High end / Cutting edge , Opinions please

[Audio Al]

Opinions please re this

If a hifi ( CD ) player was made and first sold from 2003 and at the time was High end / cutting edge , Would that component still be HE / CE ? , or over time with technology moving on at a great rate and the evolution of chips would it now still be HE /CE , Also would older internal components still deteriorate as std models do
Caps need replacing ? along with resistsors / transistor's , dry joints on soldering etc ?
Even high end components change over time , don't they ??? :scratch:

[AJSki2fly]

Opinions please re this

If a hifi ( CD ) player was made and first sold from 2003 and at the time was High end / cutting edge , Would that component still be HE / CE ? , or over time with technology moving on at a great rate and the evolution of chips would it now still be HE /CE , Also would older internal components still deteriorate as std models do
Caps need replacing ? along with resistsors / transistor's , dry joints on soldering etc ?
Even high end components change over time , don't they ??? :scratch:

I will use a simple example to answer you question Allen.

In the early to mid 80's 286 and 386 computers with their green screens and MS-DOS were considered state of the art(SOTA), similarly the good old brick Nokia mobile phones (new tech at the time) was SOTA. Move forward only 10 years and 386's were defunct, 486 PCs had come and gone in 5 years, MS-DOS was dead really and no respecting PC did not run some version of MS - Windows, mobiles phones had shrunk in size, had better battery live and better facilities. Go on into the 00's and Intel chips had evolved through various versions of Pentium, by 97 Celeron was the new chip version, by early 2000's Pentium 4 emerged, Pentium Core came along in various guises and 64 bit processors. Along side this the iPhone came onto the scene which turned the mobile phone into a multi-media device, and all the competitors followed or the died.

So older components IMO would no longer be considered HE/CE although they were in their time. All chips deteriorate with time and use, whether processors of storage chips, they are effectively a very small but massive (in number) array of switches (on/off, 0 or 1 binary) with various other support circuits. So with use, and exposure to heat variations and atmospherics the switches decay and if it fails then so does the processor or SSD. I have tried to explain in easy to understand terms. This may help explain the sophistication https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/191996-zoom-into-a-computer-chip-watch-this-video-to-fully-appreciate-just-how-magical-modern-microchips-are

[anthonyTD]

Power supply components are the main problematic parts in older equipment,ie; electrolytic capacitors, rectifiers/diodes, and regulators etc.
Signal chips tend to have a relatively long life, if they have been used well withing their design parameters, obviously heat play's a big part in the longevity of equipment, and its parts.
A...

[southall-1998_mk2]

Be interesting asking that over on Audio Science Review forum.

S.

[Audio Al]

Be interesting asking that over on Audio Science Review forum.

S.

Not a forum I use

[Macca]

Opinions please re this

If a hifi ( CD ) player was made and first sold from 2003 and at the time was High end / cutting edge , Would that component still be HE / CE ? , or over time with technology moving on at a great rate and the evolution of chips would it now still be HE /CE , Also would older internal components still deteriorate as std models do
Caps need replacing ? along with resistsors / transistor's , dry joints on soldering etc ?
Even high end components change over time , don't they ??? :scratch:

I think you could say that they were still high end. Better measured performance from the latest digital devices can't really translate into better performance in real life as once noise and distortion are below audibility there's not much more that can be done to improve sound quality. And that happened back in the 1980s.

Although not all high end equipment has good measured performance to begin with. Always worth researching that. ASR has found that there are current model high end DACs that only have 13 bit resolution. High price and high end are not always interchangeable.

Component parts will still age and go off spec and fail though. That's true of everything.

I suspect one advantage of buying an old high end cd player is that the people who could afford them new back in the day probably the sort of people who don't have much free time to listen to music so it might well have had little use (assuming the owner didn't leave it powered up all the time). Unlike a budget player that a student or someone else with a lot of time on their hands might have bought.

But of course there's no way to tell that when buying. And of the three Technics SLP1200s that I've owned, the broadcast one that had been used so much the chrome had worn off the play button was the one that lasted the longest before failing...

[Barry]

At least 95% of the items in my system are over 20 years old.

[ReggieB]

I think a major part of High End would be the quality of parts and construction. So an old piece of equipment could still be High End because that quality can last. However, by definition an old piece of equipment cannot be cutting edge. (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/cutting-edge)

And of course the important question is does it still sound good.

