Changing from a valve amp to SS integrated .....

[CrillboBaggins]

Morning all,

So after various discussions with my Wife and the constant niggling I decided to downsize NOT downgrade my amp(s).

My current amp is EAR Yoshino 890 with Townshend Allegri + pre. It sounds great and I love it but I’m after a one box amp that I can change the volume on remotely and don’t have to wait as much for it to warm up.

So after speaking to various dealers and other forum mates I narrowed it down to either a Norma Revo IPA40 or Sugden Masterclass IA4.

The Norma I’ve heard and it’s stunning to my ears, different to my EAR 890 but great from a cold start, remote volume, my Wife likes the look of it and it reduces a box and gives a little more room (not much admittedly) it ticks all the boxes.

My question is what are people’s opinions on the Sugden as a comparison as I’m going to struggle to get anywhere to listen to one for a while ? Also I’m not familiar with the house sound.

[Pharos]

I know I'll be flamed for this, but IMO most SS amps are so good that they are really nearly devoid of a house sound, but with my experiences of valve gear through the decades, they do have character.

[Haselsh1]

Am I correct in assuming the Sugden is Class A..? If that is the case then I am going to assume the obvious based on experience and say that it will have a certain character also. I love Class A amps and their sound. Whatever you do I wish you luck.

[Lawrence001]

I know I'll be flamed for this, but IMO most SS amps are so good that they are really nearly devoid of a house sound, but with my experiences of valve gear through the decades, they do have character.I'd say some SS amps. Possibly most class AB once you get to high price levels which I know Sugden Masterclass are getting towards (well high for me anyway [emoji38]). Class D I won't comment on as I only had Ice Power and found it didn't let the music flow as I like. Ditto high end Class A.

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[Edward]

I very agree with Dennis (Pharos) with the caveat that it is very much preamp dependant. Assuming a decent valve power amp the end result will/can be utterly transformed by what preamp is used.

Not heard the Norma integrated but have a Sugden "Aztec" Masterclass IA (kindly brought up to IA4 2018 spec by Sugden). Not sure I would say it has a 'house sound' but in any event wonderful in terms of engagement and transparency. At 'switch on' the sound is nearly perfect, after a few minutes it becomes perfect.

Good luck in your decision Luke.

[AJSki2fly]

Morning all,

So after various discussions with my Wife and the constant niggling I decided to downsize NOT downgrade my amp(s).

My current amp is EAR Yoshino 890 with Townshend Allegri + pre. It sounds great and I love it but I’m after a one box amp that I can change the volume on remotely and don’t have to wait as much for it to warm up.



Just a thought instead of moving to an SS have you considered one of these, both have remote volume control and line switching. I run an T1500 mk2 and it sounds superb, very transparent colouration wise, and once valves bedded in does not take long to warm up. They are not that well known here in the UK but are extremely good IMO and very good VFM.

http://allnicaudio.com/product/t-1500-mk2/

http://allnicaudio.com/product/t-2000-25th/

Lotus HiFi are the main dealer in UK and are very helpful.

[Macca]

At that price level I'd get both of them in on home demo for at least a week. There's probably very little between them but you can never be sure of that once in the real world and connected up to some speakers.

Sugden have never made a poor amplifier and the Norma is impressive on paper.

[hifinutt]

The sugden 1a4 is very well known and easily available s/h for about 2.2-2.4k . loads of stuff on them. superb back up from yorkshire based company . My a21se had a small fault and was fixed very efficiently . very low noise floor , incredible dynamics . that would be my choice

Now the norma is gathering speed in being known , a harbeth reviewer recently did a review in hifi critic . i still am VERY nervous of buying stuff that is not mainstream

[anthonyTD]

Noooooooooooooooo!:eek: :lol:
Seriously though, there are many decent solid state amps out there to choose from, just take your time, and get something you can live with long term.
Good luck with your quest :)
A...

[struth]

hybrid patheos

[CrillboBaggins]

Thanks everyone.

I’ll let you know how I get on ........

[Pharos]

I'd say some SS amps. Possibly most class AB once you get to high price levels which I know Sugden Masterclass are getting towards (well high for me anyway [emoji38]). Class D I won't comment on as I only had Ice Power and found it didn't let the music flow as I like. Ditto high end Class A.

