View Full Version : Thorens TD125 - The journey continues...
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I must admit to being a little unhappy with the Technics SL-150. The motor itself is excellent in every department (and that's before adding quartz-locking as on the current model), but the structure of this deck is too "live" and it was only the NAS SpaceMat that even began to make it managable for me (the Herbies mat was useless on this deck). Even so, the Supex mistracked badly despite the warm temperatures and, not having the funds or real inclination to change the arm or cartridge, I decided to "give in" and get the Thorens out of its box and run it for a while..
[edit] - to be fair, the SL-150 could be improved with damping pads and some blu-tac between the base of the bearing and the resonant plastic bottom plate, a sorbothane style extra "foot" then being used, I suspect to advantage.
Firstly, according to a 1968 Gramophone review, the TD125 on launch cost more than the TD124 and 150 added together. An interesting fact when the noisier 124 sells for several hundred quid today and the 125 around a ton I believe.
The heavy cast top plate/armboard/bearing assembly sit on three springs, which are positioned slightly differently to the TD150/LP12 positions. The springs seem to be evo-sticked to their grommets which makes suspension sorting all but impossible at present. Levelling the top plate is easy, rotating the nylon cups is all you need to get this done. The suspension is (just) stable on the last mm of movement, but shimmy's all over the place if the top plate is tapped. I shall have to sort this soon, but shall need to rotate the springs or even fit Linn ones, which have been "topped and tailed" flat, unlike the Thorens ones.
I also needed to fine-tune the speed to get the slider-wheel roughly in the middle of its travel for all three speeds, which was easy with the service manual being available online
I had the Rega R200 mounted up on a new plywood armboard (available on fleabay from the US) and fitting it was a doddle. Dressing the arm cable was a different matter. I gave up on my home made one and reverted to an Audio Origami one (same cable and basic plugs as mine). As there was nowhere to fit a Linn style P clip, I improvised with cable ties, one going on the under-plate and the other on the plinth (the cable makes no difference to the suspension behaviour). I also made sure the under-plate and top plate were earthed together and then to the arm and out via the earth wire to the preamp, which is earthed to the mains.
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Here she is, all set and ready to go-
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"And what does it sound like?" - Actually, rather good. The bass is as clean as a whistle with no obvious colouration LP12 style at all, the mid is delightfully "textured" in a gentle, unassuming kind of way, and the treble is clear, with perfect tracking. The perceived soundstage is wide and deep too (as much as the arm/cartridge will allow) and I have a good feeling that the deck itself would love a Jelco 750 or SME 309 - I think the basic quality of the deck will allow this with ease.
Finally, with a new Thorens belt and a hearty shove to the platter to aid starting (no clutch on the mk1), there is absolutely NO pitch instability or wavering AT ALL. The motor supply isn't servo'd as I can see, so slowing the platter by hand just results in the platter quickly returning to speed with no fuss at all with no over-shoot.
To sum up. I'm sort of on home territory with the TD125mk1. It sounds great, costs little to buy still and trounces most middle ground decks out there. The sound is gentle and civilised, making for lengthy music sessions which although not being the most dramatic out there, are certainly satisfying and "musical" to my ears. All the "tune-dem" rules are passed with ease I found.
Nice one, Dave - you might've dusted the arm board first though before taking the pic! ;)
I have a soft spot for the TD-125, as I had lots of fun using one (with an SME 3009) before I 'upgraded' to an LP12/Valhalla/Akito :doh:
The TD-125 was, in my opinion, the far better turntable, with a more stable and 'focussed' sound, as well has having all the 'tune-playing' abilities of the ol' fruitbox.
Still, it was a valuable learning curve.... Enjoy the Thorens - it's a quality T/T. What's the cartridge - an Ortofon MC30 or summat?
Marco.
P.S. The mk2 TD125 had an apparently improved power supply/control board, but the main bearing was fixed to the top plate rather than being removable as mine is. I remember the mk2 decks I set up having wobble/free-play in the main bearing too and it would be interesting to hear if anyone out there has a pet fine-engineering shop who could carefully re-bush the bearing sleeves if necessary as can be done with the Garrards. (Perhaps Schopper in Germany can do this, but they are mainly TD124 people I think).
Comparing a TD125mk2/SME Grace F9E with a 1970's LP12/SME/Grace F9E shows the LP12 to be slightly clearer, the TD125 sounding a bit vague by comparison. Since I've heard what a good main bearing does for other turntables, I'd point the accusing finger there on the mk2 and feel assured that a sorted 125 should equal or out-perform most LP12 varients except the Cirkussed, Geddon/Lingo 2 models upwards.
Stratmangler
10-07-2010, 15:18
Is that a big rubber band around the periphery of the platter, Dave ?
Where can you get them without paying the rediculous amount of dosh SRM Tech ask for them ?
