Do speaker/interconnect cables improve soundstage?

[Covenant]

Better cables bring out the best in your kit but I dont really get how they can improve the soundstage as this (I think) is dictated by your equipment and room interaction. Do you agree?

[Firebottle]

Vehemently not agree.
Although you have got ultimate constraints of the equipment performance and the limits imposed by the room, with a suitably transparent system it can be very surprising just what improvements to image width/depth and ultimate clarity can be achieved with speaker cables particularly.

Unfortunately using better cables usually involves more expense, but IMO is worth it.
I recommend PCOCC based cables.

[struth]

ive heard improved soundstage with different cables, but it may be an interaction between cable and equipment causing it, and may well not happen with cable and other gear.

[walpurgis]

ive heard improved soundstage with different cables, but it may be an interaction between cable and equipment causing it, and may well not happen with cable and other gear.

Dead right, audible cable effects are system dependant.

[matodono1]

Yes they can do!

[Covenant]

Given that low frequency sound is hard for the brain to locate, would you say that a speaker cable that is good at HF will be better in improving your soundstage perception?

[walpurgis]

Soundstage isn't just about positioning, depth of image and ambience or sense of acoustic are needed too. It's a tricky question to answer.

[anthonyTD]

:)
ive heard improved soundstage with different cables, but it may be an interaction between cable and equipment causing it, and may well not happen with cable and other gear.

[Filterlab]

Perfect answer...


Vehemently not agree.
Although you have got ultimate constraints of the equipment performance and the limits imposed by the room, with a suitably transparent system it can be very surprising just what improvements to image width/depth and ultimate clarity can be achieved with speaker cables particularly.

Unfortunately using better cables usually involves more expense, but IMO is worth it.
I recommend PCOCC based cables.

[Macca]

Is there a hierarchy of factors that affect soundstage and imaging?

I would say so.

The amount of soundstage and imaging encoded on the recording itself
The position of the loudspeakers in the room and relative to the listening position
Room effects (reflection, absorption, diffraction)
The design of the loudspeakers


if all those are optimised then I could accept that the cables might then play some part. But otherwise I'd suggest that any cable effect would be swamped by the above considerations.

The best system I have ever heard for soundstage and imaging - by a country mile - was Gordon's (Halfway Tree) system using Linkwitz LX521 speakers. IIRC it did not use any 'fancy' cables. Even then the imaging effect varied from recording to recording.

[Covenant]

I guess the reason I brought this up is that I have yet to experience the effect that some have described of the soundstage extending beyond the speakers. I get a great central image and can get a reasonable sense of depth but its all confined within the speakers.
Maybe try changing the cables to PCOCC but dont want to get my fingers burnt again after trying those paper covered ones from hifi collective.......

[walpurgis]

Have you tried other speakers Jerry? Maybe there are more revealing options.

[Macca]

Have you tried other speakers Jerry? Maybe there are more revealing options.

Will be dependant on the design of the speaker, no question about it, but also their positioning. The more you can get the speakers well away from all room boundaries, especially the wall behind them, the more they will 'disappear'.

[StingRay]

I guess the reason I brought this up is that I have yet to experience the effect that some have described of the soundstage extending beyond the speakers. I get a great central image and can get a reasonable sense of depth but its all confined within the speakers.
Maybe try changing the cables to PCOCC but dont want to get my fingers burnt again after trying those paper covered ones from hifi collective.......

I did it depends on what music you play, on my system some is well outside the speakers, speaker positioning and room may well affect the sound stage. Try playing Amused to death by Roger Waters, on the first track about 15 seconds in there is a dog barking, it should be over your right shoulder, if it's within your speakers then there is something wrong with your set up. How far apart are your speakers?

[Haselsh1]

Back in 2015 I bought a set of Atlas Equator interconnects to replace some VdH ones that I had been using. A years or so later I came into some money and bought a set of Atlas Hyper interconnects (two pairs) and was immediately blown away by the massive sound stage I was now experiencing. I still use the Hyper cables, the best I have ever had. Using these cables the sound always spreads way outside the cabinets of the speakers along the side walls of the room and along the floor.

[Covenant]

I really like my speakers and wont be changing them any time soon. They are about 1.8 metres apart with me about the same distance and they are toe'd in. they sit about 900mm from the side walls and about 600mm from the back wall.
Amused to Death is up there with my 10 fave albums so I will play that tonight.
The Atlas cables sound interesting-might look out for them.