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I'm interested in your views on Icepower, I'm struggling with actives powered by it.

[cuddles]

You can contact Fanthorpes in Hull. They sent me a Sugden for a home demo. Fantastic, helpful service.

https://www.fanthorpes.co.uk/

[Lawrence001]

I'm interested in your views on Icepower, I'm struggling with actives powered by it.They had all the power you'd ever need and seemed to deliver the music correctly in a technical sense (albeit a bit of a roll off evident in the treble, may have been related to their low input impedance, but I played with buffers to no avail) but they never moved me in an emotional sense.

Hard to put my finger on, but may have partly been due to a lack of depth to the soundstage.

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[CrillboBaggins]

You can contact Fanthorpes in Hull. They sent me a Sugden for a home demo. Fantastic, helpful service.

https://www.fanthorpes.co.uk/

Great stuff,

I’ll send Marc an email, I didn’t know he did this.

Thanks

[walpurgis]

I sent you a PM that needs prompt attention Luke. Thanks.

[Audio Al]

Morning all,

So after various discussions with my Wife and the constant niggling I decided to downsize NOT downgrade my amp(s).

My current amp is EAR Yoshino 890 with Townshend Allegri + pre. It sounds great and I love it but I’m after a one box amp that I can change the volume on remotely and don’t have to wait as much for it to warm up.

So after speaking to various dealers and other forum mates I narrowed it down to either a Norma Revo IPA40 or Sugden Masterclass IA4.

The Norma I’ve heard and it’s stunning to my ears, different to my EAR 890 but great from a cold start, remote volume, my Wife likes the look of it and it reduces a box and gives a little more room (not much admittedly) it ticks all the boxes.

My question is what are people’s opinions on the Sugden as a comparison as I’m going to struggle to get anywhere to listen to one for a while ? Also I’m not familiar with the house sound.

You could concider changing the wife for a more accommodating model :D

[Filterlab]

You could concider changing the wife for a more accommodating model :D

Her: “It’s me or the Hi-Fi”.

Me: “Close the door quietly on your way out”.

[Audio Al]

Her: “It’s me or the Hi-Fi”.

Me: “Close the door quietly on your way out”. :lol:

Me I have the cases ready for you , Let me know what time to book the Taxi :D

[Flo]

I went from 300b to class A, I still find most class A amps take 20 to 40 mins to warm up, including sugden having owned two.
I heard the crayon integrated, it was awesome for the money, speaker sensitive tho I found. And job 225 int,which gelled well with my Obx rw, Odd but true.
What about something by nelson pass, pass labs do some great integrated stuff.
What are speakers?

[CrillboBaggins]

I went from 300b to class A, I still find most class A amps take 20 to 40 mins to warm up, including sugden having owned two.
I heard the crayon integrated, it was awesome for the money, speaker sensitive tho I found. And job 225 int,which gelled well with my Obx rw, Odd but true.
What about something by nelson pass, pass labs do some great integrated stuff.
What are speakers?

Hi Laurie,

Speakers are Totem Sttaf

[Flo]

No experience of totem, but personally I would try pass labs, xa or int, s\h as imports cost, or s\h mk1 vitus r100, not class A but smooth rich and easy to forget .

[oldius]

Is the right thing to do!

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[macspur]

I used to own a Masterclass IA4 and it's a beautiful sounding amp, the closest thing to valves that you'll hear, but it does run pretty toasty
Mac

[walpurgis]

I used to own a Masterclass IA4 and it's a beautiful sounding amp, the closest thing to valves that you'll hear, but it does run pretty toasty
Mac

What does a valve amp sound like then?

The perfect solid state amplifier and the perfect valve amplifier should be indistinguishable from each other. If you hear 'character' from either, that's due to flawed design. But as nothing is perfect, you will perceive differences.

[AJSki2fly]

What does a valve amp sound like then?

The perfect solid state amplifier and the perfect valve amplifier should be indistinguishable from each other. If you hear 'character' from either, that's due to flawed design. But as nothing is perfect, you will perceive differences.

