View Full Version : Grounding boxes?
The Black Adder
23-07-2020, 18:27
Hi.
Could anyone give me any idea if these voodoo-like boxes actually work?
I ask because a friend of mine in Belgium has just bought some Entreq boxes and he says they really do make a positive difference. He's certainly not one to make stuff up, so... do they work?
The more I look on the net about the 'grounding box' the more I'm intrigued.
I do love my crystals and I do believe they can be used to comfort people. I have known this to be true.
Entreq grounding boxes seem to be the the most famous manufacturer but other manufactures are now stepping in with positive results from users.
walpurgis
23-07-2020, 19:05
I know some like them, but don't personally think I could post anything polite about the idea.
well if you think crystals can comfort people the grounding boxes should be right up your street.
Audio Al
23-07-2020, 19:37
I'm very sceptical about these boxes filled with what looks like charcoal with a piece of wire coming out of it :scratch:
And how much do they cost :eek:
I think it is one of those things you have to try for yourself, and see if it makes any difference.
Wakefield Turntables
23-07-2020, 19:58
Hmmmm, I remember fetching up this very topic years ago and as always we had those who believed and those that didn't. Like everything else in this hobby, use YOUR OWN ears :).
hifinutt
23-07-2020, 20:38
Wise advice
Filterlab
23-07-2020, 21:15
The price of the Entreq boxes is rather high, but they certainly work amazingly well, and with immediate apparency in A/B tests I’ve heard.
There’s a lot to get sorted before that stage though, and it’s certainly a case of ‘money to burn’ stature.
Wakefield Turntables
23-07-2020, 21:19
Make your own https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOVfFLTXB3k
I'm sure that this was discussed extensively on this forum a few months ago.
The trouble with using your own ears is that we cannot remove placebo effects unless DB tests are involved.
Wakefield Turntables
24-07-2020, 08:30
I'm sure that this was discussed extensively on this forum a few months ago.
The trouble with using your own ears is that we cannot remove placebo effects unless DB tests are involved.
Yep, agree. I'm science based, but with this hobby, as we know it's not that simple, so I have a simple adage for my own personal system and requirements. If I think it sounds good then it goes in my system if not it stays out. I'm not bothered about anyone else! ;)
anthonyTD
24-07-2020, 09:32
Mr C seems to have done quite a bit of work with these, so maybe he can comment.
A...
Yep, agree. I'm science based, but with this hobby, as we know it's not that simple, so I have a simple adage for my own personal system and requirements. If I think it sounds good then it goes in my system if not it stays out. I'm not bothered about anyone else! ;)
It is not just a hobby for me.
I would like to be in that psychological position, but it is evident that many people are in highly subjective worlds on every subject. This may provide a comfort zone for them, but it is to me quite unhealthy because it prevents interaction and hence growth of the individual beyond, perhaps childish, concepts.
I see as the outcome a world in which everyone is strictly adhering to personal views and tastes, much often based on early environmental imprinting, and which often prevents mature interaction and negotiation with others.
When I reflect on some early 'bonding', often with stereotypes, I realise that I was susceptible and naively guided into certain stances by populist culture.
A good example might be the adoption of smoking, often adopted in late childhood, this despite the often nauseous effects it has on first partaking.
In Antony Storr's The Dynamics of Creation, he depicts a certain personality type which is able, to a much greater extent than normal, live with unresolved issues; the tensions of discord, or cognitive dissonance.
I currently live with a system which often is excruciating, but it repeatedly reveals things I have never heard before, even after 2 and 1/2 years. It enables me to see where I have 'papered over the cracks' and formed an internal illusion.
Mr C seems to have done quite a bit of work with these, so maybe he can comment.
A...
It is not the usual style of Mr C to comment on his products on an open forum.
I know people who have tried them and liked them, and other people have tried them and seen no benefit.
I think they are very system/system owner dependant.
To the OP, try one and see and if works for you is probably the best advice.
It is your system, and your ears at the end of the day.
Beobloke
24-07-2020, 11:40
I'd love to know how a wooden box containing stuff that isn't actually connected to ground can be called a 'grounding box'...
I tried several Entreq products, grounding box, power dist, cords. They do make a significant difference, found yes they reduce noise floor, but to my ears they sterilise the musical msg. Similar effect to russ Andrews and other expensive mains filters, less noise, less music. Much prefer good quality cords and high quality outlets. My fave are oyaide.
mayebaza
24-07-2020, 18:05
I think you are asking the wrong question. As an Entreq user, in my set up and several of my friends find them effective and use them. However if you don't perceive an issue with background noise why use them at all.
I feel mains effect of filters are like single ended v balanced, Or silver v copper, different not better.
I tried several Entreq products, grounding box, power dist, cords. They do make a significant difference, found yes they reduce noise floor, but to my ears they sterilise the musical msg. Similar effect to russ Andrews and other expensive mains filters, less noise, less music. Much prefer good quality cords and high quality outlets. My fave are oyaide.
They sound like they reduce the noise floor. But they do not actually do that. They can however mask some of it.
What are they? They are a tuned antenna. Measured, verified, repeatable. The effect is known within design community.
What are they not? A grounding device. Please refer to the first rule of an electrical circuit, you must have a complete circuit (loop) for electricity to flow. Something waving in the wind by itself is not part of the loop. Basic physics, irrefutable to our existence by 100% of all physicist and electronics engineers.
Are they go subjectively? If HiFi sound is your goal, yes. They undoubtedly change the sound. Do I think it is an improvement? No. I am perfectly content calling them kitty-litter boxes. I have no desire to increase artificial sound attributes, very unnatural, decrease in resolution where character depreciates and “detail” is unnaturally pulled forward.
AJSki2fly
26-07-2020, 07:57
Hi.
Could anyone give me any idea if these voodoo-like boxes actually work?
I ask because a friend of mine in Belgium has just bought some Entreq boxes and he says they really do make a positive difference. He's certainly not one to make stuff up, so... do they work?
The more I look on the net about the 'grounding box' in general is that they are a box with a copper conductor inside filled with rubble and crystals.
I love my crystals and I do believe they can be used to comfort people.
So... any ideas on these mysterious things?
Hello Josie
You might like to try the CAD Ground Control reference system, there is an article about it in July HiFi+ magazine, It can be configured in several ways apparently, according to the article it’s worth every penny of the £20,500 price. By the way it only weighs 50kg
Happy listening😃
Filterlab
26-07-2020, 07:59
Hello Josie
You might like to try the CAD Ground Control reference system, there is an article about it in July HiFi+ magazine, It can be configured in several ways apparently, according to the article it’s worth every penny of the £20,500 price. By the way it only weighs 50kg
Happy listening��
:lol:
Sounds like a bargain and a half.
Pigmy Pony
26-07-2020, 08:24
Hello Josie
You might like to try the CAD Ground Control reference system, there is an article about it in July HiFi+ magazine, It can be configured in several ways apparently, according to the article it’s worth every penny of the £20,500 price. By the way it only weighs 50kg
Happy listening😃
I'll take two. Always handy to keep a spare
They are a few of the devices on the market some claiming wondrous things and others just sit in the corner and quietly do they their thing.
The biggest issue for most folks is the term 'grounding' this is not an a main earth relationship in any way. Grounding refers to the reference voltage in a circuit which is '0' volts to which both positive and negative voltages are reference from.
For example a vehicle battery system is 12v has black and red terminals this 0-12Vdc the black terminal being 0 volts.
In a pre amplifier for example they will be dual rails usually capable of +/- 6-18Vdc giving a total rail to rail swing of up to 36vdc.
So 0 volts is what most people would call ground and in the vast majority of audio equipment you may have many independent grounds, this will have potential difference between them, so very small other no so.
Ideally all grounds within a component be be absolute zero across all of the ground reference planes.
Theory being that by joining all of these ground planes together in all of your equipment they have a one single reference point.
Now much has been said, laughed and scoffed, theorized and plain guessed at what is or is not happening.
What I can say without question is RF energy inside the individual pieces of audio does move around in various methods, conducted (along transmission lines, cabling, circuit boards and connectors) plus Radiated RF through the air/case work.
There are tests specifically designed for CE approval that limit these EMC emissions to a particular standard (CISPER) so surely if the device has passed CE then there is no problem right? One of the testing procedures for this standard is immunity testing where an induced am modulated pulse is put into the DUT (device under test) DC and AC power supplies to stimulate a response to see how it stands up to outside RF.