[Haselsh1]

The Atlas cables sound interesting-might look out for them.

Jerry, the ones I have used for a number of years are Atlas Hyper Asymmetrical interconnects.

[Covenant]

I did it depends on what music you play, on my system some is well outside the speakers, speaker positioning and room may well affect the sound stage. Try playing Amused to death by Roger Waters, on the first track about 15 seconds in there is a dog barking, it should be over your right shoulder, if it's within your speakers then there is something wrong with your set up. How far apart are your speakers?

Played The Ballad of Bill Hubbard about 6 times now and the barking dog remains firmly in front, I have reduced the toeing in. I am sitting with my back to a chimney breast that is in the middle of the room though. It may be the odd room proportions prevent much sound from the rear/behind me. I dont think there is anything wrong with the set up but any suggestions appreciated.

[Macca]

Try a conventional recording with a large soundstage. Anything by Isaac Hayes would do.

Amused to Death is in Q Sound so not typical stereo recording. The effects of things being behind you will rely on reflected sound so possibly that chimney breast is the problem there.

[StingRay]

Played The Ballad of Bill Hubbard about 6 times now and the barking dog remains firmly in front, I have reduced the toeing in. I am sitting with my back to a chimney breast that is in the middle of the room though. It may be the odd room proportions prevent much sound from the rear/behind me. I dont think there is anything wrong with the set up but any suggestions appreciated.

Thats strange. It is not behind you, on mine it's alongside you but sounds far away, when I first heard it I could not believe, how it could be but I agree it's not a typical recording. I don't think toeing-in helps the soundstage, you could could try straight ahead. Certainly room is a factor, mine is not great.

How does mono sound on your system?

[zanash]

cables act as filters ..the poorer the cable the greater the filtering effect and greater the loss of your music signal ...that includes spatial information

[chartz]

The answer’s no.
No cable can improve soundstage, or anything else for that matter.
Cable filtering in audio bandwidth is a myth of all things.
Rock/pop records usually don’t have any depth. Unprocessed classical recordings only will reveal what a real 3D (natural) stereo soundstage is, regardless of the kind of loom you’re using.
Soundstage, by the way, doesn’t really mean anything: for some people it’s just the precision and stability of instruments and vocalists, and for others – like me – it’s the illusion that you are in a venue, with the back wall disappearing completely.

[walpurgis]

The answer’s no.
No cable can improve soundstage, or anything else for that matter.

Hmm. I have a feeling that may attract some comment.

[chartz]

Hmm. I have a feeling that may attract some comment.

This is my honest point of view as an electrician and a hi-fi nut for 40 years!

[Firebottle]

You haven't tried the right cables Jacques.

[WullieD20]

You haven't tried the right cables Jacques.

I was going to say: Obviously got a broke system! Better fix it. . . . :D

[chartz]

I was going to say: Obviously got a broke system! Better fix it. . . . :D

Alright then. I will keep the cables only and a NAD 3020 :ner:

Just kidding of course. Believe me, I tried very hard, I used to think they made a difference (even sold them when I was a hi-fi salesperson) and I finally gave up about 20 years ago. My electrical/electronic training in mind helped a lot to realise how misled I was.

[Haselsh1]

You haven't tried the right cables Jacques.

Or maybe ear syringing..?

This is akin to the 1980's claim that all CD players sound identical.

[Haselsh1]

Martin has a point here regarding Q Sound and ordinary CD's. Well recorded ordinary CD's should sound just as effective.

[chartz]

Or maybe ear syringing..?

This is akin to the 1980's claim that all CD players sound identical.

No they don't! But there are explanations.

I have yet to find a plausible and scientific paper about hi-fi cables you see. My ears are fine, by the way!

[Pharos]

Surely a cable cannot improve the original signal, but a lesser one can deteriorate it.

[Firebottle]

Absolutely spot on Dennis.

Once a cable transparent enough (well matched to your system?) is used the full potential of the kit can be enjoyed.
It's amazing how a lot of speaker cables, for instance, block the full potential.

