Differential in sound quality between turntable and digital - Old Linn system

[BDD]

I’m running an active Linn system - Linn Karik with old Majik1, 2 x LK100s and pair of Keilidhs. Lovely, full, detailed sound with just the right amount of bass. I’ve also got a Linn Basik turntable with Akito arm on this system. Currently using an Audio Technica VM95EN cart. The turntable sound is quite disappointing - markedly less detailed than digital, but still retains quite a full sound - maybe slightly more so than the CD player. I appreciate that one needs to spend quite a bit on a turntable to equal digital but the difference is quite stark. Setup is all ok as far as I can see. Is it likely that I am missing something obvious or should I just manage my expectation with what is a budget end t/t?


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[Pigmy Pony]

Good morning Brian, The Linn t/t could probably be bettered without spending too much, or maybe you could try some other phono stages, which again may not cost the earth.

[BDD]

Good morning Brian, The Linn t/t could probably be bettered without spending too much, or maybe you could try some other phono stages, which again may not cost the earth.

Thanks PP - I’ll have a think about that.


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[walpurgis]

How old is the stylus? A bit of wear can make for a dull sound, won't do the records much good either.

[DiveDeepDog]

The Linn Basik was hardly a step up from Rega 3 at the time, Systemdeck iix/Manticore Mantra/Ariston RD 80 was more of a step towards the LP12 so there are alternatives.

Personally, the moment I heard a (Lenco) idler (I was pimping a Mantra) I knew nothing else would do, but the answer as always is try to hear alternatives for yourself, not so easy ATM...

[BDD]

How old is the stylus? A bit of wear can make for a dull sound, won't do the records much good either.

It’s brand new.


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[BDD]

The Linn Basik was hardly a step up from Rega 3 at the time, Systemdeck iix/Manticore Mantra/Ariston RD 80 was more of a step towards the LP12 so there are alternatives.

Personally, the moment I heard a (Lenco) idler (I was pimping a Mantra) I knew nothing else would do, but the answer as always is try to hear alternatives for yourself, not so easy ATM...

Sure. I looked at a couple of Aristons online too but difficult to try them.......my hearing is not good either so that is likely to be a contributory factor!


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[graham67]

To my ears, vinyl sounds a whole lot better than digital, but its taken a decent wedge to get there. And unlike digital which rewards some initial investment but quickly hits a ceiling, vinyl replay will always reward further upgrades, tinkering and expense....
As alluded to above, the type of deck has an enormous influence on the presentation. So as suggested listen to some decks to get a feel on what you like, belt drive, direct drive idler all sound different then there is suspended, solid and that is before you factor in arm, cart, phono stage....
All good fun but be prepared to take a while before you achieve sonic nirvana....

[BDD]

To my ears, vinyl sounds a whole lot better than digital, but its taken a decent wedge to get there. And unlike digital which rewards some initial investment but quickly hits a ceiling, vinyl replay will always reward further upgrades, tinkering and expense....
As alluded to above, the type of deck has an enormous influence on the presentation. So as suggested listen to some decks to get a feel on what you like, belt drive, direct drive idler all sound different then there is suspended, solid and that is before you factor in arm, cart, phono stage....
All good fun but be prepared to take a while before you achieve sonic nirvana....

That’s a good summary! I’ll think on.


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[Audio Al]

I’m running an active Linn system - Linn Karik with old Majik1, 2 x LK100s and pair of Keilidhs. Lovely, full, detailed sound with just the right amount of bass. I’ve also got a Linn Basik turntable with Akito arm on this system. Currently using an Audio Technica VM95EN cart. The turntable sound is quite disappointing - markedly less detailed than digital, but still retains quite a full sound - maybe slightly more so than the CD player. I appreciate that one needs to spend quite a bit on a turntable to equal digital but the difference is quite stark. Setup is all ok as far as I can see. Is it likely that I am missing something obvious or should I just manage my expectation with what is a budget end t/t?


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:hmm: Hum , now that takes some thinking about :scratch: very unusual for a well set up vinyl system to be that bad

[Pigmy Pony]

:hmm: Hum , now that takes some thinking about :scratch: very unusual for a well set up vinyl system to be that bad

I agree, and wonder if the problem is elsewhere - can you not borrow a phono stage (doesn't have to be expensive), and try it into one of the line level inputs? I'm assuming your amp has it's own phono input.

[Jac Hawk]

We all know that built in phono stages are crap even on quite expensive amps, so as others have said trying a separate phono stage would be your 1st point of call, other things to check are the cartridge alignment and VTF and make sure the stylus is clean and not covered in crud

[Pigmy Pony]

We all know that built in phono stages are crap even on quite expensive amps, so as others have said trying a separate phono stage would be your 1st point of call, other things to check are the cartridge alignment and VTF and make sure the stylus is clean and not covered in crud

True, I used to have a Musical Fidelity amp, and the phono stage was pretty grim, although the amp cost four times that of the preceding Cyrus 1. I think sometimes the phono stage on amps of a certain age was just a bit of an afterthought.