Now what I can say is I have spent a long time on this subject (not just audio emissions) you can measure the amount of RF ingress via several different ways, Rf passive probes, TEM cells and if you have the budget RF current probes and quality spectrum analyses plus a network analyzer for other measurements related to cabling.
one of these probes is used for this very application see below.
RF current probe
In my investigations with this subject what I can demonstrate (repeatably as well) is that RF energy travels along the grounding cabling from the audio equipment to the grounding device I have measured upwards to 48uV of current moving to grounding box/device.
Does this effect the sound?, I firmly believe it does without question, though as it has been said different people has observed different results.
I do have some measurement images I can show, but not today they are on the Lab PC not the office one! Have also measured six different manufacturers grounding products, some shall we say are more effective at removing this rf noise than others.
"49uV of current"?
My education must all be wrong.
Anyway I've just placed a thick piece of spare mains cable from the Hi-Fi to the cat's litter tray, and I'm waiting for him to piss in it.
They are a few of the devices on the market some claiming wondrous things and others just sit in the corner and quietly do they their thing.
The biggest issue for most folks is the term 'grounding' this is not an a main earth relationship in any way. Grounding refers to the reference voltage in a circuit which is '0' volts to which both positive and negative voltages are reference from.
For example a vehicle battery system is 12v has black and red terminals this 0-12Vdc the black terminal being 0 volts.
In a pre amplifier for example they will be dual rails usually capable of +/- 6-18Vdc giving a total rail to rail swing of up to 36vdc.
So 0 volts is what most people would call ground and in the vast majority of audio equipment you may have many independent grounds, this will have potential difference between them, so very small other no so.
Ideally all grounds within a component be be absolute zero across all of the ground reference planes.
Theory being that by joining all of these ground planes together in all of your equipment they have a one single reference point.
Now much has been said, laughed and scoffed, theorized and plain guessed at what is or is not happening.
What I can say without question is RF energy inside the individual pieces of audio does move around in various methods, conducted (along transmission lines, cabling, circuit boards and connectors) plus Radiated RF through the air/case work.
There are tests specifically designed for CE approval that limit these EMC emissions to a particular standard (CISPER) so surely if the device has passed CE then there is no problem right? One of the testing procedures for this standard is immunity testing where an induced am modulated pulse is put into the DUT (device under test) DC and AC power supplies to stimulate a response to see how it stands up to outside RF.
Now what I can say is I have spent a long time on this subject (not just audio emissions) you can measure the amount of RF ingress via several different ways, Rf passive probes, TEM cells and if you have the budget RF current probes and quality spectrum analyses plus a network analyzer for other measurements related to cabling.
one of these probes is used for this very application see below.
RF current probe
In my investigations with this subject what I can demonstrate (repeatably as well) is that RF energy travels along the grounding cabling from the audio equipment to the grounding device I have measured upwards to 48uV of current moving to grounding box/device.
Does this effect the sound?, I firmly believe it does without question, though as it has been said different people has observed different results.
I do have some measurement images I can show, but not today they are on the Lab PC not the office one! Have also measured six different manufacturers grounding products, some shall we say are more effective at removing this rf noise than others.
All you proved is that it is an antenna. You cannot reverse the direction of electrons by changing the tuning of an antenna. Changing antenna configuration simply changes the spectrum it is going to pick up the most.
You can replicate a grounding box by running the same wire to aluminum window. In fact if you have an aluminum window just run a wire and save yourself a box and grounding post.
Think about your example of 0v. It's not just that it's 0v, it's that it gives up free electrons to the demanding charge. Would the antenna be at 0v? Does it have free electrons to give? No. It's not a battery, capacitor, or generator. Let's look at a grounding rod. If you go outside and plug in a wire to a socket's hot end and then start touching the ground with it, does it spark all over the place? No it does nothing because the voltage is too low. The complete circuit includes resistance too high for anything to happen. In fact it's such a high impedance path that earth ground is a noise source for audio equipment. Studios and such try to improve the earth ground as much as possible to reduce the noise it introduces, not to remove existing noise. It is an antenna. People forget that Neutral and ground are tied at the breaker box, which is why you can use (safety) ground as a shield as it won't drain through the audio parts, but makes a complete circuit.
(Why does a down power line arc and spark? Because it's at 150,000-700,000v not 115/230v)
Simple advice I have is if you like the way they sound use them, but please don't try to tell the world that your foil with a pure copper wire going to it, in an electrically transparent box filled with kitty litter first invented by tractor repair guy was smarter than all institutions of higher learning and research; about the make-up of our reality. :)
"49uV of current"?
My education must all be wrong.
Anyway I've just placed a thick piece of spare mains cable from the Hi-Fi to the cat's litter tray, and I'm waiting for him to piss in it.
Well Dennis why do you try that you may find illuminating.
You see this why forums are both delightful and full of people seeking entertainment outside the mundane lives full internet warriors won a mission to Mars via a vespa, spoiling for a fight
Your eduction is not incorrect just my typing skills and size of my hands are shall we say are not up to par today.
For the correct actual measured unit you are looking for is dBuA decibel micro amps for which I can only apologise for my typo and Sunday afternoon litter tray surfing.
Let is look at how this is arrived at first of all we take the transfer impedance at a given frequency we are looking at say 30Mhz (top of the Cisper 14 standard) the transfer impedance at this point would 18.09 which you would subtract from the given reading on your instrument which would in dBuV this would then deliver the correct value in dBuA
one observation I would like to make at least three of the devices tested have zero foils or connecting wires / cat littler or vampire poo inside.
Like cables this subject will cause division across the the great audio divide please do get on with the slanging match but jumping on people is very rude let them speak, then have your say cat piss try not withstanding :)
Have is if you like the way they sound use them, but please don't try to tell the world that your foil with a pure copper wire going to it, in an electrically transparent box filled with kitty litter first invented by tractor repair guy was smarter than all institutions of higher learning and research; about the make-up of our reality. :)
Hello Folsom
I do not believe I did suggest cat piss absorber in a box was a great product or that mains voltage is another more than 50/60Hz at consumer level here or across the pond.
The frequencies I am talking about are much higher, and do have an effect on a lot of electronic circuits not just audio funny you should mention higher seats of learning earlier this year I attended a specialist conference organised by Rohde and Schwarz in which one of the lectures was specifically aimed at low frequency EMC emissions and the problem it causes and generates by Lee Hill, founding partner of SILENT Solutions LLC & GmbH he lectures at Oxford Uni during the the lecture was aim at 1Mhz and under (DC in RF engineers eyes any way!) very interesting indeed and very relevant.
And no alloy window frames and cat litter granules were not discussed.
I sure the tractor engineer is doing well selling his vampire poo to those who wish to purchase it.
AJSki2fly
26-07-2020, 20:17
"49uV of current"?
My education must all be wrong.
Anyway I've just placed a thick piece of spare mains cable from the Hi-Fi to the cat's litter tray, and I'm waiting for him to piss in it.
[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hello Folsom
I do not believe I did suggest cat piss absorber in a box was a great product or that mains voltage is another more than 50/60Hz at consumer level here or across the pond.
The frequencies I am talking about are much higher, and do have an effect on a lot of electronic circuits not just audio funny you should mention higher seats of learning earlier this year I attended a specialist conference organised by Rohde and Schwarz in which one of the lectures was specifically aimed at low frequency EMC emissions and the problem it causes and generates by Lee Hill, founding partner of SILENT Solutions LLC & GmbH he lectures at Oxford Uni during the the lecture was aim at 1Mhz and under (DC in RF engineers eyes any way!) very interesting indeed and very relevant.
And no alloy window frames and cat litter granules were not discussed.
I sure the tractor engineer is doing well selling his vampire poo to those who wish to purchase it.
Whoaa, I had no idea someone called grounding boxes vampire poo. :lol:
Kitty litter is the nick name for the stuff in grounding boxes, it's usually a bunch of piezo materials.
EMC emission is fascinating. (may even contribute to alzheimer's) But as you say that wasn't discussed. All of them would tell you the same thing, a "grounding" box is an antenna. What they don't know is how to explain why it can result in sonic improvements, because from their perspective adding RF cannot be an improvement under any lens. However we in the audio world know not all improvements are gained through better measurements.
