Hello

[Flyfisher]

I am a music lover and I like my music delivered through valves & vinyl, and I am sort of in the SW.

Now will you answer my question about The Head TX4 SUT...please;)

[Spectral Morn]

Hi Roger

Welcome to AOS (though you have been a member for awhile)

Can you give us more details as to what system you currently own. Your three past posts were only items for sale.

What kind of music do you like ?

Barry Hunt is the best man to give you technical guidance. All I do with the Head is hook a cart up and if it sounds wrong try another one. Though truth be told my Head sits under a chest of drawers most of the time now days as I have a BAT VK10se phono stage and it sounds great with out the use of the Head (I have tried that combination)

Regards D S D L

[Barry]

Hi Roger

Welcome to AOS (though you have been a member for awhile)

Can you give us more details as to what system you currently own. Your three past posts were only items for sale.

What kind of music do you like ?

Barry Hunt is the best man to give you technical guidance. All I do with the Head is hook a cart up and if it sounds wrong try another one. Though truth be told my Head sits under a chest of drawers most of the time now days as I have a BAT VK10se phono stage and it sounds great with out the use of the Head (I have tried that combination)

Regards D S D L

Forsooth Neil,

Methinks thou dost accord me with too much of the knowledge-extraordinary!

Actually Roger, you really have got the 'cart before the horse' (that's being polite!) here.

The impedance settings on Tim de Paravicini's 'The Head' (aka the TX4 transformer), look as though they follow the Japanese convention of referring to the cartridge's coil resistance, rather than the load impedance presented to the cartridge. As such, your SUT ought to be able to encompass anything from Koetsu, Linn and Ortofon SPUs (all having a coil resistance ~4 Ohm) to the Denon DL103 (having a coil resistance of 40 Ohm).

It is impossible to advise you regarding a suitable cartridge without knowing a little more. What is the rest of your system, what are your tastes in music - and how much do you want to spend on a cartridge?

Both the Denon DL103, the Audio Technica AT33P are popular cartridges with members here.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

Regards

PS By the way Roger, welcome to AoS .

[Flyfisher]

Barry

I am not quite as green as cabbage looking!

I have just bought an SP10 when is being serviced. I have already have a large Iroko plinth that will take 2 arms and I have an Art Audio Vinyl One phono stage with both a MM + MC inputs.

The MC input worked really well with my DV T K Rua cartridge at the time, when I had an LP12/ARO set up, and was fine with AT33PTG too.

Now I have an internal Kondo wired Alphason Xenon with an AT33PTG, which is a really good set up for the money, and I recently bought a 12" Jelco off another forum.

I am considering a cartridge like a Lyra Delos which will be fine into the V1 mc input, and so I was looking for a flexible SUT so I could play with other carts into the MM input.

When I came accross the The Head TX4 on German ebay, I fell for it.

I am not techy so I was trying to get my head around the three setting on the TX4 and from Vinyl Engine cartridge database find out some of the best fit carts with this SUT.

I know the Denon 103/103R would use the 40ohm taps.

I buy a lot of 2nd hand vinyl and despite having a record cleaning machine sometimes get records that are not in that great and I don't want to mess up a good cartridge on these records.

Thanks
Roger

[Barry]

Hello Roger,

Just to say, that no rudeness or sarcasm was intended: I was just following up your recent posts here:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6462&page=10 (post 91)

and on ‘pinkfishmedia’:

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1107718 ,

the latter, which incidentally, was answered in a similar manner by ‘hi-fi dave’.

You clearly have an excellent turntable and arm(s), so to answer your query concerning the Lyra Delos cartridge: this has a coil resistance of 8.2Ω, so either of the ‘4’ or ‘15’ settings on ‘The Head’ SUT ought to be suitable.

http://www.lyraconnoisseur.com/Products/Products_Analog/Delos/Delos4.html

There are no hard and fast rules here; the use of SUTs is a bit of a grey area, so try both settings and see which you prefer. In general moving coil cartridges like to be loaded with at least 10x their coil resistance.


