View Full Version : Wanting a new/old Turntable... but which one? Garrard/Thorens etc
The Black Adder
15-07-2010, 08:31
Hello all.
I've currently got a Michell Gyrodec SE (with mods) but recently I've been wanting something older... yes, older! (in some parts they call me Retro Joe)
I'm looking in to something like a Garrard 301 or a Thorens, Technics 1210 (even though it's still being produced). I'll have around £600 to blow... is this possible do you think?
I've only just started looking in to some of these makes so please be as techy as you can be... geeky even. I don't mind a fixer-upper to a degree.
Cheers
Joe
Hi Joe,
Before we go any further, it that £600 to "blow" including what you get from selling the Gyro, or is the Gyro not up for sale and you simply want to add another T/T to your system? :)
Marco.
The Black Adder
15-07-2010, 09:24
Hi Marco, thats £600 all in... I'm going to sell my Gyro for £850ish so I thought I'd put £600 aside for a TT as I need a couple of hundred to buy some new cables, namely Mark Grant.
I think with the money you spending it will have to be a Lenco The lenco is quite a good deck to play with cheap to buy a good plinth either slate or wood (plenty of good info on how to do this right) upgrade the bearing etc and you have something pretty good
The lenco is more than capable of beating a Gyro
If your interested in this approach I send lots of links
In my view with the amount you spending the Lenco is the best bet as they still cheap to buy
The Black Adder
15-07-2010, 10:41
Hi John... sure please send me some links... many thanks! :)
Hi Joe,
I think I'd forget about a 301... you'll probably find working motor unit for £600 these days but then, of course, there's the cost of a plinth, arm, cartridge etc. to consider. Not to mention any refurbishment that might be required.
A 401 might be possible. But, as John says, that budget should be more than enough for an absolutely 'killer' Lenco! :eek:
I have a problem about people who buy a lenco GL75, rip the arm off and then do all sorts of unspeakables to what's left..
PLEASE try and find a good G88 or 99 before butchering a GL75. Just my plea, but there are still enough 75's around I suppose.
You may still be able to get a good TD135 for this kind of money and the arm should be ok with many modern cartridges. I've even seen alternative headshells used but I don't know if the "SME" standard is suitable (the EMT style one should be I reckon).
TBH, what you should be doing is getting the Orbe kit for your Gyrodeck and making sure the power supply is fully updated. These decks love the better SME tonearms as well and I feel sure that in most respects, an Orbe would out-perform a garrard, unless you like the rumble/motor harmonics playing along with the music (don't care what anyone says, these decks are noisy and it's the way this noise reacts with the music that may just explain why "we" love them so much - the orbe should be fine in terms of pitch stability)
TBH, what you should be doing is getting the Orbe kit for your Gyrodeck and making sure the power supply is fully updated. These decks love the better SME tonearms as well and I feel sure that in most respects, an Orbe would out-perform a garrard, unless you like the rumble/motor harmonics playing along with the music (don't care what anyone says, these decks are noisy and it's the way this noise reacts with the music that may just explain why "we" love them so much - the orbe should be fine in terms of pitch stability)
Dave, I'm somewhat in agreement even though I'm off belt drives nowadays. Way back I went down the Gyro SE route with HR ps, added the Orbe platter but not the motor. It's a good sound but my 301 murdered it.....however I agree that the sound of an old idler is dare I say coloured and for the reasons you give - noise. You can't hear rumble at all on my 301 but something (most likely noise) is colouring the sound, it is beautifully coloured and I can live with it very well but the modern and quiet rim drive I have (Salvation) is leagues ahead of the still exceedingly pleasant 301.
Clive, forgive me.. I'm in one of my strops at the moment.... :mental:
The 301's and 401's I've seriously listened to were in Bastin plinths, together with an ex-BBC 301 in a Loricraft-style plinth. Of course they sound wonderful (why I'm so cross I've almost certainly lost the 401 I was given). By comparison with a Spacedeck they sound punchy and, as Tom Fletcher describes it, a bit "convex" in their portrayal, giving priority to the centre of the sound-stage rather than extreme left and right. The Pitch Stability is definitely CD like and any other resonances/rumble derived components add to the fun (assuming most of them have been tuned out in the servicing and plinth system used). I should still suggest a decent external power supply, as this, I feel, reaps dividends with these decks.
I'm not really knocking the 301 and 401 - honest guv. It's just that I've heard really good things from an Orbe and if some of the Thorens geeks online are correct, I've a sneaky suspicion that the TD125mk2 and all TD160 variants have pitch problems as much because of the slipping-clutch motor pulley as the stretchy belt drive itself (maybe it's my hearing, but I find the 125mk1 better than the Dual direct-drive in stability of pitch terms...)
Hi Joe
Here are the links I promised
http://www.high-endaudio.com/RECENT.html#May Arthur really praises the GL 75 very highly and gives some really good links If you do not wish to gut up the Lenco to fit a new arm you could the original and thier are a few alternatives you could use
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/maddogmcq/myart/lencoheaven/tonearms.htm
Getting the plinth right is really important the Idlier can create a lot of rumble
Two methods
wood http://homepage.ntlworld.com/maddogmcq/myart/lencoheaven/materials.htm
Slate You could get a stone mason to do this for you. A lot of people like Welsh Blue Slate but there are other slate materials just as absorbant I would suggust tapping the slate with spanner and seeing how much it rings Less is best! Everything what I suggested would not mean altering the TT chasis
The arm: I know David really likes it, for me its one of the weakest links and the Lenco deserves more..... sorry Dave just my view. The G88 or 99 would cost a bit more but you then do not have to worry about the Chassis and arm
Other things to consider is the bearing mod I not heard this myself but feedback is good you can read a bit about it here http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=1419.0 but does not seem to much info about this mod
Clive, forgive me.. I'm in one of my strops at the moment.... :mental:
The 301's and 401's I've seriously listened to were in Bastin plinths, together with an ex-BBC 301 in a Loricraft-style plinth. Of course they sound wonderful (why I'm so cross I've almost certainly lost the 401 I was given). By comparison with a Spacedeck they sound punchy and, as Tom Fletcher describes it, a bit "convex" in their portrayal, giving priority to the centre of the sound-stage rather than extreme left and right.
Dave, I hope you find a way to get your 401 back....
We're nearly agreeing here except the Garrards I've heard with an external PS loose much of what's attractive (some would say coloured) about them. Just as lowering the voltage to make the motor run smoother does the same. I find it's best to love them for their character or not at all.
Reminds me of the few individuals who didn't like all the improvements that Linn have made to the LP12, preferring the old-style fruity presentation.....
Reminds me of the few individuals who didn't like all the improvements that Linn have made to the LP12, preferring the old-style fruity presentation.....
I don't think it's quite the same. The LP12 is a better deck overall now it's less coloured. With Garrards once you remove the characterful aspects that people like you are left with aspects that are lacking, mainly in the treble or rather the lack of treble. Mind you my ears are about the same vintage as yours so this is becoming less relevant. I also feel that whilst bass performance is what the Garrards are known for (and external power supplies remove bass...), I find that in absolute terms bass should be tighter sounding. There's a lot going for Garrards and I prefer them over many decks but I find that trying to turn them into a truly high-end deck to compete with the best is a waste of time so enjoy them as they are (but in a decent plinth!).
Rare Bird
15-07-2010, 15:05
To save all the messing about i'd go with 'TD124'
spendorman
15-07-2010, 15:08
Not sure if a Technics SL110 is older, but I think its a great deck. I also have a Thorens TD124 Mk II, have had 301 and 401.
Rare Bird
15-07-2010, 15:12
Not sure if a Technics SL110 is older, but I think its a great deck. I also have a Thorens TD124 Mk II
Stick with the 'TD124' pretend you don't have the other ;)
spendorman
15-07-2010, 15:15
Stick with the 'TD124' pretend you don't have the other ;)
He he, the SL110 just works. I got fed up with the maintenance of the TD124 II, years ago. I have three motors including the Thorens Papst conversion.
alfie2902
15-07-2010, 16:07
darrenw who posts here is having a clearout over on the Wam, might be worth a look at what he's selling here http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?42454-turntable-blowout-sale
Whoops.... looks like the 401 has gone, but the other 2 are very nice if at the top of your budget.
darrenw who posts here is having a clearout over on the Wam, might be worth a look at what he's selling here http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?42454-turntable-blowout-sale
Whoops.... looks like the 401 has gone, but the other 2 are very nice if at the top of your budget.
Might be worth going for that SP10
To save all the messing about i'd go with 'TD124'
Can that be done for ~£600 these days? :scratch:
The TD124 goes for silly money these days
The Black Adder
15-07-2010, 18:06
Hmm... a TD124 would be nice... but the ones I can see on ebay are going for that + i'd need a tone arm, unless I use my REGA 251... can you get a 3point arm board for the 124?
Thanks guys for your help so far... most inforamative.
How about a Technics 1210 or a Lin Sondek?
