A bit of general advice on TT and tonearm 'sounds'.

[Mikeandvan]

I have two turntables at the moment, a Notts analogue Interspace and a Garrard 401, both run great. Jelco 750d arm on the 401 and Nima on the NA, Nag MP200 on both. I've been using the 401 in an old SME plinth (lead lined) for a while now, its been sounding ok, but still when playing those infamous 60s beat/rock records, the sound quite often grates, sibilance I believe is the term. So thought I'd plug in the NA/Nima again only for the sound to be even worse! That is to say it sounds pretty good with other types of music, but stuff like Stones Exile on main st, are almost unplayable. I swear its set up right, i took care, used a template, etc. So now thinking, do I try the Nima on the Garrard, or try another TT? Would I be better off with an old 'fruitbox' LP12 or Voyd? So what I'm after really is the general characteristics of each TT, idler - specifically the 401, the Notts analogue heavy platter belt drive type, and the usual belt drive type such as LP12 or Voyd and many others, including of course the Rega Planars. What I'd really like to know, is the 401 considered an audiophile TT that will 'show up bad recordings' - I know that will depend on the arm of course, and to a lesser extent I guess the plinth. Am I better off persisting with the Garrard and get a 'better' plinth (i.e. a heavy plywood one), is that my best bet at making my beloved 60s records more listenable? At the moment use a Valve/AN J set up - but that was pretty bad with 60s rock, but quite a revelation with jazz, so bought a Rega Brio off here, and that's more of an all rounder, and I'm quite happy with it for the time being, use it with some Chario syntars, a nice enough speaker, but feel I could do with some more presence and a bigger sound stage, the sound seems a bit recessed with them, the opposite of the AN Js. I'm thinking myself the Notts might be a too clinical, that;s my estimation, I'm not sure what conclusions to draw on the 401 yet, may'be it just needs a more suitable arm for my tastes, the Nima might be ok? May'be I should get an old RB300?

Does my Nima look set up correctly to you?

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[graham67]

Hi Mike,
Some 60s rock is among the hardest to get sounding decent, sounding thin and compressed.
However your 401 is a good deck for rock, having decent drive and bass when correctly setup. It was once read it described as the best deck for pink floyd !
Before splashing the cash, I would listen to.some other 401 (and other idlers such as lenco/td124)
Being in Brighton there are a few people not far from you with some well setup decks who I am sure would be delighted to demo their systems once covid restrictions lift of course.
Your 401 can be anything you want, from a decent deck to something quite extraordinary if you put in the time and effort , there are so many upgrade options available to with a 401.
Your sme plinth wont be doing it any favours. And perhaps your speakers are not ideal as sibilance is not something I associate with a 401. When I used a jelco 750.on.my 401 I found it rather dull. Other potential sources of sibilance are your cart /phono stage match. Graham slee stages can be on the brighter side and may suit a more laid back speaker.
For rock I would also be looking at getting some valves in the phono replay stage as they tend to be a bit more forgiving at the top end and can help to add scale.

[graham67]

Btw 401s often work well with uni pivot arms. I moved from the underwhelming jelco to an audio note arm which is a captured unipivot and noticed it was much more effective at isolating the cart from the motor.

I am sure the jelco 750 is a.decent arm but I can see why it would work better on an energetic technics than on the more measured 401.

[Mikeandvan]

Thanks alot Graham, I had a feeling I should keep the 401, I'll try the Nima with it.

[graham67]

Dounle post

[Mikeandvan]

What effect does a heavy thick platter have on sound?

[graham67]

Hopefully someone else will answer that. I use an old style loricraft plinth which is a slab of wood on sorbothane balls and probably closer in design concept to the sme plinth you have ��

[Mikeandvan]

Hopefully someone else will answer that. I use an old style loricraft plinth which is a slab of wood on sorbothane balls and probably closer in design concept to the sme plinth you have ��

Sorry meant plinth! My NAS TT has a thick heavy plinth, I think this has made the music too leaden at times, or may'be it was the tonearm, just remembering first getting the NAS and playing some dance 12" and the beats were awful, clod hopping around making an awful racket, whereas before they were buoyant and bouncy.

[Mikeandvan]

Anyone else find the Notts Analogue TT's a tad leaden?

[chris@panteg]

Thing is that a lot of 60s rock was cut to play on any record player, so will sound a bit thin and bandwidth limited.

[karma67]

Yep you’d be better off with a dansette ��

[AJSki2fly]

Hi Mike, sorry to hear about your sibilance issues, they are likely to be cart/arm set up IMHO.

I thought for the past 6 months I had my cartridges and arm set up just right, but did some recent investigation and discovered that it was 1.5mm off on Lofgren A, and also the azimuth was slightly out.

An AoS friend printed of the exact Lofgren A curve set up chart and sent it to me, and found the error when I checked. So I went back to basics, made absolutely sure the pivot to centre spindle distance was spot on. I then checked the arm was parallel to record surface as a start point for VTA. Then very carefully I adjusted the cartridge in the head shell until the stylus exactly traced the Lofgren A curve (I did this with the paper chart sat on top of an old record to minimise error), this took a lot of patience, at the same time I kept checking the cartridge side walls lined up with the lines on the chart at both the outside and inside points. I then set up taking weight and bias. The last thing I did was to put the Hifi test record and the 300hz azimuth test track, using a dB meter app on my mobile I measure the out put from each speaker with the phone about 300mm from the mid range speaker. It was about 1.5db out between channels, so I carefully adjusted the azimuth using the head shell adjustment(not easy if you do not have this). So with the first cartridge I did this with it took me about 2 hours of faffing and re-checking before I felt it was correct. When I did the other head shell and cartridge it took me just under and hour as I was more familiar with the process.