Hi Chris,
I've got one you can have for nowt (identical to Dave's), left over from my experimental days with LP12s, and such like, if you PM me your addy :)
Marco.
Nice one, Dave - you might've dusted the arm board first though before taking the pic! ;)
I have a soft spot for the TD-125, as I had lots of fun using one (with an SME 3009) before I 'upgraded' to an LP12/Valhalla/Akito :doh:
The TD-125 was, in my opinion, the far better turntable, with a more stable and 'focussed' sound, as well has having all the 'tune-playing' abilities of the ol' fruitbox.
Still, it was a valuable learning curve.... Enjoy the Thorens - it's a quality T/T.
Marco.
Glad you think so sir :)
You know the dust makes it sound better don't you? :D
I'm not knocking the LP12 at all, as the Keel and Rubykon give the thing a 125 style cast aluminium sub chassis, the Sondek bearing is good now and is serviceable/replaceable and they finally got the plinth sorted in the last fifteen years or so. I suspect a re-visit to a current LP12 would be an enjoyable one, until you looked at the hefty and IMO un-realistic prices now asked.
Stratmangler
10-07-2010, 15:25
Hi Chris,
I've got one you can have for nowt (identical to Dave's), left over from my experimental days with LP12s, and such like, if you PM me your addy :)
Marco.
Thank you very kindly, Marco.
Very much appreciated.
Is that a big rubber band around the periphery of the platter, Dave ?
Where can you get them without paying the rediculous amount of dosh SRM Tech ask for them ?
Umm, SRM-Tech.............. :o
Stratmangler
10-07-2010, 15:35
The reasons I want to give the big rubber band thing a go are twofold.
First, I want to see if further dampening of the platter improves things any - I have already dampened the sub platter, and this was quite an improvement.
Second, the platter is a cast alloy, and the edge looks great just after being polished with Autosol. Unfortunately the effect doesn't take very long to look awful, and I get fed up with taking the main platter off to polish it - put it down to laziness on my part.
Dave,
I'm not knocking the LP12 at all, as the Keel and Rubykon give the thing a 125 style cast aluminium sub chassis, the Sondek bearing is good now and is serviceable/replaceable and they finally got the plinth sorted in the last fifteen years or so.
I completely agree. My earlier remarks were in reference to earlier LP12s without the benefits of such upgrades.
I suspect a re-visit to a current LP12 would be an enjoyable one, until you looked at the hefty and IMO un-realistic prices now asked.
Well, in that respect, I'm looking forward to hearing Andew (flatpopely's) Rubikon-modified LP12 at the end of this month. I'll be taking my Techie down, as part of the bake-off advertised here and on pfm - although I'll be there a day earlier than the rest ;)
The Techie (fitted with the SPU and Paul Hynes PSU), using the A23 (SPU) will be 'needle-dropped' by Andrew, and the results posted here and on pfm for people's perusal - so that should be interesting :)
Marco.
Rare Bird
10-07-2010, 16:24
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q8/DSJR_photos/DSCF1423.jpg
Nice Dave i lived with a 'TD125' for yonks..Eventually changed it for a 'TD126'
Re: '125', I always wanted an 'EMT 928' but couldnt find one never mind afford one..they are probably the rarest EMT..
That "rubber band" doesn't seem to do much for the platter when held and "rung." Placing it on the inner takes 80% away and the mat deals with most of the rest. Although mine isn't polished, it's faded and as I intend to help get the thing up to speed when starting in the hope it will prolong the belt a little, the band is as much visual as anything.
The band is glued up as well, although I've seen equivalent machinery drive bands costing around the same..
Rare Bird
10-07-2010, 16:31
Those outer belt are great for coverinng up the platter cos they are a real pain in the arse to keep clean..Best touch was the 'TD-147' Jublee platter all black
Andr'e and Marco - How was the suspension on your samples and were the springs easily removed on yours?
The grommets are very soft it seems and as the springs haven't been "flatted" top and bottom, any attempt to remove them will upset the grommets and cause the springs not to sit right (been there and tried it in the past). The whole top grommet will have to be rotated if that's possible (the locking washers will have to be removed so the top can be lifted off).
Do either of you remember the optional alternative rubber inserts that could be used instead of the springs? Not having the suspension may not be good, but it's on a solid support and the thing may be more stable with less influence on the belt drive...
How different was the EMT version I wonder?
Rare Bird
10-07-2010, 16:46
I dunno Dave i didnt piss about with things back then.
PM Re EMT
Nice Dave i lived with a 'TD125' for yonks..Eventually changed it for a 'TD126'
Re: '125', I always wanted an 'EMT 928' but couldnt find one never mind afford one..they are probably the rarest EMT..
And the least successful of the EMT designs.