The 1210 great but I think the money you paying out the Lenco will be better If you willing to invest more latter then by all means go for the 1210
The lenco is seriously good value
Beobloke
15-07-2010, 19:47
Given my predelictions for turntable purchasing, and the fact that I use and adore a Garrard 301, what I'm about to say may sound strange but here goes.........
Keep the Gyro. It's a fabulous deck (and a classic in its own right!). You will seriously struggle to better it for a budget of £600.
The Black Adder
16-07-2010, 11:54
Hi Adam, I am tempted to just keep the Gyro as it is a lovely TT... I just love olde stuff and finding it rather tempting to look at something else, but as you said... hard pushed to find something that sounds as good as the Gyro...
The Grand Wazoo
16-07-2010, 12:32
Well, the Gyro is pretty much 'old stuff' these days - even a new one!
The design's well over 25 years old, I reckon.
Well I'm currently playing my knackered old Garrard 401, with crappily setup SME3009, in a shitty plinth which may as well be a Blue Peter prop made out of old Frosties boxes, with a cartridge that even struggles to aspire to budget (Audio Technica AT95E) and do you know what, Neil Diamond has never sounded so great! I could paractically be on the Robert E Lee! There's a bit of rumble there when playing the gaps between records, but it isn't noticeable once the music kicks in, and you just want to listen to the tunes. (I have realised though that I'd be better investing in a Record Cleaning Machine instead of the turntable!)
I'm sure you can guess what I'd recommend - but I'm biased! (I still think the Gyro is one of the most beautiful decks in the world ever, though... If it wasn't for the sentimental value I have with the 401 I'd be tempted to persuade you into a deal!)
Hmm... a TD124 would be nice... but the ones I can see on ebay are going for that + i'd need a tone arm, unless I use my REGA 251... can you get a 3point arm board for the 124?
Thanks guys for your help so far... most inforamative.
How about a Technics 1210 or a Lin Sondek?
As a user of a Thorens TD124/II deck for the last 40 years and an owner of three of them, obviously I can recommend one. There are plenty of s/h items out there and spare idler wheels, belts (yes it uses both!), strobe neons and other spares are readly available from Schopper in Switzerland.
A second hand TD124/II + SME 3009 will just about saturate your buget - and if you want a 12" SME then you will be looking at > £1000.
Spare arm boards for the TD124 are readily available from eBay shops in Germany, as well as the afore-mentioned Schopper.
If bass is very important to you, then you might be better off going for a Garrard 301/401. I have virtually no experience of either of these decks, so cannot advise.
Regards
Twenty years ago I compared a Gyrodeck with power supply to a NAS Spacedeck, both with Rega RB300's and K9's and the Spacedeck easily won that one..
Ten years or so ago, I compared a Gyrodeck (also with rega arm) to a WB Full Circle (I'm sure both had the same cartridges) and the Gyrodeck sounded swimmy, musical but vague (maybe it was the setup).
I still feel an Orbe upgrade will leapfrog most of the alternatives here and it's amazing that the TD125 was genuinely thought to be an UPGRADE on the TD124, which can (albeit gently) let you know about the parts whirling round underneath. In a way, a shame the better Thorens decks never made it here after the later TD126's (which got worse before an ignored (by the Linn, Pink, Oracle, Roksan brigade) triumphal return to form).
Anyway, just my tuppence worth.
He he, the SL110 just works. I got fed up with the maintenance of the TD124 II, years ago. I have three motors including the Thorens Papst conversion.
The Thorens 124/II only needs the occasional maintenance - about once every 5 years is all that is needed. The usual item that needs attention are the rubber 'mushrooms' used to support the deck. With time these harden, become brittle and collapse, and have to be replaced. Spares are readily obtainable.
The Papst motors were supplied to Thorens when the original source of the motors dried up. Despite looking 'bigger and better', they are no more powerful than the original and are over-rated; TD124s so fitted, command excessive and unjustified prices on eBay.
Regards
Twenty years ago I compared a Gyrodeck with power supply to a NAS Spacedeck, both with Rega RB300's and K9's and the Spacedeck easily won that one..
Ten years or so ago, I compared a Gyrodeck (also with rega arm) to a WB Full Circle (I'm sure both had the same cartridges) and the Gyrodeck sounded swimmy, musical but vague (maybe it was the setup).
I still feel an Orbe upgrade will leapfrog most of the alternatives here and it's amazing that the TD125 was genuinely thought to be an UPGRADE on the TD124, which can (albeit gently) let you know about the parts whirling round underneath. In a way, a shame the better Thorens decks never made it here after the later TD126's (which got worse before an ignored (by the Linn, Pink, Oracle, Roksan brigade) triumphal return to form).
Anyway, just my tuppence worth.
Sounds like your 124 needs a service!
Regards
The Grand Wazoo
16-07-2010, 18:37
Twenty years ago I compared a Gyrodeck with power supply to a NAS Spacedeck, both with Rega RB300's and K9's and the Spacedeck easily won that one..
The big Gyropower QC has come along since then, making a big difference. That's the one looking like the Alecto power amps or as I call it the 'Stealth toilet seat'
I still feel an Orbe upgrade will leapfrog most of the alternatives here.
I think it would be foolish to right off the Gyro without trying this at least.
Joe, I've owned a Gyro for about 18 years.
Sounds like your 124 needs a service!
Regards
This was the view when the 125 first came out, mainly because it offered lower noise and better isolation (I suspect the W&F figures on the 125 may have been better as long as the belt was new and spotless).
Remember, 301's, 401's, G99's, TD124's and Sony TTS3000's weren't regarded with anything like the fondness they are now, way back in the 70's, although grease-bearing 301's were sought after.
I do appreciate the desirability of an analogue classic, but the Gyro is good enough to suggest a budget of at least a grand on a vintage replacement should be considered. Just my opinion which is in flux at the best of times and never set in stone...
Rare Bird
16-07-2010, 19:00
This was the view when the 125 first came out, mainly because it offered lower noise and better isolation (I suspect the W&F figures on the 125 may have been better as long as the belt was new and spotless).
Remember, 301's, 401's, G99's, TD124's and Sony TTS3000's weren't regarded with anything like the fondness they are now, way back in the 70's, although grease-bearing 301's were sought after.
I do appreciate the desirability of an analogue classic, but the Gyro is good enough to suggest a budget of at least a grand on a vintage replacement should be considered. Just my opinion which is in flux at the best of times and never set in stone...
TTS3000 anyday ;)
This was the view when the 125 first came out, mainly because it offered lower noise and better isolation (I suspect the W&F figures on the 125 may have been better as long as the belt was new and spotless).
Remember, 301's, 401's, G99's, TD124's and Sony TTS3000's weren't regarded with anything like the fondness they are now, way back in the 70's, although grease-bearing 301's were sought after.
I do appreciate the desirability of an analogue classic, but the Gyro is good enough to suggest a budget of at least a grand on a vintage replacement should be considered. Just my opinion which is in flux at the best of times and never set in stone...
The oil bearing was developed by Garrard for the 301 in response to a request by the BBC. The BBC found the grease bearing 301s inadequate for stereo. Presumably this meant that rumble was noticable, once the vertical component of the stereo record groove was used.
The Black Adder
18-07-2010, 13:19
righto... all interesting stuff. I would like a change, so I may put the full wedge in and look for a TD124 or a 301...
So... what makes the TD124 not do bass as good as the Garrard? - Surely this can be sorted out? I ask as it's (to look at) practially the same design as the 301. I'm confused!
Rare Bird
18-07-2010, 13:24
righto... all interesting stuff. I would like a change, so I may put the full wedge in and look for a TD124 or a 301...
So... what makes the TD124 not do bass as good as the Garrard? - Surely this can be sorted out? I ask as it's (to look at) practially the same design as the 301. I'm confused!
Well the TD124 has both an Idler wheel & a rubber belt ;) Whats the attraction with the '301' over the '401'?
spendorman
18-07-2010, 13:39
I prefer 301 knobs over 401 knobs, easier to use!
Whats the attraction with the '301' over the '401'?
It looks much nicer! ;)
It'd probably take a TD-124 over a Garrard, though, given that everything was equal in terms of arms, cartridges and plinths, as I think the TD-124 is fundamentally more accurate, sonically, and overall better engineered.
Dave,
Remember, 301's, 401's, G99's, TD124's and Sony TTS3000's weren't regarded with anything like the fondness they are now, way back in the 70's....
Yes, and that was simply because of a mixture of ignorance and indoctrination from all fronts that nothing could be as good as the fruitbox from Glasgow! :rolleyes:
Joe, there's not much point putting an SL-1200 into the mix if you want something that looks 'retro'. Also, with a budget of only £600, you'd struggle to get one sounding anything like as good as a suitably fettled Lenco, TD-124 or Garrard.
Marco.
It looks much nicer! ;)
It'd probably take a TD-124 over a Garrard, though, given that everything was equal in terms of arms, cartridges and plinths, as I think the TD-124 is fundamentally more accurate, sonically.
Marco.
Would that be the white, buttermilk cream or hammer finish grey version? With or without strobe platter?
