Looking for a Valve Phono stage with balanced outputs

[The Black Adder]

Hello there.

Can anyone tell me if there is such a thing? - Without re-mortgaging the house?

I'd love to find one. Kit form maybe?

Cheers
Joe

[John]

Try this http://www.sacthailand.com/
I have not heard it and not likely to be cheap but the guy makes good amps and hand builds the transformer Looking at the design I imagine this to be pretty special

[Chivas]

Take a look at this hybrid phono stage. Although I expect it will be quite expensive, this guy builds seriously impressive amplifiers.

http://www.valveaudio.co.za/products_whisper.htm

[Ali Tait]

Did not the WD Phono come with a balanced option? Dave should have it back up and running soon.

[lurcher]

Do you want it to be fully balanced, ie floating cartridge in? If so RTP3C would be fun.

http://www.vacuumstate.com/index.tpl?rubrik=8&lang=2&a=D%25FA%25DF%25E8%25EE%251E%2589%25A8&b=734359.4561623100

[John]

Here are a few others
BAT not cheap but I think Neil likes this so might be worth a punt
http://www.balanced.com/products/phono/Vk-P10SE/index.html
Alinic produce expense valve based balanced Phono stages
Cheap well it just not out there I am afried

[The Black Adder]

Cheers guys.

Is it me or is there a hole in the market here for more balanced valve amps? I'm very supprised that there isn't more about. I'm also supprised that companies such as Croft doesn't make (or even give an option) for XLR output as it can't be that difficult to adapt the output for balanced... or is this not the case?

[John]

To be honest I could not here the difference beween Balanced and RCA on my Whest 30dt using the same make cables

[The Black Adder]

What are you running it in to John? - I comparing results at the moment with XLR, sometimes I feel I get more grip via XLR, louder or faster bass. Nothing much difference (if at all) in the mids and high.

I must admit the Whest PS.30R is a probable next move to be honest, just need some moolah!

[Spectral Morn]

Cheers guys.

Is it me or is there a hole in the market here for more balanced valve amps? I'm very supprised that there isn't more about. I'm also supprised that companies such as Croft doesn't make (or even give an option) for XLR output as it can't be that difficult to adapt the output for balanced... or is this not the case?

Hi Joe

The reason there are less of these about is cost and the difficulty in designing a good one. A true balanced phono stage requires double upped circuitry i.e a separate left and right channel layout, this is called dual differential.

Valve phono stages are also hard to get right when dealing with MC carts. MM is easier to do right and costs less....usually. Main reason for this is low level phono signals don't want to be passed through any additional noise and valves can be noisy.

John mentioned BAT and I am a fan off their VK10 phono stages I have the top version which is the SE but it is very dear.

The other reason at least among UK companies (I think) is that up until recently single ended RCA designs were more common among amplifiers CD players etc and balanced was only common in the pro market and USA high-end audio products... Was there a market for balanced valve phono stages and were there enough people out there to pay for them.

There are however imho real benefits to be had going balanced with any products but particularly phono stages as cartridges are a balanced design themselves. However solid state makes it easier to amplify MC carts with no added or little added noise problem which valves as a bread have, they are more noisy in general(it is possible to get fairly silent valves but the number you have to go through makes it hard and costly to do).

If your system is balanced through out as my main system is then running a balanced phono stage is worthwhile and the BAT is one of the very best that I have tried personally, as it has a very low noise floor for a valve phono stage. It also uses step ups inside (as an option) for amplifying very low MC carts. Higher gain MC carts can be done through the valves direct though I think that the lower noise floor you can get by using the step ups instead makes it a worthwhile alternative to going only through the valve gain stage alone.

However I am in recent times changing my mind to the idea that simplicity is best with pre-amplifiers and phono stages and as such a good MM stage with a super step up transformer is probably (in many applications) the best way to go for the least amount of money but only if your system is single ended or you don't intend to run fully balanced from tonearm cables to phonostage and then to the pre or integrated amplifier.

Regards D S D L

[John]

What are you running it in to John? - I comparing results at the moment with XLR, sometimes I feel I get more grip via XLR, louder or faster bass. Nothing much difference (if at all) in the mids and high.

I must admit the Whest PS.30R is a probable next move to be honest, just need some moolah!

The Whest PS30R is a good phonostage I got it from James when it first came out and had the boards mod by James to DT standards
At the time I was ZYX R100H Cart and a Balanced pre and power amp I was really hoping the Balanced section would be better but in my case this was not the case But agree with Neil that in theory it should offer sonic advantages I think I did speak to James about it but did not offer any solutions to why not at the time.
James from Whest is great to deal with
I only heard Marcos croft and not in the context of my own system but sounded good to me so if not going balanced is a option for you I certainly add to my list.
What I did a few years ago was really took my time I heard quite a few phonostages so felt really confident about my choice

[The Black Adder]

Hi Joe

The reason there are less of these about is cost and the difficulty in designing a good one. A true balanced phono stage requires double upped circuitry i.e a separate left and right channel layout, this is called dual differential.

Valve phono stages are also hard to get right when dealing with MC carts. MM is easier to do right and costs less....usually. Main reason for this is low level phono signals don't want to be passed through any additional noise and valves can be noisy.

John mentioned BAT and I am a fan off their VK10 phono stages I have the top version which is the SE but it is very dear.

The other reason at least among UK companies (I think) is that up until recently single ended RCA designs were more common among amplifiers CD players etc and balanced was only common in the pro market and USA high-end audio products... Was there a market for balanced valve phono stages and were there enough people out there to pay for them.

There are however imho real benefits to be had going balanced with any products but particularly phono stages as cartridges are a balanced design themselves. However solid state makes it easier to amplify MC carts with no added or little added noise problem which valves as a bread have, they are more noisy in general(it is possible to get fairly silent valves but the number you have to go through makes it hard and costly to do).

If your system is balanced through out as my main system is then running a balanced phono stage is worthwhile and the BAT is one of the very best that I have tried personally, as it has a very low noise floor for a valve phono stage. It also uses step ups inside (as an option) for amplifying very low MC carts. Higher gain MC carts can be done through the valves direct though I think that the lower noise floor you can get by using the step ups instead makes it a worthwhile alternative to going only through the valve gain stage alone.

However I am in recent times changing my mind to the idea that simplicity is best with pre-amplifiers and phono stages and as such a good MM stage with a super step up transformer is probably (in many applications) the best way to go for the least amount of money but only if your system is single ended or you don't intend to run fully balanced from tonearm cables to phonostage and then to the pre or integrated amplifier.

Regards D S D L

Nice one Neil.

That sheds some interesting light on the matter for me so many thanks for that. The BAT looks like a ruddy good bit of kit... it's sooooo expensive though.

Yeah, the step-up tranny idea is something that is new to me and I'm going to look in to that.

Cheers
Joe

[REM]

There's a thread over on the Asylum about balanced gear with some of the main players contributing, might be of interest.

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=amp&m=157457

[The Grand Wazoo]

There was a balanced phono stage made by a company called HiQ from near Lincoln - I'm thinking about 10 years or so ago, maybe a little more.