I completely agree Geoff. In between 300b tube amps a friend lent me his £2K SS Vincent amp, I had no real expectations on how it would perform, just happy to have some music whist waiting for my new amp to be built and delivered. The Vincent was actually a bit of a shock for me, very neutral, did not seem to emphasise one aspect or the audible frequency range and just produced good musical sounds. In fact when my new amp turned up and had bedded in for about 50+ hours, I did some back to beck listening and to be honest it was difficult to hear much difference between the two. If you pressed me the bass end was possibly slightly tighter with the Vincent, and the Allnic 300b had a slightly more natural sound to the mid-range, or it did sound like that to me.

Also the other difficulty is actually knowing when your system is reproducing a recording as it was and is meant to be heard, in other words what the musicians and producer wanted when it was originally produced. this IMO is a very difficult one to address, all you can do is try and select recordings that are very transparent and it is well documented how it was recorded.

A couple of recordings are Cowboy Junkies - Cowboy Junkies - The Trinity Session effectively recorded live in a church to 4 track tape recorder (I think) using and omni-directional mic and one for the vocalist, the band was arranged around the mic in the centre. Then there are the original Eva Cassidy recordings called Nightbird, these were recorded live in a jazz club onto a mobile recording deck. Another record I have and regularly use as a test/set up is Ravi Shankar - Portrait of Genius, apart form being superb musically it is obvious when you listen to it was recorded with no more that 2 mics in front of the band and they just laid it down live, the good thing about this album is all the instruments are natural and so how you would expect them to sound from your own terms of reference can be taken into account when considering how a system is reproducing it.

I am sure there must be some very good classical records which do the same and if you are na avid classical fan and have heard an orchestra play it live will have an appreciation of how you would like it to sound from a hifi system.


One thought that just occurred to me Luke(CrilboBaggins) if he has not already decided what SS to have might want to have a listen to a suitably priced Vincent new or used. they are seriously good amps and great VFM. https://www.vincentshop.co.uk/SolidLine The SV-234 I had on loan was superb and if I had to downsize in terms of cost of system would probably go and find one of these or a SV-238MK.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VINCENT-SV-238-Class-A-Intergrated-stereo-amplifier-/254690981248

[walpurgis]

I came to the conclusion that for my listening solid state Class A amplifiers are generally best suited, simply because they seem to 'interfere' less with what I'm listening to. Although strangely, I don't currently possess one. It's not an absolute rule though.

I was actually quite tempted by the Sugden A21aP that just sold in the Private Exhibitions section :).

[Haselsh1]

My personal best when it came to valves was a World Audio Design 300B PP with matching KLP-1 preamp. Still the best sound from an amp I have ever owned. Airy, spacious and totally believable midband. Unfortunately though, as with all of my valve amps, not really suited to my music. That is why I am now sorted with Class A tranny power.

[Haselsh1]

I came to the conclusion that for my listening solid state Class A amplifiers are generally best suited,

:thumbsup:

[Flo]

I mucked around for years trying to find my perfect 300bse amp, in the end best valve amp was class A trannies. Also stops me endlessly fannying around with different tubes.
Vitus is as they say the solid state kondo.

[Haselsh1]

LOL, I'd forgotten all of the 'fannying' around with different valve types in the hope that I'd suddenly find the Holy Grail which of course I never did. My old WAD 300B was a push pull amp in class A with no feedback unless you opted for it. On one occasion I had it hooked up to Triangle Zephyrs, bloody sublime but then changed to Castle Harlechs which were totally unsuitable. When it came to re-valving four 300B's I decided to sell it on. Fab sound but seriously flawed in other areas.

Today I had a now rare Prog session listening to the entire Lamb Lies Down On Broadway using the LDR passive and Usher power. OK, the power needs a 60 minute warm up but Christ it sounds amazing. Class A tranny with a hefty power consumption and seriously amazing sound. Bass definition is sublime.

Maybe next I'll change the preamp. Valves anyone..?

[Pharos]

Perhaps a bit off topic, but this evening after a day of despair at my speakers' performance, I listened to Cerys Matthews' Blues Show, and I couldn't ask for more, even on very old recordings and from FM, and using Icepower amps.

Such a relief, I was thinking I would have to acquire Vivid Giya G1 spirits, by hook or by crook.

[Flo]

The only valves I can fxxxx around with are in phono stage, 2 pairs of ec88 and ec83 and I still look for perfect set, using rocking horse Rair 1950s seimens Long plates and 1957 ecc88, torches the teles I also have. Now looking for a 2nd issue 1953 amperex 12ax7 to match one I have. Two years still looking.