View Full Version : What the F**k is going on in this country?
AJSki2fly
11-08-2020, 07:23
My nephew, who is 30 and not political, posted a reference to this on Facebook, he couldn’t believe it and neither could I, absolutely incredible might as well offer him a post in MI6 and be done with it.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sir-ian-botham-a-brother-and-brexiteers-boris-johnsons-peerage-list-revealed-kh87sqqxm?fbclid=IwAR2c58vSgmx4pU92cHeCYsqRaZ25tgm akOmGYBuBD_ZfomQ2FF6al3Zm-iA
walpurgis
11-08-2020, 07:35
Are people of Russian descent different in a way that makes them unworthy?
Some of mixed heritage might take exception to this idea.
Wakefield Turntables
11-08-2020, 07:58
Mixed heritage. You mean every individual on earth then?
walpurgis
11-08-2020, 07:58
Mixed heritage. You mean every individual on earth then?
There you go.
Mock outrage is the new black (lives matter).
link didnt work for me... and no, not everyone is of mixed heritage.. Heritage is the full range of our inherited traditions, monuments, objects, and culture. Just because we are a mix of anglos, saxons, vikings, romans etc doesnt mean they are our heritage..:ner:
walpurgis
11-08-2020, 08:21
and no, not everyone is of mixed heritage..
I guess I am. Neither of my parents coming from the country I am in and both coming from different countries.
AJSki2fly
11-08-2020, 08:26
Are people of Russian descent different in a way that makes them unworthy?
Some of mixed heritage might take exception to this idea.
It’s not a heritage issue, which I think you know? We have just had an official report warning of too much involvement from Russia within our society and in positions of influence and power, and yet we have this happening, somewhat questionable I would say!
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walpurgis
11-08-2020, 08:57
Mock outrage is the new black (lives matter).
You may have hit on something there.
Doling out peerages to "the great and the good" (ie people who have been useful/may be useful in the future) has been going on for years - what do you expect when we are talking about an unelected house.
By the way his family own newspapers - very useful :lol:
Mock outrage is the new black (lives matter).
Yes, but it's precisely this is the short of shite I was on about to you the other day:
Boris Johnson has faced accusations of cronyism after handing peerages to the newspaper owner Evgeny Lebedev, several Tory grandees and Brexiteers, and his own brother.
The prime minister has nominated several of his close allies, including Sir Eddie Lister, his chief strategic adviser, and the Tory donor Michael Spencer. Mr Johnson’s brother, Jo, who dealt him a blow last year by resigning from his cabinet, will also receive a peerage.
Fucking 'jobs for your pals', 'old boys network' PISH... It's fundamentally wrong and needs ERADICATED, and such decisions instead put into the hands of the people!
Marco.
We have just had an official report warning of too much involvement from Russia within our society and in positions of influence and power, and yet we have this happening, somewhat questionable I would say!
Indeed!
It stinks to high heaven.
Marco.
Yes, but it's precisely this is the short of shite I was on about to you the other day:
Fucking 'jobs for your pals', 'old boys network' PISH... It's fundamentally wrong and needs ERADICATED, and such decisions instead put into the hands of the people!
Marco.
But hold on a second. The last time that the decision was put in the hands of 'the people', they voted to leave the EU. And everyone who wasn't happy with the decision of 'the people' decided that 'the people' were stupid and racist.
'The people' also voted Trump in, but there seems to be a lot of similar complaints about 'the people' after that little bit of democracy in action too. I think the 'right on' types calling for more direct democracy should probably reconsider their position.
It’s not a heritage issue, which I think you know? We have just had an official report warning of too much involvement from Russia within our society and in positions of influence and power, and yet we have this happening, somewhat questionable I would say!
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But the report didn't say anything of the sort. In fact the complaints about the report were that it didn't investigate Russian influence.
But it turns out that the supposed Russian influence that should have been investigated boiled down to some posts on Twitter which some people actually seem to believe were what tipped the Brexit referendum over the edge. Well there's none so blind as those who will not see.