Mike, while you're on here, are you up for receiving a visit this afternoon? I seem to have lost your mobile number

[walpurgis]

Not always though. The phono stage in my Forte Model 2 pre-amp was great and the one in my VTL Deluxe is bloomin' amazing :).

[BDD]

Thanks folks. I’m using an old Linn Majik1 integrated amp (but only as a preamp as I’m using two activ LK100s) . I might investigate another phono stage. I might also look at a ‘proper’ preamp of a similar vintage, ie a Wakonda or indeed Kairn. I will stress my hearing is not great with h/f being quite problematic! I also tried two different pressings of the same lp. The 2018 remaster was a bit better than the original 1980 pressing. It’s a brand new cartridge/stylus so I can rule that out, but I will recalibrate it with a protractor.


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[CageyH]

A better stylus would probably help as well. Rather than the elliptical nude, something like the ML or SH would give you more detail.

[Pigmy Pony]

I will stress my hearing is not great with h/f being quite problematic!

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Not to worry, most of us on here are deaf as a post. With the exception of Marco, he has ears like a bat. Looks like one too. I probably should have whispered that last bit :D

[BDD]

Not to worry, most of us on here are deaf as a post. With the exception of Marco, he has ears like a bat. Looks like one too. I probably should have whispered that last bit :D

[emoji1787][emoji1787]


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[BDD]

A better stylus would probably help as well. Rather than the elliptical nude, something like the ML or SH would give you more detail.

Thanks - I’ll look at that further[emoji106]


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[bumpy]

And unlike digital which rewards some initial investment but quickly hits a ceiling

Well my digital system has no ceiling. :)

[AJSki2fly]

I’m running an active Linn system - Linn Karik with old Majik1, 2 x LK100s and pair of Keilidhs. Lovely, full, detailed sound with just the right amount of bass. I’ve also got a Linn Basik turntable with Akito arm on this system. Currently using an Audio Technica VM95EN cart. The turntable sound is quite disappointing - markedly less detailed than digital, but still retains quite a full sound - maybe slightly more so than the CD player. I appreciate that one needs to spend quite a bit on a turntable to equal digital but the difference is quite stark. Setup is all ok as far as I can see. Is it likely that I am missing something obvious or should I just manage my expectation with what is a budget end t/t?


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I had a read of the thread and not knowing the Linn Majik1 personally looked for some pointers on the net came across this from What-HiFi review " the Majik-I isn't so skilful at delivering very low-level detail or the natural richness in a recording. Even a full-bodied disc such as the first The Lord of the Rings OST sounds overly dry and just a little clipped. There isn't he space, low-level detail or bass power we'd expect at this price." now this could be due to the power side of the amp and I take note that you are using it as a Pre-amp, but some aspect may be due to the pre-amp side. I cannot find anything about the SQ of it built in Phono Stage, but there is a board upgrade from Linn for MM/MC which implies it can be improved on and then support MC as well.

My view would be to initially borrow a reasonable Phono stage and try it and see if there is an improvement, there was a Cambridge 541on sale here for only £65, it cheap as ships and they are good. If you get no improvement then try another cartridge or mew stylus as others have said and make sure it is set up correctly, there here are several thread on here on this on VTF and VTA. If you still have no joy then I would suggest you try an borrow a pre-amp or home demo one and see if solved.

I hope that helps.

[BDD]

I had a read of the thread and not knowing the Linn Majik1 personally looked for some pointers on the net came across this from What-HiFi review " the Majik-I isn't so skilful at delivering very low-level detail or the natural richness in a recording. Even a full-bodied disc such as the first The Lord of the Rings OST sounds overly dry and just a little clipped. There isn't he space, low-level detail or bass power we'd expect at this price." now this could be due to the power side of the amp and I take note that you are using it as a Pre-amp, but some aspect may be due to the pre-amp side. I cannot find anything about the SQ of it built in Phono Stage, but there is a board upgrade from Linn for MM/MC which implies it can be improved on and then support MC as well.

My view would be to initially borrow a reasonable Phono stage and try it and see if there is an improvement, there was a Cambridge 541on sale here for only £65, it cheap as ships and they are good. If you get no improvement then try another cartridge or mew stylus as others have said and make sure it is set up correctly, there here are several thread on here on this on VTF and VTA. If you still have no joy then I would suggest you try an borrow a pre-amp or home demo one and see if solved.

I hope that helps.

Thanks, most helpful.


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[BDD]

Deleted - duplicate post.