Yes probably, but I could not resist it.

Now will you answer the question please


Now will you answer my question about The Head TX4 SUT...please

In future, if you could be a little less demanding, then these ‘misunderstandings’ might not occur.

Regards

[Marco]

Hi Barry,


In future, if you could be a little less demanding, then these ‘misunderstandings’ might not occur.


Actually, Roger wasn't being demanding; rather he was being accommodating.

The remark you're referring to was a follow on from this thread:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?p=135294#post135294

Observe my post #92 and the request contained therein (and Roger's one previous to it) ;)

Marco.

[Barry]

Understood.

[Marco]

No problem :)

Marco.

P.S The A23 SUT for the SPU has arrived. You wanna hear the SPU now!! :eek:

[Flyfisher]

Marco

By the way how much are the A23 SUTs, I have seen the web site but no price list.

How would you compare an AT33PTG with a DL 103 pro as these are both japanese cartridges going back in time?

Regards

Roger

[DSJR]

Don't get too hung up on spending thousands on a cartridge, 'cos all they're going to be doing is trying to get the most out of an often (bass) compromised bit of plastic which is several generations away from the lacquer which was cut.

Following on from the above paragraph, I'd personally say that the best 103's and AT33 series are two sides of the coin. The AT majors on treble purity and definition (if it's there) and the 103 (alright Marco, the SPU as well when properly set up) I feel, majors on bass power and "slam" - if it hasn't been filtered out at the cutting stage.

My only concern regarding very expensive cartridges is that there really isn't much more you can get off the record these days and the pricing reflects an attempt to make more money from wealthy enthusiasts by using gem stones for the body, silver wires (what wire was used in the cutting head?) and other exotic materials..

Just enjoy your "Head," and try various settings to see what suits you and your stereo without getting manic about it :)

I mean, Marco has suggested to me that he felt that with his 103SA, a high input impedance of 400 Ohms (what the 103 is supposed to need) made it sound brighter and I understand he didn't care for it as much. My "take" is that 400 Ohms may well be the most neutral balance, and using a lower setting actually rolls the treble region off a tad, which was found preferable.

The Zenon *should* be able to take a Decca, as the 100S does so beautifully. With a *modern* Decca in a suitable arm, you'll have drama right across the frequency range that ordinary cartridges haven't a clue about, you won't need a step-up - but you will need a phono stage with huge headroom - and when playing records you'll have such a silly smug grin on your face and pity the poor misguided saps who still rave about 103's and SPU's....... :lol:

[Flyfisher]

A Decca London cartridge may be a good call.

[Marco]

Hi Roger,


By the way how much are the A23 SUTs, I have seen the web site but no price list.


£495, from James at The Sound Practice :)


How would you compare an AT33PTG with a DL 103 pro as these are both japanese cartridges going back in time?


Both are excellent cartridges in their own right. The 103 Pro is significantly better than the stock 103, due to its superior high-frequency response, but still suffers from the effects of its rather resonant plastic body-shell.

Therefore, to get the best from it, you have to 'nude' it and remove the body-shell and/or replace the shell with something of better quality. However, my advice if you want a 'fancy' 103 is to either buy an 'SA' or the ZU-modified version, as IMO those are the best sounding 103s on the market.

The AT33PTG and (any) 103 are quite different in terms of the way that, in general, AT and Denon MC cartridges are voiced by their respective manufacturers.

ATs have a 'lighter' overall balance, majoring on treble purity, fine detail retrieval and midrange clarity, whereas Denons tend to sound more 'full-bodied' with better bass weight (but not in an exaggerated sense) and have a very communicative 'valve-like' midrange, losing out slightly to the ATs at the top-end in terms of their treble purity, but lacking their at times 'brightly-lit' nature (in the case of the OC-9), which can prove a problem with badly recorded material in some systems, although they can also add sparkle to 'dull cuts' on vinyl.