Poor old KGB, if they'd only had Twitter back in the 1960s we'd all now be typing in Cyrillic and driving back to our crumbling apartment blocks in our Trabants to get pissed on home-made vodka.
......................... in our Trabants to get pissed on home-made vodka.
I think that most people would still be on the waiting list for one :)
But hold on a second. The last time that the decision was put in the hands of 'the people', they voted to leave the EU. And everyone who wasn't happy with the decision of 'the people' decided that 'the people' were stupid and racist.
'The people' also voted Trump in, but there seems to be a lot of similar complaints about 'the people' after that little bit of democracy in action too. I think the 'right on' types calling for more direct democracy should probably reconsider their position.
That's not my issue, though. Last time you said the point of the HoL was to 'temper' over-exuberant authoritarian behaviour by the government, so is that noble notion best served by filling it with 'Boris's best buddies', as appears to be the case?
They simply won't be impartial, therefore completely incapable of 'tempering' anything, and so aren't fit for purpose!
Marco.
I think that most people would still be on the waiting list for one :)
Good point. I was assuming a 'best case' scenario. :D
Fancy answering my last post?:)
Marco.
I'll give a solid "so?"
I'm in the US... things are little more spicy, over here, right now.
What's the Trumpster been up to then?:)
Marco.
Uh there was an incident with a secret service getting shot, not sure on details. Riots going on for over 2 months in some places... Annoying pointless crap like grocery stores having only 1 door open? (to make sure people breath around each other more????) and you can eat out at a restaurant without a mask on but have to wear it to the table you sit at???? We've gone crazy, in so many ways.
That's not my issue, though. Last time you said the point of the HoL was to 'temper' over-exuberant authoritarian behaviour by the government, so is that noble notion best served by filling it with 'Boris's best buddies', as appears to be the case?
They simply won't be impartial, therefore completely incapable of 'tempering' anything, and so aren't fit for purpose!
Marco.
Lords aren't necessarily meant to be impartial. The majority of them represent their political party in the Lords. Boris put some mates in there because a) all Prime Ministers do that and are expected to do it. b) He had very few if any pals there beforehand.
And no-one is ever or can ever be completely 'impartial'.
Ok, but you said earlier that one of the jobs of the HoL was to curb the authoritarian excesses of the government, so how is that likely to be achieved if they represent the same political party as the prime minister?:scratch:
I understand that no-one can ever be totally impartial, but at least a bit more impartial than either a personal friend of the PM, or a Tory. Essentially, I simply can't see how what you've said is a core function of the HoL could possibly play out in practice, given the existence of said Tory bias...
One thing's for sure, it'd be a damn sight more impartial if the HoL were populated instead by members of the British people who had no leanings towards the government in power and/or weren't a buddy of the PM, which is why I've said all along that the HoL is a joke and simply an outdated 'old boy's network', rife with cronyism, and which simply isn't fit for the purpose - at least not what you've outlined!
Marco.
AJSki2fly
11-08-2020, 20:53
Lords aren't necessarily meant to be impartial. The majority of them represent their political party in the Lords. Boris put some mates in there because a) all Prime Ministers do that and are expected to do it. b) He had very few if any pals there beforehand.
And no-one is ever or can ever be completely 'impartial'.
I never really put Conservatism and Communism side by side, but then I suppose they have similarities in the extreme[emoji33]
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Rewards for friends has been going on since 1066 in this country, probably even earlier.
" Fight with your King & I'll give you Northumberland or Scotland as your reward "
Old news
Ok, but you said earlier that one of the jobs of the HoL was to curb the authoritarian excesses of the government, so how is that likely to be achieved if they represent the same political party as the prime minister?:scratch:
I understand that no-one can ever be totally impartial, but at least a bit more impartial than either a personal friend of the PM, or a Tory. Essentially, I simply can't see how what you've said is a core function of the HoL could possibly play out in practice, given the existence of said Tory bias...
Marco.
