View Full Version : Denon dl103 or dl103r
Papa Dee
02-09-2020, 07:20
I know the Denon dl103 is a bit of a marmite topic but I’ve decided to opt for one as my first foray into
LOMC.What I’d like to know from somebody who has experience of both cartridges is whether I should
go straight for the dl103r or test the waters with the dl103 first.My current turntable is a Thorens Td160super with Sme 3009 S2 improved.... I know it’s not the ideal arm for the Denon but there’s a Kenwood dd on the horizon .
Thanks dee
Hi Dee,
The 103 is something I know a fair bit about, with having been using various iterations of them since 1982, so I think I can help!:D
May I first ask a very important question... What phono stage will you be using with the Denon? How the signal is processed/amplified with these cartridges is crucial, in terms of hearing their full potential, as is using them in a high-mass headshell, which you could fit to your SME.
The stock one (or indeed anything less than 12g) will not be suitable to get the most from it, and in that respect I can link you to suitable alternatives if necessary. Also, 103s (of any description) tend to work best through a MM phono stage, in conjunction with either an SUT or MC head amp, but they can still sound good through a standalone active MC stage.
As a basic sort of comparison, the 'R' is a little more detailed than the stock 103, but also brighter/has a more forward sonic presentation, so much will depend on the overall tonal balance of your system (what kind of sound you like/are seeking, and what kind of sound you're currently getting).
The stock 103 has plenty of detail too, but it doesn't tend to be as 'obvious', and it has a richer tone, but isn't in any way warm/dull or syrupy sounding (if used and partnered correctly), and arguably, depending on your viewpoint, sounds more musical, with the 'R' being slightly more 'hi-fi'.
Anyway, hope that helps, and if you need any more advice, just let me know:cool:
Marco.
Papa Dee
02-09-2020, 08:33
Hi Marco, I’ll be using a Jelco Hs-30 headshell .. weight 16gms. ... brass counterweight (courtesy of Magna audio)189gms
and I’m currently using an Arkless 640P .It does have loading plugs.Im leaning towards the stock dl103 as I would describe
my current setup as detailed and lean.. any additional accentuation of those properties could lead to brightness.
I’m looking for added weight especially with the bass ... it’s there with both the R2R and Cd replay.
If things go according to plan a kenwood kd 990 will be added to the stable shortly and perhaps will lend itself better to the Denons
Hi Dee,
Nice one. Headshell sounds good. You may wish to consider adding a little further isolation/damping, by fitting one of these little spacers between the cartridge and headshell:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SME-Cartridge-Ebony-Headshell-Damper-Mpingo-Spacer-African-blackwood-clubWOOD/191509657442?hash=item2c96dd7762:g:WLUAAOSwlkFdIYX p
I've had great success with the Mpingo one, as it improves detail retrieval and adds a lovely lucid and expansive quality to the midrange, which gives vocals in particular a very believable and lifelike sound. Not expensive either!:)
Based on what you've described, I'd go for a stock 103, as the 'R' may tip the balance of your system too much towards the type of sound you don't want. The stock 103 will definitely give you added weight in the bass.
What's your budget for a 103? It's just that there are some interesting NOS vintage ones around you could consider, which IME outperform current samples. This LC-II, for example, if you don't mind importing: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/DENON-DL-103LCII/264391194375?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
Marco.
Papa Dee
02-09-2020, 09:59
Hi Marco...thanks.Just what I needed with regards the choices between the dl103/103R..sadly the pocket won’t stretch to
one of the NOS models... what with the new turntable in the pipeline and a new dac as well...although I may live to regret
it later.I will get the spacer though and by the time it arrives I should have the cartridge bedded in and become familiar with its sound..all the better to identify the enhancement on the spacers insertion.
Dee
walpurgis
02-09-2020, 10:29
I agree with Marco's observations, but the more detailed nature of the D-103R was more to my taste. That doesn't detract from the basic 103 still being a bargain in MC terms. (just to throw a spanner in the works :), as an alternative, I would add that I do find the musical nature of the Goldring Eroica LX preferable to either)
Interesting recco, Geoff, with the Goldring. Not heard that specific one, but am familiar with Goldring cartridges in general.
Musical sounding it may be, but with a fine-line elliptical stylus, it'll have a rather different sound from a 103, and I'd argue not one Dee's necessarily looking for. With that 'posh tip', it'll also be fussier, in terms of optimising VTA, so that could also be a consideration, as conicals are much easier to 'dial in', in that respect.
