PMC speakers

[Covenant]

Always thought these speakers were about as good as you could get. That is until I read this review:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/pmc-twenty-21-bookshelf-speaker-review.14442/

Ok, I know measurements are not everything but there are some subjective comments in the review as well.:(

[southall-1998_mk2]

I enjoyed reading that. It made me feel good actually.

S.

[prestonchipfryer]

:rolleyes:

[AJSki2fly]

I actually auditioned a pair of these in a HiFi dealer about 4-5 years ago and I thought they sounded odd, and just did not like them, the measurements shown and comments explain why, an interesting read.

[The Alchemist]

That made very interesting reading! I have listened to PMC speakers many times at the Bristol show and have always thought that the IPL's were much better. It would be very interesting to find out what Amir makes of Ivan's creations but since I doubt whether there are any available for testing in Seattle it's not going to happen anytime soon!

[mikeyb]

I used to own a pair and they sounded excellent, I read the review, he's saying they're terrible, sorry but he's talking sh***

The Scottish Mafia heard my ones and so did Colin Wonfor at the time and they all agreed they were excellent.

That Audiosciencereview website takes some stick for his measurements etc, now I know why [emoji23]

You've got to wonder why all these reviewers gave the awards [emoji14][emoji23]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200630/294e022720b0be15c526dae7520788c2.jpg

[Macca]

They did measure terribly there's no getting around that, the measurements don't have any bias, unlike a subjective review.

Lots of speakers measure badly though and some people still love them, there's always going to be some outliers in a market of millions of people.

I've had a listen to some of the floorstanders from the domestic range, which I didn't rate at all, and the domestic version of one of the professional monitors (the only difference is there's veneer finish on the domestic version) and they were superb.

[fatmarley]

I know I've mentioned this once or twice before, but at Scalford one year there were some large, multiple driver, open-baffle speakers that were designed purely by ear (no measurements). I sat down for a listen and thought - Wow! they sound amazing! - and I honestly started to question why I'd bothered to learn loudspeaker / crossover design. To think someone could produce something this good, only using their ears was a big shock that went against everything I'd learned. Luckily for me, before I left, someone in the room pulled out a CD and asked him to play it. I was shocked at how bad they sounded. It was If was listening to a completely different system. After the show, a lot of people said they were best thing they'd heard that day. I only saw one CD in the room, so they probably heard the same Fun Loving Criminals track that I heard.

So what's this got to do with PMC? Well, It's highly unlikely that the speakers at Scalford would measure anywhere near as good as PMC, so the PMC should play a larger selection of music without any problems, but because the frequency response is wonky there will be some music that will not sound as good as it should, and highly likely some that will sound awful. This sort of thing usually ends up being blamed on bad recordings.

[Macca]

Spot on there Matt.

[fatmarley]

Spot on there Matt.

Cheers Martin (wish this forum had a like button).

[Pharos]

I thought the review very refreshing, with many good responses by contributors.

I think that, from what I have been reading over the last few days, many, from amateurs through varying degrees of professionalism, are now challenging what is being produced, and with great incisiveness, and this IMO is what speaker design needs.

I am now sure that it is possible to hear a new speaker which may have a weird response, and be subconsciously overwhelmed by it, and, with time, to also adjust to a non neutral response, and then after habituation to it think it is correct.

Hats off to the Revel designer for his Spinorama measurement technique which seems to me to be a real breakthrough.

[Covenant]

Got to agree with Denis, the design of all speakers needs to be challenged. In the case of this particular PMC speaker, I wonder if the transmission line is doing anything as it is so confined and filled with sound insulation material.

[Macca]

If you look at the in room response you're basically getting raised bass and raised top end. Similar to the loudness button on old amplifiers. So if you like to listen at low levels it will boost up the frequencies where hearing is least sensitive and will probably sound quite balanced. I notice a lot of people have listening at low levels as a priority so might explain the popularity of this speaker brand. It's always horses for courses in this game.

https://i.ibb.co/7GTDfGd/PMC-Twenty-21-stand-mount-bookshelf-speaker-Spinorama-CEA-2034-Predicted-In-room-frequency-res.png (https://ibb.co/rZLhjZR)

[Pharos]

I'm reminded of the claim "IT sounds the same at low levels as at high levels", which I have come across several times.

Given the nature of the Fletcher-Munson curves, this should not be the case.

[Beobloke]

Amir's measurements are very good. Unfortunately his interpretations of them leaves a bit to be desired in several areas.

It also appears that he only performs a subjective listening test after making the measurements, which leaves him open to high levels of expectation bias.

[Macca]

He used to just give the measurements but then some people who don't really get it complained that 'He doesn't even listen!' So he started adding his subjective listening experience and gets criticised for that too. Talk about damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Pharos]

It would make sense to me for him to listen first, and then to test, because he can be rigorous in ensuring that he executes the test properly, so no psychological biasing can intrude on the results, and he can then reflect on his personal assessment and see to what extent his impression was right.

[Opti-cal]

It would make sense to me for him to listen first, and then to test, because he can be rigorous in ensuring that he executes the test properly, so no psychological biasing can intrude on the results, and he can then reflect on his personal assessment and see to what extent his impression was right.

Absolutely right, it would make sense. There is no way (and little point) to listen subjectively or critically after someone, whom places so much importance on measurements, is aware of them.