Connecting a spare length of interconnect connected only at ground, from a spare RCA socket running to an (Earth connected only) plug hooked up to the wall can sound better too.
Equipment dependant as per usual.
Similar thinking? :scratch:
anthonyTD
27-07-2020, 10:58
My own personal feelings of how these things may [or may not] work, and thus how in theory; could possibly have an affect on Audio systems, has changed somewhat since I first started researching them, well,,, I say researching, what I mean is, looking into them, and my current theory is this;
They are an Antenna, and like all Antenna’s they are tuned to receive/pick up paticular bands of frequencies, and since these devices are usually connected to the 0V of one’s system, where depending on how well the system as a whole is connected to each other, there can for arguments sake be spurious high frequencies present, thus the Antenna, and the frequencies it is tuned to react to and receive, may or may not be out of phase with the frequencies floating around the 0v of the system, and thus may or may not have a crude kind of cancelation affect at certain frequencies.
Just my ramblings!
A...
My own personal feelings of how these things may [or may not] work, and thus how in theory; could possibly have an affect on Audio systems, has changed somewhat since I first started researching them, well,,, I say researching, what I mean is, looking into them, and my current theory is this;
They are an Antenna, and like all Antenna’s they are tuned to receive/pick up paticular bands of frequencies, and since these devices are usually connected to the 0V of one’s system, where depending on how well the system as a whole is connected to each other, there can for arguments sake be spurious high frequencies present, thus the Antenna, and the frequencies it is tuned to react to and receive, may or may not be out of phase with the frequencies floating around the 0v of the system, and thus may or may not have a crude kind of cancelation affect at certain frequencies.
Just my ramblings!
A...
kinda my take too..noise cancellation on occasion, and maybe sometimes making it worse or no effect
Going back to the antenna thoughts, if you like, you can just use a cable with an rca or xlr connector on one end and the leave the other end open or terminated with a 50Ohm resistor. To which you can cut down to a particular length, just like the ham radio guys do to perform a VSWR test to achieve the closest most desirable standing wave ratio of one for a given frequency. That would would help you with your thoughts of that one Anthony and can done for very little outlay plus zero vampire poo involvement. May take a little time to achieve the desired results but a cost effective way of trying out a theroy.
You could even use a CB vswr meter and some N type connectors however it may prove useful.
anthonyTD
27-07-2020, 12:45
Maybe we should all go back to the days where all your hi-fi was in one nicely presented[ or not, depending on taste :eek: ] piece of furniture, where all the individual parts ie; Turntable,Tuner, and tape, whether 8 track or the new fangled Casette, were all on the same short ground or 0V, where there was lesser chance of these harmful frequencies [brought about by the use of seperates, joined together by fancy interconnects, and mains leads, cobbling everything together all at an average of 1mtr apart] to impede on our listening enjoyment of the latest trending artist of the day, yes, lets bring back,,,the Radiogram/Stereogram! :D
A...
Why not indeed I remember the Bush stereo music center, radio, cassette and LP's spoilt for choice we were in them days :eyebrows:
Plus zero vampire poo to boot
My own personal feelings of how these things may [or may not] work, and thus how in theory; could possibly have an affect on Audio systems, has changed somewhat since I first started researching them, well,,, I say researching, what I mean is, looking into them, and my current theory is this;
They are an Antenna, and like all Antenna’s they are tuned to receive/pick up paticular bands of frequencies, and since these devices are usually connected to the 0V of one’s system, where depending on how well the system as a whole is connected to each other, there can for arguments sake be spurious high frequencies present, thus the Antenna, and the frequencies it is tuned to react to and receive, may or may not be out of phase with the frequencies floating around the 0v of the system, and thus may or may not have a crude kind of cancelation affect at certain frequencies.
Just my ramblings!
A...
Right, except the "cancellation" part is just something audiophiles tell themselves to make themselves feel better. The increase in noise is easily measurable.
Here's a tid-bit, there's a company that makes RF generators you can place around the room. They say the "cancellation" bit but in real time we can barely do cancellation in a small amount of octaves for the audio band, just enough to make a pair of headphones slightly quieter to the outside world. What we can't do is real time RF phase cancellation - not even close. If we could we wouldn't use jammers as we know them today, they'd be totally different. You would be able to emit small cancellation waves of other WiFi networks so your signal would be better... none of this is possible with our tech today.
This is classic assumption that better sound = better measurements and it just isn't the subjective reality we all live in. But if you talk to someone not in the audio field they'll assume when you say something sounds better that it measures better... they just don't know.
MIilitary RF Interference Cancellation has been going on for some time
MIilitary RF Interference Cancellation has been going on for some time
....
It isn't phase cancellation that leaves anything clean behind. Not even close. The frequencies are too small to be able to do that.
anthonyTD
27-07-2020, 15:51
:eek::)
Why not indeed I remember the Bush stereo music center, radio, cassette and LP's spoilt for choice we were in them days :eyebrows:
Plus zero vampire poo to boot
anthonyTD
27-07-2020, 15:54
Be interesting to hear a bit more of your take on it Jeremy :)
Right, except the "cancellation" part is just something audiophiles tell themselves to make themselves feel better. The increase in noise is easily measurable.
Here's a tid-bit, there's a company that makes RF generators you can place around the room. They say the "cancellation" bit but in real time we can barely do cancellation in a small amount of octaves for the audio band, just enough to make a pair of headphones slightly quieter to the outside world. What we can't do is real time RF phase cancellation - not even close. If we could we wouldn't use jammers as we know them today, they'd be totally different. You would be able to emit small cancellation waves of other WiFi networks so your signal would be better... none of this is possible with our tech today.
This is classic assumption that better sound = better measurements and it just isn't the subjective reality we all live in. But if you talk to someone not in the audio field they'll assume when you say something sounds better that it measures better... they just don't know.
Connecting a spare length of interconnect connected only at ground, from a spare RCA socket running to an (Earth connected only) plug hooked up to the wall can sound better too.
Equipment dependant as per usual.
Similar thinking? :scratch:
Someone here tried exactly that, and found (to their ears at least) it made no difference.
walpurgis
27-07-2020, 15:59
Someone here tried exactly that, and found (to their ears at least) it made no difference.
Yes. Somebody was going on about this a year or two back, so a made a lead to try it. As expected, it had no audible effect.
Yes. Somebody was going on about this a year or two back, so made a lead to try it. As expected, it had no audible effect.
I didn't want to 'name names'. ;)
Well Dennis why do you try that you may find illuminating.
You see this why forums are both delightful and full of people seeking entertainment outside the mundane lives full internet warriors won a mission to Mars via a vespa, spoiling for a fight
Your eduction is not incorrect just my typing skills and size of my hands are shall we say are not up to par today.
For the correct actual measured unit you are looking for is dBuA decibel micro amps for which I can only apologise for my typo and Sunday afternoon litter tray surfing.
Let is look at how this is arrived at first of all we take the transfer impedance at a given frequency we are looking at say 30Mhz (top of the Cisper 14 standard) the transfer impedance at this point would 18.09 which you would subtract from the given reading on your instrument which would in dBuV this would then deliver the correct value in dBuA
one observation I would like to make at least three of the devices tested have zero foils or connecting wires / cat littler or vampire poo inside.
Like cables this subject will cause division across the the great audio divide please do get on with the slanging match but jumping on people is very rude let them speak, then have your say cat piss try not withstanding :)
I haven't intended any 'slanging', but I was a bit surprised at the current/voltage mistake.
My education is not as up to date as many here, and so I am not familiar with many newer standards. But, I think my circuit theory is adequate and in tact.
I cannot really see how such a box can have any beneficial effect, given the equivalent cct. Any desire to receive RF would be better fulfilled if the device were not on the ground surely?
I didn't really connect a cable to the cat's litter box, just find the whole thing amusing. But if I heard a difference DB, what then.
It may be like the mysterious effect from my Nelson-Jones class A 10 +10 which produced a weirdly increased sense of 'air', and which someone said was TIM.
Connecting a spare length of interconnect connected only at ground, from a spare RCA socket running to an (Earth connected only) plug hooked up to the wall can sound better too.
Equipment dependant as per usual.
Similar thinking? :scratch:
I'd like to witness that.
