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Barry
17-09-2020, 14:33
Replacing inner sleeves

I have spent the last couple of days examining, and replacing where needed, the inner sleeves of the records in my collection.

What prompted this activity was a recent visit to a charity shop where I bought some LPs. Normally I don’t bother looking at LPs in charity shops as they are usually, shall we say, not to my taste. But I had some time to kill, so rooted through the box and found a clutch of classical records on good labels ((Decca ) Argo, Philips and EMI), recorded in the ‘60s by well regarded performers. The fact that the condition of the outer sleeves was very good, suggested that the previous owner had looked after them. Even so, I carefully checked the vinyl surface on three of four of the records and found them to be clean and free of any marks or scratches; so I assumed the rest would be in an equally good condition.

When I got home I had a good look at my purchases, and found to my horror that those that used a PVC lined inner sleeve, the PVC had stuck to the record and needed to be peeled away very carefully, which in one instance meant destroying the inner sleeve. Worse still, those records where this had happened (on the Decca Argo label) were left with a ‘mottled’ appearance and were very noisy. Careful cleaning by hand (using an RCM was only partially successful) removed both the mottling and the surface noise: laborious, but in the end effective.

This got me thinking about the rest of the records in my collection that use PVC lined inner sleeves, so I did a bit of reading around on the web. It would seem that the problem has been known about for a long time. What happens is that in order to make the PVC softer and suppler than the PVC of the record that it is intended to protect, plasticizers are added to the sleeve lining plastic. With time (and this means something like 50 years), the plasticizer will leech out and start to attack the PVC of the record itself, making the record surface stick to the lining of the inner sleeve. The phenomenon is exacerbated by heat, humidity and more importantly by high contact pressure, caused by storing records too tightly together.

It would seem the record industry in the ‘70s and ‘80s became aware of this problem and replaced the PVC with polyethylene or polypropylene (the harder plastic used in envelope windows). So I decided to order some new inner sleeves with polypropylene liners.

Now I do have some Nagaoka No. 102 inner sleeves. These are the type which have a circular shape at the base to fit the record, but I find they easily crumple when the record and inner sleeve is placed in the outer sleeve; even if the existing inner sleeve is used. Incidentally the best inner sleeves are IMO, those by either Discwasher VRP or MoFi. The very best were E-STAT: a very soft carbon-fibre loaded paper sleeve, which helps neutralise static. Distributed in the UK by Tannoy, they were very expensive and are sadly now no longer obtainable.

So I have been going through my collection to replace the PVC-lined inners, and notice that the worse culprit in their use are Decca in all its incarnations (Argo, Ace of Clubs, Ace of Diamonds), and Polydor. I also replaced all those unlined paper sleeves where the inner sides are unglazed, or the sleeve is creased, dirty, discoloured, ‘foxed’, or has the corners folded. Unlike record collectors who want and seek out the original inner sleeves that may, or may not, promote other titles in the label’s catalogue for the sake of completeness, my records are there to be played and not displayed. All of which means after 500 new inner sleeves, I’m only a fraction of a way through the project.

RobbieGong
17-09-2020, 14:46
Does this apply to the anti-static, MOFI inner sleeves so many of us use ?

struth
17-09-2020, 14:57
nope. they are High-density polyethylene

RobbieGong
17-09-2020, 15:21
nope. they are High-density polyethylene

Ah, thanks

Barry
17-09-2020, 15:32
Yes, the MoFi inner sleeves are also very good.

RobbieGong
17-09-2020, 15:41
Yes, the MoFi inner sleeves are also very good.

Yes, what I use so that's a relief :)

The Vinyl Adventure
17-09-2020, 15:47
The best sleeves are made by Todd at MA Recordings, manufactured in Japan.

2nd are MoFi IMO.

QRP make a good sleeve as well.

RobbieGong
17-09-2020, 15:55
The best sleeves are made by Todd at MA Recordings, manufactured in Japan.

2nd are MoFi IMO.

QRP make a good sleeve as well.


Had never heard of those, thanks for that.

Barry
17-09-2020, 16:53
The best sleeves are made by Todd at MA Recordings, manufactured in Japan.

They look to be made from washi paper. If impregnated with carbon fibre, they would be very similar to the E-STAT sleeves.

enrae8
19-09-2020, 06:21
I use the Nagaoka type inners - record in inner ,inner in original inner - no problem with crumpling :)
Barry if you’re chucking away any Vertigo Swirl inners could I have them please -regardless of condition,they are very sought after :eek:

Ubi
19-09-2020, 09:05
The best sleeves are made by Todd at MA Recordings, manufactured in Japan.