Glad you agree about the 103... Remember though that 'more detailed' can translate into something else, in a system with an already forward-sounding balance. In your system, therefore, the results are liable to be different:)
Marco.
Hi Marco...thanks.Just what I needed with regards the choices between the dl103/103R..sadly the pocket won’t stretch to
one of the NOS models... what with the new turntable in the pipeline and a new dac as well...although I may live to regret
it later.I will get the spacer though and by the time it arrives I should have the cartridge bedded in and become familiar with its sound..all the better to identify the enhancement on the spacers insertion.
No problem. I think you'll like the Mpingo spacer:)
Do shop around for your 103, including not only checking out ebay sellers, but others outside of that, in order to get both the best price and also best service. I'd recommend Hi-FIx, as they're always great to deal with:
https://www.hifix.co.uk/denon-dl103-moving-coil-cartridge
Marco.
Just to add my two penneth. My DL-103r (albeit in a Paradoxpulse body) never sounded so good until I used it with a Tom Evans microgroove head amp.
Steve
Papa Dee
02-09-2020, 15:41
Hi Geoff ...been a long time admirer of the Goldring sound,from the g800 back in the days to the 1042 which I still have as
an alternative play to the dl110 and Shure v15 111 in current regular use.But nothing from their MC selection.When I first started my search for a MC cartridge ,the Eroica was on my shortlist but more because of the potential setup difficulties than a sound preference I whittled it down to the Denon.Ive
heard the dl103 in a couple of systems one with a very similar t/t setup and another with an Arkless
640P but d/d turntable...liked them both.But it’s a learning curve and the Dl103 stock will probably be first base.
Dee
I can speak from the experience of the same cartridge transitions to you.
Simply put the DL103 as Marco explained in more sophisticated terms will give you more hmm, grunt and welly. SME arm is far from ideal however.
Sent from my BLA-L09 using Tapatalk
... WRT this cartridge..
Sent from my BLA-L09 using Tapatalk
I can speak from the experience of the same cartridge transitions to you.
Simply put the DL103 as Marco explained in more sophisticated terms will give you more hmm, grunt and welly. SME arm is far from ideal however.
Yup... In terms of the former, defo. In terms of the latter, it's actually absolutely fine as long as a high-mass headshell is fitted, which Dee's going to do:)
Marco.
I have used a Denon DL103 with either a Fidelity Research S-3:
https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict/174234273505_/USED-fidelity-research-FR-S-3-Shell-from-Japan.jpg
or an S-5 headshell:
https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/cWgAAOSw80deuiM5/s-l400.jpg
or an SME S-2 headshell (but fitted with lead shim/weight between the cartridge and headshell to increase the mass), all in an SME 3009/S2 arm (non-improved) without problem.
Papa Dee
08-09-2020, 17:34
I’ve taken the plunge and ordered the stock dl103 and it’s winging its way to me as we speak.Will update once I’ve fitted
it and let it bed in....what is a reasonable amount of hours to elapse before it can be said to be playing at its optimum..?
Dee
Nice one. Dee. Did you use Hi-FIx, and has your Mpingo spacer arrived yet?:)
Put a dozen albums through it, and you'll be about there... Remember that 2.65g is the optimum VTF, with VTA bang on level and anti-skate set at around 2.4/2.5g. Also, only use non-magnetic stainless-steel Allen bolts, to fix the cartridge to the headshell [only nipped up past finger-tight], as that will sound best.
Let us know when it arrives and what you think!:cool:
Marco.
Papa Dee
09-09-2020, 12:34
Cheers Marco.. ended up getting the Denon from Dave Cawley.. as I’ve bought all my cartridges
from him in the last 7/8 years and he has always been reliable and competitive .. I’m a strong
believer in loyalty.Unfortunately my Mpingo is on the “slow boat from China”.. they wanted an
extra £21 for a quicker delivery option .. I stuck with the free postage.By the time it arrives
I would have familiarised myself with the sound of the Dl103 ,all the better to identify the improvement
of the addition of the spacer.