I prefer the looks of the 401, which also sounds better - though it quickly became victim of 'value engineering', so best to get an early example with low serial number.
Regards
Hi Barry,
Buttermilk cream without strobe markings, for me! :)
Here is a nice example:
http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/3510/garrard.jpg (http://img840.imageshack.us/i/garrard.jpg/)
Gorgeous!!
I'm afraid that I simply hate the 'plasticy' looks of the 401, even though it may have sounded better (although I've yet to hear this myself).
Marco.
Hi Barry,
Buttermilk cream without strobe markings, for me! :)
Here is a nice example:
http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/3510/garrard.jpg (http://img840.imageshack.us/i/garrard.jpg/)
Gorgeous!!
I'm afraid that I simply hate the 'plasticy' looks of the 401, even though it may have sounded better (although I've yet to hear this myself).
Marco.
Sounds like one of the later 'value engineered' versions where the beautiful cast Garrard logo was replaced with a pressed metal version. Will admit the 401 does look quintessentially '60s, which you either like or don't.
Ken Kessler summed up the 401 nicely as "a 301 in a Saville Row suit".
Given your aesthetic preference; you would probably prefer the pale cream Mk. I version of the Thorens 124 to the grey Mk. II. :)
Suum cuique.
Sounds like one of the later 'value engineered' versions where the beautiful cast Garrard logo was replaced with a pressed metal version.
Could well be. I know little about 401s, but every one I've seen looks 'plasticy' compared to a 301. It's mainly the speed selector switch and face plate with the Garrard logo on it I'm referring to. I'm sure that the speed selector switch is made of a different material to the one on the 301. It certainly looks that way.....
Will admit the 401 does look quintessentially '60s, which you either like or don't.
It does indeed, and aesthetically I prefer 1950s to 1960s designs in almost anything. I also love the buttermilk cream colour (as it makes the deck look nice and 'fresh') and lack of strobe markings on the platter. 401s, for me, look rather drab in comparison. Did 401s come in cream?
And can you get 401s without strobe markings on the platter? It's the strobe markings which make the platter really ugly and 'heavy on the eye', in my view.
Ken Kessler summed up the 401 nicely as "a 301 in a Saville Row suit".
Lol - I'm afraid I'd describe it more as a '301 in a shell-suit from Matalan'! :eyebrows:
Given your aesthetic preference; you would probably prefer the pale cream Mk. I version of the Thorens 124 to the grey Mk. II. :)
Perhaps - could you show me examples of both and I'll let you know?
Marco.
I think the only variation in colour of the 401 was a subtle change in the hue of the grey-brown, that occured over the production span of the 401. I don't think the 401s were ever available without the strobe markings on the platter. For most admirers of the 401, it is just those machine-cut strobe markings that does it for them.
Since the bearing and platter are essentially unchanged, and since one could choose a strobe platter for the 301, one ought in principle be able to take a 'non-strobe' platter from a 301 and use it on a 401. Don't hold me to that, but I think it could be done.
Suspect it is the amount of chrome used on the 401 that offends your eye, Marco.
Will have to find some photos of both the Mk. I and Mk. II versions of the TD124 for you to look at. In the latter case, the changes were not simply cosmetic.
Regards
Please do, Barry, as that would be most interesting :)
Any thoughts on this:
It's mainly the speed selector switch and face plate with the Garrard logo on it I'm referring to. I'm sure that the speed selector switch is made of a different material to the one on the 301. It certainly looks that way.....
The speed selector switches on the 401s I've seen definitely look like they're made of plastic!
And they definitely don't on the 301.
Marco.
The knobs on the 401 are metal I can assure you and the front trim is also metal as I remember.
The 401 did change the font on the trim plate and the strobe light-lens changed later on as well. I think the ones I've owned have been mk1's and the 124's I turned down were cream coloured mk1's...
Beobloke
19-07-2010, 09:19
Whats the attraction with the '301' over the '401'?
The other problem with the 401 over the 301 is that it was made later, in the 1960s and 1970s - a period when Garrard were running into financial difficulties. Costs and corners were cut and quality control became a major issue.
In my experience a 401 can sound as good as a 301, but you often have to do more restoration/modification work to get it there.
Also, to confirm a couple of other points mentioned - the 401s knobs are metal, and the 401 was never offered with a platter that had no strobe markings. I think this was mainly due to the fact that, by the end of the 301's life, nearly everyone who bought one paid extra for the strobe platter.
Since the bearing and platter are essentially unchanged, and since one could choose a strobe platter for the 301, one ought in principle be able to take a 'non-strobe' platter from a 301 and use it on a 401. Don't hold me to that, but I think it could be done.
Suspect it is the amount of chrome used on the 401 that offends your eye, Marco.
Will have to find some photos of both the Mk. I and Mk. II versions of the TD124 for you to look at. In the latter case, the changes were not simply cosmetic.
Regards
The bearing heights and inner platter support are marginally different, a 301 platter on a 401 bearing will result in a bit of extra gap between chassis and platter. This can be compensated for with a different bearing thrust pad.
Personally I like 301 without strobe markings and 401 with. The 401 looks more like a disco deck to me (meant in a complimentary way), the 301 looks very old fashioned but great because of it, strobe markings on a 301 look out of place IMO.
TD124 is great too though the ones I've heard have been a little "over smooth" for me, could just have been their setups though. Great engineering.
I have to say generally I prefer the look of the 401 (I'm biased obviously) but think this 301 (called "The Beat" by Kodo Audio) is simply gorgeous - if not maybe a bit sacrilegious!
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue47/images/Garrard%20301%20Modded.JPG
Picture pinched from Positive Feedback's mini review of the CES show - hope they don't mind - full article: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue47/cesma.htm
Techno Commander
19-07-2010, 10:17
That looks good. It is precisely the "buttermilk" colour which Marco adores, that puts me off the 301. For some reason, it looks too "kitchen appliance" for my tastes. :)
The Black Adder
19-07-2010, 10:37
hey!... I wonder if Moulinex ever made a turntable!
That looks good. It is precisely the "buttermilk" colour which Marco adores, that puts me off the 301. For some reason, it looks too "kitchen appliance" for my tastes.
Lol - it's all personal taste, Andy. I think some of the 'kitchen appliance' look can be diluted by the style of plinth that's used. It's not so much the colour though why I prefer the look of 301s to 401s. Barry hit the nail on the head when he said that it's a 50s vs. 60s aesthetic thing. I love retro design, but I'm very specific about which type I like.
Alex, I've seen that 301 before and love it's over-the-top 'industrial' look, which is of course somewhat different from the buttermilk cream versions I like, but at least it doesn't have that (to me) horrible strobe platter.....
Clive,
Personally I like 301 without strobe markings and 401 with. The 401 looks more like a disco deck to me (meant in a complimentary way), the 301 looks very old fashioned but great because of it, strobe markings on a 301 look out of place IMO.
I completely agree, particularly with the bit in bold (although I don't really like the way the 401 looks at all). I hate the strobe markings on the Techie platter for the very same reason, although I realise why they are there. One of the reasons for upgrading to the Mike New platter, should I decide that I want to do this, aside from any sonic improvements, would be to get rid of those bloody strobe markings on the stock platter! :spew:
But then the Techie was never bought for its looks ;)
Marco.
Techno Commander
19-07-2010, 11:52
If you do this, I would recommend turning the old platter into a wall clock.
Those cheap battery mechanisms fit very well. Add a Technics slip mat and you're done. Or stick it on the bay and watch someone pay silly money for it. :)
Not knocking your decision for the 301 at all, I know its a good piece of kit. Although I prefer the 401 for its "heavy industrial" appearance. They do sound very good when partnered by a 12" SME though.
Rare Bird
19-07-2010, 13:09
Not knocking your decision for the 301 at all, I know its a good piece of kit. Although I prefer the 401 for its "heavy industrial" appearance. They do sound very good when partnered by a 12" SME though.
I'm with you Andy, i personally adore the '401' asthetics, comon guys the '401' has to be the best ever looking motor unit.
Found this one on Photobucket - gorgeous or what!
http://i652.photobucket.com/albums/uu243/rvkfour/DSC01649.jpg?1279545964
Rare Bird
19-07-2010, 13:38
thats very nice,
The Black Adder
19-07-2010, 14:19
actually that does look rather cool....
Lol.... You see, it just shows how our tastes differ! :eyebrows:
For me, the Garrard looks ok, but nothing special, as it's just in a plain looking, rather non-descript, 'flat & shapeless' grey plinth, which for me, is also much bigger than it needs to be..... I prefer plinths to be 'tighter' constructed around the motor unit chosen, with no extraneous spaces around tonearms, etc.
I also like to see either the creative use of metal and/or wood (or slate), and preferably some lovely real wood grain on display. Alex's picture earlier of the 'industrial looking' 301 was, IMO, much nicer looking than the 401 above, as was the one I showed to Barry.