I did also say that since they are unelected they don't have to worry about towing the party line since they cannot be deselected by constituency parties nor does it matter if the whip is withdrawn or even if they are expelled from the party, they remain a Lord and still get to speak and vote.
Consequently they are free to 'vote with their conscience'. At least in theory. Although there are many incidences of Lords voting against their own party and many instances of the Lords as a whole influencing and rejecting government legislation.
That the Lords are not elected is a feature, not a bug.
The democratic argument only really holds water if what politicians say, and what is reported by the media, is the truth. Without that, the electorate is not in a position to make informed choice. I despair at the litany of lies told by our leading politicians and of course Donald Trump has recently walked out of a press conference when his statements were fact checked. Where are the 200,000 starter homes promised in 2015? Where is the £350m a week for the NHS? Where is the easiest ever trade deal? It is an utter embarrassment.
Mmm, ok Martin... But I still stand by everything I said. Until both cronyism and nepotism is wiped out from the HoL, for me it's unfit for the earlier purpose you outlined.
Marco.
Rewards for friends has been going on since 1066 in this country, probably even earlier.
" Fight with your King & I'll give you Northumberland or Scotland as your reward "
Old news
Doesn't make it right though, or that steps shouldn't be taken to stop it!
One of my pet hates is when folk say 'It's just how it is'... Well, fuck that - if 'how it is' isn't good, or right, then seek to change it for something better!!
:exactly:
Marco.
The democratic argument only really holds water if what politicians say, and what is reported by the media, is the truth. Without that, the electorate is not in a position to make informed choice. I despair at the litany of lies told by our leading politicians and of course Donald has recently walked out of a press conference when his statements were fact checked. Where are the 200,000 starter homes promised in 2015? Where is the £350m a week for the NHS? Where is the easiest ever trade deal? It is an utter embarrassment.
And as you just said. Donald was fact checked. If a politician lies or breaks his promises we have opposition politicians and the media to point it out. And they do point it out, both of those are always big stories.
The real issue is that most people don't bother to engage with it as they have got better things to do with their lives. They don't care that Donald lies. So if they do bother to participate in a vote or an election then they will probably be doing so from a sub-optimal position in terms of being 'informed'
But then 'Poorly Informed' has changed in meaning to become 'Doesn't agree with me' so it is hard to distinguish these days. For example I could say that anyone who voted against Brexit was 'poorly informed'. But the reality is that it's just an insult dressed up.
The best thing we could do for democracy would be to abandon the idea that people who disagree with us do so because they are 'Poorly informed' and start accepting the idea that a more intelligent dialogue is required.
Poorly informed is obvious. Becoming better informed is very, very difficult in the current climate, IMO.
And as you just said. Donald was fact checked. If a politician lies or breaks his promises we have opposition politicians and the media to point it out. And they do point it out, both of those are always big stories.
The real issue is that most people don't bother to engage with it as they have got better things to do with their lives. They don't care that Donald lies. So if they do bother to participate in a vote or an election then they will probably be doing so from a sub-optimal position in terms of being 'informed'
But then 'Poorly Informed' has changed in meaning to become 'Doesn't agree with me' so it is hard to distinguish these days. For example I could say that anyone who voted against Brexit was 'poorly informed'. But the reality is that it's just an insult dressed up.
The best thing we could do for democracy would be to abandon the idea that people who disagree with us do so because they are 'Poorly informed' and start accepting the idea that a more intelligent dialogue is required.
The process of fact checking Donald Trump is only just beginning. The media do not point out the lies, why would they when they are based in the Bahamas and allowed to trade in the UK without responsibility for UK tax?
Could I just clarify which 'Donald' it is you guys are referring to?
Marco.
Could I just clarify which 'Donald' it is you guys are referring to?
Marco.Posts edited.
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The process of fact checking Donald Trump is only just beginning. The media do not point out the lies, why would they when they are based in the Bahamas and allowed to trade in the UK without responsibility for UK tax?