Regards
The link PM'd by Andr'e discusses the 125 and EMT. Apparently, the soft rubber belt wasn't really up to hard professional use (fair enough) but as a performer, the 928 was excellent by all accounts and way ahead of the pack in sonic stakes of the times. the 928's rareity now adds to its value..
P.S. just returned to the mk1 (124mk2) ribbed mat and I think it suits me better, even though there's a touch more coming through when the record is tapped. I still think this deck is incredibly neutral, small changes to tracking weight of the Ortofon and also bias changes (mine still works) clearly audible.
P.P.S. I'm still using the Lentek head amp.... :scratch:
P.P.S. I'm still using the Lentek head amp....
How are you finding it, Dave, after now having lived with it a while? :)
Marco.
I don't really notice it, to be honest, so it can't be severely getting in the way..
I have the box all ready for a pair of Sowters to be fitted and am trying very hard not to use our reserve credit card to get them. The AT630 is a great starter transformer but lacks a bit of control I find. The Sowters I've looked at can have the cartridge loading adjusted by soldering resistors across the secondary outputs (I assume on the back of the phono sockets). They're an Ipswich company too ;)
I don't really notice it, to be honest, so it can't be severely getting in the way..
Nice one. So would you say that the Lentek is rather better than you remember it was when you first used it working in the hi-fi industry? :)
Marco.
P.S I noticed a thread you replied to earlier where you were talking about the SPU and 103 (and loading it at 400 Ohms), but I'm buggered if I can remember where it was! :scratch: Any ideas? A link would be good :cool:
Here it is -
http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=136521#post136521
That Lentek does have a sound I remember, but it doesn't get in the way. My whole system is sounding far better sounding than it was 30 years ago as well, but then it's in a slightly larger room so it can breathe and I have a wonderful CD player (when it works) as a reference :) :cool:
Cheers, Dave. I'll reply to that later, once I've digested my vino-infused Sunday lunch.... Hic! :cheers:
That Lentek does have a sound I remember, but it doesn't get in the way.
Nice one. I trust you'd agree that it's a fine little device for the price, and rather handy to have around :)
With a DL-103 it's, quite franky, amazing for the money (approx £60). Those who cant afford £500 for an A23 SUT to use with their 103s should be forming a queue towards Ebay to buy a Lentek active MC head amp!!
Marco.
I wouldn't disagree ;)
The Sowters should be less than £150 with OCC wiring but will have to wait a couple more weeks. The DIY bug is nibbling and if I can find casework ready made I feel like I'd like to try something, possibly a DIY DAC... Suggestions anyone?
I bought the Lentek along with the Entré EC- 1 cartridge in the late seventies or early eighties. It sounds just OK to me because it is not in the same league as my other head amps, for instance, the Trio/Kenwood KHA50 or the Denon AU340 transformer.
I actually prefer using a dedicated MC phono stage for the 103 after all, a more direct approach, without the fuss of the additional cables and contacts. We have a different opinion for that "religious" issue, don’t we?
Hi King,
Yep, for sure, whatever works for you, works for you :)
With moving coil cartridges I prefer a high-quality SUT (or head amp) into the valve MM stage of my Croft, as I find the results are more musical sounding. For me, it's not about cables and contacts; it's about which method, overall, most maximises the sonic performance of the cartridge, and with the 103 (and now SPU) I've always preferred the results with SUTs, regardless of the effect of extra cables and contacts.
The Lentek isn't the best head amp in the world, by any means. However at £60 from Ebay, it offers excellent SPPV, particularly as there aren't many affordable head amps around today to choose from.
And if you've got a DL-103 (and a nice valve MM stage), the Lentek (with a Duracell battery - yes, battery type affects how it sounds) is excellent, if you can't afford £500 for an A23 SUT. I must stress it's in that particular application with a DL-103 where the Lentek really shines :cool:
With other set-ups and cartridges the results will be different, although Dave seems to be enjoying his without a DL-103. You never know, you might be surprised if you revisited it (with a DL-103) one day!
Marco.
Hi Marco,
I have used my croft and different transformers with the 103 before, though good, still not my cup of cha. :)
Well it's what your ears hear that is most important at the end of the day :)
What I've found though is that it's a matter of finding the right transformer, rather than just any transformer.... And by "right" I mean not only in terms of the relevant electrical parameters, but crucially, how the transformer voices the cartridge in terms of its sonic signature.
Getting that bit right, so that the inherent sonic characteristics of the cartridge are maximised and faithfully reproduced, is the hard bit! In that respect, finding the right SUT for a given MC cartridge (particularly when the manufacturer doesn't make a specifically matched one for the job) is a bit of a lottery!