The lovely wooden plinths on these SP10s are much more to my taste than that bland grey thing on the 401:
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/2628/plinth02.jpg (http://img829.imageshack.us/i/plinth02.jpg/)
http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/4192/20100718101146.jpg (http://img340.imageshack.us/i/20100718101146.jpg/)
For me, those are much more like it... It's just a personal taste thing! :)
Marco.
Rare Bird
19-07-2010, 17:38
Dude you know what i'm gonna say dont yer ;)
:lolsign:
I also like to see either the creative use of metal and/or wood (or slate), and preferably some lovely real wood grain on display. Alex's picture earlier of the 'industrial looking' 301 was, IMO, much nicer looking than the 401 above, as was the one I showed to Barry.
The lovely wooden plinths on these SP10s are much more to my taste than that bland grey thing on the 401:
For me, those are much more like it... It's just a personal taste thing! :)
*Cough*....*Splutter*
May I draw the viewers attention to the following..... :lolsign:
(See next page)
Yeah, it's not to everyones taste, but for me it hides a multitude of sins and I like the deep plinths of retro turntables, so that was just a geeky indulgence.
Perhaps Mrs user34 would prefer your 1210 clad in zebrano?
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/indypepa/p1.jpg
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/indypepa/p3.jpg
or maybe plain ol' maple
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/indypepa/plin1.jpg
And me... Nice clean lines, it doesn't draw attention to itself :)
The 'Zebrano' looks like it's been designed by a chest wig-wearer for a tart's boudoir in the 1970s.
Marco.
;)
What's in the bottom of that plinth?
Lol!! Mikey, there's a big difference (certainly to my eyes) between this vision of loveliness:
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/2628/plinth02.jpg (http://img829.imageshack.us/i/plinth02.jpg/)
...and this comical monstrosity:
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/indypepa/p1.jpg
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/indypepa/p3.jpg
...which isn't even a proper plinth, and instead merely an outer box for those too lazy to do the bloody job properly (sorry Scoobs!)
Anyway, shweety, thanks for the giggle! :lol:
Marco.
Rare Bird
19-07-2010, 19:03
:lolsign:
Lol!! Mikey, there's a big difference (certainly to my eyes) between this vision of loveliness:
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/2628/plinth02.jpg (http://img829.imageshack.us/i/plinth02.jpg/)
...and this comical monstrosity:
http://i230.photobucket.com/albums/ee15/indypepa/p1.jpg
Have a word with yer bad self! :lol:
Zebrano is a luverly wood! :eek:
I like it in certain applications, depending on the grain. We've got a Zebrano wood bog seat - ok, SHUT IT! :eek: :lol:
Marco.
P.S And no it hasn't got a furry cover! http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/8642/119156.gif (http://img831.imageshack.us/i/119156.gif/) http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/8642/119156.gif (http://img831.imageshack.us/i/119156.gif/)
The Grand Wazoo
19-07-2010, 19:44
I'm not so keen on strongly figured wood in turntable plinths myself. It's all dendro-bling!
As side cheeks or a sleeve on an amp or tuner, maybe, but not TT's.
I said once before somewhere that I've rarely seen an SP10 in a plinth that suits it, but I reckon the one that Alex showed with the 401 in it would do the job for me. However that gunmetal 301 that Alex showed is one of the most beautiful TT's I've ever seen in my life - I saw a picture of it in a copy of HFN recently.
However that gunmetal 301 that Alex showed is one of the most beautiful TT's I've ever seen in my life.
Agreed! :)
I think that slate suits the SP10 best, aesthetically. Still not keen on that grey thing with the 401 in it, though.... Any idea what it's made of?
Marco.
Still not keen on that grey thing with the 401 in it, though.... Any idea what it's made of?
Formica? :scratch:
The Grand Wazoo
19-07-2010, 19:55
I thought it was timber of some sort with a deep deep paint finish - could be wrong (probably am!)
The gunmetal 301 needs a subtle application of a well matched dark timber around the lower half of the plinth to finish it off & make it just perfect, I reckon. A good frame on an inspired picture, if you like - you know the kind of thing, I'd guess Marco!
DAVEDWACK
19-07-2010, 20:21
2242
2243
Here's a couple of pictures of mine...I've had the Thorens over 25 years and stuck it in it's slate plinth well before it became a bit fashionable.
Cheers....Dave
The gunmetal 301 needs a subtle application of a well matched dark timber around the lower half of the plinth to finish it off & make it just perfect, I reckon. A good frame on an inspired picture, if you like - you know the kind of thing, I'd guess Marco!
Lol - it's been known now and again, Chris! I do agree, though, as that would really finish it off and turn it into something of almost sculptural beauty.
For me, the nicest plinths are those which skillfully combine the use of different materials, and wood is usually always needed to add some warmth and tactility. I also like plinth designs which err on the 'organic' side of design. I dislike anything that looks overly clinical :)
Yes, when it comes to that sort of thing I'm a bit of a fussy f*cker! If I ever buy a separate T/T motor unit, like an SP10, you can take it for granted that I'd have the nicest looking most sonically optimised plinth I could find built to my exacting specifications......
Returning to something Barry wrote earlier, which I feel is worthy of further investigation:
Sounds like one of the later 'value engineered' versions where the beautiful cast Garrard logo was replaced with a pressed metal version.
[And]:
I prefer the looks of the 401, which also sounds better - though it quickly became victim of 'value engineering', so best to get an early example with low serial number.
One wonders how many of the total 401s put into production were "value engineered", and how many were not so and thus built properly; in effect which was the bigger percentage?
If I were a Garrard aficionado, that little 'factoid' of Barry's would completely put me off any of the later "value engineered" 401s, and in fact more likely make me want to buy a 301, and thus be assured of the requisite standards of engineering, as I demand the best. That's over and above the fact that I prefer 301s from an aesthetic point of view.
What are other people's views on this?
Marco.
2242
2243
Here's a couple of pictures of mine...I've had the Thorens over 25 years and stuck it in it's slate plinth well before it became a bit fashionable.
Hi Dave,
That's a lovely looking TD-124; probably the nicest I've seen! You must be very proud of it :)
I'm sure that Barry will approve of your system!
Marco.
Hi Dave,
That's a lovely looking TD-124; probably the nicest I've seen! You must be very proud of it :)
I'm sure that Barry will approve of your system!
Marco.
Sure do! TD124/II and Quad ESLs - yummy! Lovely looking and I'm sure sounding system you have there Dave.
Regards
The Black Adder
19-07-2010, 21:30
I've got a Rega RB251 arm with the three point Linn fixing, how easy is it to get an arm board for a 124 that would fit?
I thought it was timber of some sort with a deep deep paint finish - could be wrong (probably am!)
Looks like it - http://s652.photobucket.com/albums/uu243/rvkfour/ - hope this guy doesn't mind us rifling through his photos! I just love the whole simplicity of the piano white finish, with the 2 tonearms.
Check this page of his album too... What are those?
http://s652.photobucket.com/albums/uu243/rvkfour/?start=80
I think we need this chap as an AoS member, looks like some very interesting kit!
(a few more here - http://s652.photobucket.com/albums/uu243/rvkfour/?start=160)
Lol - it's all personal taste.........
Alex, I've seen that 301 before and love it's over-the-top 'industrial' look, which is of course somewhat different from the buttermilk cream versions I like, but at least it doesn't have that (to me) horrible strobe platter.....
Marco.
You want 'industrial' - then how about this?
http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/barrydhunt/BubGQkQEWkKGrHqEOKiEEvNzIQS99BMTFpt.jpg
Now all you have to do is find a plinth that's in keeping and has that aesthetic savoir faire. And when you have, let me know - the deck shown is mine!
Regards
I just love the whole simplicity of the piano white finish, with the 2 tonearms.
Is it white, Alex? It looks more like grey to me.... Must be my monitor! I guess that one man's "simplicity" is another's bland and non-descript.....
Don't you like real wood, then? :)
From that chap's other photo album:
http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/6960/dsc015631.jpg (http://img835.imageshack.us/i/dsc015631.jpg/)
That's much more like it - a lovely vintage American Rek-O-Kut broadcast T/T with a Gray broadcast tonearm in a simple but solid wooden plinth (with a nice grain) - lurvely! :respect:
Marco.
P.S Does anyone recognise the cartridge?
Hi Barry,
You want 'industrial' - then how about this?
http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy88/barrydhunt/BubGQkQEWkKGrHqEOKiEEvNzIQS99BMTFpt.jpg
Now all you have to do is find a plinth that's in keeping and has that aesthetic savoir faire. And when you have, let me know - the deck shown is mine!
I love it! Is it in full working order, and if so, have you ever compared it to your TD-124?
Btw, what's your view on this:
One wonders how many of the total 401s put into production were "value engineered", and how many were not so and thus built properly; in effect which was the bigger percentage?
If I were a Garrard aficionado, that little 'factoid' of Barry's would completely put me off any of the later "value engineered" 401s, and in fact more likely make me want to buy a 301, and thus be assured of the requisite standards of engineering, as I demand the best.
I'd also like other people's thoughts, as I feel that this observation is rather significant, the implications of which until now I was completely unaware of!