[Martyn Miles]

A friend burned the voice coils on his DB-1 speakers.
PMC wanted an incredible amount of money for replacement drive units.

They weren’t interested in helping with getting new voice coils fitted.

[Beobloke]

A friend burned the voice coils on his DB-1 speakers.
PMC wanted an incredible amount of money for replacement drive units.

They weren’t interested in helping with getting new voice coils fitted.

I'm not sure what point you're making here? I can think of no loudspeaker manufacturer who would sell you voice coils on their own and to do so would be pointless anyway, as no user at home has the necessary jigs and production aids to fit them properly, unless they once worked for the drive unit manufacturer and nicked a set from the production line!

[Lawrence001]

I'm not sure what point you're making here? I can think of no loudspeaker manufacturer who would sell you voice coils on their own and to do so would be pointless anyway, as no user at home has the necessary jigs and production aids to fit them properly, unless they once worked for the drive unit manufacturer and nicked a set from the production line!True if they were that helpful to the DIY community they should probably just shut down loudspeaker production and sell drive units to Wilmslow Audio [emoji38]

Sent from my HRY-LX1 using Tapatalk

[Colin Wonfor]

I'm not sure what point you're making here? I can think of no loudspeaker manufacturer who would sell you voice coils on their own and to do so would be pointless anyway, as no user at home has the necessary jigs and production aids to fit them properly, unless they once worked for the drive unit manufacturer and nicked a set from the production line!

Rourke did in the past when Brian was alive as I killed my test Sabre many times and he came to the rescue, I miss Uncle Brian and the great service he did.

[Macca]

I see the ATC SCM19 has also failed to measure well https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/atc-scm19-bookshelf-speaker-review.14519/

Another pro company that also does a 'hi-fi' line, trading on the name?

The only ATC I ever got a listen to were the active SCM100 ASL, they were superb.

[scotty38]

Brilliant. PMCs are shite, ATCs are shite. I've seen a few comments that would lead me to believe they think Harbeths are shite. I can probably guarantee they'd think my Audio Notes are shite.

I'm just glad it's my ears that are shite otherwise I wouldn't be able to find any speakers with which to enjoy my music....

[Macca]

Brilliant. PMCs are shite, ATCs are shite. I've seen a few comments that would lead me to believe they think Harbeths are shite. I can probably guarantee they'd think my Audio Notes are shite.

I'm just glad it's my ears that are shite otherwise I wouldn't be able to find any speakers with which to enjoy my music....

Of all the speakers they have measured so far there's only a handful that didn't have at least some serious issues. I've owned enough speakers over the years that that doesn't come as any surprise to me. Getting a speaker absolutely 'right' isn't easy, or cheap to do. They are always going to be the biggest compromise in any system. The trick is to pick a compromise you can live with.

[Barry]

Of all the speakers they have measured so far there's only a handful that didn't have at least some serious issues. I've owned enough speakers over the years that that doesn't come as any surprise to me. Getting a speaker absolutely 'right' isn't easy, or cheap to do. They are always going to be the biggest compromise in any system. The trick is to pick a compromise you can live with.

Spot on Martin!

[prestonchipfryer]

Ears are the only way to decide. Not some squiggly lines. 😊

[walpurgis]

A glance is usually enough for me. If I see more than two drive units in speakers, I know I'm unlikely to want to listen to them.

[Macca]

A glance is usually enough for me. If I see more than two drive units in speakers, I know I'm unlikely to want to listen to them.

Odd that. I'm the opposite, won't bother with a two way speaker at all unless it using some sort of compression driver like Tannoy or JBL.

[Pigmy Pony]

I see the ATC SCM19 has also failed to measure well https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/atc-scm19-bookshelf-speaker-review.14519/

Another pro company that also does a 'hi-fi' line, trading on the name?

The only ATC I ever got a listen to were the active SCM100 ASL, they were superb.

Heard some big ATCs at Cranage last year, in "Chasing The Dragon" room. Don't know what model, they actually made classical music enjoyable for me. I could live with that sound no problem :) But really it comes down to how they'd work in my little bungalow, regardless of how they measure.

[Jules_S]

If I may, I would offer that generalisations about a brand based on the reported performance of one model, are a bit unwise. I freely confess I've not heard this particular model, but I have heard other larger ones in the range. While I personally didn't care for them as much as the earlier models (the FB1s, DB1s, etc which I did particularly like) I certainly wouldn't have called them catastrophic failures.

I would agree that it's right to call out a problem when it's discovered - there are too many reviews that beat around the bush somewhat. But care should be taken not to generalise or stereotype about an entire company's output, without using your own judgment. Use the facts and figures, measurements and charts wisely, but be led by what you hear and judge for yourself.

[high.spirits]

If I may, I would offer that generalisations about a brand based on the reported performance of one model, are a bit unwise. I freely confess I've not heard this particular model, but I have heard other larger ones in the range. While I personally didn't care for them as much as the earlier models (the FB1s, DB1s, etc which I did particularly like) I certainly wouldn't have called them catastrophic failures.

I would agree that it's right to call out a problem when it's discovered - there are too many reviews that beat around the bush somewhat. But care should be taken not to generalise or stereotype about an entire company's output, without using your own judgment. Use the facts and figures, measurements and charts wisely, but be led by what you hear and judge for yourself.

A very good point.