That's odd because when I log on every morning there will be at least two if not more Donald Trump stories on MSN and at least one of them will be about something he has said that is wrong. And that has been going on since before he was even elected.
The other day it was his claim that children are immune to coronavirus. If he hasn't said anything incorrect in the last few days (rare) there will still be at least one story painting him in a poor light.
And yet a lot of people will still vote for him. I think the opposition to Trump needs to get away from the fanciful idea that people vote for him because they are brainwashed by the media and start realising that the alternative that they are presenting is at least as unattractive. Otherwise - four more years.
Posts edited.
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Thanks - I thought it was Trump... I was just surprised that, bizarrely, everyone was referring to him rather affectionately as 'Donald'!:eek::D
Marco.
I have rarely seen a less appealing 'leader' so to me the opposition is more attractive. Who on earth calls somebody Pocahontas, seriously?
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He's normally referred to as "The Donald", so as to take the edge off any perceived admiration for the man.
Perhaps we should refer to Boris Johnson as "The Johnson", which as any American will tell you is a euphemism for something else, and in this instance more appropriate.
AJSki2fly
12-08-2020, 09:47
He's normally referred to as "The Donald", so as to take the edge off any perceived admiration for the man.
Perhaps we should refer to Boris Johnson as "The Johnson", which as any American will tell you is a euphemism for something else, and in this instance more appropriate.
[emoji23][emoji23]LOL!
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donald wheres yer troosers
He's normally referred to as "The Donald", so as to take the edge off any perceived admiration for the man.
Perhaps we should refer to Boris Johnson as "The Johnson", which as any American will tell you is a euphemism for something else, and in this instance more appropriate.
I'll stick with 'The Wanker';)
Marco.
The posts above ably illustrate the point I was making.
The posts above ably illustrate the point I was making.
same can be said re sturgeon too.. all the wee jimmy crankie etc... it goes with the territory
same can be said re sturgeon too.. all the wee jimmy crankie etc... it goes with the territory
Right. But if someone considers themselves an intelligent, educated individual, experienced in the ways of the world, and they are attempting to convince someone similar that Trump is a poor choice for U.S President, or that Johnson/The tories are a poor choice for governing the UK, would you not expect their argument to rise above the level of the playground insult?
That it doesn't would seem to indicate that either they are not as intelligent/well educated/experienced as they think they are, or that they simply can't come up with any valid reasons for their position. Possibly because they are 'poorly informed'? I don't know. But it certainly doesn't convince me to change my position, in fact it has the opposite effect. If that is an indication of how dumb the people supporting the alternative are, then I'm not even going to consider it.
The posts above ably illustrate the point I was making.
What's that supposed to mean? It was a piss take!:D
Stop trying to intellectualise every political discussion, to the point that before you consider someone's contribution as 'worthy', it needs to be backed up with a degree in politics:doh:
You can't expert everyone to be an expert on every subject they're discussing, before being entitled to an opinion. That's ridiculous and smacks of elitism. If we adopted that policy on hi-fi threads and throughout the forum, no-one would bother contributing,
No-one's trying to change your position [heaven forbid that would be even remotely possible], but it's extremely arrogant and condescending to imply that someone isn't 'well informed' simply because they don't pass that test, based on your judgement criteria!:rolleyes:
So with respect, Martin, climb down off of your high horse, chill, and just allow folks to contribute to political discussions on whatever level they're able to, and if you don't consider their input as 'worthy' of a response, ignore it.
Oh, and as Grant points out, if some of us have to put up with derogatory remarks towards people we support politically, or who we agree with in some ways, then that applies in the same way to everyone else.
Marco.
I'm not the one on a high horse. It's those on their high horses that I am criticising.
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on that. Please just observe what I've said and stop trying to make political discussions here 'high-brow', in the way you'd like.
This isn't the student common room during your university years, populated by nerdy politics geeks, who study things to the nth degree.
This is the off-topic section of a hi-fi forum, populated by ordinary people with many other interests, so you can't expect political discussions to be conducted on the same level.