Marco.
Yes I do love real wood (especially zebrano! :eyebrows:) but I just thought that white piano finish (on my laptop!) was different, and really just shows off the lovely engineering of the motor unit and the Grace & Ortofon arms superbly, which was my main reason for choosing that turntable to post. If it's grey then I take it all back! ;)
No I think you're right; it's white with a 'piano' finish. See the edit of my other post and the new picture inserted :)
Marco.
Hi Barry,
I love it! Is it in full working order, and if so, have you ever compared it to your TD-124?
Yes it is, it's in a very heavy, pig-ugly plinth/case, which I want to replace. Comparison with the TD124 is difficult as the EMT arm can only take EMT cartridges, and I am, as you know, unable to swap identical cartridges between the two. With an XSD-15 (spherical tip) in an SME (either 9" or 12") on the Thorens and a TSD-15 (fine line tip) on the EMT is as close as I have been able to compare the two.
Briefly, I would say that the EMT has a very good sense of 'rythmic' drive that the Thorens doesn't. But I wouldn't abandon my TD124/II s - they are just too versatile as well as being very good.
Btw, what's your view on this:
I'd also like other people's thoughts, as I feel that this observation is rather significant, the implications of which until now I was completely unaware of!
Marco.
Will find out more on the latter, later. At the moment I'm in the middle of massive write up of a 'certain cartridge'. ;) I'm only poping in and out of AoS by way of having a break from the magnum opus!
Regards
No worries - I won't hold you back any further then! ;)
I'd definitely like to listen to the EMT when I visit. Guy Sergeant used one recently, and didn't seem to rate it much compared to his SP10, but I don't think he was able to get the best from it due to various issues.
I've always had a huge regard for EMT (as you know I love any high-quality broadcast gear), but have never heard any of their T/Ts, so would like to rectify that.
EMT also made a CDP for broadcast use, that Andre linked to a while back, which I'd also kill to own!
Marco.
DAVEDWACK
19-07-2010, 22:46
Sure do! TD124/II and Quad ESLs - yummy! Lovely looking and I'm sure sounding system you have there Dave.
Regards
Hi Barry/Marco,
Very kind of you. Well of course there's been a few changes from my original photos which were posted in the gallery a couple of years or more ago (time don't 'arf fly when you're a forum lurker:))
I've previously had both a Mission 774/Linn Ittok and OL Silver on the deck but I do feel the Alphason goes rather well, especially since my latest cartridge change of only a few days ago.
Strangely enough, purely by chance I spotted on here where Guy Sergeant had stuck a Technics eps310mc onto one of his decks. Well guess who has one of those in his SL10, yeh me, so last week I moved it over, using one of the crappy plastic brackets to do the conversion from a tp4 type to standard fixing. Blow me it's good, really good, so much so that my AT33ptg (which I've happily been using for over 2 years) has gone on to the classifieds over on another forum and I kid you not the AT is and has been one of the best sounding cartridges I've ever used.
Cheers....Dave
DAVEDWACK
19-07-2010, 23:02
I've got a Rega RB251 arm with the three point Linn fixing, how easy is it to get an arm board for a 124 that would fit?
Hi,
I have a wooden armboard which I used when I had my OL silver which is doing nowt. I guess just the 3 Linn holes would need to be drilled and Bob's yer relative.
You're welcome to it if you can make use of it.
Cheers....Dave
P.S. you can see the armboard in the photos I posted in the gallery a couple of years ago, where it was used with the OL Silver.
The Black Adder
20-07-2010, 08:00
Great, cheers Dave... I think I might have fallen for the TD124 .... awww! - Anyroad, I might have to do a swap for one if possible.
carry on chaps! :)
The Black Adder
20-07-2010, 08:13
Is there anything I need to look for or ask when buying a TD124? - Is there any rotten easter eggs I need to look out for under that platter?
Rare Bird
20-07-2010, 09:13
PM
DAVEDWACK
20-07-2010, 09:39
Is there anything I need to look for or ask when buying a TD124? - Is there any rotten easter eggs I need to look out for under that platter?
Hi,
Well if/when you need the armboard, it's here ready to stick in a jiffy bag for you.
A good place to go check out vintage decks along with the 124 is:"www.soundfountain.com". There's lots of interesting stuff on there regarding what to buy, maintenance etc.
Click on Catalogs/books, scroll down to find the the TD124 page on the right hand side.
Check the deck out at the top of the Thorens 124 page......drool!:)
Cheers...Dave
http://www.soundfountain.com
Going back to the EMT - can the EMT tonearm take a Thorens 150 style headshell? Not ideal I know, but if it fits it may do for basic cartridge checking.
Jimmy Hughes had an EMT cartridge for a while - very neutral and almost CD like in it's lack of colouration. Some may find it a little lacking in "charm" though because of this.
Beobloke
20-07-2010, 11:36
If I were a Garrard aficionado, that little 'factoid' of Barry's would completely put me off any of the later "value engineered" 401s, and in fact more likely make me want to buy a 301, and thus be assured of the requisite standards of engineering, as I demand the best. That's over and above the fact that I prefer 301s from an aesthetic point of view.
What are other people's views on this?
Marco.
Personally, given that even a 'value engineered' 401 would still wipe the floor with a good deal of modern turntables, it wouldn't put me off, esecially as there are so many good specialists around who can fettle them to within an inch of their lives. After all, the basic design was still sound, it was just not implemented as well as it could have been.
I would just ensure that I didn't pay over the odds, and left a good budget for servicing.
The Black Adder
20-07-2010, 12:02
Hi,
Well if/when you need the armboard, it's here ready to stick in a jiffy bag for you.
A good place to go check out vintage decks along with the 124 is:"www.soundfountain.com". There's lots of interesting stuff on there regarding what to buy, maintenance etc.
Click on Catalogs/books, scroll down to find the the TD124 page on the right hand side.
Check the deck out at the top of the Thorens 124 page......drool!:)
Cheers...Dave
http://www.soundfountain.com
Lovely jubbly..
What are you after for the arm board Dave?
I'm going to look at and hopefully pick up a TD124 MKII tonight as a straight swap.
It's been serviced and has the TP-14 but I'm thinking of swapping that to my Rega depending on how it fairs so hopefully it's going to turn out to be a good experience. :)
Any tests or suggestions (regardless of simplicity) regarding my viewing/listening would be great.
DAVEDWACK
20-07-2010, 15:18
Hi,
No I'm not after owt for it at all. I'm extremely unlikely to ever change my current Alphason so it's surplus to requirements. I'd just like it to go somewhere where it'll be used rather than just stuck in my bits box.:)
If you end up doing the swop just PM me your details and I'll get it off to you.
Cheers.....Dave
The Black Adder
20-07-2010, 15:35
oh.. nice one Dave... Thanks very much. :)
I think it's likely as I can't find any info on the TP14 arm. Not sure if it can take other carts.
Flyfisher
21-07-2010, 12:18
I have a problem about people who buy a lenco GL75, rip the arm off and then do all sorts of unspeakables to what's left..
PLEASE try and find a good G88 or 99 before butchering a GL75. Just my plea, but there are still enough 75's around I suppose.
You may still be able to get a good TD135 for this kind of money and the arm should be ok with many modern cartridges. I've even seen alternative headshells used but I don't know if the "SME" standard is suitable (the EMT style one should be I reckon).
TBH, what you should be doing is getting the Orbe kit for your Gyrodeck and making sure the power supply is fully updated. These decks love the better SME tonearms as well and I feel sure that in most respects, an Orbe would out-perform a garrard, unless you like the rumble/motor harmonics playing along with the music (don't care what anyone says, these decks are noisy and it's the way this noise reacts with the music that may just explain why "we" love them so much - the orbe should be fine in terms of pitch stability)
It may be the wrong place for this but I have a Lenco G99 for sale in a beech plinth that weighs 9kgs alone without the G99, and I have made two blank arm boards so it will take a Linn or Rega arm. I don't have any SME experiences so I don't have the measurements but a 3009 arm should be fine.
http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii46/flyfisher_album/tannoy/Philips%20full%20range%20speaker/th_2010_0718_094229-1.jpg (http://s261.photobucket.com/albums/ii46/flyfisher_album/tannoy/Philips%20full%20range%20speaker/?action=view¤t=2010_0718_094229-1.jpg)
Hi Adam,
Personally, given that even a 'value engineered' 401 would still wipe the floor with a good deal of modern turntables, it wouldn't put me off, esecially as there are so many good specialists around who can fettle them to within an inch of their lives. After all, the basic design was still sound, it was just not implemented as well as it could have been.
I understand and agree, especially with the bit in bold :)
However I'm afraid, being a perfectionist, not knowing if I had a 'value engineered' 401 or not would bother me big time, to the extent that I'd have to carry out the necessary research first before buying one to identify whether or not it was such an example.
Or, more realistically, just buy a 301 in the first place which not only would not be 'value engineered', but also look much nicer! ;)
Marco.