[BDD]

I had a read of the thread and not knowing the Linn Majik1 personally looked for some pointers on the net came across this from What-HiFi review " the Majik-I isn't so skilful at delivering very low-level detail or the natural richness in a recording. Even a full-bodied disc such as the first The Lord of the Rings OST sounds overly dry and just a little clipped. There isn't he space, low-level detail or bass power we'd expect at this price." now this could be due to the power side of the amp and I take note that you are using it as a Pre-amp, but some aspect may be due to the pre-amp side. I cannot find anything about the SQ of it built in Phono Stage, but there is a board upgrade from Linn for MM/MC which implies it can be improved on and then support MC as well.

My view would be to initially borrow a reasonable Phono stage and try it and see if there is an improvement, there was a Cambridge 541on sale here for only £65, it cheap as ships and they are good. If you get no improvement then try another cartridge or mew stylus as others have said and make sure it is set up correctly, there here are several thread on here on this on VTF and VTA. If you still have no joy then I would suggest you try an borrow a pre-amp or home demo one and see if solved.

I hope that helps.

I’ve found a cambridge audio azure 551p for sale for not much....I wonder if it’s worth a punt?


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[walpurgis]

I’ve found a cambridge audio azure 551p for sale for not much....I wonder if it’s worth a punt?

If it's cheap go for it.

[AJSki2fly]

I’ve found a cambridge audio azure 551p for sale for not much....I wonder if it’s worth a punt?


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Yes definitely

[Clive197]

IMO it’s the cartridge. Can you use a MC cartridge which would give a smoother SQ, if so try a model from Audio Technica or Ortofon or even a Hana SL.
If a a MC is not possible you would need a better stylus for your current MM cartridge.

[BDD]

IMO it’s the cartridge. Can you use a MC cartridge which would give a smoother SQ, if so try a model from Audio Technica or Ortofon or even a Hana SL.
If a a MC is not possible you would need a better stylus for your current MM cartridge.

Food for thought there - thanks. I thought that the new Audio Technica VM95EN was a reasonable quality cart? I’ll do a bit more research. I guess fundamentally speaking the limiting factor will be the ‘basik’ turntable but I’m not getting into LP12 territory just yet with a rampaging toddler and another coming up through the ranks!


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[BDD]

Looks like a choice between a Cambridge Audio 551p or 640p - the latter has no on/off button but is MM and MC. The former is MM only. I think that the 640p is an older model but may be ‘better’ spec. Any thoughts welcome - sorry for all the questions, it’s been a great help this thread.


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[AJSki2fly]

Food for thought there - thanks. I thought that the new Audio Technica VM95EN was a reasonable quality cart? I’ll do a bit more research. I guess fundamentally speaking the limiting factor will be the ‘basik’ turntable but I’m not getting into LP12 territory just yet with a rampaging toddler and another coming up through the ranks!


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Hi Brian, I did not realise from your first post that the AT cartridge was new, and you are quite correct is is a decent cartridge. Did you fit it or did a dealer?

Anyway if it is a different cartridge from what was previously on the arm then the set up might not be quite right for VTA, VTF and Azimuth, all of which are critical to sound quality. Have a read of https://zstereo.co.uk/2016/05/24/linn-basik/ in this review there are some important points about getting the best out of the Basik by isolating it, also the set up of the arm in the manual may help if you don't have the manual https://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/images/f/fa/Basik_tt_user_manl.PDF, in case you don't have this. If you need advise on Vertical Tracking Angle with the Audio Technica VM95EN, I am sure one or two on here can advise. Vertical Tracking force you can check with a cartridge simple tracking gauge.

As it is a fixed head shell on the arm setting up Azimuth is not so easy if it is not correct. A simple way to checkout is correct is to get a test record with a 300hz Azimuth test track like the HiFi Answers one and when you play that track you can measure the decibel level coming from each speaker using a dB meter on a mobile phone, (SPLnFFT is a free one and is good) the level should be identical from each (you need to hold the phone about 1 foot in front of each speaker, in front of the mid range driver).

Apologies in advance if you have already done or checked all this stuff.

[walpurgis]

Looks like a choice between a Cambridge Audio 551p or 640p - the latter has no on/off button but is MM and MC. The former is MM only. I think that the 640p is an older model but may be ‘better’ spec. Any thoughts welcome - sorry for all the questions, it’s been a great help this thread.

They are both fine for the money they usually fetch. Not the ultimate obviously, but better than some other options.

[StingRay]

I’ve found a cambridge audio azure 551p for sale for not much....I wonder if it’s worth a punt?


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Yes well worth it. If you don't need it, it will be easy to sell on. But if it's the one I saw I think it has gone now.

[BDD]

Hi Brian, I did not realise from your first post that the AT cartridge was new, and you are quite correct is is a decent cartridge. Did you fit it or did a dealer?