[walpurgis]

All cables have a negative impact on the sound. The best we can do is to pick those that offer the least detriment. Some cables, for speakers or interconnects and even for digital use can make a system sound a bit grim, it pays to experiment, although that does not necessarily mean spending a fortune.

[Haselsh1]

I've sat with three to four people in front of my own system with Atlas Equator and Atlas Hyper interconnects and all present found the difference blindingly obvious. Yeah, so there was a substantial difference in price too. We didn't find that speaker cables gave the same magnitude of difference though.

[Filterlab]

Of course, a cable can't "add" anything, but a good cable will minimise how much is "subtracted" from the signal.

[Pharos]

Depends what you mean by "add", it may add an odd frequency response.

[Filterlab]

In that it can't add anything to the signal.

[Barry]

An unscreened speaker cable can pick up RFI, if the installation is close to a radio transmitter, or to an airport. This unwanted RFI can then feed back into the ouput stage of the amplifier, where it is de-modulated and then intermodulate with the wanted audio signal. So it can, under rare situations, add to the signal.

[spendorman]

An unscreened speaker cable can pick up RFI, if the installation is close to a radio transmitter, or to an airport. This unwanted RFI can then feed back into the ouput stage of the amplifier, where it is de-modulated and then intermodulate with the wanted audio signal. So it can, under rare situations, add to the signal.

Had this with some amps, probably not very well designed ones! but never had it with a Quad amp.

[Barry]

Had this with some amps, probably not very well designed ones! but never had it with a Quad amp.

Nor have I, but there is an article about this phenomenon written by Cyril Bateman, which appeared in Electronics World magazine, June 1997, pp. 480 - 485.

[spendorman]

An amp that actually did this was an EMI 1515, was a bit of a budget thing.

[Filterlab]

So it can, under rare situations, add to the signal.

Yes, but that's not musical signal, or soundstage. Nothing qualitative can be added.

[Barry]

Yes, but that's not musical signal, or soundstage. Nothing qualitative can be added.

If you mean nothing of quality can be added, then I would agree with you. But a speaker cable can under some, admittedly extreme circumstances, add demodulated RF interference to the musical signal. This is an error of commission, as distinct from an error of omission.

[Gazjam]

All equipment can do is bring out what’s on the recording and mastering, to a greater or lesser degree.
“If it ain’t on the page it ain’t on the stage”

I think a lot of it comes down to noise introduced by kit taking you further from what’s in the recording?
If good soundstage or any other Hifi metric is there in the first place, the lower the noise and more transparent the equipment is, the closer you get.

Reduce the noise and added mush, and the good stuff will come out easier.

Of course it’s complicated by the fact it’s all subjective; some people may prefer a particular sound, which may not be close to what is in the recording, but no matter the kit all you can do is get closer to the original sound, but never replicate it.

So why worry, just enjoy what you enjoy and what you have.
Want better, go for it, but don’t expect perfection cos it ain’t there.

[chartz]

All equipment can do is bring out what’s on the recording and mastering, to a greater or lesser degree.
“If it ain’t on the page it ain’t on the stage”

I think a lot of it comes down to noise introduced by kit taking you further from what’s in the recording?
If good soundstage or any other Hifi metric is there in the first place, the lower the noise and more transparent the equipment is, the closer you get.

Reduce the noise and added mush, and the good stuff will come out easier.

Of course it’s complicated by the fact it’s all subjective; some people may prefer a particular sound, which may not be close to what is in the recording, but no matter the kit all you can do is get closer to the original sound, but never replicate it.

So why worry, just enjoy what you enjoy and what you have.
Want better, go for it, but don’t expect perfection cos it ain’t there.

What noise? I don’t have any noise on any of my preamps or amps.
Okay, one of my most transparent preamplifiers with valves has some audible hiss. But it has a great soundstage.
Just don’t believe everything you read.
And my best tuner also has some residual hiss by the way.

[Covenant]

Interesting point you make about noise Gary. I dont notice it as a problem, in fact my system is very quiet but I do use powerline adapters. I know these are shunned by the hifi fraternity but its the only solution for me. Perhaps I should experiment with equipment that reduces mush even though I cant hear any.

[Gazjam]

The noise you DONT hear,
but stops your kit performing better.
Think of electronic design engineers with a bit of kit hooked up to a ‘Scope.