The AT33PTG, however, is one of the few AT cartridges I could live with, because although it doesn't quite have the bass 'slam' of the 103, it has considerably more low-end heft than any other AT cartridge I've heard to date, which has the effect of adding body and texture to the midrange and ensuring that the top-end doesn't draw attention to itself due to it being rather 'exposed' as a result of a lack of low frequency extension, in the case of the OC-9.

Therefore, the AT33PTG (unfortunately I believe now discontinued) is/was the ideal halfway house between the respective sonic attributes of the OC-9 and the DL-103.

As for Deccas, they're a different ball-game altogether! Set-up though with these is critical, as is having the right tonearm, but get it right and the results are stunning, or so I believe, as I've yet to hear one in my system. That situation, however, will shortly be rectified when Barry loans me his London Gold, which I'm very much looking forward to listening to! :cool:

Marco.

[Marco]

Hi Dave,


Don't get too hung up on spending thousands on a cartridge, 'cos all they're going to be doing is trying to get the most out of an often (bass) compromised bit of plastic which is several generations away from the lacquer which was cut.


Indeed. Neither is there much point when the vinyl concerned has been cut from a digital master, so all you're doing is reproducing that information by adding more distortion!

Vinyl does come into its own though, sonically, when recordings have been made from an analogue master and most of the recording chain is analogue-based.


Following on from the above paragraph, I'd personally say that the best 103's and AT33 series are two sides of the coin. The AT majors on treble purity and definition (if it's there) and the 103 (alright Marco, the SPU as well when properly set up) I feel, majors on bass power and "slam" - if it hasn't been filtered out at the cutting stage.


Yup, I'd go with that, but there are other differences too, as I outlined in my previous post.


My only concern regarding very expensive cartridges is that there really isn't much more you can get off the record these days and the pricing reflects an attempt to make more money from wealthy enthusiasts by using gem stones for the body, silver wires (what wire was used in the cutting head?) and other exotic materials..


I mostly agree. There are some genuinely superb hi-end cartridges out there, which get you closer to 'the truth', but by and large most flatter to decieve, where one can achieve the same performance (or indeed sometimes better) from a cartridge with a less 'desirable badge', and in turn less exorbitant price tag.

However, I disagree with your "what wire was used in the cutting head?" remark. It's not about replicating the ancillaries used in the recording studio; it's about faithfully replicating their sonic effect on music reproduced. Therefore whatever wires, silver or otherwise, best achieve that, in conjunction with the overall sonic accuracy of the cartridge, in a system, is by definition the 'best wire'. *That* is what hi-fi is about.


I mean, Marco has suggested to me that he felt that with his 103SA, a high input impedance of 400 Ohms (what the 103 is supposed to need) made it sound brighter and I understand he didn't care for it as much. My "take" is that 400 Ohms may well be the most neutral balance, and using a lower setting actually rolls the treble region off a tad, which was found preferable.


You're entitled to your opinion, Dave, and I understand where you're coming from, but from considerable experience of using 103s in a multitude of set-ups, I totally disagree.

The fact is, both Denon's own SUTs (designed to partner the 103) and the A23, load it at 100 Ohms (or just over), so if that
wasn't the optimal setting, it wouldn't be used on those units, plain and simple.

Also, experience tells me that where SUTs are concerned one cannot get too bogged down with 'correct' impedance figures, as the rule books often go out the window when the acid listening tests are carried out.

A valid case in point is the original Ortofon SPU transformer Barry has loaned me for my SPU, that according to calculations, doesn't load the cartridge with anything like the impedance value which is technically optimal, according to the spec. Barry will be able to elaborate further and explain better here than I can.

And yet the transformer sounds fantastic with the SPU - and not because it's tailoring the sound in any way, but merely voicing it correctly to optimise its sonic characteristics!