I think we would need to establish what the differences are, before getting too hung up about it - maybe Barry can elaborate on what "Value Engineering" actually entailed - if the parts (especially original materials used) are vastly inferior, then I suspect that would be an issue, although if we are talking about tighter tolerances earlier on, or more cosmetic cost cutting (like the name/switch plate) then not so much of a worry. (I believe mine is a later one, having the raised strobe light, but as it was inherited it is of no consequence to me.)
Considering the age of even the youngest 401 these days, I don't think it's an issue at all. Anyone wishing to build one up to be a 'top flight' deck would surely have all the critical parts fully overhauled anyway... I certainly would.
Both 301's and 401's could suffer motor vibration harmonics getting into the cartridge as a high pitched humming sound and I'm not sure a heavy decent plinth is enough to control it, as the motor was spring suspended from the chassis. of course, noone measures these things now as far as I'm aware.
G99's are fantastic decks and again easily servicable. I've got to find that HiFi Sound review from '68 or so, which tested them all (401, TD124 II, G99, TTS3000 - which won out over all of them).
Considering the age of even the youngest 401 these days, I don't think it's an issue at all.
That may be the case, Mike, however some more detail as to exactly what this 'value engineering' entailed is necessary before the matter can be properly judged.
My point, without wishing to dwell on it unnecessarily, is that if I were in the market to buy a Garrard 401, only the best examples would interest me, as clearly there are some differences, and these differences should be put into the public domain to inform potential buyers.
While we're on this subject, could someone tell me what makes a 401 supposedly sonically superior to a 301, in terms of their respective designs, especially when it's now come to light that some 401s may not have been as well engineered as their (301) predecessors?
Marco.
It may be the wrong place for this but I have a Lenco G99 for sale in a beech plinth that weighs 9kgs alone without the G99, and I have made two blank arm boards so it will take a Linn or Rega arm. I don't have any SME experiences so I don't have the measurements but a 3009 arm should be fine.
PM sent
Who said 401's were better? The obvious thing is that the fine-speed control can be centred with a screw adjustment where the top plate linkage meets the spring suspended transfer to the motor mounted brake (I can visualise but not describe properly).
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/garrard401bare.gif
Top left is the motor pulley, top right is main bearing spindle, left hole is pivot for speed brake and right hole allows access to the adjuster scrrew on 401's (fixed on the 301)
The styling is a matter of opinion, but as the 401 was the first "HiFi" grade deck I ever saw as a kid (Where's the arm?), it's this one that gets and retains my affections..
Everyone pays stupid money for grease bearing 301's, yet I read recently that the grease bearing was changed to make it better...
In terms of precision engineering, the TD124 probably comes out tops on these early 60's decks, although the Sony TTS3000 measures best.
Who said 401's were better?
It appears to be the popular consensus of opinion amongst aficionados, Dave. I've never heard the comparison myself, however. Thanks for the info above. We'll see what else comes out of the woodwork in due course :)
Marco.
Stratmangler
21-07-2010, 19:33
Will's 401 in it's slate plinth and home built Schroeder style arm sounded pretty astonishing at the last Owston.
I agree, Chris. It's undoubtedly the best Garrard I've heard. One wonders though what would a 301 be like with the same arm and plinth?
Regarding why a 401 is said to be sonically superior to a 301, I await the definitive answer from a Garrard expert! :)
Marco.
You've had one (flounces off in a huff)...
Back in the 70's, the 301 was regarded as the superior of the two and, as I remember, the 401 varied wildly from sample to sample towards the end. To be fair, modern fettling and 35 years use will have sorted all of this out I'd imagine..
Beobloke
22-07-2010, 07:51
You've had one (flounces off in a huff)...
Hmph. He's had two actually.
*Flounces off to join Dave's huff*
;)
I heard Will 401 once lovelly sounding deck
spendorman
22-07-2010, 08:51
In the 70's I had a 401, unfortunately not a good plinth, probably the reason that I got too much rumble, but my brother has owned a 301 (grease bearing and strobe) since the mid 60's. It's been in continuous use and worked faultlessly. It is in a very good big plinth, his (big) speakers go down very low and rumble is not a problem.
I'm not sure how much of the later 401 issues were down to parts quality or simply slack assembly, more the latter I believe.
The differences I hear betwixt 301 and 401 generally are that the 301 has bigger bass and the 401 has a little extra top end. This could due to the 301 being a little noisier and these are the effects on the sound. Whatever the the potential noise it does not show up as rumble on either deck when they are well fettled but these sonic differences still show up.
I think I agree Clive. The differences were shown up more with the crummy plinths we used too and I suspect most of these rumbling, audible vibration issues would have been automatically minimised by a decent plinth...
I'd happily give a 401 house room, no trouble...
The Black Adder
22-07-2010, 15:48
Well I got my TD124 / MKII and I'm very happy with it. And with the original TP-14 arm.
It's been playing and it's sounding superb. It has the M55E cart with a Shure V-15 stylus. I was used to an Ortofon Rondo Red MC cart with my Gyro and I must admit... I am really struggling to see where £380 goes on a cart when I can get a replacement for the M55E for £20.
I am so very supprised. It's not a worse or better sound, it's a different sound, but crikey this old stylus really cracks open the bass and dynamics.
My amplification kit is Chord running in to Dali speakers.
I don't know.. maybe it's the TP-14 arm? - The arm is in superb nick too, really supprised to see how good condition it's in. There is just a washer on the back that needs replacing but it weighs up perfectly.
As up to now I can see the deck needs a few things doing and as I got it as a project and not a chore so I think it should go swimmingly.
The platter spins nice and smoothly, takes about 40 secs from 33 to 0. Very minumul rumble too, infact hardly any to my ears.
One thing I have heard is a rythmic knocking noise coming from under the platter, this does not seem to transmit through the speakers though, I think it's the rubber idler wheel. I think that sometime in the past it's been left in the engaged position (pressing against the flywheel) and the wheel has been slightly mis-shapen.
Saying that, I'm not worried about that at the moment but any advice on buying a new idler would be superb.
Things to do - stage 1:-
Service the platter main Bearing - There is a light weeping of oil on the base flange - Shopper kit
Lubricate the platter top bearing.
Service the motor - Although it's not making any noise it's one job I think it's time to do - Shopper kit
New mushrooms - As it has none - Shopper
It comes with the original plinth and perspex lid and although it's in a very good reasonable state considering the age it could be re-furbished with minimul effort.
I would like a new plinth like these until I can afford something slate.
I really like this size of plinth as it would fit my rack much better.
If anyone has one going spare do let me know. These are not pics of my deck btw.. my pics will follow
http://www.schopper.ch/static/services/z_top_audio/Neutrik/pics/TD_2005_f.JPG
http://www.schopper.ch/static/services/z_top_audio/Neutrik/pics/TD_2001_c.JPG
http://www.schopper.ch/static/services/z_top_audio/Neutrik/pics/TD_2003_a.JPG
Any help and advice or finding parts to make the above tasks would be a great help!
Pics will follow! :)
Don't Schopper offer this plinth style?
Give the idler and belt a darned good clean, together with a careful clean and lube of the pulleys. That should clear your noises.
The V15II and M55E both have lower treble suckouts and the M55E severe peak is tamed on the later V15II. I wonder if Jico make an SAS stylus for the M55 as they do the superior M75 series. If you don't believe me regarding the M75, try an M75-EJ, which sounds like the favoured (on here) SC35C but with greater finesse at side end - in my experience.
The Black Adder
22-07-2010, 21:18
Yeah, Schopper do these plinths, just wondering if anyone has a simular plinth spare in legacy of an upgrade..
Interesting on the cart... I will experiment with the M75 / EJ too, cheap as chips!
Many thanks Dave!
I bet that Thorens arm can take better these days :)
My 124 is in a very similar plinth, mines home made from a solid block of sycamore, my view is thats enough for the 124..
i've done alot of reading up and i dont recall a majority saying slate is the best for a 124.. but i have not tried it
my plinth sits on a wall mounted slab of yorkstone.. that has made a difference to the sound of all my decks
i have a couple of 301's and a couple of 401's which i'm sure slate can improve.. but there's always trade offs
I bought a second frs64 so i could compare the garards on an even playing field.. but to be honest i like the 124 too much..
one day i'll start the thin the decks out.. i have far too many..
cheers
steve
Nice one. I'll have to own a TD124 mk2 before I'm done...
Well I got my TD124 / MKII and I'm very happy with it. And with the original TP-14 arm.
It's been playing and it's sounding superb. It has the M55E cart with a Shure V-15 stylus. I was used to an Ortofon Rondo Red MC cart with my Gyro and I must admit... I am really struggling to see where £380 goes on a cart when I can get a replacement for the M55E for £20.
I am so very supprised. It's not a worse or better sound, it's a different sound, but crikey this old stylus really cracks open the bass and dynamics.
My amplification kit is Chord running in to Dali speakers.
I don't know.. maybe it's the TP-14 arm? - The arm is in superb nick too, really supprised to see how good condition it's in. There is just a washer on the back that needs replacing but it weighs up perfectly.