Maybe we should all go back to the days where all your hi-fi was in one nicely presented[ or not, depending on taste :eek: ] piece of furniture, where all the individual parts ie; Turntable,Tuner, and tape, whether 8 track or the new fangled Casette, were all on the same short ground or 0V, where there was lesser chance of these harmful frequencies [brought about by the use of seperates, joined together by fancy interconnects, and mains leads, cobbling everything together all at an average of 1mtr apart] to impede on our listening enjoyment of the latest trending artist of the day, yes, lets bring back,,,the Radiogram/Stereogram! :D
A...
That does raise the question of why studios don't seem to even observe such problems or 'solutions', and they often have many exposed leads on patch bays.
Wakefield Turntables
27-07-2020, 16:57
Interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgqYdq0VgKg however, he doesn't really nail his colours to the mast one way or another. Frustrating !
Trying to cancel waveforms at high frequencies presents massive problems with phasing because distances are so small, and even with one known waveform it would need fine tuning. But with wideband, attempts at it seem impossible to me.
Be interesting to hear a bit more of your take on it Jeremy :)
I've posted a bit, but please ask any questions.
My basic premise is that if you like them use them, just don't try to fight the facts about what they are.
In audio why is everyone so obsessed with validating their hearing preference? Why isn't ok to just say, "I like it" ?
That is more or less what Andrew wrote in post 11.
anthonyTD
27-07-2020, 18:38
Fair point, However; would you also consider that its possible that connecting an Antena to the 0V of one's system, could actualy give these stray high frequency voltages a path of least resistance to escape the equipment its connected to, now don't get me wrong, this is not something i have given much thought to until now, but i assume that its probably one theory thats been hinted at. Again, your thoughts are very welcome.
I've posted a bit, but please ask any questions.
My basic premise is that if you like them use them, just don't try to fight the facts about what they are.
In audio why is everyone so obsessed with validating their hearing preference? Why isn't ok to just say, "I like it" ?
That does raise the question of why studios don't seem to even observe such problems or 'solutions', and they often have many exposed leads on patch bays.
Perhaps due their use of balanced-line interconnections. Anything that allows earth currents and noise on the mains safety earth to mix with the 0V or signal return is going to be a possible problem.
Fair point, However; would you also consider that its possible that connecting an Antena to the 0V of one's system, could actualy give these stray high frequency voltages a path of least resistance to escape the equipment its connected to, now don't get me wrong, this is not something i have given much thought to until now, but i assume that its probably one theory thats been hinted at. Again, your thoughts are very welcome.
No, I would not. That would require a fundamental change in the fabric of our reality to be possible. Literally atoms themselves could not function that way as we know them today. There is nothing to consider unless you're writing fiction.
What is the objection to accepting the very engineering that makes your stereo possible, being applied to this subject? Why is it that all documentation ever written is insufficient? Do you believe all the huge text books on electronics are simply wrong? Are all the PHD's on planet earth insufficient? I guess I'm asking what would it take for you to accept fact?
The most basic concept of electricity is you need a complete circuit. How is a box completed if it isn't in part of a loop? Just for reference the impedance of air is 1.3*10^16 to 3.3* 10^16 ohm so you expect that to be the path that noise would follow? Because in order for a complete circuit to be made it would have to pass through the air and back to something that's part of the electrical system.
The Black Adder
27-07-2020, 19:24
As a believer of my friends opinion, I'm finding this subject to be very interesting. He has an amazing system which he loves.
Okay, plenty of mystique surrounds the technical side and it's certainly debatable. But in my research of this subject it comes down to the end user. People who try these things say they work, not all but a good majority say they do.
It's okay to be sceptical but until you try it first hand I'd like this one to be kept open to intelligent debate.
The concept of an electrical circuit becomes a bit nebulous at radio frequencies and above, so the fact that air has a resistivity of around 2.1016 Ωm is largely irrelevant. What is more important, from the point of view of an antenna, is that the impedance of free space is 377Ω.
In fact it the purpose of the antenna to match the impedance of free space to that of the receiver. This means antennae are band limited in their response. However that does not mean an inefficient antenna (i.e. one that does not offer a good impedance match at a specific frequency) cannot pick up RFI: it has been suggested that unshielded speaker cables of modest length can act as very inefficient antennae to AM broadcast transmissions (especially if the transmitter has a large ERP and is close by) and these can ‘feed back’ into the amplifier, become demodulated and ‘beat’ with the audio signal.
So whilst I think that a folded copper plate immersed in “kitty litter” (yes I know the stuff is a mixture of perovskite and piezoelectric minerals) might make an inefficient antenna to RF, in connecting it to earth via the safety earth of the audio components the, admittedly small, currents do have a chance to mix with the wanted audio signal current, if the signal return and safety earth are one and the same.
The concept of an electrical circuit becomes a bit nebulous at radio frequencies and above, so the fact that air has a resistivity of around 2.1016 Ωm is largely irrelevant. What is more important, from the point of view of an antenna, is that the impedance of free space is 377Ω.
In fact it the purpose of the antenna to match the impedance of free space to that of the receiver. This means antennae are band limited in their response. However that does not mean an inefficient antenna (i.e. one that does not offer a good impedance match at a specific frequency) cannot pick up RFI: it has been suggested that unshielded speaker cables of modest length can act as very inefficient antennae to AM broadcast transmissions (especially if the transmitter has a large ERP and is close by) and these can ‘feed back’ into the amplifier, become demodulated and ‘beat’ with the audio signal.
So whilst I think that a folded copper plate immersed in “kitty litter” (yes I know the stuff is a mixture of perovskite and piezoelectric minerals) might make an inefficient antenna to RF, in connecting it to earth via the safety earth of the audio components the, admittedly small, currents do have a chance to mix with the wanted audio signal current, if the signal return and safety earth are one and the same.
To be clear the ground box dangles in the wind, it isn't connected by safety ground (which earth is connected to) to form a loop, the only path to that ground is through the equipment (if there is one depending on the box's recommended connection and the component). And complete circuits still exist in RF, they're just much more complex. Where you could draw say 10 elements prior in a circuit, with RF frequencies you may need to introduce another 10+ for things occurring that aren't represented properly by simple parts in the schematic (example inductance of leads, inductance of tracing, parasitics, etc).
anthonyTD
27-07-2020, 20:37
Again, thanks for your input, and as stated this theory is not one of mine, but its one that some have eluded to!
No, I would not. That would require a fundamental change in the fabric of our reality to be possible. Literally atoms themselves could not function that way as we know them today. There is nothing to consider unless you're writing fiction.
What is the objection to accepting the very engineering that makes your stereo possible, being applied to this subject? Why is it that all documentation ever written is insufficient? Do you believe all the huge text books on electronics are simply wrong? Are all the PHD's on planet earth insufficient? I guess I'm asking what would it take for you to accept fact?
The most basic concept of electricity is you need a complete circuit. How is a box completed if it isn't in part of a loop? Just for reference the impedance of air is 1.3*10^16 to 3.3* 10^16 ohm so you expect that to be the path that noise would follow? Because in order for a complete circuit to be made it would have to pass through the air and back to something that's part of the electrical system.
The metal plate in the grounding box is connected to something - whether to the mains safety earth or to the signal 'ground' of the equipment, the current of the RFI picked up goes somewhere, as do those of an antenna.
I didn't say complete circuits don't exist at RF, they do, but they are far less straightforward and clear cut, hence my term "nebulous". A better term would have been "vague", or "not simple".
Draw the circuit for a waveguide - in fact define the impedance of a waveguide, or even a coaxial cable at high frequency. Things become complicated at RF due to the distributed nature of physical electrical properties such as capacitance and inductance. At very high frequencies it is easier to think in terms of the distributed electric and magnetic field strengths than of voltage and current.
Jac Hawk
27-07-2020, 21:21
I've read this thread with interest and looked at the cost of these boxes, they aren't cheap, my feeling for what it's worth is even if it works there's not going to be a night and day difference if there was then there would be no debate and it would be an accepted necessary piece of kit, I'd like to see the results of a blind test and i think people who have bought them want to hear a difference to justify the outlay, i mean if you have just spent upwards of £400 on a wooden box of gravel you're going to want to tell yourself there's a difference and you haven't just wasted a load of cash on a very expensive box of dirt, so for me at the moment these things sit in the "Snake Oil" category.