The Zenon *should* be able to take a Decca, as the 100S does so beautifully. With a *modern* Decca in a suitable arm, you'll have drama right across the frequency range that ordinary cartridges haven't a clue about, you won't need a step-up - but you will need a phono stage with huge headroom - and when playing records you'll have such a silly smug grin on your face and pity the poor misguided saps who still rave about 103's and SPU's....... :lol:

Hehehe... Aye! ;)

Marco.

[Flyfisher]

Marco
Just out of interest what arms deliver the best results with Decca London carts, other than a Decca unipivot arm?
Thanks
Roger

[Marco]

Hi Roger,

Barry uses an SME 3009, amongst others, with his Deccas - and gets excellent results.

Deccas, however, are not my area of expertise, so may I suggest you direct your query either to Barry or 'Big Moog' (Jonathan Stanley) who are much more knowledgeable about such matters. hifi dave and DSJR are also another option :)

Marco.

[DSJR]

Seriously, may I respectfully suggest the use of a Deccapod style fixing on the lower caste models, as it tames the body and enables better coupling to the arm I feel. the Jubilee and London Reference are differant kettles of fish altogether and I have no experience of these, sadly.

The arm MUST be stable and reasonably free of resonance. The Hadcocks of old were a marriage made in heaven at the time and the NAS arms worked superbly too, my old Mentor mk1 arm I had being stable (with internal stabilisers to prevent wobble). The HR100S was superb with the Decca Export (Silver) I heard it with and I'm sure the Jelco 750 series will be great too with a touch of damping added (?).

My MicroScanner awaits :)

[Barry]

Marco
Just out of interest what arms deliver the best results with Decca London carts, other than a Decca unipivot arm?
Thanks
Roger


Though your query Roger is not addressed to me, I think I can help.

Most unipivot designs are good: the Keith Monks arm and the Hadcock arms, as these all have pivot damping. Can't comment on the Naim Aro, as I have no experience of it.

Basically any arm for which you can apply pivot damping will do; owing to the pitifully low vertical compliance (3.5cu) the Decca puts a lot of energy into the arm, and unless damped, will have a high amplitude LF resonance that will affect the bass response.

At the moment I'm listening to a Decca Gold (the Mk. VI), with elliptical tip fitted to an SME 3009/II arm with the FD200 damping dashpot. All Deccas are a pig to set up, and the set up is crucial. No other cartridge is, in my experience, as fussy to get right as a Decca. But when you do, no other cartridge can do what a Decca does. I'll be writing up my recent experience and set up details (both mechanical and electrical) shortly.

When my Decca goes off to "strut its stuff" for Marco, I may try out my Decca Blue (the Mk. V) with a conical stylus. I have two Decca arms: the ffss Super, fitted with magnetic bias (this arm uses conventional needle bearings), and the London International (which is a unipivot). Again I may use these, or if I'm feeling lazy, continue to use the SME.

Regards

[Flyfisher]

Barry

I have two quite different arms that I could use plugged straight into the MM input of my Art Audio Vinyl One phono stage:

Alpahason Xenon
or
12" Jelco (which can be damped, I believe)

Any preferences.

Thanks

Roger

[Barry]

Barry

I have two quite different arms that I could use plugged straight into the MM input of my Art Audio Vinyl One phono stage:

Alpahason Xenon
or
12" Jelco (which can be damped, I believe)

Any preferences.

Thanks

Roger

Hello Roger,

That's a tough call. As Dave has said, any arm used needs to be reasonably free of resonance and I have a lot of respect for the, now sadly defunct, Alphason HR100S. Your Alphason Xenon is a development of the HR100S, so ought to be OK, especially if it continued to use the superb ceramic ball bearings of the 100S.

I have set up my Decca in a Jelco headshell, loaned to me by Marco, so that he will be able to hear the cartridge in his own Jelco arm. I don't believe that one can apply damping to Jelco arms, but if the bearings are good enough (which I believe they are), then the 'excess energy' I spoke of, ought to be ducted through the arm and 'earthed', or dissipated, by the mass of your deck.

