over the Nakamichi if a modern equivalent (of sorts) was already available to use in the US. It makes sense, provided you like it of course, to use stuff that can actually be bought when doing a show.
purite audio
13-08-2008, 13:44
I didn't hear the Monaco, Ralph said it was ok! Telefunken M15 is the way to go apparently!
Hi Marco,
The original Sp10 was not very good because of it's poorer speed regulation. The most popular is the SP10 MkII. As a complete turntable it is known as the Technics SL 1000 (Sp10 MkII, Obsidian plinth, SH 10B3 power supply, EPA 100 tonearm and separate wired remote control). In 1971 the Technics SL1000 cost the same as a Ford Granada Ghia, so you can surmise that would equate to between ten to fifteen grand of todays dosh.
My Sl1000 was a little bit bashed and had problems with the bearings in the EPA 100 tonearm, I still sold it three years ago for £700 and immediately regretted letting it go. I would like to get another one and found an excellent example here http://www.hificlassic.dk/?t=gallery&f=gallery&id=13 I would buy it in a heartbeat if I had 2999 euro to spare.
The best was the technics SP10 MkIII but they were only made for the Asian audio nutters in the eastern market and I have never seen one. Apparenly they still command nutty prices today.
And........ if you want to get super nutty in the Japanese completely OTT overengineering stakes check out the Nakamichi TX1000 self centering turntable which finds and corrects the absolute center of the record before playing it. See here http://de.geocities.com/bc1a69/nakamichi_eng.html Released in the late seventies it cost over one million yen (no idea what that would be today but bloody expensive is a good assumption).
It is sad to think that we will never see dedication like this again in big companies like National Panasonic. Now they sell us Mp3 players? I worry about the future of music.
PS..... Did you ever do that writeup on the CX pre?
Regards, Matt.
Hi Matt,
Sorry I've just noticed this post! I'll reply in detail tomorrow. I've not done a full write-up yet but have mentioned the effect of the modifications in the thread "My session at the Toyster's".
Catch you later :)
Marco.
As with many things, you have to pick and choose. For instance, the Leak Stereo 20 is a stunning amplifier that can hold its head up high in any company. The Leak preamps, on the other hand, are not worth bothering with. The same goes with the Radfords like the STA25.
Many of us are running Technics SL-1210 turntables. Can they now be classed as vintage?
I'm not sure as they're still in production... SP10 possibly...
Have only just been made aware of the this thread (courtesy of TGW's 'From the Grave' service). 'Were vintage components any good?' Well I think so; my system is virtually 100% vintage:
Quad 57 electrostatic speakers,
Quad 33/303 and 44/405 amps (the latter modified) as well as some Quad 50E monoblocks,
EMT 930 deck with 929 arm and TSD15 cartridge
Thorens TD124/II decks fitted with any of the following arms:
SME 3009/S2, SME 3012/S2, SME 3009(Imp) fixed headshell, SME 3009(Imp)/S2,
Breuer Dynamic 5A arm,
Audio & Design M9BA mercury contact unipivot arm,
Decca ffss Mk I 'Super' arm,
Infinity 'Black Widow' arm.
Cartridges:
EMT XSD15, Ortofon SL15E and SL15 Mk II, ADC 25, 26 and 10E Mk IV, Decca Mk V (Blue) and Mk VI (Gold). The most recent is a Denon DL103, however the design for that dates back to 1962.
Tuners:
Leak 'Troughline' Mk III, Quad FM3 and FM4. Quad AM3 and AM1 (the latter design goes back to 1954).
Tape Decks:
Ferrograph 632, reel to reel (< 1968), Nagra IV-S (early sn. so probably ~ 1972).
So all of it at least 25 years old and some of it 40 years old. And I'm still on the look out for other vintage stuff: Radford and Lowther valve amplifiers and the early Electrocompaniet solid state amp, plus B&O and AKG cartridges!
Regards
Hi Martin,
As with many things, you have to pick and choose. For instance, the Leak Stereo 20 is a stunning amplifier that can hold its head up high in any company. The Leak preamps, on the other hand, are not worth bothering with.
I completely agree.
Preamps, in my experience, are one of the only areas of vintage hi-fi where one rarely finds something truly excellent without the need for carrying out major modifications - at least equipment intrinsically capable of outperforming its modern counterparts, like is the case for example with certain valve power amps you've mentioned, or speakers :)
Marco.
Got to add the Spendor BC1's, which set long term standards for box speakers. Thank God Harbeth have taken the legacy forwards with ALL of their models, where it seems Spendor are keeping afloat with the classic models which haven't had a significant revamp in 20 years or more (tinkering doesn't count), and a new range which I understand is good but more profit laden than the previous SE series judging by the appearance...
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