[Pharos]

I think the use of computer evolution as a parallel is probably not quite appropriate because I regard PCs as on the whole cheapish junk.

I agree that in general high end stuff is better built with better components, and often under run, ie. capable of a greater demand than is being placed on them.

I had a Mac SE30 which died in '05, on dismantling the motherboard had '86 on it.

All my stuff except cartridge is old; 10 to 20 years old, and I've just bought a high end FM tuner which is 40 years old, and it is wonderful, so I'm upgrading to one 35 years old.

Replacement mechs might be a problem with a player.

[anthonyTD]

:)
I think the use of computer evolution as a parallel is probably not quite appropriate because I regard PCs as on the whole cheapish junk.

I agree that in general high end stuff is better built with better components, and often under run, ie. capable of a greater demand than is being placed on them.

I had a Mac SE30 which died in '05, on dismantling the motherboard had '86 on it.

All my stuff except cartridge is old; 10 to 20 years old, and I've just bought a high end FM tuner which is 40 years old, and it is wonderful, so I'm upgrading to one 35 years old.

Replacement mechs might be a problem with a player.

[AJSki2fly]

I think the use of computer evolution as a parallel is probably not quite appropriate because I regard PCs as on the whole cheapish junk.

I agree that in general high end stuff is better built with better components, and often under run, ie. capable of a greater demand than is being placed on them.



Sorry but the evolution of mobile phones, and chip technology used in the computer industry and other related technologies, is primarily what has enabled and driven other market areas such as the hifi digital arena and modern sound systems, and virtually anything else technically driven you can think of. Computers and PC may appear to be cheapish/junk externally but the internal processors and chips(storage) in them is very sophisticated, it is only cheap due to very high volumes of production.

[topoxforddoc]

Allen,
The key issue about the Burmester, which you have been eyeing is not the SQ. A high end CD player from that era will sound great, as that era spawned some of the great CD players. But I would be worried about spares and serviceability. It may be that Burmester have put aside plenty of spares, like Studer and Telefunken did for their R2R studio machines. But if there are no spares, this could potentially be a very expensive door stop.
Charlie

[Mikeandvan]

Does it really matter? Just pretend its 2003 and you got the best money can buy.

[Macca]

Does it really matter? Just pretend its 2003 and you got the best money can buy.

No, I'm going to pretend that it's 1979. that was a much better year.

[Mikeandvan]

No, I'm going to pretend that it's 1979. that was a much better year.

For music? One of the best.

[Pharos]

Sorry but the evolution of mobile phones, and chip technology used in the computer industry and other related technologies, is primarily what has enabled and driven other market areas such as the hifi digital arena and modern sound systems, and virtually anything else technically driven you can think of. Computers and PC may appear to be cheapish/junk externally but the internal processors and chips(storage) in them is very sophisticated, it is only cheap due to very high volumes of production.

I agree that the evolution involving high sales rates in things has increased massively investment, and resultantly in design improvement, notably in mobile phones. The best part of the PCs IMO are probably the chips, which may well be used in many other devices.

However, someone said earlier that CD quality was so good distortion and noise wise, that little improvement was possible, and I don't think that much progress has been made in CD players, especially now that they have lost their primacy as a source.

[Ali Tait]

Allen,
The key issue about the Burmester, which you have been eyeing is not the SQ. A high end CD player from that era will sound great, as that era spawned some of the great CD players. But I would be worried about spares and serviceability. It may be that Burmester have put aside plenty of spares, like Studer and Telefunken did for their R2R studio machines. But if there are no spares, this could potentially be a very expensive door stop.
Charlie

Agree with this. I’d also point out that whilst components used may be of high quality, caps are caps and resistors are resistors and as such are prone to failure after a period of time. Film caps should be fine, ‘lytics can be another matter.

Nowt that can’t be fixed though, unless as Charlie says, the likes of the laser are unobtanium.

[Audio Al]

Agree with this. I’d also point out that whilst components used may be of high quality, caps are caps and resistors are resistors and as such are prone to failure after a period of time. Film caps should be fine, ‘lytics can be another matter.

Nowt that can’t be fixed though, unless as Charlie says, the likes of the laser are unobtanium.