Suggest you wait until Marco has heard the Decca in his own (9") Jelco arm and reports his findings before you make a move. One thing I can tell you is that the most recent Decca's (or London's as they should now be called; i.e. those made by Peter Wright) will be a lot better behaved and less trouble than the older models.

Trust this is of some help.

Regards

[Marco]

Hi Barry,

Just a quick correction:


I don't believe that one can apply damping to Jelco arms....


Actually, the Jelco SA-750D ('D' for damping) is damped from a well in the top of the bearing housing, which thus provides the necessary pivot damping for the tonearm. When I bought the Jelco, I added the silicone fluid provided. Therefore, with this and its quality bearings, the Jelco should hopefully work well with the Decca :)

Marco.

[Barry]

Hi Barry,

Just a quick correction:



Actually, the Jelco SA-750D ('D' for damping) is damped from a well in the top of the bearing housing, which thus provides the necessary pivot damping for the tonearm. When I bought the Jelco, I added the silicone fluid provided. Therefore, with this and its quality bearings, the Jelco should hopefully work well with the Decca :)

Marco.

Ah! I didn't know that. Seems that your arm/turntable will provide a more than acceptable operating environment for the Decca. Will send it on to you shortly.

You do realise that you have now laid yourself open to writing a report on what you hear (in your system)? :eyebrows: In fact, I'm not sure if I'm going to report the set-up details for my Decca, until you have promised to report your findings! :lol:

Regards

[The Grand Wazoo]

In fact, I'm not sure if I'm going to report the set-up details for my Decca, until you have promised to report your findings! :lol:

Regards

That means nothing Barry, we always get promises. It's when the delivery fails that the nagging starts!!

[Barry]

That means nothing Barry, we always get promises. It's when the delivery fails that the nagging starts!!

One can but try!

Regards

[Batty]

Sorry to hijack, this is mainly aimed at Barry, how would a Decca cart go in my Townshend Elite Rock with a AO rewired RB250, presently I have 2 carts a Goldring 1042 and a Denon DL-110. Cheers.

[Marco]

Hi Barry,


Ah! I didn't know that. Seems that your arm/turntable will provide a more than acceptable operating environment for the Decca. Will send it on to you shortly.


Nice one - I look forward to it :)


You do realise that you have now laid yourself open to writing a report on what you hear (in your system)? In fact, I'm not sure if I'm going to report the set-up details for my Decca, until you have promised to report your findings!


Unfortunately, the reality is that I simply don't have the time for producing lengthy reports anymore of anything, in between running this place, my art business and having a life! ;)

However, I will honour my promise of writing the remainder of the D/D turntable shoot-out as soon as I can, and I will also offer some thoughts of the Decca when I've had a good listen to it, when I get time to post them. However, I'm afraid after the D/D shoot-out, that'll be it in terms of lengthy reviews. I trust that others and you understand and will respect this :cool:

Marco.

[Barry]

Understood!

The secret is not to promise anything - that way no-one becomes disappointed.

Unfortunately, I have already mentioned reporting on at least five subjects, so I am duty bound to deliver. I could just hope that nobody has remembered - but that would be unprofessional of me.

Regards

[Alex_UK]

Hello Roger, with all the thread drift (ahem! ;)) I don't appear to have said hello and welcomed you to AoS. So hello, and welcome to AoS! :)

[Barry]

Sorry to hijack, this is mainly aimed at Barry, how would a Decca cart go in my Townshend Elite Rock with a AO rewired RB250, presently I have 2 carts a Goldring 1042 and a Denon DL-110. Cheers.

Hello Steve,

To be honest I can't really say. The RB250 is a well regarded arm and has good bearings but I have no experience of using a Decca in one.

Sorry, I'm unable to offer you any advice on this.