Dee
Ok, no worries. Keep me posted on updates:)
Defo ensure you use SS Allen bolts though, ones like these: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/UNIVERSAL-CARTRIDGE-MOUNTING-KIT-Set-of-Bolts-Screws-Nuts-etc-for-any-Headshell/290947523860?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
Trust me, it will make a *big* difference, in terms of how the cartridge will perform!
Marco.
Mikeandvan
09-09-2020, 20:50
Can you use this with a MM phono stage?
Can you use this with a MM phono stage?If you add a SUT or Headamp [emoji6]
Indeed... Are you familiar with those devices, Mike?:)
Marco.
Mikeandvan
10-09-2020, 09:34
Indeed... Are you familiar with those devices, Mike?:)
Marco.
Yeh< i've got one sitting on my bottom hi fi shelf, its Graham slee era v, MM stage. But thought I heard someone say hear the 103 was good with MM stages, might be confusing it with another cart, my dl 110 may'be? Which is shagged.
Denon 103s are MC [emoji6]
Mikeandvan
10-09-2020, 10:53
Denon 103s are MC [emoji6]
so are Denon dl 110.
so are Denon dl 110.High output though, that's why you can use it on an MM stage, the 103s are low output hence the need for an MC stage, SUT or Headamp into an MM stage.
MC cartridges can 'sometimes' be better using a SUT or Headamp into an MM stage, it's down to personal preference.
walpurgis
10-09-2020, 11:31
Yeh< i've got one sitting on my bottom hi fi shelf, its Graham slee era v, MM stage
The Slee Era V Gold is a nice sounding MM phono stage and works well with a decent SUT. Unfortunately, most SUT's are not great. Cheaper offerings from Audio Technica, Ortofon and Sony for instance are not very satisfying.
One of the best SUTs for the Denon 103 is the Haufe T-7883. It is specifically designed for cartridges having a source impedance of 40 Ohm and has a transformer ratio of 1:10 (20dB)
The data sheet specific to the T-7883:
Übersetzungsverh. : 1:10 (transformer ratio 1:10)
Quellwiderstand : 40 Ω (source impedance 40Ω)
Lastwiderstand : 47 KΩ (load impedance 47KΩ)
Primarpegel : dBu 0.05V
(Primary level 50mV maximum, this is a misprint: ignore the dBu)
Frequenzberich : 20 Hz 20kHz +/- 1dB ref. 1kHz (frequency response)
Klirrfaktor < : 1% (distortion factor)
Impedanz Z : 6,8 kOhm 1 kHz +/-30% an rt-gn Farbe /Pin
(Impedance 68kΩ at 1kHz +/-30% between red –green coloured leads. This implies a primary coil inductance of 10.8 +/- 3.2H)
Vormagnetisierung DC : 0mA
(DC magnetising current 0mA, i.e. don’t allow any DC to flow through the windings.)
Wicklungswiderstand : 11.5 Ohm : 1.3 kOhm +/-10%
(primary and secondary coil/winding impedance (resistance))
Thus the transformer has a turns-ratio of 1:10 and will, when terminated with the 47KΩ input impedance of a typical preamplifier, present an impedance of 494.5Ω to the cartridge (this latter figure takes into account the DC resistance of the windings), so 12.4x the source resistance, which is ideal.
Other SUTs which are worth consideration are:
Lundahl LL1933 (ratio 1:8)
Vanderveen MC10 (ratio 1:10)
Sowter 9580 (ratio 1:12.5)
Yeh< i've got one sitting on my bottom hi fi shelf, its Graham slee era v, MM stage. But thought I heard someone say hear the 103 was good with MM stages, might be confusing it with another cart, my dl 110 may'be? Which is shagged.
Hi Mike,
The Era V is only an MM phono stage. To use an MC cartridge with it would require either a step-up transformer (passive device) or head amplifier (active device), to raise the output of the cartridge to the correct level.
In terms of head amplifiers, Graham Slee do an excellent one called the Elevator EXP (featuring very useful variable loading), which I once used to great effect with their matching Reflex MM phono stage: https://www.audioaffair.co.uk/graham-slee-elevator-exp?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI-Mbiqdre6wIViaztCh3_uAz2EAQYBCABEgICxPD_BwE
So, in order to use an MC cartridge in your set-up, you'd need something like that, or what Barry' s just mentioned, some transformers, which do same job. electrically, but in a different way:)
Also, the DL-103 is a low-output MC cartridge, so cannot be effectively used into an MM phono stage. It needs to be used either with a standalone MC stage or one of the devices I've mentioned above. The DL-110 is a high-output MC cartridge, so that one can be used straight into an MM phono stage.