Yes, but presumably people who have bought them have already heard the difference they make (to their ears at least, and hopefully in their own system), before they parted with their money.
I don't think many people fork out £400 without thought, so 'expectation bias' ought not come into it.
At RF, current takes the path of lowest impedance, so (playing Devil's advocate!) I wonder if these boxes are acting as some sort of RF ground / sink rather than a hard DC ground. A lot of the literature does not help, painting them as some magical ground boxes and not looking into the science of what could be happening.
Am not sure the term "grounding box" helps either... maybe "RF noise sink" or something, or maybe I am chatting bollocks...
At RF, current takes the path of lowest impedance, so (playing Devil's advocate!) I wonder if these boxes are acting as some sort of RF ground / sink rather than a hard DC ground. A lot of the literature does not help, painting them as some magical ground boxes and not looking into the science of what could be happening.
Am not sure the term "grounding box" helps either... maybe "RF noise sink" or something, or maybe I am chatting bollocks...
Wonder no more. The answer is still no.
Why is the answer that they add RF unacceptable if you like the results? Are egos more important than the sound someone likes?
People enjoy second harmonic distortion generators, that’s acceptable but RF is a no?
mad-moon
28-07-2020, 00:01
Yep, agree. I'm science based, but with this hobby, as we know it's not that simple, so I have a simple adage for my own personal system and requirements. If I think it sounds good then it goes in my system if not it stays out. I'm not bothered about anyone else! ;)
:thumbsup:
I’m too jaded for all this. Some of the biggest improvements I’ve made is removing all the devices I’ve spent a fortune on and going back to basics....
Yes, but presumably people who have bought them have already heard the difference they make (to their ears at least, and hopefully in their own system), before they parted with their money.
I don't think many people fork out £400 without thought, so 'expectation bias' ought not come into it.
Not at all. Unconscious bias is always a possibility. Intuitively we think our senses connect us directly with objective reality when in fact there is a buffer in between, the brain, which can add all sorts of things to our perception.
This is good healthy debate, usual one side v's the other but good interactions keep it coming coming, Barry I feel you are closer so far to towards what is happening RF wise. To complete a circuit in RF terms Tx & Rx then air is your dielectric and transmission line (the same as a piece of wire in a circuit) how else does a mobile phone work? Signal has a transmit and receive point no wires involved in that situation.
Noise on the mains earth line is easily seen on a power analyzer or oscilloscope and is quantifiable, we are not talking about incoming earth ground noise. To which you can deal via separate means. We are talking about internally generated RF which happens in pretty much all electrical equipment to a greater or less degree depending on design, usage and how much thought was put into emc suppression techniques.
As Jez mentioned you 'Canna change the laws of physics' unless you are some Omnipotent being who's ability to manipulate matter by sheer thought (Paul Miller :eek::eek:) , so back to reality. Energy can only have it's state changed it doesn't disappear :eyebrows:.
For example electrical DC energy going through a LVDO from say 9vdc to 5.5vdc will have a lot of his power (energy) converted to heat as with many things in EE (electrical engineering)
So what happens to the RF energy? in a grounding box, my thermal camera is pretty sensitive, but never seen a unit vampire poo container at anything other than a couple of degrees above ambient temp?
Back to possibilities and rf generation inside audio equipment, many things generate RF interference, switching regulators, FET's clocks, integrated circuits, poorly designed circuit pathways, FPGA's big spewer of RF (Dave anyone? :lol:) Mains borne ingress plus many other reasons.
Now a couple of examples of measured RF inside audio equipment.
First image of the equipment used, the next two of a highly reviewed Dac that measures exceptionally well and used that much vaulted 575 Crystek clock model. First image was measured at the analogue XLR outputs after all of the digital conversion had taken place, the second is after I had implemented a series of RF reduction techniques and measured in the same place. This was after it was given a glowing review by a well known internet site and praised to the hilt.
https://coherent-systems.co.uk/images/575-clock-Before-work-carried-out.jpg
https://coherent-systems.co.uk/images/575-clock-after-work-carried-out.jpg
The results was very nice improvement in tonal quality, virtual elimination of upper frequency harsh, and forwardness coupled with a much better sense of ease to the sound. This was purely the high frequency harmonics of the leading clock edge which put out up to and over 2Ghz (l saw over 35 harmonic incidents) so although humans cannot by any stretch of the imagination have any perception of the actual frequencies at this level what we can have a perception of is how these frequencies effect the ones we do have a perception of. As on how these RF frequencies effect the other components inside the equipment and by removing them the sonic differences observed. Audio analyzers only look at frequencies around 200Khz (192Khz) if you have a fancy one with add on's maybe 768Khz via DoP. However the fundamental clock frequency of this dac is 100Mhz so no audio analyses looks at frequencies this high. Which is why its not picked up in the initial measurements. The figures maybe great BUT they do not tell the whole truth, that your ear's job!
Now the same achievement was demonstrated by connecting two grounding leads one to each of the various 0 volt rails, you only have my word for this I understand and I could say absolutely anything to try and persuade you that kit litter containers are the holy grail, simply not the case.
So back to kitter litter containers chaps..........................
anthonyTD
28-07-2020, 09:51
I tend to agree ie; concerning high frequencies way out of the Audio band, having an affect on what we can hear, and again,I also agree that Dac's are very problematic, especialy when choosing the type of filtering used, and power supply design etc.
As you say, you cannot create or destroy an energy, you can only convert it, however; some would argue that energy, as a fundamental doesent actualy exist!
A...
Hi Tony
Indeed dark matter et al is best left to those who very intelligent conceptual minds can wrap around those quantum reality theorems. Though with such intrinsic tunnel thinking other everyday items are quite tricky for them!
I have plenty of examples of measurable RF energy using a transmission line this time a cable (lol) to progress from one point of the audio system to another, is also varies as the individual items in the system are switched on in turn causing an accumulated effect.
Whether you can categorically state this is the Vampire poo effect I can not say 100% in any shape or form. What I can observe in REAL TIME is that the amount of RF energy in dBuV increases with the more audio equipment that is connected to the Poo box.
This is repeatable in every system I have taken these measurements mostly in customers homes.
This is not conclusive proof of whether these boxes work by the means stated in any way, but what it does show is that RF is present in places you would not expect those pesky kids to be! Just to say I firmly believe there is ground to be covered here which is why in the last 18 months I have personally invested over six figures in high quality test equipment for investigations in the field of audio and well beyond.
anthonyTD
28-07-2020, 11:36
:)
I have often said; that every perceived, and therefore repeatable diffrence heard in audio replay, from whatever the cause, can be tested for, if you know where to look, and how to test it, i think we are starting to undertand that not all that glitters is gold, hence there is a need to look elsewhere to find the reason why some things not currently understood, can cause the affects we can clearly hear.
A...
Hi Tony
Indeed dark matter et al is best left to those who very intelligent conceptual minds can wrap around those quantum reality theorems. Though with such intrinsic tunnel thinking other everyday items are quite tricky for them!
I have plenty of examples of measurable RF energy using a transmission line this time a cable (lol) to progress from one point of the audio system to another, is also varies as the individual items in the system are switched on in turn causing an accumulated effect.
Whether you can categorically state this is the Vampire poo effect I can not say 100% in any shape or form. What I can observe in REAL TIME is that the amount of RF energy in dBuV increases with the more audio equipment that is connected to the Poo box.
This is repeatable in every system I have taken these measurements mostly in customers homes.
This is not conclusive proof of whether these boxes work by the means stated in any way, but what it does show is that RF is present in places you would not expect those pesky kids to be! Just to say I firmly believe there is ground to be covered here which is why in the last 18 months I have personally invested over six figures in high quality test equipment for investigations in the field of audio and well beyond.
:)
I have often said; that every perceived, and therefore repeatable diffrence heard in audio replay, from whatever the cause, can be tested for, if you know where to look, and how to test it, i think we are starting to undertand that not all that glitters is gold, hence there is a need to look elsewhere to find the reason why some things not currently understood, can cause the affects we can clearly hear.
A...
First of all you have to establish beyond reasonable doubt that we can 'clearly hear them'. That doesn't seem to have been done yet with regard to these boxes.
anthonyTD
28-07-2020, 11:54
Of course! :)
First of all you have to establish beyond reasonable doubt that we can 'clearly hear them'.