My take is that it’s all about reducing the factors that take away from that original recorded signal.
Every piece of Hifi equipment does it, the “better” (not necessarily more expensive) does it less.

@Jaques,
I wasn’t implying your amps are noisy.
Mines aren’t either.
What is it your suggesting I’ve read by the way? :scratch:

Subsonic (can only be measured with a scope) kinds of noise....
the ear doesn’t pick it up as a “thing”, but if it’s there it makes “less good” Hifi equipment not do what the better stuff does to make you enjoy your favourite music.

Any reduction in the mush that gets in the way of what’s encoded on the CD is a step toward better enjoyment of your favourite music.

[Firebottle]

The noise you DONT hear,.....
Any reduction in the mush that gets in the way of what’s encoded on the CD is a step toward better enjoyment of your favourite music.

Any intermodulation distortion (IMD) creates a low level mush that interferes with the transparency of the ultimate sound.
You don't hear the IMD but it covers up micro detail that gives the open feel to the soundstage.

We aren't talking much to make the best performing systems worse.

[Macca]

Yep, IMD kills everything because unlike THD it's not correlated to the signal. It's just random crap. But if you have THD you will have IMD.

[Stratmangler]

Interesting point you make about noise Gary. I dont notice it as a problem, in fact my system is very quiet but I do use powerline adapters. I know these are shunned by the hifi fraternity but its the only solution for me. Perhaps I should experiment with equipment that reduces mush even though I cant hear any.

Most householders are too tight to pay for someone to properly install ethernet cables, and cry when told how much it's going to cost.
As with telephone extensions, they're happier to run some shit in themselves, and balls up the connections.
Which is why I don't do domestics :)

The powerline things work by modulating RFI over the mains, and it's well above human hearing.
Your average valve can see it, as can your average transistor.
If you want to suppress RFI try sticking ferrite clamps everywhere except on your powerline adapters.

What I said about domestics isn't isn't quite true - I occasionally do domestics, and have some very satisfied customers.
They got a first class job, and were happy to pay for it.
They are the exception, rather than the norm.

[Haselsh1]

If you want to suppress RFI try sticking ferrite clamps everywhere except on your powerline adapters.

I have ferrite clamps on all of my interconnects. Is there more I should do with them..?

[Macca]

I have ferrite clamps on all of my interconnects. Is there more I should do with them..?

Sacrifice a chicken and spatter its blood on them.

[Gazjam]

Chris,
some advice from a Pro?

Cat6 or Cat6a for patch leads from router to streamer?

Also,
Ferrite beads?
Fit them at plug or adaptor end, or does it not matter?

Ta. :)


Most householders are too tight to pay for someone to properly install ethernet cables, and cry when told how much it's going to cost.
As with telephone extensions, they're happier to run some shit in themselves, and balls up the connections.
Which is why I don't do domestics :)

The powerline things work by modulating RFI over the mains, and it's well above human hearing.
Your average valve can see it, as can your average transistor.
If you want to suppress RFI try sticking ferrite clamps everywhere except on your powerline adapters.

What I said about domestics isn't isn't quite true - I occasionally do domestics, and have some very satisfied customers.
They got a first class job, and were happy to pay for it.
They are the exception, rather than the norm.

[Stratmangler]

I have ferrite clamps on all of my interconnects. Is there more I should do with them..?

Is the equipment either end generating RFI?
I suspect not, so being there is a waste of time :)

[Stratmangler]

Sacrifice a chicken and spatter its blood on them.

:D

[Stratmangler]

Chris,
some advice from a Pro?

Cat6 or Cat6a for patch leads from router to streamer?

Also,
Ferrite beads?
Fit them at plug or adaptor end, or does it not matter?

Ta. :)

If you don't ground a screened ethernet installation the screen becomes aerial, and can inject RFI that can cause catastrophic data interruption.
Catastrophic being that the data stream is broken, not that there are earthquakes, floods, plagues of locusts etc.
Catastrophic and nobody gets hurt.
So Cat6 UTP is what I'd go for.

The ferrite beads location is something you need to work out.
I tend to stick power extension strips everywhere, which simplifies things slightly.
Separate stuff with SMPS and LPSU, and don't mix the type on the strip.
With LPSUs on the strip stick the ferrite at the plug end.