Hope that clears things up!:cool:
Marco.
Mikeandvan
10-09-2020, 18:39
I'll keep an eye out for a Trichord Dino then.
Papa Dee
10-09-2020, 19:40
The Denon arrived yesterday whilst I nipped out to the corner shop for a pint of milk,so I had to wait till this morning to collect it from the sorting office.Then a boiler breakdown came in as an emergency and I’ve been on it all day in Chelmsford and just got back home..too tired to set it up now ..but I’ve got all day
tomorrow to work on it...No Mpingo and no s/steel fixing bolts...but I’ll go ahead and set it up without them
and then apply them as they arrive.Each application will help me identify the improvements or lack of them
each addition brings
Mikeandvan
10-09-2020, 20:00
Why do audiophiles have to pay through the nose for everything? £46 for a tiny piece of wood! (body for 103 cart). I've always questioned the ridiculous price of carts in general, gets on my nerves.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Improved-Exclusive-Wood-Body-for-DENON-DL103-R-Cartridge-Cocobolo-Audiophile-NEW/263405139517?hash=item3d542b763d:g:8lYAAOSwfY9XP5T R
Papa Dee
20-09-2020, 17:37
I’ve had the dl103 for just over a week now but today is the first opportunity I’ve really had to listen to it properly.
Straight out of the box the first impression is of greater detail ...with every record played.Separation and soundstage are also enhanced.But alarmingly the bass and treble are no better yet ...and I’m having to turn the volume knob position much higher to achieve the same level of sound as before.
I’m using an Arkless 640p with 100ohm loading into a Yamaha CR2020. Does the fact that the Yammy has its own moving coil phono stage impact in any way..I wouldn’t have thought so because the phono stage is connected through a line out (AUX)
No Mpingo yet and the cartridge bolts only arrived yesterday...perhaps patience is called for here ..only
managed 7 hours of listening time so far.
Papa Dee
10-05-2021, 15:20
Covid and life in general has taken its toll and time to enjoy and evaluate my new setup has been slower and more measured than I would normally have taken.But looking back that’s not a bad thing.
To recap...Denon dl103 ,mounted in a Jelco hs-30 headshell (16gms) with a Mpingo spacer...on an SME 3009 S2 Improved.
Standard counterweight replaced with a new brass counterweight..189gms (courtesy of Magna Audio of this parish.)
This combination is not ideal... I accept that from the off..but I have taken steps to address the shortcomings as best as I can without breaking the bank.
The result... worth every penny and all the effort. SOUNDSTAGE...more defined and spatial.BASS...present without having to dial it in with the tone dial....not sub woofer bass..but not boomy either.Just bass as it was there on the recording.
Inky blackness in the background...NO...but no hiss ,clicks or bumps either.
Journeys end..? Actually no...I’m thinking what if I upgraded my phono amp....lets not forget the Houdini
ovlov854
01-08-2021, 08:43
One thing which many criticise so is the body of the 103/103R so after some investigation I bought this
https://www.denonaluminumbody.com/
and spent a couple of hours fitting it and re-setting my AN Arm 1 V2 on my Valdi
The results are pretty good with more detail and dynamics than before and its a damn sight easier than taking a scalpel to rehouse the 103R into an exotic wooden body.
Whats more it will transfer to the next 103
I use one of those Denon 103 'body caps' with my sample and can confirm that it does provide subtle improvements in performance.
I also fitted one of those alloy body kits to my Denon 103r,took a wee while to make it's way from Canada and it's certainly a snug fit in my case. But certainly helps with installing and the longer bolts supplied are a help. Recomended.
One thing which many criticise so is the body of the 103/103R so after some investigation I bought this
https://www.denonaluminumbody.com/
and spent a couple of hours fitting it and re-setting my AN Arm 1 V2 on my Valdi
The results are pretty good with more detail and dynamics than before and its a damn sight easier than taking a scalpel to rehouse the 103R into an exotic wooden body.
Whats more it will transfer to the next 103
I'm also a fan of this aluminium slip-case, in my case for a 103R. I use it on an SME 3012R, together with a 12 gram magnesium Jelco headshell, resulting in a surprisingly good combo imo.
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