Regards

[Marco]

Understood!

The secret is not to promise anything - that way no-one becomes disappointed.


Indeed, but people should also appreciate that sometimes life gets in the way of one's best intentions....!

Also, when I do something, I do it right - and that takes time. I don't just scribble down any old bollocks which lacks substance.


Unfortunately, I have already mentioned reporting on at least five subjects, so I am duty bound to deliver. I could just hope that nobody has remembered - but that would be unprofessional of me.


Thing is, you're retired and so have plenty of time on your hands to do these things. I'm only semi-retired, and so not quite a man of leisure yet! ;)

Marco.

[Barry]

Indeed, but people should also appreciate that sometimes life gets in the way of one's best intentions....!

Also, when I do something, I do it right - and that takes time. I don't just scribble down any old bollocks without substance.



Thing is, you're retired and so have plenty of time on your hands to do these things. I'm only semi-retired, and so not quite a man of leisure yet! ;)

Marco.

Ah! - maybe that would be the way out of my self-imposed work load. :lol:

Regards

[The Grand Wazoo]

Hello Steve,

To be honest I can't really say. The RB250 is a well regarded arm and has good bearings but I have no experience of using a Decca in one.

Sorry, I'm unable to offer you any advice on this.

Regards

I have almost no experience of Deccas, but some of the times I have heard them have included the use of The Rock - including 2 demos by Max Townsend himself (who couldn't have been more enthusiastic about Deccas if he'd tried). I may be wrong, but I'd think that arm combination would be fine with the Rock's trough in place, surely any nasties are going to be sorted with that?

[Barry]

I have almost no experience of Deccas, but some of the times I have heard them have included the use of The Rock - including 2 demos by Max Townsend himself (who couldn't have been more enthusiastic about Deccas if he'd tried). I may be wrong, but I'd think that arm combination would be fine with the Rock's trough in place, surely any nasties are going to be sorted with that?

Hi Chris,

Does the Rock come fitted with a Rega arm as standard, and does the headshell of the Rega arm engage with the damping trough? If it does, then that would seem to offer a workable environment for the Decca.

I'd forgotten that Max Townsend was a Decca enthusiast.

Regards

[The Grand Wazoo]

At the time I'm talking of, it came without arm, but the Regas were commonly sold with them if you couldn't afford the Excaliber. You got an adapter plate that had the paddle on one end. This was bolted to the headshell with the cartridge.

I believe the latest version of the Rock has a Rega based arm on it (but modified almost beyond recognition).

http://townshendaudio.com/home/images/stories/therockv/Townshendexcalibur.jpg

This is an adapter on a Rega, all mounted on a recent Rock. The old adapter only had one layer.

http://www.audioelevation.co.uk/userfiles/Townshend%20Rock%207%20trough.jpg

[Marco]

I think the Rock with a suitably damped arm (the front trough arrangement on the Rock is the best there is in that respect) would be a superb partner for a Decca.

I'm not the biggest fan of Rega tonearms, but there are other variables at play in this instance which I supect will overcome its sonic limitations.

Regarding the Rock's Rega-modified tonearm, it looks more like Fireball XL5!


oboly57qxjg


Or an Eagle from Space 1999:


http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/3509/space1999sm.jpg (http://img682.imageshack.us/i/space1999sm.jpg/)



http://townshendaudio.com/home/images/stories/therockv/Townshendexcalibur.jpg

WOOOSSSHHH!! :eyebrows:

Marco.

[Batty]

I am hanging out for an excalibur, I have the paddle arrangement for my RB250, I must post pics up somewhere I really must take some first though.

[DSJR]

Hi Dave,



Indeed. Neither is there much point when the vinyl concerned has been cut from a digital master, so all you're doing is reproducing that information by adding more distortion!

Vinyl does come into its own though, sonically, when recordings have been made from an analogue master and most of the recording chain is analogue-based.