Keith Aschenbrenner, who designed the A23, apparently spent YEARS listening to 100s of different transformers, before finding the ones he considered were optimal for the DL-103 and SPU. For me his choice of transformers is superb, because the A23, IMO, voices the 103 (and SPU) in a uniquely musically beguilling way which I've yet to hear from ANY active MC stage.
But, hey, it would be a boring world if we all agreed on everything! :eyebrows:
Marco.
I think my Denon AU-340 transformer is a perfect match for the 103 series of cartridges. I can tell you that is it has the same musically beguilling quality in some ways or others as your A23 but my conclusion is "less is better". :lol:
Lol - that's cool. But have you heard an A23 and done a direct A/B comparison with the AU-340? :)
I sold my Denon HA-500 MC head amp (an excellent device), which was also "a perfect match for the 103 series of cartridges" because I felt the A23 was better still ;)
Marco.
Rare Bird
12-07-2010, 11:06
Hi Marco,
I have used my croft and different transformers with the 103 before, though good, still not my cup of cha. :)
Gimmi a 'DL160' any day :)
:sofa:
Lol - that's cool. But have you heard an A23 and done a direct A/B comparison with the AU-340? :)
I sold my Denon HA-500 (an excellent device), which was also "a perfect match for the 103 series of cartridges" because I felt the A23 was better ;)
Marco.
Unfortunately, I have not yet heard the A23. But I sense that it must be very good indeed, as you keep reminding us it is the best.;)
Lol! It's "the best" only in my opinion, and only with a DL-103 or SPU :)
Andre, I also rate the DL-160, but I doubt you've heard a 103 in the right arm/headshell, and with a good SUT, to have arrived at a really informed conclusion, dude ;)
Marco.
Back in the day, the 110 and 160 were regarded as good high-ouput mc's, but nothing that special. Made a change from K9's which we were obliged to sell by the million though.. ;)
chris@panteg
13-07-2010, 10:04
I have used a K9 and the 160 ' and well , much prefer the 160 it does need a bit more gain than most MM phono stages offer though (typically 40 db).
The downside of HOMC's as has been explained to me ,being the larger magnet which increases mass and can restrict dynamics .
Yep, if you're gonna use an MC cartridge, then use a low-output one, as high-output versions are a significant sonic compromise, otherwise just use a good quality MM (such as one of the current, and superb, Nagaokas) or a Decca, and be done with it! :)
Marco.
I used to own a TD-125 MKII with an SME3009 and an Audio Technica AT115E cartridge. I used a Graham Slee Gram Amp and a homemade IC headphone amplifier, which I was constantly modifying.
Excellent turntable and I really do miss it and my vinyl.
Cheers,
Hi Ian,
Welcome to AOS - where are you from? :)
Marco.
I used to own a TD-125 MKII with an SME3009 and an Audio Technica AT115E cartridge. I used a Graham Slee Gram Amp and a homemade IC headphone amplifier, which I was constantly modifying.
Excellent turntable and I really do miss it and my vinyl.
Cheers,
Ian
The MK2 125 didn't always have such a good main bearing and it was more-or-less fixed to the top plate as I remember. This could give a slight vagueness to the reproduced sound when compared to an early LP12 (both had SME's and Grace F9 pickups as I recall).
I tackled the suspension on mine today and now have an almost perfect piston-like bounce which can now be done while playing a record, unlike before. It sounds really good IMO.
I'm going to stick my head on the block (again) and say that I really think the TD125 is an absolute steal right now. At this time of year, they're selling for well under £200 with arm (unless it's a SME) and around a ton without arm IIRC. Good new boards can be got from the US in black painted ply or solid walnut or cherry (my SME cut board looks to be an MDF type, but I don't know if it's an original). All you need to do is set the suspension right, keep the main bearing well oiled (EP90 for the mk2's and EP80 for the mk1's as used by Thorens IMO) and keep the belt changed regularly to keep the pitch integrity good and you'll have a truly great turntable that may just see off all but the best plinthed TD124's for sound quality - perhaps.. :)
Hi Ian,
Welcome to AOS - where are you from? :)
Marco.
Hi Marco,
I live in Stoke-on-Trent. I'm thinking about getting a vinyl collection together again. I find my ipod very tedious to listen to and the music is over compressed. The only advantage is in its diminutive size.
I see that Graham Slee has introduced lots of new phono stages and headphone amps. I'm looking forward to getting a turntable again and all I know, at the moment, is that it will be a Thorens.
Cheers,
Thanks for that, Ian. You're not so far away :)
I'm thinking about getting a vinyl collection together again. I find my ipod very tedious to listen to and the music is over compressed. The only advantage is in its diminutive size.
I couldn't agree more. I think you'll fit in here nicely - enjoy! :cool:
Marco.
chris@panteg
21-07-2010, 18:51
Hi Ian
Vinyl is the way to go and a good Thorens is an excellent choice , which model are you going for ?
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