Anyway, just bear in mind what I've said in future. Ta!:cool:
Marco.
Thanks - I thought it was Trump... I was just surprised that, bizarrely, everyone was referring to him rather affectionately as 'Donald'!:eek::D
Marco.
I'd say in the states people are fairly tired of the "coverage" since at this point we all know it's just silly. For example when they say "fact checked children aren't 100% immune, he lied" well... he actually very carefully didn't say they are 100%, even though statistically speaking it would be true. Our media is simply packed to the brim with stuff that doesn't matter. And when you watch TV media it makes things out to be very overblown with the virus etc. One would think things are MUCH more grim than they are by seeing it. It makes us out to have more deaths but when you compare to a larger picture of Europe combining a bunch of countries for an on par population... it's identical for deaths.
Meanwhile China has been flooding the US with fake IDs... :rolleyes:
china needs isolating from world.. stop trading with them. see how well they do then
AJSki2fly
12-08-2020, 15:54
china needs isolating from world.. stop trading with them. see how well they do then
Too late,
https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/20858.jpeg
and i suspect most of the products people will not want to give up on, cheap clothes, electronics, hifi:eek:, mobile phones, computers, car components, etc
Notice we don't even appear, what a surprise.:doh:
that can be changed tho easily.. just put a huge tarriff on their stuff.. or ban it. so, wee jenny wont get her new iphone until they are made elsewhere etc.. about time this was stopped anyway. we need to start manufacturing stuff, especially important stuff like meds. this attitude that its too late, is lets face it an excuse. if we went to war we would do it so do it or at least make an attempt. dont just lie down and take it up the ass:eyebrows:
AJSki2fly
12-08-2020, 16:26
that can be changed tho easily.. just put a huge tarriff on their stuff.. or ban it. so, wee jenny wont get her new iphone until they are made elsewhere etc.. about time this was stopped anyway. we need to start manufacturing stuff, especially important stuff like meds. this attitude that its too late, is lets face it an excuse. if we went to war we would do it so do it or at least make an attempt. dont just lie down and take it up the ass:eyebrows:
I tend to agree with you, issue is there are some very big players in the mix, Apple immediately comes to mind, also there are many other companies around the world operating in or having huge amounts manufactured in China. There is another more insidious issue see below:-
https://graphics.reuters.com/USA-CHINA-MARKETS-EU/0100900600D/index.html
https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/04/15/china-is-bargain-hunting-and-western-security-is-at-risk/
Also China's investment in Africa and India https://www.sundayguardianlive.com/news/chinese-investments-deep-rooted-india is pretty significant.
By the way I don't take it up the arse.:eek::eyebrows:
Only way to stop buying Chinese is to give up on consumer electronics - they have had the forethought/strategic planning to make friends in Africa and corner the market in rare earth elements.
We are screwed imo
Only way to stop buying Chinese is to give up on consumer electronics - they have had the forethought/strategic planning to make friends in Africa and corner the market in rare earth elements.
We are screwed imo
Africa is now staring to wake up to what the Chinese are up to - but the situation is well established and will be very hard to reverse.
that can be changed tho easily.. just put a huge tarriff on their stuff.. or ban it. so, wee jenny wont get her new iphone until they are made elsewhere etc.. about time this was stopped anyway. we need to start manufacturing stuff, especially important stuff like meds. this attitude that its too late, is lets face it an excuse. if we went to war we would do it so do it or at least make an attempt. dont just lie down and take it up the ass:eyebrows:
:clapclapclap:
Yee FUCKING HA!!
Marco.
We have Mexico and South America as options... harder for you to quit China than US/us... :ner: Good luck getting Norwegians or France to manufacture anything cheaply.
Mikeandvan
13-08-2020, 20:05
Just abolish the lords, and stick to democratically elected representatives, long overdue.