With SPMS stick the ferrite where the cable enters the extension strip.
With each plugged in SMPS stick a ferrite on the leadout cable to your device - the idea is to contain the RFI.

Go round the house and be shocked at how many SPMS there are.
Your TV has one, so does the washing machine/fridge/freezer/central heating boiler and so on.
You will probably have an army of SMPS powered devices, same as I have, and sticking the ferrites where I have has improved the sound quality of my audio kit, and that's without sticking them on the audio kit.

[Gazjam]

Cheers Chris,

good info Sir.

[Gazjam]

Noticeable improvement fitting 3 ferrites around my balanced mains setup.
Happy with that.
Reckon the BMU is doing it’s “thing” more efficiently with better protection from electrical mush floating around.

Definitely worth trying in your own setup.

[Stratmangler]

Noticeable improvement fitting 3 ferrites around my balanced mains setup.
Happy with that.
Reckon the BMU is doing it’s “thing” more efficiently with better protection from electrical mush floating around.

Definitely worth trying in your own setup.

If it's cleaning up RFI around a BMU it's an indication that transformers are either not all that effective at filtering off or blocking RFI, or they're ineffective at dealing with induced noise, or a combination of the two.
Interesting things these passive low pass filters, don'tcha think?

[Gazjam]

Yup.

[Discopants]

I had clearer audio 6 way mains block which has ferrite on the incoming mains lead and some surge and spike protection. I replaced it with an isotek sigmas some time ago and I almost moved it on.

Since Covid I’ve been working from home in the office and work bought me an extra monitor. I needed to plug it in and previously was running a 4 gang extension. So I put the 6 way in the office and FMBackwards stereo in the other room but on the same ring sounded better.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Stratmangler]

One place I hadn't fitted ferrites was on the tails from the electric meter into the distribution box, and it was an itch that had to be scratched.
Out came calipers to measure the overall diameter of the tails - and I then ordered some ferrites in various sizes from Amazon.

They were delivered this afternoon, and a couple of 13mm internal aperture (the tails are quite thick) ones fitted almost immediately.
There is a small improvement in sound quality, and I'm very pleased about it.

[Gazjam]

Interesting...

be doing the same I think, be ordering a bunch of ‘em.
Any disadvantage to “overdoing” them Chris?
Is there such a thing?

ta.

[Stratmangler]

Experiment with placement - it's possible to put them in places where they have a negative effect :)
I tend to stick to putting them as close to the potential RFI source as is practical.

[Gazjam]

:thumbsup:

[Covenant]

Following on from Chris's (and others) comments, I spend about £15 on Cat 6 UTP cable and 10 large ferrite chokes, mostly now fitted. I had already installed loads of smaller ones.
Very surprised about the result and it took some time to assimilate in my old brain. The initial impression was that I had lost the ambience in the recording, by that I mean the echo quality-well, you know what I mean. This had been present in most music, from stored digital or high quality internet radio, but was mostly absent now.
I realised though that the quality of the reproduction was better in other respects- vocals had more presence, there was a crispness to the sound and a better sense of where instruments were positioned including depth.
So the ambience that I had enjoyed for years is, by enlarge, not supposed to be there? At the moment, apart from feeling slightly stupid, I think that I have gained from the accuracy of reproduction but lost an old friend in the artifical ambience.

[Stratmangler]

Interesting, Jerry!

My own thoughts are that the harmonically enhanced rendition (ie pre treatment) is less coherent, and there's a whole level of detail being masked to some degree.
Everything I play just sounds better with all the mains borne RFI from just about everything else electrical in the house restricted to where it's created
Things just hang together better, tonally, harmonically, and rhythmically.

That's what I hear with my setup.

[Covenant]

Yes, I agree with you now Chris but it took me a while to accept it. I have a few switch mode power supplies that need to be replaced with linear ones. I will see what difference that makes.

[Barry]

Experiment with placement - it's possible to put them in places where they have a negative effect :)
I tend to stick to putting them as close to the potential RFI source as is practical.

On mains cables, it is best to place ferrite rings near the mains plug. With SMPS it is better to put them near the supply connector where it joins the item being powered.

[Stratmangler]

On mains cables, it is best to place ferrite rings near the mains plug. With SMPS it is better to put them near the supply connector where it joins the item being powered.

In other words, putting them as close to the potential RFI source as is practical :)