Yup, I'd go with that, but there are other differences too, as I outlined in my previous post.



I mostly agree. There are some genuinely superb hi-end cartridges out there, which get you closer to 'the truth', but by and large most flatter to decieve, where one can achieve the same performance (or indeed sometimes better) from a cartridge with a less 'desirable badge', and in turn less exorbitant price tag.

However, I disagree with your "what wire was used in the cutting head?" remark. It's not about replicating the ancillaries used in the recording studio; it's about faithfully replicating their sonic effect on music reproduced. Therefore whatever wires, silver or otherwise, best achieve that, in conjunction with the overall sonic accuracy of the cartridge, in a system, is by definition the 'best wire'. *That* is what hi-fi is about.



You're entitled to your opinion, Dave, and I understand where you're coming from, but from considerable experience of using 103s in a multitude of set-ups, I totally disagree.

The fact is, both Denon's own SUTs (designed to partner the 103) and the A23, load it at 100 Ohms (or just over), so if that
wasn't the optimal setting, it wouldn't be used on those units, plain and simple.

Also, experience tells me that where SUTs are concerned one cannot get too bogged down with 'correct' impedance figures, as the rule books often go out the window when the acid listening tests are carried out.

A valid case in point is the original Ortofon SPU transformer Barry has loaned me for my SPU, that according to calculations, doesn't load the cartridge with anything like the impedance value which is technically optimal, according to the spec. Barry will be able to elaborate further and explain better here than I can.

And yet the transformer sounds fantastic with the SPU - and not because it's tailoring the sound in any way, but merely voicing it correctly to optimise its sonic characteristics!



Hehehe... Aye! ;)

Marco.



Late reply marco, but I think you (and I a little) have pretty well sewn it up regarding the 103/AT mc differences and it really is a matter of taste as to which one may prefer. I still reckon that a well sorted Decca may have the best of both, but they are cussed things (certainly the standard "Decca London" based ones, deccapodded or not) and need careful treatment if coils aren't to come loose etc. My own sounded wonderful and suddenly went "off," guitar and sustained keyboard notes having a background "buzz" to them. I thought it was the Mentor arm and this was a catalyst in selling the whole turntable, but sixteen years or more on, it was the Decca doing the nasties that Decca's can, and back then, the experts on restoring them were rather hidden and the current Jubilee and Reference hadn't appeared as I remember..

[Marco]

Hi Dave,

I think you've done more than your fair share too of nailing the differences between those respective cartridges, and you've done it very well :)

However, it was the following bit I was more interested in what you thought:


However, I disagree with your "what wire was used in the cutting head?" remark. It's not about replicating the ancillaries used in the recording studio; it's about faithfully replicating their sonic effect on music reproduced. Therefore whatever wires, silver or otherwise, best achieve that, in conjunction with the overall sonic accuracy of the cartridge, in a system, is by definition the 'best wire'. *That* is what hi-fi is about.

You're entitled to your opinion, Dave, and I understand where you're coming from, but from considerable experience of using 103s in a multitude of set-ups, I totally disagree.

The fact is, both Denon's own SUTs (designed to partner the 103) and the A23, load it at 100 Ohms (or just over), so if that
wasn't the optimal setting, it wouldn't be used on those units, plain and simple.

Also, experience tells me that where SUTs are concerned one cannot get too bogged down with 'correct' impedance figures, as the rule books often go out the window when the acid listening tests are carried out.

A valid case in point is the original Ortofon SPU transformer Barry has loaned me for my SPU, that according to calculations, doesn't load the cartridge with anything like the impedance value which is technically optimal, according to the spec. Barry will be able to elaborate further and explain better here than I can.

And yet the transformer sounds fantastic with the SPU - and not because it's tailoring the sound in any way, but merely voicing it correctly to optimise its sonic characteristics!


Therefore, I'd appreciate your views on the points I've made above :cool:

Marco.