2nd are MoFi IMO.

QRP make a good sleeve as well.

Are these the ones for sale at MCRU?

Jac Hawk
25-09-2020, 12:14
i use Divine Audio Black paper with a poly lining, made in Germany and are very good

Pete The Cat
03-06-2025, 07:33
I became aware of the issue of PVC outer sleeves causing ‘outgassing’ damage to records (reacting with the vinyl) at some point in the last few years but did nothing about it until now because very few of my albums are in plastic outer sleeves and what I read suggested that it’s caused by humidity, which isn’t much of an issue for me.

I woke up to it recently when I dug out a few old LPs that someone had given to me years ago which don’t have their original cardboard sleeves due to flood damage, so they're in plastic outers. Although the discs looked new in many respects they appeared ‘cloudy’ - a light grey streaky/mottled pattern in the vinyl. I played one and it had significant surface noise; I cleaned it with my usual Right Stuff/Moth combo and that made no difference. So I read about this gassing phenomenon again and became more concerned, since apparently it can affect adjacent records ie not only the album that's in the PVC sleeve.

When looking at old outer sleeves it’s hard to tell visually what is harmful PVC and what is benign polythene or polyethylene (these days it seems to be mentioned on manufacturer packaging when you buy them). So I used a rule of thumb that any outer that is ‘hard’, especially with a crimped rim, might be a problem. Looks like I have 25 LPs in outers that could be a problem. Most are from many years ago and are concentrated where I keep my oldest albums, late ‘70s and early '80s.

Yesterday evening I had time to pull out the first five and a few either side of each. Out of 25 LPs I checked 2 are ruined. Both of those were next to LPs in plastic outer sleeves, supporting the view that this gassing stuff can move around.

Guess what I’ll be doing today…

Pigmy Pony
03-06-2025, 08:01
Hopefully you've found the extent of the problem, with no further damage. I only have a few albums with those stiff pvc outers, and have no problem ditching those sleeves. I don't like them anyway.

Barry
03-06-2025, 08:03
I only use outer sleeves if the cardboard record cover has a matt finish, especially if it is white or a pale colour.

We tend to think that plastics are inert materials, but they do degrade with time (usually a very long time), but the problem is often worsened when different, flexible, polymers are in contact with one another.

Your unfortunate observation that the heavy PVC outer sleeves with a seam, affecting the record itself tucked away in its own inner sleeve and cardboard cover is new to me.

Do you store your records so that the open side of the inner sleeve is at right angles (or even opposite) to the opening of the the outer sleeve?

I'm going to have to check those LPs of mine which have those heavy seamed protective covers.

Ali Tait
03-06-2025, 08:20
I have all my records in the crimped rim outers, I like the protection they afford. Only recently become aware of this issue myself, will need to take a look and see if there are any issues. Haven't come across anything so far.

Pete The Cat
03-06-2025, 08:47
I have all my records in the crimped rim outers, I like the protection they afford. Only recently become aware of this issue myself, will need to take a look and see if there are any issues. Haven't come across anything so far.

My reference to 'crimped rim' is merely me guessing at one possible indicator of a PVC sleeve. As I say, it's hard to know what's PVC, so I'm simply removing every sleeve that's 'hard' (glossy/tough as opposed to a bit malleable/floppy) and totally transparent and it just so happens that all of those have crimped rims. Chances are that many of them aren't PVC.

Apologies if I've caused any concern however here's one of several threads on Discogs that got me started.

https://www.discogs.com/group/thread/480668?srsltid=AfmBOoqohHWoviEEBY1x2GNgzUqDMz-A4BQub19dWP7YTDxD0Hgo5t5j

Currently 6 out of 6 LPs stored in a paper inner which is inside a plastic outer (ie no cardboard sleeve) are damaged, and 2 out of 25 LPs which are inside a paper inner and their cardboard sleeve but next to another LP in a plastic outer are damaged. So it seems that if a record is in its normal cardboard sleeve the chances of the issue permeating from elsewhere are much less. To Barry's point, the opening of my inner sleeves is at the top, with the opening to the cardboard or outer sleeves to the side.

Ali Tait
03-06-2025, 09:40
The ones I buy are quite heavy duty which is what I liked despite them taking up more space on the shelves, I'll check them out. I always swap inners to Mofi or similar.