A seller has these for sale
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Burmester-001-Lasereinheit-NEU-mit-Einbauanleitung/273955247123?hash=item3fc9015413:g:z3IAAOSw0Ppen0S C

I think I am out as my feeling are the same as most on here , I did make a offer of what I was prepaired to pay . the offer was declined ,

Thanks for your opinions folks

Allen

[Mr. C]

Burmester a love / hate relationship had quite a few of these over the years the 001 being the most engaging although it does look like it belongs in a drug dealer boudoir

[Beobloke]

Opinions please re this

If a hifi ( CD ) player was made and first sold from 2003 and at the time was High end / cutting edge , Would that component still be HE / CE ?

Still High End? Yes
Still Cutting Edge? Given the technology in it is approaching 20 years old, I'd say No.

As an aside, the whole concept of "It was good in its day but isn't any more" irritates the hell out of me. If that were the case for any piece of equipment, I'd love to know the precise date and time when it became no good any more!

As far as I'm concerned, if something was good when new, then it still is now. Yes, it may be old-fashioned/superseded/oversized/ugly/largely worthless in monetary terms, but there's nothing to stop it still being worthy if it works properly.

[walpurgis]

As far as I'm concerned, if something was good when new, then it still is now. Yes, it may be old-fashioned/superseded/oversized/ugly/largely worthless in monetary terms, but there's nothing to stop it still being worthy if it works properly.

I agree. Older gear can be fun and some of it is great!

[Ali Tait]

Aye no argument there.

[Macca]

Still High End? Yes
Still Cutting Edge? Given the technology in it is approaching 20 years old, I'd say No.

As an aside, the whole concept of "It was good in its day but isn't any more" irritates the hell out of me. If that were the case for any piece of equipment, I'd love to know the precise date and time when it became no good any more!


Write to What Hi*Fi and ask them. They're always saying that previously great kit is now 'Off the pace.' They even take stars off retrospectively. The myth of 'continuous improvement'.

[anthonyTD]

My most treasured CD player is an old California Audio Tempest 2 [Special edition]from 1989, it is a two box afair, and therefore demands a bit of room, :eek: it has a proper all valve directly coupled analogue output stage, [no mickey mouse added on cathode follower gimmicks] it even uses valves for the current to voltage conversion from the DAC chips. Is it accurate by todays standards ? highly unlikely, However; it is very musical, and therefore portrays music in a way that is uncanily Analogue, which for me is more important than test figures, although for its day, it doesent test bad, even by todays standards.
I have had a few decent modern players over the years, and have held onto one or two, mainly for refrence, however; when it comes down to just listening to music, this old antique is hard to beat! :)
A...

[Beobloke]

Write to What Hi*Fi and ask them. They're always saying that previously great kit is now 'Off the pace.' They even take stars off retrospectively. The myth of 'continuous improvement'.

Oh, don’t I know it. I still haven’t forgiven them...

[Gazjam]

Good thread over on the Tent about this “kinda” exact thing...
https://www.hifiwigwam.com/forum/topic/143338-1990s-vs-2000s2010s-hifi-comparison/

[Mr. C]

I can see the attraction with certain older high end equipment I still have six Wadias in my digital replay collection though I do have a real soft spot for the Wadia 15 dac :)

Some thoughts on previous chart toppers (https://theaudiostandard.net/thread/4360/wormhole-effect)

[Pharos]

My slightly more recent vintage FM tuner arrived today, and I'm delighted with it both functionally and aesthetically, and the controls are lovely, it's a keeper.

[popol_vuh]

Opinions please re this

If a hifi ( CD ) player was made and first sold from 2003 and at the time was High end / cutting edge , Would that component still be HE / CE ? , or over time with technology moving on at a great rate and the evolution of chips would it now still be HE /CE , Also would older internal components still deteriorate as std models do
Caps need replacing ? along with resistsors / transistor's , dry joints on soldering etc ?
Even high end components change over time , don't they ??? :scratch:


I believe CD, DACs , digital sources in general have evolved quite a bit even in the last few years, let alone from 2003. So, I personally wouldn't say a high end CD player from 2003 is high end now. Or maybe it even is, but now sound close to that can be had for much less money. In any case, I know guys with good experience who claim that top-end old Mark Levinson CD players are still high end. On the other hand, I know guys who have sold very expensive Wadia CD players and use quite cheap DAC solutions and say it's close or better. There is one fact in the whole story - digital sources seem to lose their value (in the sense of market value) the most.

I wouldn't say the same for preamps, amps, phono stages, turntables - top amps 30 years ago pretty much still are top amps.