[DSJR]

Fireball XL5 indeed :D I left my toddlerhood behind watching that on our first TV (OK, I have a few bought videos too with my heart set on the "B&W Box Set" of DVD's at some point.....).

I'm not sure I can anser or comment much on your findings. If the cartridge has an output impedance of 40 Ohms, than it would be naturally assumed to need 400 - 500 Ohms on the input impedance to "properly match" it. However, there may be other things going on which dictate 100 Ohms or so, but I don't have the means to test my shaky theory ;)

All I can add is that many old MM's seem to work better with a different loading to the regular 47K, rather than just slapping loads of capacitance on them. Lower caste Decca's (yes, them things again) seem to like 39K as I remember and I suspect the Quad 33's choice of 68K wasn't done just to be awkward, as it may flatten out some of the "sucked out" cartridges of that era (I'm thinking of my B&O SP12, the Empire 999/1000 series and the 681EEE I have, rather than Shures, which NEEDED tons of capacitance back then, or ADC's which are pretty neutral mostly.

[hifi_dave]

Hello Roger,

Just to say, that no rudeness or sarcasm was intended: I was just following up your recent posts here:

http://theartofsound.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6462&page=10 (post 91)

and on ‘pinkfishmedia’:

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1107718 ,

the latter, which incidentally, was answered in a similar manner by ‘hi-fi dave’.

You clearly have an excellent turntable and arm(s), so to answer your query concerning the Lyra Delos cartridge: this has a coil resistance of 8.2Ω, so either of the ‘4’ or ‘15’ settings on ‘The Head’ SUT ought to be suitable.

http://www.lyraconnoisseur.com/Products/Products_Analog/Delos/Delos4.html

There are no hard and fast rules here; the use of SUTs is a bit of a grey area, so try both settings and see which you prefer. In general moving coil cartridges like to be loaded with at least 10x their coil resistance.





In future, if you could be a little less demanding, then these ‘misunderstandings’ might not occur.

Regards

On PFM, I did start to reply but was met with a touch of abrasiveness which deterred me from posting further.

[Flyfisher]

Barry
http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii46/flyfisher_album/G99/th_2010_0718_101146.jpg (http://s261.photobucket.com/albums/ii46/flyfisher_album/G99/?action=view&current=2010_0718_101146.jpg)

As you can see I have now mounted the Xenon arm on my SP10 with the AT33PTG cartridge.

This has demonstrated the qualities of the SP10 v the Lenco G99, and then I tried the AT33PTG through the TX4 SUT.

I tried all three settings 40/15/4 Ohms, the 40 sounded a bit lifeless and both the 15 & 4 Ohm both worked well and in the end I settled on the 4 Ohm.

It states that the coil impedance of this cart is 17 Ohm so I would have expected the 15 Ohm to be better, but the 4 Ohm setting gave the music loads of drive. Currently listening to Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique and with all this attack can't wait to sample a Mahler symphony.

Not sure how the rules on SUTs work, and why I should prefer the 4 Ohm setting?

Thanks

Roger

[Marco]

Hi Roger,

Any chance we could see a separate (bigger) picture of your T/T, rather than just what's on your avatar? :)

It looks impressive!

Marco.

[Flyfisher]

Try double clicking your mouse right button on the picture.

It is not my avatar, just the way photobucket seems to do them on forums unless I have changed some setting myself?

This is an SP10 in an Iroko plinth I made with a AO 12" PU7 and now an Xenon arm.

I think the AT33PTG sounds better through the TX4 into the Vinyl One MM input than through the Vinyl One MC input.

The TX4 is quite some step up.

[Marco]

Sorry, it just looked like your avatar at first glance!

I meant you to show it as an instant bigger picture like this (uploaded via Imageshack):


http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/4192/20100718101146.jpg (http://img686.imageshack.us/i/20100718101146.jpg/)


I bet that sounds very good indeed!! What a beautiful plinth.... :youtheman:

Marco.