Anyway if it is a different cartridge from what was previously on the arm then the set up might not be quite right for VTA, VTF and Azimuth, all of which are critical to sound quality. Have a read of https://zstereo.co.uk/2016/05/24/linn-basik/ in this review there are some important points about getting the best out of the Basik by isolating it, also the set up of the arm in the manual may help if you don't have the manual https://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/images/f/fa/Basik_tt_user_manl.PDF, in case you don't have this. If you need advise on Vertical Tracking Angle with the Audio Technica VM95EN, I am sure one or two on here can advise. Vertical Tracking force you can check with a cartridge simple tracking gauge.

As it is a fixed head shell on the arm setting up Azimuth is not so easy if it is not correct. A simple way to checkout is correct is to get a test record with a 300hz Azimuth test track like the HiFi Answers one and when you play that track you can measure the decibel level coming from each speaker using a dB meter on a mobile phone, (SPLnFFT is a free one and is good) the level should be identical from each (you need to hold the phone about 1 foot in front of each speaker, in front of the mid range driver).

Apologies in advance if you have already done or checked all this stuff.

Thanks so much for all those bits and pieces. I will follow those up!


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[BDD]

I’ve bought a Cambridge Audio Azur 551p. It will be interesting to hear how this compares with the phono in the Linn Majik1 amplifier.

I’ve got a further question! As I’ve mentioned, the Majik1 is an old Linn integrated amp but is now only being used as a pre amp in an active system. On the power side I have two LK100 amps on bass and treble.

To bypass the existing phono stage in the Majik1, is it simply a case of plugging the external phono stage into aux 1 on the Majik? Thanks again.

[AJSki2fly]

I’ve bought a Cambridge Audio Azur 551p. It will be interesting to hear how this compares with the phono in the Linn Majik1 amplifier.

I’ve got a further question! As I’ve mentioned, the Majik1 is an old Linn integrated amp but is now only being used as a pre amp in an active system. On the power side I have two LK100 amps on bass and treble.

To bypass the existing phono stage in the Majik1, is it simply a case of plugging the external phono stage into aux 1 on the Majik? Thanks again.

With respect to the LK100s it sound like you have one driving the treble part of each loudspeaker and the other the bass drivers of each speaker. I have not considered doing this it is more usual to use one amp for each channel.

If your aux1 is a normal line input then this what you would connect the external phono stage to.


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[Pigmy Pony]

If you have inputs on the pre amp that say 'tuner' or 'CD', either of those will do.

[BDD]

Many thanks, that makes sense.


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[Pharos]

A friend recently bought a pair of benchmark AHB2s to use on a pair of JBL k"s, and used one amp for the tweeters on each and the other for the woofer sections.

I made the point that the tweeter driving amp was probably doing a lot less work than the woofer driving amp, and suggested that he use one complete amp per side.

This would place an equal demand on the power supplies of each amp, tweeters using much less power than woofers.

He was surprised at this suggestion, but I recently came across an article which defined the methods as vertical, and horizontal, and it recommended the latter. It also shortens the speaker cables.

[BDD]

A friend recently bought a pair of benchmark AHB2s to use on a pair of JBL k"s, and used one amp for the tweeters on each and the other for the woofer sections.

I made the point that the tweeter driving amp was probably doing a lot less work than the woofer driving amp, and suggested that he use one complete amp per side.

This would place an equal demand on the power supplies of each amp, tweeters using much less power than woofers.

He was surprised at this suggestion, but I recently came across an article which defined the methods as vertical, and horizontal, and it recommended the latter. It also shortens the speaker cables.

Interesting, thanks. The Linn set up uses an active circuit card - a treble card and a bass card - and each is placed in separate amps. I don’t think there would be a way to configure differently as one amp will have to serve the woofer in both speakers and the other amp the treble.


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[BDD]

I managed to source a Cambridge Audio 551p to see how this compares to the phono stage in the Majik1. It was interesting - the 551p has a slightly thinner sound with less emphasis on bass. Perhaps ok on detail and maybe a tad more treble. On balance, I do not think it offers an improvement on the Majik1. The Majik certainly has a richer, fuller sound with a notable emphasis on decay. I may try it on another system I have in another room to see if it offers anything different there. It may well end up in classifieds soon but it was an interesting comparison. I will probably upgrade from the Majik1 to something like a Wakonda at some point.


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[Pete The Cat]

Lest we forget, the Linn Karik with which the deck is being compared was a top flight CD player in its day, so the difference is perhaps unsurprising.

[BDD]

Lest we forget, the Linn Karik with which the deck is being compared was a top flight CD player in its day, so the difference is perhaps unsurprising.

That’s a very good point. I should have said that the Karik is in for repair and I was actually using a Marantz 6000 KI signature - impressive for the money. I did actually spend a bit more time fettling with the tonearm too, which may have helped. All an interesting learning curve.


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