I was quite shocked by the improvement generally, effectively everything now sounds well balanced, with a very good sound stage and separation, great mid/top end detail and strong bass, it all sounds lively and involving. So how is that different from before, well before I was noticing that some records just sounded a bit dull, or lifeless, and some were just a bit bright as if some control was lost or edgy.

So my advice is what ever you do swapping arms/carts around really take your time with the arm/cartridge set up, it really isn't that easy, as I have found out. You may find it is just worth revisiting and double checking the set up of each before swapping them about. By the way have you checked the cartridges you use with each arm are reasonably compliant with them, I know this can have an impact as well.

I hope that helps a bit, All the best

Adrian

[Mikeandvan]

Now my fucking cart is broken, tried changing stylus and there was some resistance, so pushed harder, more resistance, got the magnifying glass, looked blocked, stuck a mini screw driver in there, now its fucked, lucky i got it cheap, but now i have a brand new styli and no cart. Was gonna try the Orton Quintet bronze, but at £500 a pop I'm too frigging clumsy for that, better stick with these Jap cheapos.

[Mikeandvan]

Hi Mike, sorry to hear about your sibilance issues, they are likely to be cart/arm set up IMHO.

I thought for the past 6 months I had my cartridges and arm set up just right, but did some recent investigation and discovered that it was 1.5mm off on Lofgren A, and also the azimuth was slightly out.

An AoS friend printed of the exact Lofgren A curve set up chart and sent it to me, and found the error when I checked. So I went back to basics, made absolutely sure the pivot to centre spindle distance was spot on. I then checked the arm was parallel to record surface as a start point for VTA. Then very carefully I adjusted the cartridge in the head shell until the stylus exactly traced the Lofgren A curve (I did this with the paper chart sat on top of an old record to minimise error), this took a lot of patience, at the same time I kept checking the cartridge side walls lined up with the lines on the chart at both the outside and inside points. I then set up taking weight and bias. The last thing I did was to put the Hifi test record and the 300hz azimuth test track, using a dB meter app on my mobile I measure the out put from each speaker with the phone about 300mm from the mid range speaker. It was about 1.5db out between channels, so I carefully adjusted the azimuth using the head shell adjustment(not easy if you do not have this). So with the first cartridge I did this with it took me about 2 hours of faffing and re-checking before I felt it was correct. When I did the other head shell and cartridge it took me just under and hour as I was more familiar with the process.

I was quite shocked by the improvement generally, effectively everything now sounds well balanced, with a very good sound stage and separation, great mid/top end detail and strong bass, it all sounds lively and involving. So how is that different from before, well before I was noticing that some records just sounded a bit dull, or lifeless, and some were just a bit bright as if some control was lost or edgy.

So my advice is what ever you do swapping arms/carts around really take your time with the arm/cartridge set up, it really isn't that easy, as I have found out. You may find it is just worth revisiting and double checking the set up of each before swapping them about. By the way have you checked the cartridges you use with each arm are reasonably compliant with them, I know this can have an impact as well.

I hope that helps a bit, All the best

Adrian

Thanks Adrian, I wish there was someone I could pay to do this! My cart set up did seem pretty good really, arm very level - parallel with record, very centralised vertically, got electronic scales for spot on downward force. Anyway, getting a 1210 gr tomorrow, gonna put my 750 on it, I have an old Denon 110 kicking around, as I now have to wait to order another mp 200 cart from Japan, mind you ther're not the bargain they once were, now £300, and MP 500 is only £500 from Japan, so that's now more tempting, thing is you can change styli with MMs and replacement ones for MP 500 are only £200. Was thinking of trying another cart too in the meanwhile, Goldring 1042 perhaps?

[AJSki2fly]

Thanks Adrian, I wish there was someone I could pay to do this! My cart set up did seem pretty good really, arm very level - parallel with record, very centralised vertically, got electronic scales for spot on downward force. Anyway, getting a 1210 gr tomorrow, gonna put my 750 on it, I have an old Denon 110 kicking around, as I now have to wait to order another mp 200 cart from Japan, mind you ther're not the bargain they once were, now £300, and MP 500 is only £500 from Japan, so that's now more tempting, thing is you can change styli with MMs and replacement ones for MP 500 are only £200. Was thinking of trying another cart too in the meanwhile, Goldring 1042 perhaps?

Hi Mike, it is very tricky I think when first setting up an arm and cartridge. Mine was set up by a dealer and I watched him do it at my house when he delivered the TT, and to be honest I did not think much of what he did. It’s taken me at least 6 attempts to get to feeling I understand what to do and know I stand a reasonable chance of getting it right. The problem is that if it is slightly out then it will affect how it sounds.

All aspects are critical IMO as I outlined previously, any one being wrong can deteriorate the sound and worst case cause distortion.

I purchased a goldring 2500 and find it excellent and someone else did on AOS after my write up. It’s a MI(moving iron) and to my ears comes very close to the detail of a MC. I brought it to save use of my expensive Benz micro and same reasons as you, stylus is replaceable.


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