First of all you have to establish beyond reasonable doubt that we can 'clearly hear them'. That doesn't seem to have been done yet with regard to these boxes.
I'm adamant about the reality of the devices being antenna... but I would never deny you can hear the effect. Your asking the question in such a way you'd want proof you can hear it to then investigate an objective improvement (that you won't find). What's the point?
I'm adamant about the reality of the devices being antenna... but I would never deny you can hear the effect. Your asking the question in such a way you'd want proof you can hear it to then investigate an objective improvement (that you won't find). What's the point?
because it seems to me that there's no point in trying to determine what causes the effect until it's been established that there is an effect to begin with.
I believe it has been shown that the Entreq box, or rather the cable that attaches it, can act as an antennae and pick up RF. But it's a jump to say that RF has any discernible effect on what we hear coming out of the speakers or headphones.
The logical approach, it seems to me, would be to test if people can actually hear a difference, and once that's been established beyond reasonable doubt, then proceed with trying to work out why.
there's no point spending money on the device unless it does something that is actually audible, regardless of what it is that it does. It may have properties that can be measured, but are still not audible, just like any other item of hi-fi equipment.
If someone get the chance to hear one first without putting any readies down, and they think its an improvement, why shouldn't they buy one?
Theory be damned if someone thinks it sounds better to them, go for it.
No need for a feasibility study?
NOT to be bought without hearing though I'd say!
AJSki2fly
28-07-2020, 16:23
because it seems to me that there's no point in trying to determine what causes the effect until it's been established that there is an effect to begin with.
I believe it has been shown that the Entreq box, or rather the cable that attaches it, can act as an antennae and pick up RF. But it's a jump to say that RF has any discernible effect on what we hear coming out of the speakers or headphones.
The logical approach, it seems to me, would be to test if people can actually hear a difference, and once that's been established beyond reasonable doubt, then proceed with trying to work out why.
there's no point spending money on the device unless it does something that is actually audible, regardless of what it is that it does. It may have properties that can be measured, but are still not audible, just like any other item of hi-fi equipment.
I tend to agree with you Martin, I remember there was a similar very long thread on the same subject about grounding boxes which divided people greatly. I was going to use a wine box and make one up myself with said crystals etc, and various ferro-magnetic materials, I have a list somewheres, and try it out to see if there was any improvement, or even deterioration for that matter. I had forgotten all about doing it until this thread.
If someone get the chance to hear one first without putting any readies down, and they think its an improvement, why shouldn't they buy one?
Theory be damned if someone thinks it sounds better to them, go for it.
No need for a feasibility study?
NOT to be bought without hearing though I'd say!
Yes, if it's a big difference I'd agree. But if it is a subtle difference, something nebulous like 'wider soundstage' I'd still be cautious that the effect was not psychological. If it is psychological you'll find out down the line, after you spent the money, because it won't be a persistent effect. You'll unplug the contraption one day and realise that nothing has changed.
Yes, if it's a big difference I'd agree. But if it is a subtle difference, something nebulous like 'wider soundstage' I'd still be cautious that the effect was not psychological. If it is psychological you'll find out down the line, after you spent the money, because it won't be a persistent effect. You'll unplug the contraption one day and realise that nothing has changed.
I know many people who lived with them after buying a bunch of them and accumulating as many as they could use, then one day removing all of them after building up their army. When they removed them all at once to verify claims against them they liked the sound better and didn't put them back in!
Yes, if it's a big difference I'd agree. But if it is a subtle difference, something nebulous like 'wider soundstage' I'd still be cautious that the effect was not psychological. If it is psychological you'll find out down the line, after you spent the money, because it won't be a persistent effect. You'll unplug the contraption one day and realise that nothing has changed.
Oh aye, absolutely.
There's definitely a Psychological aspect to this, all I'm saying is there's no hard and fast single rule for whether it "works".
A lot of variables, and human perception is sure one of them.
WullieD20
28-07-2020, 16:45
You'll unplug the contraption one day and realise that nothing has changed.
A very valid point IMHO.
So many times (especially with cables), I have borrowed kit that doesn't sound as if it is offering much of an improvement . . . until such time (after keeping it for a day or three) I unplug it and reverse the system to my original component(s), only to discover that it doesn't sound as good as it did before I reverted it!!
An excellent way to realise the level of appreciation you can discover with different equipment.
Some very reasoned points there chaps excellent debate.
Below are a couple more images of my findings this time at a customers house, I took base line readings of the audio system equipment all off this was taken at the customers vampire poo box. System had been off from the previous evening. Span of the spectrum analyser is from 10Khz to 750Mhz and resolution bandwidth is pretty tight @ 3Khz it also matches the VBW as well. Mixer level @ -10dbm, ref levels @-65dbm
The second screenshot is with all three system components now switched on but not actually playing. you can clearly see the disturbances start around 84Mhz and extend up to around the 230Mhz region so far and away beyond the audio band of 20Khz
Measurements were taken with a 6.5Ghz Real time spectrum analyser using an optional OXCO reference clock 0.5ppm stability and a 500Mhz rf passive probe (BW useable up to 800Mhz) used for conducted emissions emc testing. Both pieces of test equipment are fully calibrated to UKAS standards. Test leads are T-flex 405 18Ghz ultra low loss lab cables
The probe was placed around one of the grounding leads approx 60mm before entering the device.
Bear in mind these figures are -dBm so in reality the larger peaks are around +5dBm from the base line reading.
What does it all mean................over to you guys
https://coherent-systems.co.uk/images/All--system-power-off.png
https://coherent-systems.co.uk/images/Streamer_pre-power-on.png
Wakefield Turntables
28-07-2020, 19:13
What about the concept of level of cost compared against level of enjoyment. The concept is simple in that do I feel my cash outlay is worth the increased enjoyment/pleasure I experience every time I listen to my system. If the answer is no then it's a complete waste of money, irrespective of cost, if the answer is yes then the investment is a long term worthwhile investment. I've never heard a grounding box in my system so I can't quantify this concept. I love reading the science and at least some people are making an attempt to explain how these things work. Me, personally, I'll keep my money in the bank until I can hear one in my system. It's irrelevant listening to these things in other peoples systems, they simply don't replicate what you own in your own listening room.
Tony, it's not clear to me what the yellow and blue traces represent in both of the screen shots?
Hi Barry
The brown trace is live trace the blue is max hold (peak) each image is taken after 100 average sweeps each taking 1 ms I can tighten down the rbw to around 100hz at this bandwidth but the sweep time would very long.
Have other large data files which are which demonstrate very similar results in over 30 systems all different configurations.
Not trying to convince anyone that this a magic bullet I am curious as to why this demonstrates sonic differences so I decide to look into what could possibly be having an effect. I have had a good journey so far in exploring this area of vampire poo
At the weekend I will narrow the dweep bw down to a peak spread and perform a full RTA this gives access to spectral density which would an easier way to interpret the results
We need to clearly identify a change, or what we think is a change, and then DB test for it.
The smaller the change, the more susceptible to both error and the psychological failure mechanisms; pre-conception and expectation bias. Worst of all, placebophilia.
Ignoring high clock rates and oscillators, which should be screened off, I cannot accept that the deliberate introduction of RF signals into audio equipment is ccts going to be positive in any way.
We need to clearly identify a change, or what we think is a change, and then DB test for it.
The smaller the change, the more susceptible to both error and the psychological failure mechanisms; pre-conception and expectation bias. Worst of all, placebophilia.
Ignoring high clock rates and oscillators, which should be screened off, I cannot accept that the deliberate introduction of RF signals into audio equipment is ccts going to be positive in any way.
It's been suggested that it acts like dither in a digital system, I.e it reduces distortion at the expense of adding some noise.
Ignoring high clock rates and oscillators, which should be screened off, I cannot accept that the deliberate introduction of RF signals into audio equipment is ccts going to be positive in any way.
I am in complete agreement with you, so many dac/streamer design has poor rfi management, although you will never really remove it all just not possible, however you can improve matters no end with care design considerations.
Also these devices DO NOT inject any form of RF at all, what is shown is the measurement actually going into the box itself, not the other way round. This is with the box actually connected to the audio system.
The first image I put up in the first pair of screenshots is showing the the RF measured at the balanced analogue output xlr socket.