As up to now I can see the deck needs a few things doing and as I got it as a project and not a chore so I think it should go swimmingly.
The platter spins nice and smoothly, takes about 40 secs from 33 to 0. Very minimal rumble too, infact hardly any to my ears.
One thing I have heard is a rythmic knocking noise coming from under the platter, this does not seem to transmit through the speakers though, I think it's the rubber idler wheel. I think that sometime in the past it's been left in the engaged position (pressing against the flywheel) and the wheel has been slightly mis-shapen.
Saying that, I'm not worried about that at the moment but any advice on buying a new idler would be superb.
Things to do - stage 1:-
Service the platter main Bearing - There is a light weeping of oil on the base flange - Shopper kit
Lubricate the platter top bearing.
Service the motor - Although it's not making any noise it's one job I think it's time to do - Shopper kit
New mushrooms - As it has none - Shopper
It comes with the original plinth and perspex lid and although it's in a very good reasonable state considering the age it could be re-furbished with minimul effort.
I would like a new plinth like these until I can afford something slate.
I really like this size of plinth as it would fit my rack much better.
If anyone has one going spare do let me know. These are not pics of my deck btw.. my pics will follow
http://www.schopper.ch/static/services/z_top_audio/Neutrik/pics/TD_2005_f.JPG
http://www.schopper.ch/static/services/z_top_audio/Neutrik/pics/TD_2001_c.JPG
http://www.schopper.ch/static/services/z_top_audio/Neutrik/pics/TD_2003_a.JPG
Any help and advice or finding parts to make the above tasks would be a great help!
Pics will follow! :)
Nice one - the Thorens 124/II is an excellent deck.
The Thorens is worthy of a much better arm than the TP-14. Good though it is, if you decide to retain the Thorens arm, you will be limited to using the Thorens headshell, which has its own unique bayonet fixing.
40 seconds to come to a complete standstill from 33 1/3rpm is good and shows the bearing is in good condition. The figure to aim for is > 45s which will be achieved with a bearing re-lube, but 40s is good. Only use genuine Thorens oil, available from Schopper.
Replace the idler wheel! These can be obtained from Schopper - at a price, but are cheaper here than on ebay.
Whilst you are shopping at Schopper (:lol:), get yourself a spare drive belt along with the idler wheel.
You will also need a set of four cupped washers to go with the rubber 'mushroom' mounts.
You seem to know what needs to be done and are on the right track. Schopper are very professional and are good people to deal with. I have bought quite a few spares from them - I have three Thorens 124/II s.
Best of luck with the refurbishment. Let us know how you get on.
Regards
I agree, Chris. It's undoubtedly the best Garrard I've heard. One wonders though what would a 301 be like with the same arm and plinth?
Regarding why a 401 is said to be sonically superior to a 301, I await the definitive answer from a Garrard expert! :)
Marco.
Not a definitive answer, but this may help:
http://www.garrard501.com/FAQ_301_401.html.
The research continues .............
Regards
My view on the rumble issues is even though you cannot hear it through the speakers it will still act as a veil to ultimate performance (Please bear in mind I still love what Idliers do) The more you can deal with rumble issues the better the performance
The "rumble" isn't really in the bearing once the plinths are sorted out. It's more to do with motor harmonics further up.
In the case of the 301 and 401, it could be a higher pitched bass "hum," but in the case of the 124, Lenco's and the Dual 1229 I owned, it was a very faint midrange "whine" almost, well down in the surface noise to be fair, but once noticed, easy to "tune in" on. Belt drives like the Thorens/Linn and the better direct drives don't have this, but may have other, different issues ;)
You could be right Dave I never considered that
The "rumble" isn't really in the bearing once the plinths are sorted out. It's more to do with motor harmonics further up.
In the case of the 301 and 401, it could be a higher pitched bass "hum," but in the case of the 124, Lenco's and the Dual 1229 I owned, it was a very faint midrange "whine" almost, well down in the surface noise to be fair, but once noticed, easy to "tune in" on. Belt drives like the Thorens/Linn and the better direct drives don't have this, but may have other, different issues ;)
I agree Dave, this is what I was thinking of when I commented earlier about noise that doesn't show up as rumble.
The Black Adder
24-07-2010, 11:53
Nice one - the Thorens 124/II is an excellent deck.
The Thorens is worthy of a much better arm than the TP-14. Good though it is, if you decide to retain the Thorens arm, you will be limited to using the Thorens headshell, which has its own unique bayonet fixing.
40 seconds to come to a complete standstill from 33 1/3rpm is good and shows the bearing is in good condition. The figure to aim for is > 45s which will be achieved with a bearing re-lube, but 40s is good. Only use genuine Thorens oil, available from Schopper.
Replace the idler wheel! These can be obtained from Schopper - at a price, but are cheaper here than on ebay.
Whilst you are shopping at Schopper (:lol:), get yourself a spare drive belt along with the idler wheel.
You will also need a set of four cupped washers to go with the rubber 'mushroom' mounts.
You seem to know what needs to be done and are on the right track. Schopper are very professional and are good people to deal with. I have bought quite a few spares from them - I have three Thorens 124/II s.
Best of luck with the refurbishment. Let us know how you get on.
Regards
Cheers Barry.
Yeah, I've been looking for a new idler wheel but Schopper says they are out of stock of these. Have you any idea where I can get a new idler wheel from?
I've been in touch with Steve at theanalogdept and he has offered me a full service kit so I'll go with that I think. Resonably priced too.
Regarding the TP-14, I've given it a good service as the back end of the arm was starting to droop due to perished washers, looks like new, sounds great. I do agree though, the deck could do with a decent arm. I have my RB251 sitting here so I may just get that put on with thanks from Dave for the arm board.
I'll definately keep this updated
:)
"40 seconds to come to a complete standstill from 33 1/3rpm is good and shows the bearing is in good condition. The figure to aim for is > 45s which will be achieved with a bearing re-lube, but 40s is good. Only use genuine Thorens oil, available from Schopper.
"
The Thorens "Crown" oil is in fact EP80 grade gear oil and smelt very similar. Of course, Thorens may have developed something better now.
I haven't a clue what's in my 125, but the chap before me filled the housing a la Linn and the platter takes 75 seconds to come to rest, a result I was delighted with.
Hi Dave,
I only recommended 'Thorens' oil as I know the performance of a bearing depends to a large extent on the type of lubricating oil used.
If you think that the Thorens oil is identical or very similar to EP80, then that will surely be an acceptable substitute - and no doubt a lot cheaper!
I trust I haven't started a "mine takes longer to slow down than yours" competition. Length isn't everything! :eyebrows: Though 75s for your Linn is very impressive.
Despite sniffy remarks made about the ball race bearing on the Garrard SP25, the platter did take over a minute to slow down to rest. Well it on my sample.
Another parameter that we can all worry about and play the one-upmanship game, is the time taken to reach full and steady speed. Good direct drives need take only 1/4 revolution. I think for the TD124 it's more like 10 seconds.
Pleased to see your new avatar. Did I have any influence in that, or was it a case of great minds revisiting a classic cartridge?
Regards
I can't remember which Thorens dedicated site I read it on, but the Royal Crown whatever it was is actually a gear oil apparently, hence my recommendation. Thirty years ago, engine oil or 3 in 1 wasn't viscous enough apparently.
What's confusing now is that there are two grades of EP80; one for gearboxes and one for differentials. Any thoughts?
The Black Adder
24-07-2010, 20:58
I'd hazard a guess that they are the same, or near as damn it. The one for gearboxes maybe simply for a straight gearbox without the diff selector? I know that some ZF gearboxes have two oils, one for diff and one for gears. Saying that, the gear oil is under pressure whilst the diff is not... I think.
Does anyone know where to buy this oil from in the UK?
Seeing as I'm going to be servicing the motor and the main spindal bearing, how much oil would I need as the brass bushings and felts in the motor need to be soaked in oil too. Also how much oil would I need to put in the spindal shaft?
I ask as the oil that schopper looks like it won't go very far.
I was in Halfords this afternoon....................... The one "we" need is the one that deals with higher pressure as the point at the bottom of the bearing needs to be kept as lubricated and cool as possible I understand.
The Black Adder
25-07-2010, 08:30
Halfords sell it!?? :)
Steve at The Audio Dept said it's turbine oil, no idea where I'd buy that from.
I expect you find that Castrol EPX 80W90 differential oil would be fine. Halfords do sell, it's where I got mine from (for Garrard use).
spendorman
25-07-2010, 08:34
Halfords sell it!?? :)
Steve at The Audio Dept said it's turbine oil, no idea where I'd buy that from.
Possibly Edwards
Edwards High Vacuum Equipment
Seeing as I'm going to be servicing the motor and the main spindal bearing, how much oil would I need as the brass bushings and felts in the motor need to be soaked in oil too. Also how much oil would I need to put in the spindal shaft?