Hear, hear!:clap:
It's a grossly outdated 'old boys network', rife with cronyism, and so needs eradicated and replacing with something more fit for purpose today, such as you've outlined:)
Marco.
mad-moon
13-08-2020, 22:07
You can Huff and you can Puff, but you will never blow China's house down and when they join forces with Russia., they will take over the world.
Pigmy Pony
14-08-2020, 06:20
But they'll never make me eat Chow Mein, because that's just wrong :(
You can Huff and you can Puff, but you will never blow China's house down and when they join forces with Russia., they will take over the world.
if nobody buys their tat, then they will go bust pdq
You can Huff and you can Puff, but you will never blow China's house down and when they join forces with Russia., they will take over the world.
Russia would have to get off it's mega-christian kick first I think.
mad-moon
14-08-2020, 12:18
if nobody buys their tat, then they will go bust pdq
if only it was as easy as that Grant...but the world is saturated with Chinese components in everything we use. The Logitech keyboard I'm typing on is from a Swedish company, but it is made in China, every electrical item in our homes has Chinese components in it. My BRITISH Telecom telephone is made in China. The majority in the following list of gear is either made in China, or has Chinese components in it.As someone stated previous.It's too late...
OPPO BDP-103D - PANASONIC UB450 - IFI PURIFIER 2/PATHOS CLASSIC REMIX & HIDAC AMPLIFIER - LEAF HD BLUETOOTH - NURAPHONE' HEADPHONES - 2*ZBOOK'- ROON - MULTI HDD'S - DIGIONE RPI3 - EDINGDALE MK1 SPEAKERS - CABLE INC SUPRA, FISUAL, MOGAMI
At moment that's the case but it could be changed I'm sure. It would cost a lot tho, and as much as people are upset with China and how they behave etc, they don't want anything to cost them anything in money, time or inconvenience. Most of the save the uighurs or tibetians probably buy Chinese i phones [emoji23]
so indeed, why bother... just let them take over the world, bit by bit
mad-moon
14-08-2020, 12:37
Russia would have to get off it's mega-christian kick first I think.
I doubt very much, that religion is going to play any part in what will happen.
I have a Chinese sister in law - lovely person and very funny too.
Interesting to find out how much prestige is attached to British goods by Chinese people, now that so many of them have "disposable" income. BUT, it is a complete pain in the arse trying to find a suitable gift for her as so many brands are manufactured in China.
We need manufacturing industries (NB - made here). Not just so that I find it easier to buy her presents :) but to ensure that we employ people, train people, make foreign currency etc.
I know that we make lots of money in the financial markets (that may well change post Brexit), but recent events have highlighted how much the UK needs to have safe supplies of medicines, protective equipment, bog roll etc.
FFS even my water supply is owned by a French company :steam:
VillageIdiot
14-08-2020, 16:32
FFS even my water supply is owned by a French company :steam:
No, it's not.
https://corporatewatch.org/who-owns-your-water-and-how-theyll-try-to-keep-it/
scottish water is owned by scottish govt
AJSki2fly
14-08-2020, 20:19
I have a Chinese sister in law - lovely person and very funny too.
Interesting to find out how much prestige is attached to British goods by Chinese people, now that so many of them have "disposable" income. BUT, it is a complete pain in the arse trying to find a suitable gift for her as so many brands are manufactured in China.
We need manufacturing industries (NB - made here). Not just so that I find it easier to buy her presents :) but to ensure that we employ people, train people, make foreign currency etc.
I know that we make lots of money in the financial markets (that may well change post Brexit), but recent events have highlighted how much the UK needs to have safe supplies of medicines, protective equipment, bog roll etc.
FFS even my water supply is owned by a French company :steam:
I think you mean electric supply EDF, they go an EU grant to buy ours up
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No, it's not.
https://corporatewatch.org/who-owns-your-water-and-how-theyll-try-to-keep-it/
My apologies to the French over water.
However not over energy:
https://capx.co/europes-stealth-invasion-of-british-industry/
I think you mean electric supply EDF, they go an EU grant to buy ours up
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Correct, my apologies for getting mixed up.
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