Can offer some further information from customer feedback from a loan device they tried, gent has an all streaming system in his front from by a bay window where is router is located, he uses a short 1m RJ45 to his streamer. He placed one of these devices quite close to the router (8 inches) as he has limited space on his rack.
I received a long phone call from the chap who was tearing his hair out as to why his streamer was now not working and the internet could not see the control device no matter what he tried. We ran through the obvious and not so obvious reasons. Both stumped??
So thinking Sherlockian if you have eliminated the logical only the illogical remains, also usually try the last thing you did also helps!
He took out the the device and hey presto internet returned, they upshot was this, his i-pad could not connect via wifi (and the other wifi devices in house had the same issue) although the streamer could see the IP as it was hard wired. So something was killing both the 2.4 and 5Ghz bandwidths stone dead.
That weekend I went to see him to investigate after much time involved the result was moving the VP device onto the floor resting on a wooden block, all wifi back to normal plus a happy chappie. This has happened one other time with a dealer friend of mine. Maybe a clue maybe a red herring but the effect was real.
It is beyond me that dither can reduce distortion in these circumstances.
Preventing entrance of external undesired RF seems to me to be a rational approach, as well as mag fields; good screening and mu metal practices. The prevalence of RF is a real problem, and likely to grow.
It is beyond me that dither can reduce distortion in these circumstances.
.
I agree, I think it is straw-clutching. But the theory is out there nonetheless.
AJSki2fly
29-07-2020, 14:55
It is beyond me that dither can reduce distortion in these circumstances.
Preventing entrance of external undesired RF seems to me to be a rational approach, as well as mag fields; good screening and mu metal practices. The prevalence of RF is a real problem, and likely to grow.
Time to build and live inside a Farady cage. :eek:
Time to build and live inside a Farady cage. :eek:
Lol oddly enough I do for at least 30 hours a week:mental: my lab is very well shielded.
Here is a very odd but strangely true scenario, earlier this year I was working on a new pre amplifier design and was finishing off its ac line filtration circuit during pre compliance testing. The previous week I had just upgrade the labs mains power circuits and lighting to LED's so feeling pleased with my efforts I set up the equipment for the EC stands required Cisper 16. Now for this you need a isolation transformer for the DUT and the ground plane.
After around 30m minutes of testing I was getting so real spurious readings really struggled to get my head around them. I ended up tearing down the set up and taking to measuring the individual instruments themselves just to try and eliminate the blasted common mode noise.
Turn out to be a rather expensive bench power supply causing a heap of CMN, no here is the strange thing, even with the unit connected via an isolation (which lifts the earth) transformer the noise was still present. So even after switching the unit off at the power switch the noise is still present??? :stalks:
Ok must be me going somewhat mad, so I took out the mains plug from the bench psu guess what STILL there :rolleyes:
Now the scopes and analysers are power by one side of the mains circuit, the other power supplies, iso transformers dc loads and ac power supplies are powered by the other side of the CU.
Now one of the new LED lights is an overhead bench unit for intricate work it has a delightful SMPS though it is one the scope side of the mains, well taking this out of the socket removed all of the noise from the dc power supply even with the unit UNPLUGGED.
This is an example of radiated RF in the real world and the switching frequncy 67Khz you really could not make this up, you do need ot be on your toes when taking low level measurements.
A poxy SMPS caused almost a days worth of testing time loss, project completion time -1 day experience gained invaluable
Time to build and live inside a Farady cage. :eek:
Not if you want to use a mobile phone! ;)
Not if you want to use a mobile phone! ;)
You could leave your phone on a table next to the cage. If it rings, stick your head out to answer it.
I didn't think of that - I assumed the whole living space would be a Faraday cage!
I was assuming just a literal cage. Like you might keep a dog in. Only bigger. Big enough to stick a chair and a beer fridge in. Even if it was the whole building you'd have to leave it to go to the shops and that I suppose.
walpurgis
29-07-2020, 17:22
Is a Faraday Cage earthed or not? Never considered it before.
And, assuming it has polarity, what result would you get from another Faraday Cage inside it of opposite polarity?
Is a Faraday Cage earthed or not? Never considered it before.
And, assuming it has polarity, what result would you get from another Faraday Cage inside it of opposite polarity?
Doesn't have be, but it is probably more effective if it is earthed.
Why should a Faraday cage have a ploarity?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve6XGKZxYxA
walpurgis
29-07-2020, 17:40
Why should a Faraday cage have a ploarity?
You tell me. :)
Light Dependant Resistor
29-07-2020, 18:47
Doesn't have be, but it is probably more effective if it is earthed.
Why should a Faraday cage have a ploarity?
Good question Barry
Depending on how a Faraday cage is viewed, ie is the charge to be contained inside the cage disallowing escape , or is the charge outside the cage protecting the interior. The classic view is the latter
but the former is equally poignant.
It would appear IMO there is benefit in a ungrounded cage with no stated polarity, as any charge trying to penetrate or escape as the case may be, will tend to seek a opposite potential to dissipate,
The fixture may then have much added complication, such as concern of adequate grounding related to the charge voltage and current. Also direction taken by any conductor prior to
actual grounding may lead to the faraday cage changing its ideal shape to include the grounding cable prior to actual grounding., thereby lessening its effect.
A everyday example is a coaxial cable used as speaker lead, if the inner conductor is used for connection, then the outer braid when floating is a faraday cage of sorts over
its length
AJSki2fly
29-07-2020, 20:19
Lol oddly enough I do for at least 30 hours a week:mental: my lab is very well shielded.
Here is a very odd but strangely true scenario, earlier this year I was working on a new pre amplifier design and was finishing off its ac line filtration circuit during pre compliance testing. The previous week I had just upgrade the labs mains power circuits and lighting to LED's so feeling pleased with my efforts I set up the equipment for the EC stands required Cisper 16. Now for this you need a isolation transformer for the DUT and the ground plane.
After around 30m minutes of testing I was getting so real spurious readings really struggled to get my head around them. I ended up tearing down the set up and taking to measuring the individual instruments themselves just to try and eliminate the blasted common mode noise.
Turn out to be a rather expensive bench power supply causing a heap of CMN, no here is the strange thing, even with the unit connected via an isolation (which lifts the earth) transformer the noise was still present. So even after switching the unit off at the power switch the noise is still present??? :stalks:
Ok must be me going somewhat mad, so I took out the mains plug from the bench psu guess what STILL there :rolleyes:
Now the scopes and analysers are power by one side of the mains circuit, the other power supplies, iso transformers dc loads and ac power supplies are powered by the other side of the CU.
Now one of the new LED lights is an overhead bench unit for intricate work it has a delightful SMPS though it is one the scope side of the mains, well taking this out of the socket removed all of the noise from the dc power supply even with the unit UNPLUGGED.
This is an example of radiated RF in the real world and the switching frequncy 67Khz you really could not make this up, you do need ot be on your toes when taking low level measurements.
A poxy SMPS caused almost a days worth of testing time loss, project completion time -1 day experience gained invaluable
Interesting, is this not the basis of one of Tesla’s key power transmission experiments, but I might be confusing it with another phenomenon?
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I recently did some reading online on RF fields, my concern being with mobile phone relay masts, of which there are about ten on a block of flats 30 metres from my home.
My concern is with the profusity of equipment generating RF, each adding to the hash, and more specifically the effects of constructive interference. (Addition of peaks in the waveforms). This will inevitably happen because there are so many different frequencies being transmitted,; there are people who line their bedrooms in metal sheeting.
anthonyTD
30-07-2020, 08:57
I have similar experience in my new [relatively] workshop, with All LED lighting, the bloody things are so noisey, the one i have above my bench is paticularly problematic when testing high gain Audio circuits, i have to turn it off, which pretty much negates the whole reason of having a nice bright light over the area your working in! :doh: I usualy have to resort to using a conventional bulb set up in some cases.
Lol oddly enough I do for at least 30 hours a week:mental: my lab is very well shielded.
Here is a very odd but strangely true scenario, earlier this year I was working on a new pre amplifier design and was finishing off its ac line filtration circuit during pre compliance testing. The previous week I had just upgrade the labs mains power circuits and lighting to LED's so feeling pleased with my efforts I set up the equipment for the EC stands required Cisper 16. Now for this you need a isolation transformer for the DUT and the ground plane.