Joe, the oil the in the motor bearings is different to the oil in the plater bearing. Since the motor rotates at a higher rpm, it needs a thinner, less viscous lubrication. Ask Schopper for their advice. Also the bearing of the idler wheel is greased; don't use oil. The bearing of the speed change pulley uses the same lubrication as that of the motor.
From memory I think 1cc of lubricant is sufficient for the platter bearing shaft.
Again, may I direct you to the article on Thorens turntables in the AoS Library, wherein there are links to specialist sites on the refurbishment and fettling of TD124s.
Possibly Edwards
Edwards High Vacuum Equipment
No need to go for 'high vacuum' oil - it's expensive as, not surprisingly, it is formulated to have a very low vapour pressure.
Regards
spendorman
25-07-2010, 17:11
Joe, the oil the in the motor bearings is different to the oil in the plater bearing. Since the motor rotates at a higher rpm, it needs a thinner, less viscous lubrication. Ask Schopper for their advice. Also the bearing of the idler wheel is greased; don't use oil. The bearing of the speed change pulley uses the same lubrication as that of the motor.
From memory I think 1cc of lubricant is sufficient for the platter bearing shaft.
Again, may I direct you to the article on Thorens turntables in the AoS Library, wherein there are links to specialist sites on the refurbishment and fettling of TD124s.
No need to go for 'high vacuum' oil - it's expensive as, not surprisingly, it is formulated to have a very low vapour pressure.
Regards
But there is Turbo oil, may be similar or the same as 'Turbine oil' not just ordinary high vacuum oil. A supplier of Turbine oil was requested. From memory, I would think that the turbo oil that I used (for turbo's years ago), would be too thin for turntable bearings.
Have just followed my own advice and looked at the AoS Library article. The following should be of interest to you:
http://homepage2.nifty.com/pantone/thorens/lubricant.htm.
The author is of similar opinion to me: whereas Thorens state that the same lubricant is used in both the motor and platter bearing, a less viscous oil can be used in the motor bearings and hence also in that of the stepped speed change pulley.
According to the above mentioned link, the oil recommended by Thorens is Royal Crown B. I'll have to find the operating instructions for the 124 and see what it says there.
Regards
spendorman
25-07-2010, 17:17
Have just followed my own advice and looked at the AoS Library article. The following should be of interest to you:
http://homepage2.nifty.com/pantone/thorens/lubricant.htm.
The author is of similar opinion to me: whereas Thorens state that the same lubricant is used in both the motor and platter bearing, a less viscous oil can be used in the motor bearings and hence also in that of the stepped speed change pulley.
According to the above mentioned link, the oil recommended by Thorens is Royal Crown B. I'll have to find the operating instructions for the 124 and see what it says there.
Regards
Somewhere, I have the instructions for my TD124 II
Cheers Paul.
Last one to find their operating instructions buys the drinks! :lol:
Regards
spendorman
25-07-2010, 17:25
Think that I've lost already
How do you know? It could take me some time to find mine.
spendorman
25-07-2010, 17:43
How do you know? It could take me some time to find mine.
Unfortunately, I have something else that is very important to do just now. Andr'e will know what it is!
spendorman
25-07-2010, 19:54
I failed to find the TD124 instructions (must be somewhere), did find TD166 (late ish Mk) instructions and that did not seem to refer to any oils.
I know nothing much about oils, but surely a synthetic (as against mineral) will retain its viscosity better over temperature changes, thus giving better stability of speed.
The Black Adder
25-07-2010, 21:41
lol.. come on lads...your slacking! lol :)
I can't find it either... haha
The TD125 instructions specify "Caltex Regal Oil B" for the main bearing, which is now Texaco from what I can see by Googling.
I now believe the above oil to be a turbine oil, but cannot say how much more viscous EP80 actually is. The bearings with slop certainly need a thicker viscous oil, but ordinary or synthetic engine oil isn't recommended from what I can see...
DAVEDWACK
25-07-2010, 22:53
Joe,
TURNTABLE SPINDLE: Caltex or Texaco Regal Oil B (ROB).
STEPPED PULLEY: 4 to 6 drops of our special ROG oil into the well
V.MOTOR:
Upper/Lower bearing: a few drops of ROB oil
Recommended oil: If the indicated Texaco or ROB is not available, use a non-oxidising, non sticking, high-grade light mineral oil (SAE 20)
The above is taken directly from the TD 124 serie 11 manual and I believe you should be able to download it from Thesoundfountain or there's a link in there somewhere.
Cheers.......Dave
Yes - I've found my 'manual', and agree with Dave.
It would seem that the Thorens oil: Caltex or Texaco Regal Oil B (ROB), is used for everything:
1. Turntable spindle (shaft)
2. Idler wheel (2 to 3 drops)
3. Stepped pulley (4 to 6 drops)
4. Motor (Upper bearing, a few drops. Lower bearing, a few drops via the hole in the side of the bottom motor shield.)
Apologies for any misinformation regarding greasing the idler wheel bearing. I read this off another site.
Regards
DAVEDWACK
26-07-2010, 13:56
Hi Barry,
The manual does actually mention the use of "ROG" as opposed to "ROB" oil for the Idler Wheel and the Stepped Pulley.
Dunno know whether this is a typo or not (I suspect not since it's mentioned twice) but I've no idea what ROG is, perhaps somebody else knows.
Nevertheless if Joe's ordered a Maintenance kit I would have expected it to include the correct oil, I know the kit I bought from Joel Boutreaux a few years back included pretty much everything required for a basic service.
Cheers.....Dave
The Black Adder
26-07-2010, 15:34
as mensioned by Dave just there. I've just ordered a kit from Joel Boutreaux. It comes with 2 types of oil apparently so hopefully it should be fine. Finding the correct oil is important though and I'll keep looking for other sources.
Ok... I have another question for you all if I may.
My deck needs a suppressor as the switching makes a loud popping noise. I'm not a man who knows much about electronics so can anyone tell me where this suppressor actually goes?
I've looked on some other forums but it doesn't go in to the actual detail of where this fits.
My other question is I've got a suppressor kit I ordered from Russ Andrews about a year ago to stop my freezer making much the same sort of popping noise only to find that I didn't need it after all as I changed my system. I fitted the VDR to the plug but this didn't do anything.
Anyway, the suppressor is still here, it looks identical to the one on Schopper (to look at) and here are the values:-
RIFA
PMR 209 MC
40/085/56/B
RC-UNIT
250 V~ SH
100n+47R X2
Can anyone let me know if this would work as a suppressor on my deck? - I thought I'd ask as it's meant for the same job in a way.
as mensioned by Dave just there. I've just ordered a kit from Joel Boutreaux. It comes with 2 types of oil apparently so hopefully it should be fine. Finding the correct oil is important though and I'll keep looking for other sources.
Ok... I have another question for you all if I may.
My deck needs a suppressor as the switching makes a loud popping noise. I'm not a man who knows much about electronics so can anyone tell me where this suppressor actually goes?
I've looked on some other forums but it doesn't go in to the actual detail of where this fits.
My other question is I've got a suppressor kit I ordered from Russ Andrews about a year ago to stop my freezer making much the same sort of popping noise only to find that I didn't need it after all as I changed my system. I fitted the VDR to the plug but this didn't do anything.
Anyway, the suppressor is still here, it looks identical to the one on Schopper (to look at) and here are the values:-
RIFA
PMR 209 MC
40/085/56/B
RC-UNIT
250 V~ SH
100n+47R X2
Can anyone let me know if this would work as a suppressor on my deck? - I thought I'd ask as it's meant for the same job in a way.
Yes that'll do nicely. If you still have the original suppressor fitted (it looks like a short yellow cylinder about 15mm long by about 8mm dia. with black axial leads), then replace it with the RIFA device.
It is fitted literally across the switch contacts, underneath a brown SRBP cover (you need to remove the circlip to get at the contacts. Be careful when you solder the suppressor, otherwise the thick mains wires will become detached. I speak from experience as I have replaced the suppressor on one of my 124s.
The manual does actually mention the use of "ROG" as opposed to "ROB" oil for the Idler Wheel and the Stepped Pulley.
Dunno know whether this is a typo or not (I suspect not since it's mentioned twice) but I've no idea what ROG is, perhaps somebody else knows.
Hi Dave,
I hadn't noticed that, but the same 'typo' appears in my copy of the manual. I'm confused as a Texaco Royal Oil G does/did exist. I have great faith in Schopper and they sell just the one Thorens oil. The Joel Boutreaux kit is not known to me. Can you tell me more?
Regards
The Black Adder
26-07-2010, 17:52
Nice one Barry... Glad I kept it now :)
fyi - Joel used to be a Thorens employee, he wrote this:-
http://www.vinylengine.com/images/forum/thorens.pdf
I think this is a typo, since on page 16 in the "manual for the THORENS model TD 124 SERIE II transcription turntable", we read (quoted exactly as printed):
Recommended oil. If the indicated Caltex or Texaco Regal Oil B (as used for hydraulic power transmissions) is not available, use a non-oxidising, non sticking, high-grade light mineral oil (SAE 20). A lubrication kit with recommended lubricants is available as accessory upon request.
Regards
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