The only real progress seems to happen in digital sources and to a lesser extent in speakers (because of progress in materials science, probably). And in marketing :lol:

[StingRay]

I believe CD, DACs , digital sources in general have evolved quite a bit even in the last few years, let alone from 2003. So, I personally wouldn't say a high end CD player from 2003 is high end now. Or maybe it even is, but now sound close to that can be had for much less money. In any case, I know guys with good experience who claim that top-end old Mark Levinson CD players are still high end. On the other hand, I know guys who have sold very expensive Wadia CD players and use quite cheap DAC solutions and say it's close or better. There is one fact in the whole story - digital sources seem to lose their value (in the sense of market value) the most.

I wouldn't say the same for preamps, amps, phono stages, turntables - top amps 30 years ago pretty much still are top amps.

The only real progress seems to happen in digital sources and to a lesser extent in speakers (because of progress in materials science, probably). And in marketing :lol:

CD players have not improved in years and the modern ones seem a lot less reliable than ones made about 30 years. DACs maybe have improved slightly but still some of the old DAC chips are sought after. Speakers have changed but not always for the better, I was surprised how poor some of them were when I did a load of demos. Don't believe what some HiFi mags say.

[StingRay]

What was the Wadia that had a budget Philips CDP inside it's fancy case?

[Macca]

There was a Goldmund that was essentially the slightly modded boards from a budget Pioneer DVD player put into a fancy case. There was one other where they literally put the cheap player inside a fancy case, don't think that was Wadia though but I can't recall.

[popol_vuh]

What was the Wadia that had a budget Philips CDP inside it's fancy case?

I don't know which model had that transport. I'm talking about Wadia 581. And Wadias are really well engineered and built (not talking about cases) even if some of them have a cheapo CD transport. That's really not crucial for sound quality. Don't assume things about these devices if you have no experience with them, they are top-notch components. It's just that digital has gone quite a bit ahead from those days.

I'm not talking from "magazine knowledge". I don't read hi-fi magazines and don't read/watch reviews. I talk only about things I've experienced myself or things that were experienced by my hi-fi buddies, whose first-hand experiences i trust.

[StingRay]

There was a Goldmund that was essentially the slightly modded boards from a budget Pioneer DVD player put into a fancy case. There was one other where they literally put the cheap player inside a fancy case, don't think that was Wadia though but I can't recall.

Found it, it was a Wadia Transport WT3200.

[popol_vuh]

There was a Goldmund that was essentially the slightly modded boards from a budget Pioneer DVD player put into a fancy case. There was one other where they literally put the cheap player inside a fancy case, don't think that was Wadia though but I can't recall.

Yes, i know that case. There is also a similar case with one Goldmund integrated amp that i know of. However, that's not really comparable to what I was talking about. With Wadia that's certainly not even close to the case, so the Goldmund issue could be misleading in this context.

[Macca]

I heard a Wadia 2 box cd player a long time ago, that was very good. Out of my pay grade though.

I don't think quality digital replay has anything much to do with the chips or the tech but how it is put together, discreet power supplies for the various functions, that sort of thing. IME of owning dozens of cd players that is where the difference in SQ lies. Different DAC chips have a different 'character'? Maybe, I'd like to see someone distinguish between them in a test though before I'd accept that as gospel.

The whole business about early digital sounding harsh is nonsense, I have early (1980s) players here that prove that statement. It's true that the boundaries for noise and distortion have been pushed much farther in the past ten years, but early players can be shown to have those factors below audibility anyway. Mostly it is just marketing puff these days. In the 1980s people (especially in UK) had edgy-sounding amps and speakers to put a bit of 'bite' into the sound of LP and cassette. Fed with a neutral source from digital they just showed up their true character.

[Haselsh1]

Back in 1997 I owned a Digital Analogue Company 'The Ultimate' CD player which back then was a £5k cutting edge CD player with valve output stages. I could well be wrong but I doubt it would be considered such at the mo.

[Flo]

Perhaps a better analogy for aged hi fi are vintage cars.
The new stuff is better, quieter, faster, more reliable, the result of improving every part thru better standards of engineering, quality of parts and knowledge involved in design.
Vintage cars, hi fi, kit has a emotional and aesthetic appeal, but rarely outperforms modern equivalents.
Also over years there has been a realisation that hifi infrastructure, cables and tables play a vital role.
Vintage cars are wonderful, but have you got time and money to accommodate there delicate nature.