After around 30m minutes of testing I was getting so real spurious readings really struggled to get my head around them. I ended up tearing down the set up and taking to measuring the individual instruments themselves just to try and eliminate the blasted common mode noise.
Turn out to be a rather expensive bench power supply causing a heap of CMN, no here is the strange thing, even with the unit connected via an isolation (which lifts the earth) transformer the noise was still present. So even after switching the unit off at the power switch the noise is still present??? :stalks:
Ok must be me going somewhat mad, so I took out the mains plug from the bench psu guess what STILL there :rolleyes:
Now the scopes and analysers are power by one side of the mains circuit, the other power supplies, iso transformers dc loads and ac power supplies are powered by the other side of the CU.
Now one of the new LED lights is an overhead bench unit for intricate work it has a delightful SMPS though it is one the scope side of the mains, well taking this out of the socket removed all of the noise from the dc power supply even with the unit UNPLUGGED.
This is an example of radiated RF in the real world and the switching frequncy 67Khz you really could not make this up, you do need ot be on your toes when taking low level measurements.
A poxy SMPS caused almost a days worth of testing time loss, project completion time -1 day experience gained invaluable
Anthony
Thinking back I have had a couple of occasions like this, hindsight a wonderful thing!
anthonyTD
30-07-2020, 11:06
Indeed!
Anthony
hindsight a wonderful thing!
willbewill
30-07-2020, 11:15
I recently did some reading online on RF fields, my concern being with mobile phone relay masts, of which there are about ten on a block of flats 30 metres from my home.
My concern is with the profusity of equipment generating RF, each adding to the hash, and more specifically the effects of constructive interference. (Addition of peaks in the waveforms). This will inevitably happen because there are so many different frequencies being transmitted,; there are people who line their bedrooms in metal sheeting.
Best thing to line with is pre-nuclear lead, cuts background radiation as well.
anthonyTD
30-07-2020, 15:52
:eek:
Lead wallpaper rolls?
love survivalists..
here is the "wrong rec room" scene from tremors :eyebrows:
https://youtu.be/KNoyStVjWFE
walpurgis
30-07-2020, 16:04
Lead wallpaper rolls?
Not tried that yet. Got lead toilet paper though. :D
not tried that yet. Got lead toilet paper though. :d
jeez, thats rough
Best thing to line with is pre-nuclear lead, cuts background radiation as well.
What is "pre-nuclear lead"? :scratch:
walpurgis
30-07-2020, 20:42
What is "pre-nuclear lead"? :scratch:
Probably what they screen Gamma Particle detectors with.
But since lead (206Pb and 208Pb) is the end result of the radioactive decay of uranium and other actinides, so "pre-nuclear lead" must be those radioactive elements that have yet to decay into lead.
willbewill
31-07-2020, 08:39
What is "pre-nuclear lead"? :scratch:
Lead that was smelted prior to atomic explosions, in the past it has been used for lining rooms used to undertake whole body monitoring for radition contamination. I knew of one that used lead from a ship sunk prior to nuclear tests etc, hence contaminated.
MikeMusic
03-08-2020, 15:47
Tony brought one around for me to try.
Grounding Box indeed
This will obviously be a waste of time.
I will be polite and indulge him.
Negative expectation bias.
Hang on.
One cable connected to my Rega Isis makes a difference.
A second makes more difference
Add one then another into the Belles Pre
The cumulative difference takes some believing.
One of the biggest upgrades to my system ever.
When Covid is over I can demo
The Coherent RTZ jobbie is different tech to Entreq, which it outperforms and SGS which I believe it also outperforms.
Not all grounding boxes are created equal
How would you describe the differences you hear? Are they just differences or a real improvement? Did you notice a degredation in SQ as you reversed the process to revert to your system as it was originally?
MikeMusic
03-08-2020, 18:25
From the time :
First cable into the Isis CD - RTZ, the less than ideal digital socket Tony said.
Subtle improvement. Difficult to pin down as everything seemed subtly better.
Plugged into an input socket into the Belles Pre.
What an improvement ! Detail, bass, soundstage, mid - everything improved.
Plugged into an output socket of the Belles.
Another big jump up.
The more cable plugged in the more music delivered.
You have to hear it to believe it.
Back ground comes forward without affecting the foreground
SQ drops back to where it was when unplugged.
AJSki2fly
03-08-2020, 18:31
From the time :
First cable into the Isis CD - RTZ, the less than ideal digital socket Tony said.
Subtle improvement. Difficult to pin down as everything seemed subtly better.
Plugged into an input socket into the Belles Pre.
What an improvement ! Detail, bass, soundstage, mid - everything improved.
Plugged into an output socket of the Belles.
Another big jump up.
The more cable plugged in the more music delivered.
You have to hear it to believe it.
Back ground comes forward without affecting the foreground
SQ drops back to where it was when unplugged.
Sound to good to be true to me, or everyone would have done it but now. But being open minded I will try and home demo at some point
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My thoughts as well: the descriptions are too general and the sort of thing everyone says when they have made a change that they perceive to be an improvement.
I would like to hear a description of exactly the improvements in "detail, bass, soundstage, mid".
Would these improvement have come about by simply connecting all the 'earths' together without the 'grounding box'?
It is hard to accept that we are all rather affected by all sorts of simultaneous events, we are not a fixed entity but one subject to numerous dynamic events in out lives, and from which it is hard/impossible to isolate.
We are 'floating points'.
"Would these improvement have come about by simply connecting all the 'earths' together without the 'grounding box'?
Good question Barry
From experience no, the mains PE (earth) has a separate and quite different effect from the ground planes.
Connecting the two separate items from my experience results in a downward step is SQ.
Remember some equipment has a floating earth,
You can also try for your self the naim method, by connecting your audio equipment case work together (do check that you will not cause problems by doing so).
Earth bourne noise is very different in a couple of fundamental ways from that conducted/radiated noise on the ground planes imho
I should have been more specific: by 'earths' I meant signal returns and not the mains safety earths.
There is a risk of course that additional signal return paths could form 'earth loops', but if the additional leads run parallel, and very close, to the signal interconnects, the area of the loop available to be threaded by stray magnetic fields will be minimal.
I cannot try the idea for myself as all my equipment uses balanced line connections, source to speaker.
Hi Barry
So is my system, Mikes systems (fully dual differential balanced) and virtually all of the other systems i deal with that use some form of GB but you have other sockets on your equipment yes?
Yes, all of my gear is fully dual-differential in its topology. The power amplifiers (monoblocks) are located directly behind each speaker and are some 8 metres from the preamps and sources, connected via balanced-line cables which run under the floor. Providing additional parallel groundplane 'earths' would be difficult.
Hi Barry
So just XLR inputs on the amps?
What about the pre and sources? maybe more than one input/output on each?
I have seen one customer who used a well know vampire poo box with a similar set up long balanced runs to the mono's and short speaker cable, he use not one but TWO VP units joined together and connected to the RCA input of the mono's so four (GB's) connected to the mono's and not to a single GB reference point, not surprisingly it did sound much better when the VP boxes were removed. The dealer who sold this chap the VP equipment must have been rather persuasive!
Discopants
13-09-2020, 16:44
Very interesting and well mannered thread guys, please keep at it. I’d like to add my own subjective experiences to this discussion.
I’ve recently had an Akiko audio Castello grounding device in for evaluation on my system. This is a Dutch company and this unit retails for about 1200 euros. It has 3 connectors and you get 3 cables of your connector choice supplied. Its totally sealed the contents are a mystery to me but its solid , might be potted inside. With the grounding unit attached to TDAI 3400, Etherregen (fancy network switch, it works very well in my system, please don’t derail this thread) and the 3rd one I attached to the TV as my options were running out. I thought I detected a slightly more natural/relaxed presentation, possibly an improved tonality on piano higher end. I had it for 5 days then went away for 10 days and a further 7 days after that leaving it attached. Then i took it out and put it back for several cycles and listened to 3 tracks back and forth. Improvements to my ears were very marginal and possibly only imagined. As a value proposition in my system, performance gains <1% vs 8% total system cost.
I wasn’t persuaded to buy one, at this time.
I have a lot of effective tweaks and accessories in this streaming system and I’m already targeting clean power, vibrational energy and rfi/emf control. Its possible I’m hitting whatever these devices address elsewhere closer to source of the problem.
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