No worries on the concern, it's always good to know these things. worst case is changing them all, no big deal. Maybe less of an issue in Scotland due to the prevailing weather. :-)

rmcin626
03-06-2025, 10:04
The ones I buy are quite heavy duty which is what I liked despite them taking up more space on the shelves, I'll check them out. I always swap inners to Mofi or similar.

No worries on the concern, it's always good to know these things. worst case is changing them all, no big deal. Maybe less of an issue in Scotland due to the prevailing weather. :-)

Very true, chucking it down again today

Ali Tait
03-06-2025, 10:08
Aye same here.

Ali Tait
03-06-2025, 10:11
Just checked the last lot I bought from Amazon, they're polyethylene so should be ok I think.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B071W7CX1W?ref_=ppx_hzsearch_conn_dt_b_fed_asin_ti tle_1

Alex_UK
03-06-2025, 10:19
Gosh, not something I had ever considered! I hardly play vinyl these days, not all my albums have plastic outers, I may just get rid of those that do to be on the safe side as wear from handling will be minimal now. Thanks for the heads up, Pete.

rmcin626
03-06-2025, 10:26
Just checked the last lot I bought from Amazon, they're polyethylene so should be ok I think.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B071W7CX1W?ref_=ppx_hzsearch_conn_dt_b_fed_asin_ti tle_1

That’s the ones I use

Barry
03-06-2025, 11:19
What I like about those Amazon sleeves is the lack of an edge seam, which makes it easier to read the spine of the LP.

willbewill
04-06-2025, 00:39
Just checked the last lot I bought from Amazon, they're polyethylene so should be ok I think.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B071W7CX1W?ref_=ppx_hzsearch_conn_dt_b_fed_asin_ti tle_1

Yeah I use those as well.

Pete The Cat
06-06-2025, 15:01
An unexpected few days checking through LPs. On the upside I’ve listened to some for the first time in years.

I’ve ended up with about 20 albums with problems.

Half are due to the outer sleeve issue that I highlighted in my post earlier this week. I must have had a batch that were PVC and have used odd ones of them for whatever reason over the years. These caused a clouding effect on the vinyl that’s part mottled and part vapour trail, and which seems embedded almost as if it’s a deliberately patterned coloured vinyl. Where the effect is so strong that you don’t need much light to notice it they’re beyond salvation since they have constant ‘pink noise’ type of crackling which overpowers the music and two cleaning sessions have made no difference at all. Where the effect is so light that you need to study them before it comes into focus I’m finding that they play with very little detriment.

The other half were due to a few stray inner sleeves that I had forgotten to switch over the years. Referring back to Barry’s original post I also found certain record label culprits - as well as Polydor and Decca, Mercury is a problem. These inners are the type with square paper covers (ironically often bearing a text mentioning the importance of record care!) and a circular label-sized window on one side, through which you can see the underlying ‘plastic’ lining. The effect on the vinyl with these is different to the clouding. Instead they show a sort of shiny black streaking, like sticky zebra stripes, which visually appears to sit on the surface of the vinyl. It matches ripples that I see in the ‘plastic’ inner almost as if some ripples have partially stuck to the record. Interestingly when I clean these the streaking disappears leaving spotless records, however I’m obviously dislodging and distributing debris across the discs because those that I’ve cleaned now have ticks and clicks in new places and which diminish to a degree when I play them. I’m guessing that these discs aren’t necessarily lost for good but I’ll need a different cleaning method than my usual The Right One/Moth combo. All are replaceable so it’ll be down to economics.

As usual how a disc looks and how it plays aren’t necessarily the same, so if anyone has this problem it’s worth working through it patiently and logically before assuming the worst.

Swann36
06-06-2025, 22:00
That’s the ones I use

I’m with those too

Pete The Cat
10-06-2025, 10:26
Footnote.

To be fair to modern LPs, their cardboard covers are on steroids compared with old LPs - bigger and better quality. In 1968 man's scientific ingenuity got Apollo 9 to orbit the moon, but my original White Album cover requires an uncomfortable amount of encouragement to accommodate two 12" records!

Barry
10-06-2025, 12:09
True, the covers are better, the records are heavier, but the quality of the pressing is often inferior.

Swann36
20-07-2025, 21:33
Just checked the last lot I bought from Amazon, they're polyethylene so should be ok I think.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B071W7CX1W?ref_=ppx_hzsearch_conn_dt_b_fed_asin_ti tle_1

That’s what I use too